 Mae'r ystod yma yn ymbyrch i'w cymryd yn deall hynny'n i'ch gael gweithio'r ddefnyddio'r hynny i'r cyd-dyniaeth i dyn nhw'n gychwyn o'ch cyd-dyniaeth cyd-dyniaeth, yma, yn cyd-dyniaeth sy'n cyd-dyniaeth gyda'r cyd-dyniaeth ond, mae'n cyd-dyniaeth yn cyd-dyniaeth yn cyd-dyniaeth, mae'n cyd-dyniaeth i'w cyd-dyniaeth yn cyd-dyniaeth The Commissioner for Internal Security and Home Affairs, Samuel Arwan, who confirmed both incidents, said security agencies reported the attack to the state government, noting that the injured worshippers were taken to the hospital. He said the attack was condemned by the governor, Nasser El-Rufai. Well, joining us to discuss this is Joseph Hyab, he's the Secretary General for the Christian Association of Nigeria, Cannes in Caduna State. Revan Hyab, I do not know if I can say it's really good to see you, or it's on a sour note that we have to say good evening to each other. Thank you very much. I'm actually the chairman of Cannes Caduna State, so that our viewers will know the difference. Apologies for that. Well, so, I mean, I'm almost at a loss for words when we have to have these conversations, because I think we're having too many of them. You know, almost every month we have to have a conversation on Caduna State. And recently the state was having an event of sorts which is asking for people to come and invest in Caduna State. But then we're seeing many more cases of insecurity in Caduna State. And I'm wondering, is this not a bad picture or a bad advertisement of sorts that we're sending to people who are asking to invest in the state? And it's not just about banditry, we're having all forms of insecurity. And now it's going into places of worship. As the Christian Association of Nigeria, I know that you're not the government, you may not be able to have answers to all my questions. But what advocacy are you pushing for security, not just for schools, that you can also have in your places of worship and not just in churches but also in mosques? Well, thank you very much for having me on this programme. And thank you for your show of consign about what is going on in Caduna. But as you've rightly said, we recently hosted a very important investment summit. But just few days after, we on our own again, we are coming with stories as if we do not even want investors to come. But to get to make viewers know exactly what is happening. I think there's a mix up about this story. This whole story, there was no church that was attacked yesterday in Caduna. What happened is that it's a community of Christians, so gone men came into that community after church service, not in church. They didn't meet the people in church, the people had even dispersed and went home. They kidnapped 27 people and as they were trying to get out of that community with them, someone who is a Christian was coming into that community on knowing what was happening. Then he was asking questions and the gone men opened fire on him. I feel the commissioner on security didn't do enough search and went out to give such a story that is big today in Nigeria. It's not true. There was no church that was attacked. The real community that were attacked and people were killed is in Kaurau Local Government. We know that over 40-something people were killed last night. But this story that is all over Nigeria today is uncalled for, has no reason. But we've just realized that it's another pattern of our government to always come up with stories, to scare people, to always come up with a story, to whip sentiment, to always because the way and manner he presented the story is that he was commiserating with Equa. And Equa never even knew anything about it. So why would you think that Samuel Aaron, the commissioner for security would want to paint this picture as opposed to what you have said? I don't know what he intends to gain. This is not the first time. There was a time he came out and said that bandits had went to a school in Ikara to keep up students and security men how to repel them. And nothing like that ever happened. So I think it's already a business that some of us don't even understand. Because what I did yesterday was when this story came out, I reached out to virtually every... The system we have is that we have cairn at local government, we have cairn at zonal levels, we have cairn in local communities. So once there's a problem in the community, they will pass it to the zonal level and the zone will pass it to the local government and the local government will send it to us in the state. Nobody could pin down this story. Since Equa was involved, I called the Equa headquarters. We keep talking with Equa headquarters till three o'clock this afternoon before we understand that this story has nothing to do with the church building. And why I'm saying this, emphasizing it, is what exactly do they want to achieve by bringing such kind of story that the church was attacked? Caught me, there was no church that was attacked yesterday. The attack that happened in Cardona city yesterday was actually kidnappers that kidnapped a community, not in the church. They were not during service. And as they were going, this man that you learned that was killed was actually a visitor coming into the community and just fall a victim and was gone down, but not in the church. It has nothing to do with church. Yes, he is an Equa member, but it was not in the church. So government must not be confusing us. I called the PPR of the police yesterday night. I challenged him to verify this story. I called him again this afternoon. I challenged him and he said, look, when he was actually the one who called me and he realized that I didn't know, then he knew that something was wrong with that story. So there's no way something will happen to a church and Cairn is not aware since we have a structure that we can confirm. Some are going to take us back to that church. Let us go and see that church. Let us know the church that was attacked. I think they owe us an apology to come out and tell people such kind of story when nothing actually happened. When I read on many pages of newspaper today and I just realized how difficult it is. When we have serious issues that they have felt to tackle and they are bringing stories that do not even exist. What are these serious issues that you think that the government of El Refai has refused to tackle? I am aware that our children, Kibnab on the 5th of July, have not yet all come back. As I said yesterday, 10 were released more and we still have 11. Imagine children in a Kibnab den for 82 days. Children, not adults, children. What do you expect the government to do? Because they seem to be in between a rock and a hard place. Let us not forget that the governor had also publicly said that he was opposed to paying up ransom to free everybody that was abducted. For those of us who know, sometimes when we hear it from you media, we just laugh at it. Because the reality is that he was the first governor who came out publicly and said, and I quote, on one of the national television that he had to even follow gunmen to some part of Africa or some West African countries and pay them money. And he said that if there was any way people can advise him that he should do that to stop the killing. So why suddenly this change of God? But of course he is a human being. Isn't he allowed a change of heart? Probably he realized he made a mistake. Of course he is a human being and has a change of heart. And that's why he decided to take a step back. At the time he did not understand. It's clear. We have never and will never require that our governor should negotiate with bandits. Because we know if our government negotiate with bandits, it will be difficult. It will be bad for all of us. What we demand from government is one. She has sworn to protect lives and properties. If she do that, this banditry we are seeing, this killing we are seeing will not happen. I have ever said this and I want to repeat that the betterment of this high school is just five kilometers away from the NNPC. If federal government on NNPC cannot be protected by government 15 to 20 to 30 kilometers away from that place. And this kind of evil can happen five kilometers to NNPC. It tells a lot about the security situation we are in. It tells a lot about the leaf service we are giving to security. It tells a lot about the policies we bring into security. And we are not just honest. We are simply saying that if there is an incident cross check it and get the right fact. Don't just jump. Because today in Cardona we are being governed by media statements. Someone is just sitting down and passed media statement. And everybody just check it as if it is true. And we get confused. People sometimes call us and put us under fear. We learn that no, yes, killing is going on in Cardona. We are not disputing it. But this particular story I want to repeat. They were misinformed and they actually went out to the press without constricting the facts about this story. As much as we know that several insecurity issues have cropped up in fact for a time there. I actually thought that Cardona had become a playing field for these bandits. But then can in collaboration with other CSOs or Christian organizations, there be PFN or the enlarge forum where you have the Christians and the Muslims, all as stakeholders. Yes, we know that you have issues with how government is addressing the issue of insecurity. But has there been some form of a handshake across the table between you and the government? Has there been a forum where a conversation is being had with the government as to the way forward as to how these issues can be best handled? Because it's one thing to criticise the government. It's one thing to scrimad the government. But it's another to see how you can work with them to put an end to this insecurity. Has that been done? So many groups are putting a lot of efforts to help this government in addressing insecurity. But sadly, this government is a government that seems to be proud herself. She knows everything. She can do everything. She understands everything. And every time she just go out to the public and accuse people just like that, but the reality is that nothing is being done to tackle security. What they just do is simply to go always on media, rush to give information that are not correct, rush to instigate people against one another, rush to paint a picture that does not exist. But when there is a true crime, when there is a true security breach that is happening, they will turn their face away. That's why some of us in Kaduna are so worried. What exactly? What kind of leadership are we getting? Are we being governed by media? Is it just a story of media? We really want to see Kaduna progress. People have made sacrifices and are still making tremendous sacrifices to make sure that things work and work good for Kaduna. But the truth is that we are disappointed. What we thought was good had turned out to be something else. This particular story I want to insist was wrongly presented. It is not right. There was no event like that. The fact that the confusion was because they mixed up the story with other local government. But when we followed clear carefully and realized that story is not like that, and we appealed to them to please correct this story so that they will not continue to paint the entire people in white light and put the Christian leaders' intention that there was an attack on church. When we called them for an attack, what did they do? Why did they bring in an issue of an attack when there was nothing? Why did they want to call that they are sympathizing with APA? That they show concern with APA? What APA do you not even know what happened? I struggle. I really sincerely struggle with the fact that the L5 government would in one breath and spend so much money to try to get people to come to invest in Kaduna State. And then in another breath turn away or turn its attention away from the insecurity in the country. I find that very hard to believe because if I want people to invest in my business or in my state, I would make sure that it's a safe haven for people to come and invest because nobody wants to invest in a place that's not a safe haven. So I'm really struggling to understand how this government, according to you, is not paying attention to insecurity. They're more of a media government according to you. But then they threw this big event asking people to come to the estate and invest. It's a bit ridiculous to break down. Let me just take you four weeks back. The government of Kaduna State came out publicly and said she was going to lock down or shut down all schools because the military were going to go into an exercise to get rid of bandits all over Kaduna. Schools were shut down, but within that period, the attackers went to NDA, attacked, killed and even kidnapped a military man. And kidnapping just continued in the state. When we've not even had a solution to that, they quickly again said that schools should reopen until kidnapping and killings are going on in Kaduna State. That's why some of us who have been following events realize that this whole thing is just a political gimmick. We've not really sit down to address the issues that are going on. We have not really sit down to look at this insecurity and address them. The fact of all is that those who openly come out in Kaduna to shout that something is wrong, people are not secured, are called names, but this reality is that people have been killed. Last night, I just told you 40 something people in Kauraloga Gwami were killed in Kaduna State. What steps have government taken to secure these people? But every day on newspaper, every day on the television, we see a lot of things that gives a picture as all is well, but all is not well. As a Bible student, I'm familiar with this. During Prophet Jeremiah, people will come out and say it is well, it is well when the reality is that all is not well. Kaduna is really, really, really in a mess, but since we have chosen to listen to governance by media, we will continue to die, then watch fantastic stories on television. Well, it's a bit confusing, but I just hope that everybody stays safe including you and hopefully something changes and things take a different turn. Joseph Hayab is the can chairman for Kaduna State. Thank you very much for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me too. I want to thank you all for staying with us and being part of the great conversations we've had tonight. I'll be back tomorrow. Same time on Plus TV Africa. I'm Mary Annacol and have a good evening.