 Hello and welcome to today's program where we're discussing gender-based violence and its elimination in a St. Lucian context with me today of three very special guests and So let's start by introducing them Sylvie. Let's start with you. I'm Sylvie Edward I work with the women's support center That is a shelter that provides temporary housing for women who are victims of domestic violence and their children I am Coven Mitchell social with all family courts My task is really to work with all persons with that comes into the system both male female dealing with various interests But I am particularly responsible for the domestic violence program dealing with the perpetrators of domestic violence So I am Suyan Haksho. I am the co-founder of ProSafe positive reactions over secrets and fears and We deal primarily with survivors of sexual violence. And so you can tell by the guest that we have Violence is a very broad Topic and when we talk about violence, especially gender-based violence, you have different categories of violence So you have sexual violence. You have domestic violence intimate partner violence But even as part of that there are subcategories. So there's physical. There's also emotional psychological Tell us what is the reality of the situation in St. Lucia because when we have gender-based violence We think mainly women and then we hear statistics But there are also unreported cases of violence in St. Lucia So so I want to start with you from your work that you've been doing in terms of Sexual assaults and sexual assault survivors. What is the situation? What is the reality of the situation in St. Lucia? I Would like to think that Across the board. It is much dire than we acknowledge or accept I Find that almost every other person I meet has a story Regardless of where it falls on a spectrum almost every person that I have met Knows somebody or is a survivor of sexual violence and a lot of them You will never know our survivors Whereas with domestic violence if it's depending on where you get hit you can tell something's happened With survivors of sexual violence unless they are willing to share their stories. You have no idea All right now Sylvie for the intimate partner abuse that is your area What is the situation like in St. Lucia? The situation as it stands. I believe is a big one But for some reason you find that a lot of people They do not come out It's not an easy thing for them to come out and report that they're being abused a lot of them It's kept under the carpet So you find a lot of people are going through intimate partner abuse and they do not report it But particularly if it is just emotional abuse most people would make a report when it has Escalated into physical violence. That's when you see the reports coming. So for them It's like it's only physical violence That's domestic violence and they try to forget the emotional abuse the psychological abuse the financial the sexual the Economical they forget all of these things Now curving you work at the family court and the family court has a big Responsibility and it has played an integral role in our solution society for a long time Tell us from your perspective as a counselor. What do you see the situation of gender-based violence in St. Lucia as? Well, we do have a very dire case of Gender violence and gender-based violence looking at both parties being perpetrators both women and men being perpetrators What you find is that through the spectrum of society? It is not limited to one aspect of society From the very lowest to the very highest in society It goes right through We on a daily basis have to deal with many persons coming in reporting gender-based violence and every spectrum of that gender-based violence and not just the physical or the emotional Psychological but every aspect of gender-based violence So this is something that is affecting St. Lucia and unless we do something about it is going to keep escalating One of the things and I think I've had these conversations separately with with all of you But I want to have it together One of the things that we have not acknowledged as a Caribbean people is how we have normalized violence in our society So therefore we don't really Recognize as Sylvie said those instances where we have crossed the threshold into abuse For example, I know one of the things that We have spoken quite a bit about Sue in the past is the catcalling and then how how Girls and boys are socialized at school. What is acceptable? And even with marriage with intimate partners in a partnership, you know We have some sort of predefined roles as to what a partnership is what is accepted during a partnership And one of those things that has always been very controversial is marital rape and rape within a partnership And I see the two of you know, yes, yes, we have had this problem and As well for domestic violence We don't have an Accurate idea of reports because not everyone who is abused or assaulted Makes that report why does it have to do with an embarrassment a shame? What is it? So I Think it's all of the above, but I'm gonna add to that You are on some level ashamed you are embarrassed because initially you see why did I allow this to happen to myself? But society also doesn't make very easy for you to come out and say that this has happened in cases of domestic violence They turn and they say well, why why did you stay with him? Nobody looks at why you stayed? It's always well She was stupid. She weak. Why did she stay? Why didn't she leave? Nobody tries to figure out what what made her stay? What else has happened that has made her think that this is what she deserves maybe she was a survivor of sexual violence and Her worth is that this is the best man that I'm gonna get Maybe she's accustomed to being hit from the time she was a child And so this is a pattern that's sort of repeating itself my my dad and my mom I saw my mom being beat by my dad So it's normalized now just like you said and so it makes sense that the guy that I find myself with Would also do that and I would stay because it's a pattern. That's what I've seen It's what I've been taught I'm going to go to Sylvia and I'm gonna come to come because I've not just curving his quiet in the middle there To add to what Suja said Sometimes fear also contributes to them remaining and it's not the fear of Maybe what people will think but the fear that the perpetrator would impose on the victim Because sometimes they would say to them that if you leave me, I'm gonna hurt you. I'm going to kill you I'm going to hunt your family down. I'm going to find you wherever you are and as a result of that People continue to remain. There is also the issue of dependency when you look at it There are lots of people who are going for abuse who are dependent on their partners one way or the other So they have to go through that level of negotiation and say What if I go what would happen to my kids? How would I take care of my kids? What would happen to me is that he's a bad partner. He abuses me but Financially he's a good father. He's a good dad. He takes care of me financially and if I were to leave him He would take care of my kids. What would I do? How would I survive and so they make that decision to remain instead of reporting and to add to what you said with regards to the sexual abuse sex is negotiable People have to negotiate sex and no means no whether I am your wife whether married to you whether we're living in a common Law relationship whether we've separated and we just you know together It means no both parties must agree both must say yes for sex to go on So as long as one person says no and the other one says Yes, it is for sex. It has to be no no and the yes. Yes He's smiling because I actually did we did have a little chat before he came on to this program And we were talking about Socialization and he has a very interesting perspective on when Incidences of violence gender-based violence. I want you to share that with us Well, you realize a culturalization has to do a lot with the way that we react in society The way they interact with individuals and I it is one of my views that this is one of the major problems for example We just had a genetic error Anytime you have a major activity We prepare family courts to have a huge influx of persons coming in basically because of the way that we interact and the things that we do these things seem to be Preseparating factors for domestic violence the way people How you socialize with each other the things that we do even the things that we accept Seem to be a link to our culture seem to be linked to our norms You go to your mother and you say okay, you know, he's doing X Y and Z What do worry about it? It's gonna stop. He's gonna change You go to your father. He says oh he's doing this. Okay. I'll talk to him But if we really begin to look at things and see how is it actually affecting us if I have been through domestic violence How did it affect me? So in my means me mind speaking to somebody else You now need to begin to look at the factors the emotional psychological factors Not just how society has viewed it But what impact it is having on us today and I think socialization Along with everything else that have been said Has a lot to do with gender-based violence in San Misha And I mean it's quite interesting that he says after a major event, you know You you have an upsurge in violence and you know, we like our carnival And we like our little feds and whatnot and so around that time you see an influx of DV cases After every holiday After every event that until social drinking There is an influx in DV cases for one reason or another. There is an influx So any social worker who was on intake at that point in time Repairs themselves after any major events to have a very heavy case load For that the day immediate day after the weekend The immediate day after the holiday or even sometimes the week after that event dependent on how big the event is That is quite alarming. I must say I want to delve a little bit more into that socialization aspect and how we view masculinity and femininity in Saint Lucia and these gender roles that we assigned my woman my wife My husband my man. That's my property You know don't don't come by my property that kind of thing But we definitely gonna delve into that after the break viewers stay with us. We'll be right back Oh, you realize you step on my toe. Well do something about it Mission boys studio 758 acid creations and the Royals and Lucia police force Welcome back to our discussion on the elimination of gender-based violence in Saint Lucia with me Alicia alley We have Sylvie curvin and Sue who have been talking to us just before we went to a break We're going to get into the discussion of gender roles We left our last segment talking about Socialization and how that has contributed to sexual and domestic violence in Saint Lucia But we have not really focused on gender roles Speaking from the perspective as a victim myself of both sexual and domestic violence. I know for a fact that Society views women and men in Saint Lucia in a very different way and victim blaming is Rife in Saint Lucia. It is a big thing in Saint Lucia. It is always what did she do to provoke him Right, or it's just a little touch-up. He give you why we're not like that That sort of thing and so the men in our society our idea of Masculinity especially in the West Indies are defined as very strong men who keep their emotions together They are the the breadwinners in the family, you know They are the alphas and the women are supposed to be the supporting characters We are supposed to be the caregivers the caretakers. We are supposed to be forgiving You know, we are we have all these sorts of roles assigned to us as girls and women and boys and men How has that Contributed that idea contributed to the situation in Saint Lucia Box on sexual violence throughout the schools and without feel you can see that The typical gender roles are very well established Meals or boys or men still think of it as if she's pretty and she's mine I'm going to take what I want regardless of and if I hear that she was with this other boy then technically that means she's fair game because she's already been with another boy and Girls see it as if something did happen to you then you did something to cause it Because you lied to your mom or you went with that boy or you spoke to me got into the car And without feel it always comes down to if the guy perpetrated the crime There was some valid reason for it happening. She did something. She let him into the house. She spoke to him she got dinner whatever the case is she did something and The girl is always the one left or the female and I'm gonna I'm gonna take out gender roles for a moment I'm just gonna see victim and perpetrator because I don't want it to come across as Women don't also commit certain crimes So victim perpetrator the victim is always the one that's left trying to defend themselves against a crime that was committed against them And if you don't have any scars then it's it's even worse now because if you have nothing to show You're not bruised. You're not bloodied then you didn't fight back and if you didn't fight back then it means on some level You wanted this to happen Now I Like to look at history and one of the things that I've found is that in parenting we make some crucial mistakes We tend to be to make the young men believe Hey, look you are the one who's always take charge You are the one who's supposed to be the leader and you are the one who's not supposed to allow the young woman To project herself above you. So you use whatever means to get it back to that level. It's a power thing a power So basically as a young man, you're allowed to go practically anywhere and to do anything unsupervised Young woman is not allowed at liberty because you're so to be gentle. You're supposed to be indoors You're supposed to be seen and not heard So we are raising our young men in one on one level young women on a different level and In our society today I'd also like to remove genders because we see so many other spectrums coming into place no longer Just a man and woman or woman and man it you will now have man on man woman and woman and Even in this you see those biases You're more masculine you take the lead you're more feminine you'll be subservient and Not necessarily that we are equals in this relationship And we are trying to build a relationship trying to build a family based upon equality There must be power. There must be control Somebody has to be underneath and not necessarily we both on the same level trying to achieve one goal And that is one of the parent the parental errors that I'm seeing throughout My work within the family cuts. Sylvie, what's your take? It's in my field of work. A lot of what you see is you have to be as A woman because we deal specifically with women the whatever services we provide is for the woman So I'm speaking from that specific that perspective and I'm saying that what we see is that You ought to listen your partner is the head of the house So you ought to listen to him and a lot of the things that we hear is that had you not Had you not responded when I spoke I would not hit you you don't listen you are rude You do things I ask you not to go there and you went so I you left me with no choice I had to do what I do and it is not supposed to be that way and We also want people to believe we get a lot of reported cases from women It's not that men are not being abused as well, but they do not report it Can that be linked to that image of masculinity? Precisely precisely so the men are not getting the requisite help and then Society is blamed. Oh, we don't focus on men But as Corvin said we have raised our boys in a particular manner and when they have become what it is that we have Socialized them to be we now chastise them and say but why don't you come forward? Why why why don't you say something? Now as we move forward with our discussion I want to move on to the other aspects of what you three do well We move from talking about victims where we talk about survivors Thrivers and also Kelvin you can talk to me about rehabilitation So first of all we have to establish. What is the difference between a survivor and a thriver I? Don't think there is a difference and and that's my personal take on it I think it depends on how you choose to describe yourself I've had people say to me if I use the tomb survivor. It means that I'm always surviving something I don't want that. I don't want to use the tomb for a thriver either I was a victim and and so I think between victim survive and thriver it is How the initial or the individual? Decides to classify themselves where they feel and what word they think Best describes where they're at that moment good and now moving from being the victim to The not victim we shall call it fair enough the not victim That's a process. It is and everybody has a different process so for Intimate partner abuse Sylvie. What have you seen in terms of the process of moving from victimhood to non-victim hood? For some people It is easy The ones They get into that situation. They say to themselves No, I am not going through that again, and it's for whatever reason Maybe they've gone through it before and they've decided that I don't want to be a part of that anymore but for others and really and truly before somebody could really get out of that situation and live a life free of Domestic violence, they would probably go in and out of an abusive relationship Several times probably as many as 20 times before they can definitely get out of it But some persons would be in there they would come it's a process They would come and in that moment where they're hurting they would say I do not want to be a part of that anymore I am finished. I am done, but there is something called manipulation I know when the manipulation starts and the manipulation is from the perpetrator who would now begin to realize that probably I've lost her. She won't be coming back to me. I cannot do without her Perpetrator now begins to call and say I am sorry. I didn't mean to do it It will never happen again. I love you so much. I will be going to the batterers intervention program To ensure it never happens again. I will go for counseling. I will marry you Here is the money that you needed to buy the shoes there Everything just imagine and then the victim would be slowly led back into that relationship Only to realize that it would happen again because once it occurs once it is a hundred percent likely to reoccur So, you know, it's a lot of coaching Educating the because it's a cycle and unless you are aware that domestic violence takes the form of a cycle You will never be able to get out of it and also the perpetrator having to understand that I have a problem because it's not You may give all of the help you want to a victim, but as long as the perpetrator does not get help Nothing is likely to change because the perpetrator is still there with his issues not realizing that I have a problem I am a perpetrator and I need help now going to sue because the process for sexual assault survivor sexual assault victim can be Different to an intimate partner process. So what is it in terms of sexual assault? What is the process to move? from becoming that victim to not becoming that victim anymore I It is going to be specific to each individual and I can be I can all I can be is very vague at some point all the triggers all the flashbacks all the side effects become too much and You realize at some point I need to do something To begin to address what I've been through because for most of your life regardless of the time frame between Suffering a sexual assault and actually seeking help You struggle a lot and It's compounded by the fact that most survivors don't tell anybody so you have very little to no support and and And you have all the side effects you have the flashbacks You have the fact that you can't sleep at night that you can't trust people that you can't be in an intimate relationship with somebody else And and and you're addicted to certain things obviously it's going to vary from person to person I think you go from that to realizing at some point That you need to do something to help yourself it took me I think 20 Years to get somewhere in between there to get to a place where I was actually ready to speak about it And so from 20 years and that's me and that's me with a Psychology degree somebody who doesn't have that Me take longer may take shorter It also depends on how much support you have if you did go to your mom and say listen this happened to me And she said oh my god, how can I help? Chances are you're gonna be in a better place than somebody whose mom said that didn't happen. What's you're lying? That's wrong It depends on your support. It depends on your level of readiness. It depends on what's available It depends on the society and how they view victim sexual assault I think those things are going to impact Your steps towards getting from being a victim to a place where you're healed or healing So we spoke about the victims perspective and Sylvie mentioned the batters intervention program Coving that that that's your cue right there Domestic violence prevention program. Ah, that's the correct name All right, because you don't want them to view themselves as batters even as you so kept saying we label a whole lot and That label tends to stick to you. So if I'm a batter Then I batter But if there is domestic violence and I'm trying to prevent it That makes it different. So you see a problem and you try to address the problem and you don't see the person as a problem So if I help change your perspective of yourself already Then there is already help for you if you get to see yourself different and within the family court we deal with both the perpetrators and the victims The program is for both of them. So the domestic violence prevention program We send both parties to that program There is a social worker dealing with the women and I deal with the men What we try helping the men realize especially of Perpetrators realize is that you are responsible for your action. Nobody else can be blamed for your action. I See a cup of tea. I got you to drink it. I got you to leave it there Somebody has perpetrated something against me. I Become angry. I could choose to punch a person down or Take the matter to court. I Got chose to go to a counselor Or Do some counseling myself Either way, whatever action you choose You must own up to it. And that's a good place for us to take a break We will be right back the discussion isn't done. Please stay with us Pamela, I noticed that you built your retaining wall on my property You'll have to give me my land back or compensate me for that. My contractor isn't dumb I trust that he will not build anything on your property. Where is your proof? Let's go to court this situation does not require you to go to court looks like we have to go through mediation here Mediation is a way people resolve conflicts like this someone a third party comes to speak to both parties This person is called the mediator. The mediator is impartial He or she makes sure that communication between both parties is effective and efficient So the mediator is a judge. No, the mediator is not a judge Mediators unlike judges do not decide cases or impose settlements Let me get a mediator to handle this retaining wall and that kitchen Kitchen. Yes, your kitchen also falls on my land. Let me call the mediator Welcome back to our program on eliminating gender-based violence in st. Lucia with me Alicia Ali and with me is Sylvie Curvid and Sue We've been having a wonderful discussion so far And so now we're actually going to just give you a preview of our studio audience We do have a studio audience from the St. Joseph's convent and they will be asking some questions If they do feel like anybody has any questions so far Yes, so we have a young lady in the front row. Can you tell us your name? It's a sir joy cocks. Hi, and what do you have to ask us today? I Said something about a batter or bands. I wanted to know what that was. I was a bit lost Okay, so please explain what a batter is and how you have that label came into being Okay, basically looking at batters as perpetrators of violence So someone who would inflict physical emotional psychological pain on another That is why I tend not to use the term because it's a label that is attached to you And no matter where you go this label is there What I see it as is someone who has committed an act that was not correct And therefore the acts need to be corrected and not necessarily the person labeled as a batter All right Anyone else Right on that label of Battering and you speak about the domestic violence intervention program. Did I get it right? That's correct. All right. I feel like I need like a Scout sticker What sort of rate of Rehabilitative success have you seen with perpetrators of domestic violence? Do you see any sort of recidivism? Meaning do they come back with the same issue or Do they just go through the program and all is cured As with every program You never have a hundred percent rate of success But in my evaluation of the program thus far you have at least about 60 success rates You do have some persons no matter what you do They will be back It's almost as if that is the pattern of life and it chooses Not to do anything different. However, there are some persons who come into the program And get this aha moment But I never saw this as being wrong Oh, but I always thought she But when you get them to understand I I am the one responsible No matter what somebody do we were having a discussion early on and looking at triggers I had to learn as a young man who was very angry That there are certain things that would trigger my anger And as I go to understand those triggers It helps me to control my anger and not allow anger to control me So that is one of the things we try to get the men to understand Aside from that, let's talk about I want to go to sylvie now You have that intimate partner relationship And you manage the the women's support center How is it How do people go to you for help? Do you just like show up at the door? What services do you offer? We have protocols in place For referring clients to the center If someone is a victim first of all, we have a 202 crisis line It's a 24 hour line anybody can call it at any time When you say crisis what does that mean? It's a line that you can call at any time with whatever issues that you have It does not have to be specific To intimate partner abuse because you can call and you may be seeking help for any other issue that you have affecting you And you may not know how to access that other service So if you call the 202 line it's there for 24 hours You can get a referral if whatever issues that you have has nothing to do with intimate partner abuse We can make the referral also our referral comes from the family court You can be self-referred, but it is through the 202 hotline You cannot just walk up to the center. We do the pickup. We do the drop-off So family court human services the crisis center Even sue if sue may from her organization may have somebody who needs to be referred to the center You as well anybody, but it is like through the 202 hotline You must call the 202 hotline in order to get help and what sort of Referral help can we find at the support center? Well, there are lots of things available at the center We take a holistic approach when someone comes to the center as a victim of intimate partner abuse First we do we sit with them and we do what you call a psychosocial assessment In that assessment we look at the needs of the client where they are at And what is it that they would require to move on? We also provide intimate partner counseling domestic violence counseling We do the one-on-one counseling We also have the children's program that is specific to intimate partner abuse and Domestic violence that the children are experiencing at home. So we work with the kids as well We also do what you call a practical support That is assessing the needs of the client in terms of their skills What is it that they require to get out of that Situation and to live a life free from intimate partner abuse So if you say to me you want to leave the abusive relationship and you need a job You've been unemployed. I will explore with you. How long have you been unemployed? What skills do you have? What's your education level? What is the area of work that you're looking at and then we begin to explore sending out applications for you We also look at where we can assist right now. We're looking at a program We call it a pre-care package where we can assist the client based on their needs So if you say you want to leave the abusive relationship, but you are unemployed you would need child care You need a home So we would look at a package where we'll probably examine paying the first three months of the rent for you Getting the job for you and getting your child to Pre-school nursery while you are at work for a period of time until you are able to sustain yourself in that area We do quite a bit of work. We do the referrals. We work with nsdc If you need a skill you want to go to nsdc So we'll use with nsdc. We arrange that if you're looking at housing we work with ssdf We ask ssdf we send out the application to ssdf to assist So the center is about empowering Empowering clients to live lives free from intimate partner abuse. That sounds like a slogan It is I want to come see you now Early in the program you said, you know a lot of sexual assault survivors don't want to come forward or sexual assault victims Don't want to come forward. One of the things I realized that we did not do is to categorize What sexual assault is we spoke about domestic violence and intimate partnering, but There are categories of sexual assault. What are they and How can victims get on that road through healing what what what would their First point of contact be what sort of support should they look for can they look for? That's a lot of questions. That's a lot of questions. I'm sorry. It just came So sexual assault or sexual violence is any unwanted touching It ranges from I I even want to include cat calling as well because I think that always escalates when you don't pay attention or you ignore them They get very angry. I've had somebody grab my arm because they did that and I I ignored them So I I think it starts there not maybe like the subtle form and it escalates incest Rape like I said any any form of unwanted touching Anything that feels wrong to you I always say trust your gut if it feels wrong and you're not sure you can you can ask somebody ask a teacher ask a parent And you don't have to if you feel uncomfortable saying it happened to me You can always pause it in a well. I have a friend who said this That's I mean that's how I've done it a hundred times when I when I wanted to talk about stuff that was happening to me But I didn't feel comfortable Saying it was me. So that's a safe way to find out if it feels wrong trust your gut In terms of Getting help was that the next yes in terms of well, what would be For a victim who has experienced sexual assault or they're not even sure that they've done it Had that experience. What would be the first thing that they should do? I think that is going to be dependent on you If you feel like you find somebody that you can trust and you want to talk to them You can do that The internet's always there. You can research that way You can always reach out to counselors the local NGOs other services that are available But it is it is always I always say trust where you are at rushing into anything in terms of seeking help can have A detrimental effect if you're not really ready And if you Speak to the wrong person I think and I don't I don't think there's any easy way to say but I'm going to be blunt Finding somebody to speak to or thinking that you found the person to speak to is always a risk Because you never know what they're going to see and and there are very well meaning people who say things the wrong way Why don't you just get over it? Right or or are you sure that you didn't misunderstand or or it's your dad's friend So that would never happen or and we can go through the list of things that people see And and those are definitely the wrong things to say. There's no if ands or buts, but there are some people who Like you may tell a friend and that friend may not know what to say and they may say are you sure And they they don't not believe you. They are equally shocked and they don't know how to respond So are you sure might be the first thing that pops out? So always be aware that in finding somebody to speak to that the wrong thing may come out It's not comforting And and and I know that generally sets most survivors back because the first person that you choose to speak to You generally feel that you can trust them And when they don't respond in the way that is appropriate it generally Shut you down for a little while and that is okay Just don't give up It may mean that you speak to Alicia and she says the wrong thing That is a 50 probability But it doesn't mean and and and if you felt that you could trust her Then you can always at some point have a further discussion like I said that to you Why did you respond in that way and she may then very well say I didn't know what to say Or it happened to me too and I didn't know what to say And so those are always things that can happen. It's just trying to it's finding the right person And understanding that the right person may not always say the right thing There are tons of online Groups and support systems that you can find that allow you to be anonymous If that's what you want to be there are lots of stuff locally I should take that back. There's not lots of stuff locally. There should be more stuff locally There are a few things locally And and the few that are there you can always tap into You can always tap into pro safe Our numbers are out there. There are articles that go out every week You can always call and one of the things I mean we're coming to the end of the program But a lot of times people don't understand as a society that you need to have patience with victims because PTSD does not refer to soldiers who are in war And you know, they're hearing bombs go off all the time. That is not the only instance of PTSD. There are also triggers flashbacks depression Which is a big issue in our culture, but we don't talk about this depression because that's very taboo And so as we're wrapping up our program I want for the final words for you guys on just on Empowering the victim and having patience In the process Right, so you want to go first? Sure From one survivor to as many as there are out there Know that you will do it in your own time Like I said, it took me 20 years and I think in certain ways I've gone back and you take steps forward So know that On the journey, you're gonna You're gonna move out and you're gonna be in a great place and something's gonna happen That's gonna make you drop back and that's just the process and that you have to Trust that that's what it is and you're gonna feel good and you're gonna feel bad and know that Baby steps is how I always say you just take baby steps don't You can make plans you can set goals, but always take it one day at a time because Triggers flashbacks and PTSD it's real and we don't talk about it And we don't Many times attributed to sexual violence because it's something that you're supposed to get over regardless of what happened or how it happened But it is real and it means that any at any moment It can happen and it can be debilitating and it can stop you in your tracks And you can be you can think that you made 20 steps forward and then be like at minus five and that's okay All right, thank you If there's one thing I want to leave with this This session Is that there is always help? Many persons view family court as a place for women So the women will come Many of the men either don't know or to ashamed to come But I want them to understand that even as a perpetrator you could come in To the organization and say I need help It's not an organization where we want to label you It's an organization where we actually want to assist in alleviating the problem. Thank you Kelvin Sylvie final words from you So all the victims out there and people who are going through domestic violence I wanted to know that the help is available They can always call the 202 hotline. It is a free line. You can call it at any time. It's 24 hours The work that we do is very confidential Your identity will be anonymous. We won't know it is you We just hear your voice will listen to you in a non-judgmental way We do not pass judgment on anyone will listen in an empathic way And we try to help the best we can you can call the line as many times that you want It is not a border. It's a helpline. It's free. Thank you so very much Ladies and gentlemen, I'm so happy we had a gentleman on the panel. Thank you viewers for staying with us Thank you so very much for our in-studio audience This has been a very fruitful discussion on eliminating gender-based violence in st Lucia. I am Alicia Ali on behalf of the entire production team Thank you for staying with us and stay tuned to the national television network