 This is a Fedora Council video meeting. So we do meetings generally about once a week because it turns out that's hard to get business done if you don't regularly meet. I wanted to do kind of a meeting free council, but that turns out to not actually be effective. So meetings it is. And about once a month, we do a high bandwidth video meeting rather than an IRC text or matrix chat meeting. And so this is one of those. The Fedora Council is the top level leadership governance body for the Fedora project. And one of the things we do is set Fedora objectives. These are basically 12 to 18 month things that are bigger than like a change in Fedora Linux, something big in the project we want to get accomplished. And so we are wrapping up one of those objectives now, which was a revamp of our ambassadors program. And so we have the leads of that objective here, Shimantro and Mariana, who are going to present on how that went, where we're at now and what's going to happen next. And I hope that's the right things. I will now turn the meeting over to them and they can explain and we'll go from there. Do you all want questions as you go or do you want to have, I don't know, what do you have planned? Maybe it's better at the end. Okay. Yeah, questions at the end. Sounds good. It's all you then. Okay, I'm going to share my screen. And I won't be able to see you all while I have this up. So just let me know when we need to go to the next slide. I'm Marie Norden. I am Fedora's Community Action and Impact Coordinator. And I provided support to Mariana and Shimantro through this objective. Okay, I'm going to ask a person myself. I am Mariana, I'm a Fedora contributor since 2016. For my day job, I'm a product owner for an open source product as well. And I was one of the two people involved in this initiative for the past almost two years. So I'm Shimantro, I work for Fedora QA team and I ran a couple of other positions before this. Mindshare to be very precise and then this time around and counsel. I was helping out with most of these or leading most of these efforts around community outreach and mentorship. So this is what we present today to be a conclusive craft of everything that happened. Marie, it's you. Cool, so I'm gonna give a quick overview of the objective and then Shimantro and Mariana will dive into the specifics. So I proposed a revamp for our outreach teams. So this is not just the ambassadors, this is also commops, the joint SEIG advocates and ambassadors in the beginning of 2020. It was inspired by a book club that I was a part of and we were reading this book, Switch, How to Change When Change is Hard. And it inspired me to tackle this ambassador problem there was some long-term feelings and kind of program as a whole had kind of slowed down. There was also some confusion around which teams were doing what, things had kind of splintered out and kind of made their own little clusters of activity. So there was just confusion about how to get involved and which teams were doing what. So the idea here was to make Fedora's community outreach teams fully functional to update the ambassador program, to bring awareness to the community about the changes that were happening and overall just to improve and mold the current outreach teams into a group of active, successful and exciting teams to be a part of. So we did a bunch of efforts or we started doing a lot of efforts around the deliverables that we are supposed to actually complete. One of these major goals as we were talking about organizing most of these teams, as Murray said, the outreach teams, it's not just one team, it's a bunch of very small formations of teams which work jointly together to promote Fedora in multiple ways. One of which was Comups, which was the umbrella under which a lot of these initiatives came into. Documenting those responsibilities as a part of something called role handbooks was one of the key targets to making sure these teams understand who they are onboarding and the people who are being onboarded understand what their responsibility would be when they joined such teams or groups. That they are working with. We created a bunch of role handbooks which identified responsibilities for Joint Save Comups advocates ambassadors and introduced a new program in Sense which was the Ambassador Emeritus. So anybody in the ambassadors who would be burnt out and had no time to give to Fedora Project can actually take a step back, be a part of this group and then whenever they feel ready they can come and join back to the ambassador. So that's one target that we had in mind and we completed it. The next thing was we had a lot of people who were representing their own groups to mindshare. So for example, mindshare was always a collection of multiple sub bodies, one of which was ambassadors, then we had designed docs and multiples. Most of these reps to mindshare people were not, the documentation for who they were and what they were supposed to do as part of the reps was not very documented. So we went ahead, we formalized that process. We asked the mindshare reps to kind of give us an idea of what they are doing on the day-to-day basis and we finished documenting that as well. One of the important things as we moved along was to understand communities overview of outreach. So we wanted to know what the community was missing but the community wanted more of and what the community did not actually benefit from. And as a result, we ran multiple surveys. We kind of analyzed all the reports and there are like multiple blogs that we wrote about summarizing most of these reports. The mindshare team was interviewed multiple times to understand if their functioning can be made better is some of which was moving apart, the people who were inactive, making sure that mindshare team meets every two weeks or every week. The meeting timings were changed. A lot of effort went into understanding what can be done better to ensure mindshare team works in full function. One of the important things as we understood was we wanted to do a rebranding of the whole thing. Murray was a design lead and she used to do a lot of things in badges before she carried her experience over, actually taught a lot of people and mentored a lot of people over outreach internships. And we got a lot of asset design for our marketing team to go ahead and use those, our atmosphere teams and advocate teams to actually get those assets whenever they needed for a presentation or for even, you know, letting the word out to a friend. As we understood our community was big and we wanted more and more of these resources to be translated into as many languages as we could. So one of those important thing was translating the role handbooks we mentioned before into five to eight key languages. And as a result, this was a effort we took on and the last part of our presentation at NEST was basically running a localization sprint with Mariana and on-rope and rest of the people joining in and translating and helping us translate some of this documentation into as many languages as we could. So having said that, we kept running and we promised that we would keep running this community health surveys which would help us analyze the community calls or what's basically bothering the community, what's going right and more importantly, some awareness to the community so that we can understand which part of community lacks what sort of communication. We wanted to run that survey. We ran that survey multiple times. The survey kind of helped us gather more insight into the community, more insight into events, more insight into, you know, experiences provided by the outreach team which then moved into the documentation which we have finally solidified. Mori will be demoing them at the end. Finally, we actually went ahead and developed a bunch of informal polls which was supposed to be like basically can be run anywhere and they are supposed to just give us ideas. So imagine if you have an event running most likely NEST and the release parties we usually throw up these informal polls to kind of measure awareness around multiple teams. This was an ideated concept which we implemented as a part of the demo. Mori, could you move on to that? So one of the major important things that happened as a result of such steps was we had an elaborate list of outcomes that came up. First up, we wanted to deal out with the ambassadors that were not fully active in the program and the way we did it, we sent out emails, we gave a time frame and finally we removed them or rather moved them to a new group. That was one of the biggest outcome that we had out of the entire revamp. Second thing that we kind of wanted to do was, you know, a lot of people were misguided or rather they were misrepresented. When MindShare was formed there was an inherent fear that the ambassadors would not have access to budgets and swags and stuff like that. So how to organize events and how to request for swags, that was a missing piece since some time and like, you know, we kind of brought that together and that was one of the outcomes that we did. Finally, having the commops teams and any of the sub-teams kind of get in an organized way in the community outreach was one of those things that we tried to do to try to actually go out and tell them, hey, if you're onboarding people, how do you onboard people? Okay, so if you onboard people using certain set of tools, this course being discussions, being one of them, where is this documented? Is there a way that we can document this entire process? So the onboarding documentation of how to get involved with community outreach teams was made much, much, much better than what it was. Having said that, all of our logos and all of our designs were getting dated and we wanted to basically bring a arsenal of new designs and Murray's like plan of action helped with that. So we had a lot of new planning that went into the new swags, the new scene, I think that was, that is what it was called. So all of those came as outcome of a new structure in commops to grow branding and help the relevant marketing plans there. Another thing that we understood is after COVID, we wanted a very open and robust ambassador program. And this was where we wanted things to be more digital and we did not just want in-person events, we also wanted events which could be done online. One of the biggest example of such events that we have done over time is Pederamento Summit. That was an online event. We gathered a lot of, rather rejuvenated a lot of X contributors to come together and all of this was kind of possible because as part of the outcome we said, we are gonna make ambassador program more and more accessible to people. Somebody who cannot travel to events can actually attend events online. Nest was one of the biggest achievements in that area. Nest saw the highest amount of veterans participating across the globe who could have never possibly traveled to one or the other block that we did in Europe or US. So that was, having said that, that where those were some of our, you know, outcomes, we started ambassador calls, monthly ambassador calls where we got people to mentors to come in and basically speak up about their experiences, any new member to come in and ask questions about how to get into ambassadors. And till now we have run like five to six calls like that and we have gotten new people every time asking new questions and which always adds to a feedback and we can actually keep evolving them as a ambassador program like that. Marie, that's from my end, I think that's Marie. Yes, I'll continue from here. So we did all this effort, of course, but we were just leading the revamp. We wanted the community to be part of it as well. So as you can see, one of the very first events that we organized online was the volunteer kickoff call where we basically gathered as many Fedora community members as we could, we presented our vision for the revamp and what we had in mind, what we wanted to achieve. And we asked people to help whenever they can or whenever we have something for them to work on. We have a very long list of events that we have presented. I will mention briefly a few of them. Basically, we have been at all next events. We have been at the open source conference, which was I think one of the most important moments of the revamp because we get to join a different community and present how the Fedora is revamping one of the biggest kind of tech projects within Fedora, which is the ambassador, but not only ambassadors, also the rest of the outreach teams. Another very big event that we attended was Community Central back in June 2021 that is hosted by Prime Profits. So we get to present our revamp to many Red Haters there. Besides of the events, we have also written many blog posts. May I continue forward on slide? So we have written many blog posts throughout the two years. We wanted everybody to be aware of what we're doing and where we're at. Different from the presentations that we've had, the really blog posts were concentrated on a timeframe of a few months, probably two or three months, but we've done on that timeframe. During the presentations, though, we were starting every time from the beginning to realize that as months go by, more and more people join those online events. So every presentation that we had, we would always start from the beginning and how we were doing things from day one. So there's a very long list of blog posts that we have written. You can check all of them. And yeah, this is my part, Mari. All right, Mari? Cool, so I'm gonna close that part down and give everyone a demo of the updated documentation. So previously to this, Ambassador's documentation lived on the wiki and advocates was direct to you to mind share. Comops existed here, but we integrated that in. Join exists separately. And actually as we started this whole process off, join was like, we're working great, we're doing exactly what we want to do. So there was very minimal changes that went into how join works, but we do have their documentation right here. And simultaneously as all this was happening, the marketing team got a revival and they've updated their documentation. So that's where this one points to. So you'll see here the different teams listed on the left side. So if you go to ambassadors, you can see a team overview. So this is kind of divided out so that it's a little bit easier to digest, but it's all in one place. So here's the roll handbook about how ambassadors are supposed to conduct themselves, teams still be working with contact information. So all of this kind of existed on the wiki before, but we went through and updated it and made sure it was still relevant and that the language was what we, the kind of tone that we hoped it would be, right? So here's ambassador logos. We also have a badge that you can earn for becoming an ambassador. And then here we have steps about how to become an ambassador. Also under ambassadors is the ambassador emeritus. So you can see there's information on how to become that. There's a badge, logo for it. And then here is ambassador mentor about becoming a mentor for ambassadors. Comups also still lives here, but we reorganized it a little bit into the same structure that we did for ambassadors. And also in here is where the community polls work or live. So this is actually formatted for discourse. So these can be just quickly moved over there if desired and how to contribute. I think this actually needs to get moved somewhere else, but and then we also have here Comups and ambassador reps to mind share. The responsibilities are duration of service, better, et cetera, so that's all been updated. Under here is the IRC Libera Chat group context. We were asked to include this in the Comups documentation. So we have it there. We also put in all the different badges that you can earn just organized into one place. These are not pushed because we need some help with badges, but we did have a designer work on them. So it'd be great if we had some badges folks to help out with that. As Dimandro mentioned, I mentored in a design intern last summer to update a lot of the stuff we have. So our old classic favorite cheat cubes so we just had a packaging cheat cube, but it had like all the old logo and the old style to it. So we updated the cheat cube to have a new Fedora logo new style. We had someone review the text here and update it to make it relevant. And then we said, hey, this is cool. Why don't we make some more? So we made a how to join Fedora one, a four foundations cube, one that specifically goes over the community outreach teams. Meanwhile, we had a new slide deck presentation made by Ms. Moe, if you know, Maureen Duffy. And so you can get that to use here as an ambassador or any Fedora contributor can find that here. We also created a bunch of how to join Fedora resources in combination with the Join SIG, use me. So here you have a slide presentation of how to join Fedora and anyone can give this presentation. We also made print versions of how to join Fedora. So you can print these out at your event that you might be having, excuse me. There's a couple of different versions, different looks. And then we also made ones that are great for the web. And then here's the how to join Fedora cheat cubes. Again, here we point to the organizational chart. Here we point to the mind share infographics. And then here we have all of the logos in one place. So you can find all these in this repo here. You go to all assets, you can find all of these files. I think that's a full coverage of the docs and that kind of brings us to the end. I'm gonna stop sharing my screen. Wow, that's a lot. Very impressive. Thank you, thank you everybody for working on that. That's a lot of work done and really made things a lot nicer. Especially I think for onboarding, but in general, wow, I guess we need a stamp of success and approval for objectives. But this was really great. It's good to see. I guess I don't have any immediate questions. Does anybody else have any that come to mind? I'll ask a question. So what would you say was the most helpful thing in terms of making the objective successful that a future objective might build from? And what was the thing that you needed the most that you didn't get or didn't get enough of? I have some input on this. I think that having co-leads was a great thing for this objective and that if it had just been relying on one person instead of three of us, it might have died out. So I know that other objectives in the past have just been maybe one person kind of like making sure it all happens and not all of them have been like a smashing success, right? So I think that having the three of us work on it helped because it was like two years long. I know I personally had moments where I was like, I'm losing energy on this or Sumatra or Mariana, right? But we helped pick up that slack in between and then kind of carry it through. So having the three of us work together was really nice. Sumatra and Mariana were co-leads and I kind of worked as a project manager for them, like making sure we were keeping on task and that we were focused on our goals and that when we had to adapt, we did so, right? Like there were things that we thought would work that didn't necessarily work. So we said, we're not gonna let that stop us, we're just gonna work on adapting. So I think having a project manager, a program manager to help out with objectives is also a huge one. I'm gonna think about the thing that we could have had more of, but I'll let Sumatra and Mariana jump in. If I can add something to what Marie just said, one thing I noticed those two years that the three of us had a very different federal background. So Sumatra, I think he has been like for many, many years, but he's more into the technical side so he knew more community members that were on the engineering side and he knew a lot, you know, the APAC community and I'm in Europe. So the fact that we came from different regions, I think helps a lot, especially when it, when we had to discuss about the ambassadors and the inactive ambassadors, managers and stuff. I think one of the things that helped a lot in this objective is the community in general. So Fedora has always been a very helpful community, but when we reached out and we asked people, hey, can we get some help on translations? Can we get some people up for ambassadors call? You know, community never shied out. Community always supported. I think that is the biggest thing that I give credit to because all of this effort would not probably have been successful if a lot of our community members wouldn't have showed up or rather have not cared about at all, right? So most of this, I mean, we have had consistent participation at our Nest, you know, docs and slides. We have had 50 odd people coming in and going out. So that proves that a lot of these community members, they care about the change, they care about the process. That, I think, drove a lot. Yeah, I think that's really important. One of the things I talked at the very beginning about setting objectives as our council's role, but really we are supposed to set those objectives based on things we see in the community rather than top-down kind of things. And so I think that's part of the success here because this is something that, you know, it can't just be even two people, three people, on the objective doing everything. It's got to be a community thing that the objective is basically coordinating this. I wanted to ask, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. I had something, too, but Marianna, go first. And Akashita, if I see your answer, we'll come back to you. No, I wanted to mention that one of the things that led to the success of this objective was actually timing. This started while COVID started. So if we have done all this documentation and set all this process in place like three years ago, that wouldn't work now. When we were looking at the documentation, we tried to focus most on the global scenery of the things rather than regional. So I think this is something that is future-proof. So online events and online presence and people, you know, connecting online will never stop from now on. We know that for sure. So having the chance to write documentation based on that new reality, I think was very important for this objective. All right, so I wanted to add one thing I did notice that I think we could have had more of is someone specifically committed to, I don't wanna say documentation per se, but writing about what we're doing, like I'll say like the blog posts and the documentation took up the majority of our time. So having someone who's specifically there to do writing, who wants to write, who's skilled at writing, like that would have been awesome to supplement some of the organizational stuff and other pieces that we were doing, like mentorship and surveys and like analyzing the surveys. Like doing all that work is one piece, but then writing about it and communicating it out is a huge task. I mean, you saw all the blog posts and presentations that we did, and that was not insignificant. Yeah, so I guess what I'm wondering is should we formalize that objective should have two co-leads rather than one lead? And we talked before about making sure there was a council sponsor, a person who's basically the executive sponsor for each objective. We could make it so objectives, you should have two co-leads, an executive sponsor and maybe a program management team person and a docs writer, like this is the structure we want. That too heavy to do that? Or maybe some of it could be a suggestions kind of thing. I don't know. Now I- I think it's a suggestion. Oh, that's a thought. See, I'm not sure, go ahead. So Matthew, to answer your question, I think it should be a suggestion. Doing work is great, but as long as it is not visible to community or the status of the work is not visible to community, it really doesn't help. So reportability, keeping in mind from a project manager perspective is a very different report than a lead writing 15 pages about it, right? So thought suite consistent reporter is something that we need out of every objective, right? And that gives community more insight into like, okay, so what are the areas of participation? What are our target audience that we are looking for? I think one of those structure could be very helpful for any objective that I have seen coming around, right? So that's- Akash, you should just jump in here. Don't need to wait. Oh, right. So I wanted to add to the suggestion point. It should be a recommendation kind of a thing. We have had Murray join us with the colleagues calling the website and that's another way of an objective that we have run. And we have taken a look at how the team evolves over the time, how people come in, how the requirements change, both in terms of technical perspective. So it almost helps to have more hands on deck. So two colleagues and one project manager seems like it could take forward. But then again, there would be objectives who might not need them. So a suggestion would be nice. Okay. I kind of think that like two people minimum is like, is a great idea. And my thought is if you were able to get more than each person is doing less work and if it's a technical objective, it also frees that person up to focus on the technical aspects. So I would say two people at minimum and no, these are the types of roles if you had an ideal situation. But I think this was also like a huge undertaking. So it made sense to have the three of us and then getting help through events and other things throughout the objective. Akash, you had a question about something else that... Yes, I did. But before I go to the question, I want to thank you folks for running this objective. Two years is not a lot of short time. So doing this at such a stretch, making sure that these teams come together and then forms a community as a whole and then the processes that make sure that even after the subject is done with, this thing keeps going on. So that was a gigantic thing and put us to you folks. But yeah, coming to the question, there are things, there are parts of the community which are not as visible as other parts. Stay for instance, packaging, not very visible infrastructure. And the likeness of people participating in those regions is a bit less as compared to the likes of, say, website and apps or design, which are very, very visible. The stuff that you do gets presented to you. How do you folks plan on incentivizing participation in those parts of the community? Yeah, the ambassadorship or advocacy, how do you plan on doing so? I'm really curious to know. I can take that. Okay, so there are two parts for advocacy. When you talk about technical advocacy, then one of those very important areas comes into mind. You have to find a subject matter expert who is really skilled at something and they can go advocate for that particular piece of tech. So if it is packaging, so you need a package to talk about packaging because it requires somebody to get a sponsorship and things, right? So if you look at our design assets and things like we have made the, so there are a bit of flyers as well, which could be used for packaging as steps, exactly those steps. Now, if you look at CheatCubes, that was another way of basically taking the entire steps and then putting it as a fun little thing in a conference for people to actually play around and also look at them and use them wherever need be. Incentivizing, that's one of those things that we did not end up, right? That was not the target that we were trying to do. There was badges that we expected that to happen, but badges is in a different conversation altogether, right? So what I want to say is incentivizing, yes, at this point any advocate can ask for $100, go up for the event, take our design assets, throw at the audience and get some idea about what they want to do, right? And then the Joint Six helps them pair up with infrastructure and the process continues. Process is there. What we need is we need somehow to give people the access or the awareness, which I think would be summed up in a two-part blog post, which Murray is currently editing and I'm currently writing, which would basically sum up this entire thing of how you can do advocacy for any bit of it, if that answers. It certainly does. Thank you so much. I had another question, but if you don't really have time for it, then I might just skip it. Do we have time for it? I just wanted to add one more thing to that one. Something that we talked about and something that we'd like to do still in the future is get new ambassador polos made. There's like a huge wag kind of revamp that's happening in the background where we have three locations and we're moving down to one. I'm coordinating that. It's like a lot of effort, but I'd like to do an ambassador polo drive with the new logo. And I think that really helps people feel connected to Fedora as part of their identity. And I think it's a nice incentive for folks, but we only have about 70 of the old shirts out there and they're in EMEA and we can't find the invoice and they can't go other places without the invoice. So I'm trying to figure out just what we're gonna do with those, right? But after we deal with that question, I'd like to get new ambassador polos out to at least the ambassadors. One point I wanna add there. Sounds great. Right, the same question that I wanted to ask is about the point that Mariana put forward about the events, the fact that COVID has now evolved us into having our events in a way that we never planned before, but this is the default, right? The way that we can reach to as many people as possible, the ones who could not have made two local places wherever these events must have been happening, but with words for events, that is a possibility. The thing is at times what happens with events like Hatch, the ones that we have right now, local attention with people who have been belonging to those regions specifically, they were able to onboard a lot of new people into teams that they work with. I could say, for example, the Hatch, we did in India, we had a contributed influx, especially those who actually stayed back even after months now, after that event has done with. So do you plan on organizing events in a hybrid basis or anything of that sort down the line as a part of ambassadorship or anything that you have in your mind right now? As far as I know, there are no plans for onsite events yet, at least, but I think even if we start having kind of bigger, I mean, I'm not talking about Hatch, which is meant to be like very local, bigger events like Flop, et cetera, it should be something hybrid for people to attend even if they cannot make it onsite. Do you want to? So the one thing I wanted to add was when you talk about in-person events or local events per se, one of those things that you can start doing today is you can start planning off a release party if you want to, right? Because release is coming up, which means if you wanted to really do ambassadorship play around, this is a good time to plan a release party and I suppose MindShare would help you out with a $100 budget. You can cut a cake, presentations made, and you can go have event, some level of advocacy there, right? We can, if we are looking at events like Hatch or events like FWD, yes, they are calendar events, they might happen, like it depends how we are wanting to place, but yeah, FWD is a calendar event that always happens. We have release parties coming up, so if you are somebody who wants to really do in-person events, have a red hat office in front of you, go ahead, Planet, we should be able to support that. Pretty bad. Next slide. Go ahead, Matthew. Okay, I'll do it. I have pretty strong opinions about hybrid events, which is I don't think they actually work very well because the people who are not, who are remote don't have the same connection and the people who are there, when there's a piped in talk or a recorded talk, check out from it and don't connect to the online stuff very well. So I think it's important for us to have both of those things, but I think rather than doing hybrid, we should have separate in-person events and virtual events. We should, of course, try and make things like, if we do flock in-person, we should make it possible to follow remotely, but I don't think we wanna present it as a hybrid event because it's not, I don't think it'll be as successful that way. I don't know, I definitely want to eat my cake and still have it with this. It's hard to know, because we haven't been so successful virtually, but we had the DevCon for US event in Boston here a little while ago, it was just so nice in-person and there's things that happen that way that we can't replicate virtually, so we have to find a way to do both. I don't know the answer. That's basically my... I listen to it with that, the kind of experience that the person who are over there, they would have and the ones who would be joining via their phones, their laptops, their PCs, won't be the same. Also, the point that someone put forward, let's have a piece around that, let's put it out in the public, make people know about it in comm blocks that this is something that you can make happen and the mind share is there to help you. In that way, this objective won't just have a lot of positive arteries, but the fact that people would know that well, they can and they are actually appreciated when they do events like this. Sorry, go ahead, Mari. Totally, okay. Just in the last couple of months, we've had a handful of hatches. We had eight hatches. We have a release party coming up in October in Brazil. We had something called the Fedora Explorer Day, so it was like to introduce new people to Fedora and that was in Panama. So I think we're slowly, but surely seeing ambassadors kind of reactivate. And I think that the point about the release party is like, we have one that's proposed right now, but there's definitely budget to fund more release parties. So I'd love to see that happen. And the other point about hybrid events, I kind of agree with Matthew that, doing a hybrid event, it's not as good for the folks who are online. It's just not going to replicate. It's nice to bring that accessibility so that people can be watching as it's happening. But it's almost easier to watch that on your own time, just the sessions that you want to see rather than try to watch on some other time zone and catch the talk that you want to see. So I'd really like to see the virtual release parties. I think that they're great. I think that they're even more user-focused than Nest is. So it's a great way to inspire folks who are users to become contributors. I have heard many like personal anecdotes of people who are like, I went to this release party and the community was so great. It made me want to start contributing. So I think what's great about the virtual events is it brings people who wouldn't have normally had the chance but brings them closer to the developers and the people who are most passionate about Fedora. So I definitely don't think those can go away and it's a great pipeline to bring users towards contributing, right? I think the missing flock has been a bummer. I think it's been demoralizing for some of the groups like this one, like Council, like FESCO, like Mindshare who are already investing so much into Fedora and really need that time to get reinvigorated and re-energized and connect with each other. So I don't know if the answer's to totally get rid of Nest but I will say for the next F-cake I'll just advocate for them and say that doing both is not an option, right? It's gonna be one or the other. And from what I've heard from events or my event support or Fedora's event support is that doing a hybrid conference is expensive like being able to stream all different tracks all at once is expensive. And I think it has to do with like bandwidth not just equipment. At a lot of the hotels we've looked at having just the bandwidth to do a hybrid event was more expensive than people staying there in terms of cost. So yeah. Yeah. So we'd either have to do a lot more fundraising to make that possible or maybe have some combination of lock happening and then also hatches. Like if people wanted to do a local contributor event around the same time as flock I think that's really doable. But it's a lot of work. I know that a few people on this call organized one. So it's definitely not a small undertaking. So if I might as someone who is not one of these people who's up there at the top doing this thing but actually experiences these events I find it's really easy to be disengaged from virtual events and while that hasn't been as much of the case with Nest the reality is that now that people have kind of figured out you can be disengaged from virtual events especially those who are working during the work week like I do during a lot of these. I don't really, most people don't really get time to just allocate to the event anymore. And it doesn't work from that perspective. And so like if I were to make a choice between having Nest and flock I would actually go for flock because it's more fully engaging. And while the number of people that show up are smaller that's obviously true because of all the other reasons that have been said. We tend to get more high quality conversations. We also get to be able to do, we get to build the relationships a lot more easily than we can with a lot of these virtual events. That's not to say that they don't have their place. I think the release parties being virtual and things of that nature are very useful. Like when we started doing hats we didn't have release parties. Like now that we have release parties which I think should stay virtual I think there's room for us to put Nest back into the corner and start flocking to Fedora again because we have this good balance of regular virtual events and then a regular annual in-person event to bring people together. And there's no reason we couldn't do ad hoc or other more focused virtual events too for other people. It's not like setting those up is particularly difficult. It's just really the planning and getting a group of people to wanna do something. So I think I agree with that. Yeah, so like if we wanna spend our focus on a high value cross functional project wide event I think flock is the one we should be spending that on. And one thing I want to add for people who might be who have never gone to a flock or just joining the project or just watching this video one of the things we really tried to prioritize and I think is pretty unique actually is getting people to flock. So flock is supposed to be a contributor conference for people who are active in the project and some conferences do travel funding for speakers. We actually try to do need based funding for people who are active contributors who we want here together at this conference no matter where you are in the world when you're an active contributor and have something your presence there will be important and we will try and get you there. That's where we prioritize spending our money on this conference over getting a fancy speaker or even over the parties like getting people there is really important to us. And I think that's something that will stay and maybe should advertise a little bit too as we go if we can't go back to in-person because I think that accessibility is important too even though obviously it will never be as accessible as virtual for people but we want to make that we do want to continue with that. We're running out of time here and it's kind of gone a little bit off the ambassador's discussion but I do have lots of thoughts about events. We should maybe have a call or a meeting just talking about our events plan coming up. I guess anyone else have anything quick about the ambassadors? I guess my only question is do we have a stamp of approval and we're gonna update council docs and say it's completed and where are we feeling or what do we think about that? Yeah, I think that's where we are. I don't, I think, any objections? Let's call it done. Congratulations, I don't know, we seem like there should be some sort of completion objective badge or something. I don't know. Ben, is that you in the chat saying you're gonna do the paperwork? Yes, it is. I love you, Ben, you're the best. Yes. And also I love all of you, you're wonderful, this is amazing. Thank you, I really appreciate this and it's nice to see all of this and thank you again for all of your work. Yes. And now it's the part of the meeting where I surprise Ben by asking him what our next video call is going to be. Hi, I was prepared for you this time. Aha! It will be, we will finally have the Amazon Linux call with Tom Calloway and some of his friends at Amazon. That will be October 12th at 10 a.m. Eastern.