 And welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. This is, say, August the 5th in 2021, and therefore you're watching America finding its way. I'm your host, Stephanie Stull Dalton. Our show topic today is to review what we know of the week's proceedings regarding the select committee investigation into the January 6th attack on the Capitol. We have assembled an informed Think Tech group of guests to discuss the challenges and the progress and the prospects for the select committee to get to its truth and to find out what was going on and how it all happened. So I want to welcome the members of the panel. There's J. Fidal and we have Tim Apachella and then Winston Welch is with us today too. So thank you guys for all taking the time to be here and indulging me on this topic, which actually there's been not so much reporting in headlines in the major newspaper. So I think that we're in a situation where they're doing work according to one of the members representative Aguilar from California Democrat, of course, that they are intent on issuing and inviting many, many people into the committee in order to get as much information as they can on all of the activities and movements of people that surrounded the president and had anything to do with what was going on that day. So he said he didn't report on exactly any finding and any response to having those subpoenas out, but I think we're gonna be finding out who is gonna respond and who's not. So that's one of my questions that I'd like to ask J is if they're gonna send out enormous, numerous subpoenas to people that were involved or around or near or in association with the president on that day, because there's not much known about what the president was doing that day. There had been some vague references to watching television and family in and out, but there's no consensus on the minute by minute activity of the president, which is what the members of the committee are intent on discovering for the activities that day in the White House. So do you think, Jay, that anybody that gets a subpoena who is in that group is gonna respond to it or what? Because it hasn't been a successful approach in the past, in the impeachments and the other investigations. Can you opine on what's gonna happen to this? Oh, I'll give you a very strong maybe. That maybe they might come to the subpoena. I mean, like- They might not, but I'd like to digress for a moment. I keep thinking of Gerald Ford. Gerald Ford getting off a plane and somebody said, can he walk and chew gum at the same time? And the answer was maybe. And now we have a government, and we have to ask the same question. Can the government walk and chew gum at the same time? And we have a media that clearly cannot. I know more about Governor Cuomo's life and his dalliances than I know what happened on January 6th. I know more about Governor Cuomo than the committee does about what happened on January 6th. It's really extraordinary how we have gone so far off the track. This thing started like 10 days ago and all we've heard since is Governor Cuomo. And of course, don't forget FungiNail. We know a lot about FungiNail too, if we watch MSNBC. You guys know about FungiNail, right? It's one of those medical commercials they play until you blew in the face. So, you know, my problem is, you know, we talked to a researcher in Brussels this morning. And we asked her about, you know, how COVID was doing and how the public was doing and how the EU was doing. And it all sounded so totally rational and understanding and organized and efficient. So different than what we have in the US. It's really extraordinary. So my answer is, I'm not sure. And I'm not sure what they're doing. I'm not sure what that committee is doing. Everything seems to be getting in the way. They started, they had one day of hearings and they gave everybody a thrill with the policemen. Since then, why? We don't know. We don't know about the subpoenas. And we don't know about what's going on and what they're learning. This thing is moving at a snail's pace. And I think it's because the old gum chewing problem, they can't do two things at once. And I include the Democrats, you know, Congress in general cannot chew gum and walk at the same time. Bottom line is this does not make me feel very confident about that committee and how much evidence they're gonna get and how much circus they're gonna have. But frankly, after the last two weeks, after the last eight months, I really doubt we're ever gonna find out what happened. So the answer is maybe. Well, I think that this is very disappointing to have this stall right out of the gate. As you said, we had the drama of the police and now there's very little in the press about actually what's going on. Did they issue the subpoenas or not? And there was a vague, it was vague what it is that the representative that I mentioned said. But I think that we have this relates to kind of a confidence of the people, the Americans in this committee effort. And the latest polls, Quinniac polls are saying that and other polls, Quinniac University and other polls, that a majority of Americans, 57% say that the storming of the Capitol on January 6th was an attack on democracy and that it should never be forgotten. And at the same time, 38% that too much is being made out of the storming of the US Capitol and it is time to move on. So that is kind of a bipolar look at it, right? So you've got your 57 or... Well, time does not work toward the truth here. This should have been done months ago and every day the metronome ticks by, the public gets more confused and the press would love to make opinions without having the facts. And so what we have here is other interceding distractions and more coming, lots more coming before we ever get to the bedrock on this. So I'm not, I know the people want to hear it. I don't know how many polls I've received, how many emails I've received asking me whether I wanted to see a commission. And some of them I asked until I got into a North Sea about getting all those emails. I think the public has spoken. We want a commission, we want a committee, we want an investigation. So the attorney general is not doing anything. We have these prosecutions going on, but they are not about January 6th. They're about other things. We don't know what the FBI is doing. We don't know a lot about the prosecutions. We have two so far that were reported, both small potatoes actually. The whole thing has slipped behind the screen or maybe slipped out completely. So I don't know what you other guys feel about this, but I am not happy with this committee or the commission or the ability of the government to investigate what is a threat to democracy and what the people want to investigate. Well, I think that that's the point. That's where we are right now, but it is that the Americans do support at 63% the congressional investigation of it, okay? And the only 32 of the Republicans do. So there's a huge disparity, surprise, surprise between what it is the Republicans want and the Dems and that support is wide. So 29% support it of the Republicans and 91% of the Democrats. Totally, it's 63% of the Americans pull that they do support it. But it's all Democratic, 91% that want it. And the question that they asked was, do you support or oppose the congressional investigation of the storming of the US Capitol on January the 6th? So this is about the wishes of the American people and that is supported by that they are interested in making it happen, but not at the level. I mean, it's at a high level, but if we stall and it continues to not happen, it will die. Or what do you think, Tim, if we don't get more action that's shared with the public, what's that effect on you as an American viewer and your peers? I'm just glad I'm not in Congress because I probably would be despised by my fellow Congressman, because once again, the Democrats are taking a soup ladle to a knife fight. If you're gonna investigate, please, start issuing subpoenas. And unlike the Mueller investigation two years, three years ago, if they fail to respond, haul them in. Now, everyone has the right to evoke their Fifth Amendment rights for self-incrimination, but we wanna see them in front of Congress in a chair saying they evoke their Fifth Amendment rights. They don't get to sit in their chair in their office going, I'm not gonna answer the subpoena, I'm not gonna respond because they just know I'm gonna evoke my Fifth Amendment. No, haul there, you know what in, set them down in a chair and have them do that in front of 25 different cameras. So, but we're not seeing that from the committee. What we're getting, I hate to say it, it's an emotional warm blanket testimony from Capitol Police, which they were severely beaten, both psychologically and physically. We know to what extent, we've been watching the videos for months and they're gonna get the Congressional Gold Medal today. That's true, they are getting. You know, I understand the value of setting the stage of emotions so that you can persuade the American public that this was more than just a tourist walk on a Sunday afternoon. This was a serious insurrection, it was a serious attack. I understand the strategy of building up the emotions, but gosh darn it, get the subpoenas moving. Get, you know, get the Ecolees in the seats in front of these congressmen, in front of this committee and start answering questions. And again, you wanna evoke the Fifth? Fine, but let us watch you evoke the Fifth. Yes, and with that 63% wishing to have, did that approve of and support for the investigation? The other question had to do with that the significant policy changes that people expect to have or not from the committee. And that is much more disappointing because that the numbers are high that only about 60% are, well, actually it's only 30% that think that anything is gonna come out of it and 60% twice as many people think that nothing is gonna happen as a result of it. So I agree with you that if they don't get something to happen and get them actually in there, it's gonna make a difference. What do you think, Winston? Are you expecting big things to happen? I'm not expecting big things to happen. Hopefully some truth will come out that we will have at least documented. But I was shocked by the poll that came out yesterday. It was in People Magazine, I think. And it said that 60% of Americans, say Donald Trump 2024 bid would be bad for the country according to a poll. I didn't see that. That's 60%. Of course it's 95% Democrats and the majority of Republicans thought this would be great. Majority of independents thought it wouldn't be good. So at least we're moving in some direction that says it's not 50% at least or less than 50%. So, but like you said, it's bipolar. It's really alternate realities that we're dealing with here. And, you know, either this was a patriotic expression of discontent or it was a murderous assault on the Capitol. And obviously for people that are thinking rationally, these people's lives were under threat. They were only saved by valiant efforts of these police officers who absolutely deserve a congressional gold medal. You know, what we're seeing though, I think is that while the committee might be a little bit seemingly silent right now, these, the machine is working. We're going to get the testimonies. And it's, are they going to show up for their subpoenas? Probably not be held in contempt of Congress. Probably so. And what will that mean? Probably nothing. But the other stuff is going to come out, the emails, the text, whatever was on paper. You saw where the Department of Justice, they're turning over documents now where they asked in MSNBC, had an article that the DOG official had prepped to ask GOP in six states to avoid the Biden win. You have other things that are slowly coming out. I think, you know, there's a good article about how the mayor of Miami is prepping for a post-Trump GOP. And so he is not beholden to the forces that were before and there's some good information on those sorts of things that are coming up in these elections that don't show that this is just one unified party under a cult leader anymore, that slowly it's cracking. Now, is it going to happen in a day? No, but I think as time goes by, people are exhausted and that's why they don't expect anything to happen from it. And, you know, even if the truth, as 100% came out, said that this was, here's the note from the White House. It's not a smoking gun, it's an absolute note. It's not going to change anything because those same people will say, well, good for him. He sent those people there and that's what they needed. But, you know, as we saw also in the Reuters memo that we've allowed the, they're going to allow the release of his taxes, of course, of Trump's taxes, but now he's going to fight it. How long will that last? How long will the appeals last? We don't know. Yeah, but that's an important part of this. And then also we've been to Benghazi about seven times. So the Republicans, you know, tormented the country with multiple meetings and commissions on Benghazi. And even with a leader in the, with O'Coley, as Tim says in the seat, testifying for up to 12 hours at times. And we don't see any of that repeated by these people. So what is it that we know now about the vaunted Republican principles of government? I mean, they're not, I mean, for instance, GOP has conveyed martyr status on the Ashley Babbitt who was killed as she charged the police in the House chamber when she entered with the rest of that violent mob. And then when the announcement of two more deaths this week of our police, capital police officers who were in the melee, that was met, they gave no signs of remorse or certainly no honor by the Republicans. So what does this say about where they are in terms of what their principles? Many people say, oh, it's okay for these Republicans to be quiet because, you know, they are about the principles of the party, which that's what they're focusing on, not the personalities. But what about long order? What about respect for the police? What about the equal and impartial administration of justice? Where is, where is any of this Jay anymore? Is it totally gone? The focus has to be what happened and we're not finding out what happened. And neither are they finding out what happened. We are being distracted every day. These issues are secondary to finding the facts. And as I said before, we're making all kinds of opinions and looking into all kinds of areas before we even know what happened. I am so disappointed that I say that before in the Democrats, you know, who could have started a real investigation months ago. So what we have is all that soup about the members of the police force and then medals and it's theater. It's entertainment. It's, but it's certainly not fact-finding. I want to know what happened. I mean, I think there are some people in the country want to know what happened. And we're not even close to that. We're not even close to finding out what we need to find out. If they want to make public, you know, disclosures and press about this, if they want to entertain us with theater fine, but don't represent that they're actually doing an investigation for the benefit of the public when they are not. It's not happening. I'm very disappointed in the Democrats. You know, we're getting closer to the November 22 elections and this is very important. What's going to happen? You want my prediction. I'd be interested in how you guys feel about this is it's going to drag on, which is exactly what the GOP wants. They want it to drag on so they can make lies about it. They can build their own phony facts about it and we'll never find out. And it'll be in a state of complete confusion by the time of that election. And none, repeat, none of the other issues will be resolved. The metronome ticks on and none of Biden's, you know, legislation. Well, I guess he had one bill way back when, but that was kind of it. I want to see some action here. And I said before I was concerned that the Democrats can't walk in, or the Congress can't walk in Chugun at the same time. I'm not sure they can either walk or Chugun. Right now, zero functionality. Yeah, and I think the problem that looms is also the Republicans have started their script. They had their critiques early on and now of the committee and how it's not going to work. And now you're starting to hear it come back up again. So I found a whole list of what is their agenda and their script. I mean, and we've heard this, that they're going to come back and do these attacks on the scope is too narrow. Investigation takes too long. I mean, we're certainly there. And it's too soon to do a commission like this because we don't know enough and we're not getting to know enough and that they're saying things like there's no need to investigate past events. But all of these are things that are coming up and getting are deflecting from what it is that they're supposed to be doing. And there's a whole list and there are all the people that were nominated for the committee and also the other Republicans who are making comments that the investigation is only meant to benefit Democrats politically and that the Justice Department should handle the investigation. So all of this stuff is just all ready to come rolling back out of the mouths or talking points for that. So what, yeah, so getting back to you, Tim, then is there any hope that this is, are you feeling positive? Do you see that there's potential here or are you suspicious they're falling back? What are we to make of this? What to make of it? You know, I get a sense. Now, you know, this is a theory. I have just my own personal belief. I get a sense that Democrats are following an old, old playbook, a political playbook that was effective maybe back in the pre-Obama years or certainly pre-Trump years that if you can string this thing out and then release the report in September, 2021, two months before the 2022 election, somehow all these things will come to light and Americans will be shocked and they'll be appalled and that will force them, you know, that will persuade them to vote for the Democrats. That playbook is gone. If that's their strategy, which I think it probably is, they better get off it. I couldn't agree with Jay Moore. Find out what you need to find out now before the Republicans can reconstruct a narrative that you can't argue out of. And they're not doing it. They're stringing it along because maybe they want the final read report to come out at a devastating time just prior to the 2022 election. That's a bad strategy. Find out what you need to find out now, right now, and don't hesitate. All right. Well, Winston, what are you making of this situation that we're in? You know, right now, I think people are simply exhausted. They're fatigued from everything COVID and this January 6th, they want to forget it. I think it, I could never understand why when, you know, you go to, I would go to Europe then or even countries that experienced civil war and the people really didn't want to talk about it. It was just so traumatic on their brains that they just, they didn't want to talk about it. They just wanted it swept under the rug. It was like a bad divorce or just a fight. And you knew that no one was going to win, that they were just, had gone to their corners and that was it. I think we kind of feel the same way here and people are just like, we have talked about this ad nauseam. It's just like the people that haven't gotten vaccinated. Do you think another story about getting vaccinated or how COVID grace are affecting people who aren't vaccinated is going to help them? It's not helping at all. They're not going to get vaccinated anymore than they were beforehand. I don't think, I mean, it doesn't seem to be moving anything. But as the federal judge told Representative Morris, Mo Brooks, he wanted to have immunity covered under the Westfall Act that shields employees from being sued from their words or actions in the course of their employment. And they said, this was a message to Donald Trump, a co-defendant in the case that said, it is not that inciting an attack on Congress is not within the scope of employment of a representative or any federal employee. So the government sends a clear message here. No leader in our government is acting within the scope of his employment when he acts to subvert the free and fair election by getting people to go up and riot and interfere. The leaders who perpetrated these travesties are personally responsible for their actions. At the end of the day, we will find some things. We will find the Jim Jordan's, if he's capable. We'll find the other people who are capable. But at the end of the day, we just have to hope that that people poll that we just talked about earlier just keeps going up and up. And people realize this was a terrible time for America. But as, you know, Robert Reich had a really good editorial in The Guardian just a couple of days ago. And it was August 3rd and he talks that this was not just an aberration of a lunatic saying that it was an election was stolen from him, that this wasn't the dustbin of history. He said he's turned one of America's major political parties into his own cult and cast the major political division in the U.S. as a class between those who believe him about the election and those who do not. And that this represents the largest internal threat to American democracy to the civil war. He's like, well, Jay, he says, what's to do about it? Find it, fight it. The sooner, the better. So we'll see what happens out of this. There's not a lot of stomach anywhere to do this because I think people just want to, like Tim said, maybe it's a long strategy play. I don't know that any amount of information coming out is going to change anyone's opinion on this, but maybe the slow and steady will change the soccer moms in the purple states. We've already done that with the Mueller report and that went out with a nothing burger. Well, I think, yeah, but you mentioned Benghazi. Did Benghazi change the Democrats' mind about Hillary? Probably not because it was seen as this partisan thing. So I think right now let's just have the slow and steady drip so that people say, wow, this guy was so corrupt and he had all these cronies behind him. And so maybe over time, we'll get some traction on that. But with the Voting Rights Act and all the other things that are being shoved through right now and attacks on our democracy that are still going on, I'm not hopeful in many ways about that. Yeah, and I was thinking, Jay, that maybe there needs to be some drama, because as I understand it, the subpoena, you used to have handcuffs on if you would get dragged in in handcuffs if you didn't come to the subpoena. And then there's a second thing that they can do to you, put you in the jailhouse. But we're, and now they don't do anything and let all these people just, and even with the Clinton trial, remember they had a person in jail who wouldn't testify. But I guess that has to do with the rights of the committee or what it is that the committee can impose on people. But how can we get that drama back so that when the subpoena goes out, it's serious? Do you think they're working on that maybe behind the scenes? I don't wanna put you on the spot that you would know. No, I think they're in the headlines. I don't think they know what they wanna do. I don't think they do anything. I think that probably they have a lot of staffers researching what's in the newspaper or what the FBI may deign to give them. But the bottom line is subpoena practice right now is in a cocked hat. This is a reality show, not a legal proceeding. They're afraid to issue subpoenas because if they issue them, the GOP will not respond. And then it'll be embarrassed and there's really nothing they can do in the face of public opinion that quote wants to move on. So I think it's getting weaker all the time in the drip method that Winston been talking about is gonna drip against the Democrats. By the time we get another six months, people will be really fed up with the nothing burger and they won't wanna hear another word about it and it will have no effect on the November 22 elections. It's really a sad story here because we have a reality show, not a congressional proceeding. And let me also add that I wanna know which of those congressmen and senators, 147 of them, who voted against confirmation of the electoral college voting, okay, were involved, were implicated, had participated beforehand, knew about it and did nothing. I wanna know who they are. And I wanna know their connections. I wanna know the organizations that were putting this together. We don't know that. We simply don't know it and we're not getting any closer to knowing it. And for some reason, the Democrats don't wanna find out. I am morally certain myself that a lot of those 147 guys were implicated. And unfortunately, and that would mean a lot to know that. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we're gonna know it. Well, Tim, what do you think we're gonna finish up here with you and then Winston briefly? But what do you think we can know, Tim? Do you think this commission can pull the rabbit out with all the details as Liz Cheney said they wanted to do and the others are? Yeah, I think ultimately they can. I agree with Jay 100% and Winston 100% is do they have the metal to do the hard job of finding the truth? Yes, the answer is yes, they can. We talked about this, I think on your last show last week is get the documents first as if this is a legal proceeding that you're in the phase of discovery. Get all those documents, subpoena the documents and then set the people down and say, I have this document with your name on it, did you or did you not say the following, blah, blah, blah? And then have them respond. But apparently they're not getting the documents fast enough either. So you can't say this enough. We've already said it is the longer this thing drips out the more people, they're not gonna care anymore. So let's go and to answer your question, yeah, they could do it if they want to, if they know how to move and move quickly. All right, well, we'll be watching for this. Winston, do you think we'll see something shortly because they will prove their metal, they're gonna come out of a planning period and get on with it? What do you think is gonna happen? Aren't they on vacation right now? I think everyone's kind of taking a vacation. Mentally. As we're surging, I just, as we were speaking, we have a different crisis. We had the highest count since the pandemic started in Hawaii with 655 new cases, 166 new hospitalizations yesterday. So we've got our own issues right here that are very close to home. And I think in the same way that we're working with people and living with people and love people who are not understanding this virus and the truth behind the virus and protection behind it. And they have their documentation and their sources and all of that. It's the same with the whole thing about the coup and the Donald and all of that. We have to reach out to, now that the hot fire is out, but the embers are still there, we've gotta reach out. We have to meet with our relatives, our families, our friends, our coworkers, and just try and say, I'm trying to understand what it is you're still believing or supporting here. And let's just have a kind of an honest conversation because you probably have a couple good points inside of all of the trash, but the rest of it, we just have to have these honest conversations to help people understand there is truth. And if we can have the same shared understandings, it's gonna be step by steps and gradually those numbers will shift, whether it's on COVID or whether it's on Donald Trump or in the future of our nation. But we do, let's start small, let's start large, let's start all over the place. And the shoring up that we have to do, it's not gonna be solved in a day, it's not gonna be solved in a month, it's not gonna be solved with this commission. I'm kidding, I don't know how long it's gonna take. But right for now, speaking of time, it's Aloha time and we have to wrap it up. So thanks to Tim AppChello, to Winston Welch and Jay Fiedel for this critical conversation. I'm Stephanie Stoll Dalton, hosting for America Finding Its Way on Thick Tech, Hawaii. And I thank you very much for your viewership and Aloha. Aloha.