 I'm Marsha Joyner, and this is Cannabis Chronicles, a 10,000-year odyssey. And today, unlike 10,000 years ago, we are going to talk about what is going on in Hawaii right this minute. And my guest is Dr. Clifton Otto. And for those of you that have been following this cannabis issue for the last 20 years, you all know Dr. Otto. And in fact, when we first came on the air with Cannabis Chronicles, Dr. Otto was one of our very first guests, and I have always turned to him as the expert in the legalese, not only of the medicine, but of the legalese. And so today, we are going to talk about Bill HB290. Is that the right number? Dr. Otto. Yep, that's the one. Okay. Tell us about HB290. Well, so HB290 is, I guess you could also call it the Inter-Island Transportation Bill. It started off as an amendment to the Uniform Control Substances Act update bill that was going to put FDA-approved PPD oil into state Schedule 5. And I submitted some testimony suggesting that the legislature add language that would specifically protect the inter-island transportation of Cannabis for personal medical use by our pensions, because this is an area where there is still some confusion about whether this is legal activity or not. So now, what I understand from the bill is that if he vetoes it, then that means you cannot fly with your packaged legal-purchased cannabis. You can't fly with it. Is that what this says? If he vetoes it? This bill is actually a response to a current policy of our local law enforcement agencies of not allowing patients to fly to other islands based on an assumption that the medical use of cannabis in Hawaii violates federal law. So this is a practice that's already going on, even though state law already authorizes dispensaries to transport to other areas for testing purposes. And some would argue it already allows patients to transport if they are only doing it for their own personal medical use. So if you live on Molokai, which does not have any dispensaries and very little commerce, and you legal have medical cannabis that you take twice a day, maybe, and you work on Maui like most people in Molokai do, they work on Maui. So you would fly to Maui because now there's no more ferries. You would fly to Maui, go to work, and then come back. So that's an everyday thing. So that means that if he vetoes this bill, they can't do that. Is that my understanding? Well, the state is already saying that patients cannot do that. They can't do that. Correct. And it's not even based on an interpretation of state law. It's based on a assumption that the medical use of cannabis in Hawaii violates federal law. And this is the piece that really needs to change. But you bring up a very important point because patients may need to use their cannabis for personal medical use during the day. It might be a preparation that is only CBD, and so it doesn't make them high. Everything they can use at work in the workplace without being impaired. So yes, you're very correct. And this issue of patients from islands like Molokai who need to travel with their state-approved medicine to other islands in order to make a livelihood. Well, yeah, because you don't have to smoke it. You can put it under your tongue. Exactly. Or it might be a topical lotion or a transdermal patch or like you said, something that's taken by mouth. So yes, smoking is not the uniform way that patients are using this. And according to the rules that I read, the space aeronautical space rules, it says that you cannot, the pilot has to, if he knows that this is on board, he can't do this. And that is opiates, which are prescription, alcohol, it says, it spells out whiskey and wine and marijuana. That's what it says. Now, and we know that they do transport whiskey and wine. And if you're taking opiates for pain, you've got that. All of which are packaged. We're not talking about opening them. So what is the difference? That's my whole thing. Sure. The difference is that cannabis does a controlled substance, alcohol, opiates, actually opiates are controlled substances as well. Opiates are number two on the schedule. They are number two, but patients aren't allowed to legally possess schedule to controlled substances as long as they have a prescription. So in that case, there was no potential conflict with carrying a controlled substance. But in the case of cannabis, we have a very unique situation where Hawaii has exercised its authority to give medical use to controlled substances. And it's done this for a schedule one controlled substance, which has never been done before with any other controlled substances in Hawaii. And that medical use has a direct impact upon the Federal Control Substances Act, which says that substance with expected medical use cannot be in schedule one. So that's the piece that's missing. We need recognition that the accepted medical use of cannabis in Hawaii is not violating federal law. Well, now, and you know this, that the federal government has a patent dated 1945, one of the first patents for cannabis, and it lists all of the medical things that it takes care of medical use. And yet on the schedule one, there is no medical use. Now, that schedule was put into place in 1970 with the Federal Control Substances Act. There was no FDA approved medical use of cannabis in 1970. So they put it into that schedule, not knowing what else to do with it, thinking that the Shaker Report would probably call some changes in the scheduling of cannabis. And we all know that that was kind of thrown by the wayside. And we've been dealing with this schedule one placement ever since, which was actually supposed to be just an initial placement, wasn't meant to be permanent. And at that time, no state had expected the medical use of cannabis, not until 1996 when California became the first. So ever since then, that's when we can start to say that there is accepted medical use of cannabis in the United States. Well, I mean, even though the federal government's patent said it was, they just ignored that, is that, is that what? Well, so the government can patent certain uses that could be applied later to an FDA-approved drug product. But cannabis itself is still just a plant and is being kept in Federal Schedule One. You can make a very good argument that now that we have Epidiolex that is FDA-approved CP oil made in England, that cannabis must have medical use because we're deriving Epidiolex from the plant. This is not a synthetic compound. So like opium and poppy and coca, from which we derive morphine and cocaine. Those plants are all Schedule Two, which recognizes their medical use. But they have approved drug products made from them. And that's where we're lacking. It'll be very interesting to see what changes once Epidiolex becomes available by prescription in Hawaii. But that's a very different argument. And we're talking now about FDA-approved accepted medical use. What I'm referring to is state-accepted medical use, which is also a valid type of accepted medical use. But now the state says that it is okay to use medical cannabis. And we've been doing that since, what, 19, 20 years now? So what happened? The way I read it, and I said so in my article, that apparently the Attorney General and the Governor's Office says in the rationale that it looks to me like they did not read the 20 years of bills and all the documents that have gone into getting us to 20 years of using medical cannabis. And now all of a sudden they write some really crazy stuff if they had read all of the documents that have gotten us to this point. Well, you know, unfortunately this rationale has been going on since day one. Governor Capitano, when they were considering this program, decided that they would not go to the Department of Justice and consult with them on this because they figured the defense would not approve it anyway because they didn't think cannabis had medical use, which ignores the impact of state-accepted medical use upon the Federal Control Substances Act. So this rationale that the medical use of cannabis in Hawaii violates federal law has been ongoing for the past 19 years because the state has not gone back to the Department of Justice and told them that this is legitimate, accepted medical use, and that the Federal Regulation that still has cannabis listed as a Schedule 1 controlled substance should not be applied to the medical use of cannabis in Hawaii. Well, however, we do have it in its legal, the dispensaries of working, and the state of Hawaii issues you a card. And it doesn't matter where you live, like I said with Molokai or Lanai or some of these other islands that do not have dispensaries. And they issue the card knowing very well that there's no way for you to get to the dispensary and get it home. So that's an undue burden. Really the state has placed on patients. It's an undue burden and to deny them the right to get a legal medicine and then deny them the right to take it home. That is just unacceptable. And that is state-sponsored discrimination. And that's the only way I can see it, just knowing this. And that's when the Governor, if he vetoes this, that is what he's doing. He is, you know, against his constitutional right, and he's violating that. He's violating the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the ADA. Oh, my goodness. We need to take a break. When we come back, Cliff, let's talk about those kinds of things. What's the remedy? Okay? Sounds good. Aloha. I'm Gwen Harris, the host here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of the supporters to keep ongoing. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. Aloha. I'm Dalen Yanagida, a host here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep ongoing. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thank you so much. Aloha. I'm Marcia Joyner, and we are talking with Dr. Cliff Otto, who is an eye specialist, and he is on Maui in the middle of the day, and he is with a patient, so hopefully he'll get back to us pretty soon. But in the meantime, I really want to do a commentary. It's in today's civil beat, but I want to read it to you. And just to let you know where I come from about this whole idea of the state violating basic civil rights. I was born into Jim Crow and came of age during the civil rights movement. When state sponsored discrimination was everywhere, yeah, I had a part in the civil rights movement. I was arrested when I was three years old when my parents put me on a swing in a park for whites only. I was the first colored girl to graduate from an integrated school in Baltimore, Maryland. I walked picket lines, participated in sit-ins and demonstrations, and I ended jail for the audacity to ask for a Tencent hamburger at the White Castle. I faced death at the hands of angry white mob. When I tried to register to vote, so imagine the horror to see that the governor of Hawaii is planning to veto a bill that gives everyone who has a medical cannabis card the right to fly from island to island with their medicine. Governor Igay is displaying discriminatory practices with the veto's HB290 because it's on his possible list. The measure authorized qualified patients to transport medical cannabis between the islands for personal medical use. Yet Governor Igay has signaled that he will veto it. And with the stroke of a pen, he will violate his oath of office as well as the Civil Rights Act and the ADA. Since airplanes are the major means of transportation between the Hawaiian Islands, denying Hawaii state certified medical cannabis patients the use of public accommodations to transport their legally acquired medical cannabis to their home and work is state-sponsored discrimination. There are only eight dispensaries in the state of Hawaii. Not every island has a dispensary. Hawaii state health department issues medical cannabis to authorize medical patients regardless of where they live. By vetoing this HB290, it places an undue burden on medical cannabis patients. The most popular recreational nerve depressant is alcohol, which affects the brain. Alcohol is associated with aggressive acts of violence, like assault and rape. Oxycodone is considered a Schedule II drug with high potential for abuse, defendants, and death. Medical cannabis doesn't come near anywhere close to that problem. Anyone can package whiskey, wine, oxycodone on airplanes between the islands. So what's it going to take for the governor to recognize that medical cannabis use in Hawaii does not violate federal law? Apparently the attorney general, who has the rulemaking power, has not read all the Medical Cannabis Act. The rules that have been passed over 19 years about this, the first one being Hawaii was the first state to pass a bill changing the name from marijuana to cannabis because marijuana is derogatory. On the first date in the nation to do so, the office of the governor and attorney general have not gotten that message or simply do not care. The position taken by the attorney general on behalf of Governor Igay ignores the authority that is reserved to the states to determine the medical use of controlled substance under the 10th Amendment to the United States Constitution and confirmed by the Supreme Court Gonzales v. Oregon 2006, the state of Hawaii determines cannabis has accepted medical use. Since 2000 cannabis is accepted medical use for treatment in the state of Hawaii, which means that a scheduled one substance does not apply to medical use of cannabis in Hawaii. Since the rationale for vetoing HB290 declares that medical cannabis in Hawaii violates federal law, people with disabilities are not allowed the protection of the American with Disabilities Act. This is state-sponsored discrimination. So we need for all of you to write to the governor, call the governor, do whatever you have to do to tell him that he cannot veto this bill. And Cliff, are you back with us? Yes, I'm here. This is, I'm so proud of you. And so thank that you take time from your patience to be with us for this very special day. Well, it's a very special issue. Thank you for covering it. And so what are we going to do? What is it going to take to get the governor to understand what we have to do? What is it going to take? You raise a very important issue in your commentary about the fact that the governor, by waiting of saying that our medical use of cannabis violates federal law, prevents our patients from enjoying protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act. And as you mentioned earlier, yes, we do have dispensaries that are open and operational, but they do not enjoy having regular bank accounts because of this myth that our program is violating federal law. There are many unintended consequences of this inappropriate application of federal schedule and regulation to our medical program. Transportation, banking, the University of Hawaii and all of its amazing research facilities are not able to participate in this because of a fear of losing federal funding. There are just so many issues that are a direct result of the fact that our state is not standing up for the accepted medical use of cannabis in Hawaii. What do we do? What can we do? Now, you know, we have to take this in our own hands. Obviously, we can't wait on the governor. What do we do? Where do we go from here? Well, I think it's important to try and exhaust all administrative remedies for our current situation. And I think that involves trying to have a dialogue with the governor's office and discuss this issue directly rather than just getting rationals that are issued about bills that are going to be potentially vetoed. I received an email today from the Attorney General's office because I asked them to please show me where the medical use of cannabis in Hawaii violates federal law. And they gave me two citations that are basically applications of the criminal code to people who are possessing a Schedule 1 control substance or any control substance, for that matter, without a prescription or an order from a doctor. And so... But we have that. We have that. It's not a prescription, though. That's the issue. Cannabis is not being prescribed because it's not FDA-approved, which means that it's not FDA-approved. Exactly. So... Dr. Treypers Christians for aspirin? Aspirin is a different type of medical use. It's a grandfathered medical use because it's been around forever. But it's not... But that's what... It's a weed. I mean, it's a tree. Tree bark. Yeah. Exactly. So this doesn't always follow the most rational approach. This is based on a classification of control substances that depends on how it's being accepted for medical use. And as I've been trying to point out, FDA approval is just one type of accepted medical use. And rather than waiting for Congress to fix a situation that our state created by accepting the medical use of cannabis, I believe it's up to the state to fix this situation. And for some reason, our Office of the Attorney General is adopting a federal supremacy approve, rather than looking at the impact that state law can have upon federal law based on federalism. And I am really hopeful that the Office of the Attorney General will look at this more closely and consider the state medical use argument, which I believe to be valid and has been confirmed by several different independent parties as being accurate and valid. And take a different approach that is based upon the state-accepted medical use of cannabis, which is a very unique perspective to take, because as I mentioned earlier, this is the first time that Hawaii has accepted the medical use of a schedule on control substances. Well, so again, you're saying a dialogue with the Office. How do we do that? How do we get that to happen? Well, so the email that I received from the Attorney General's Office didn't have a contact number and a person to follow up with. So I plan on contacting them after the holiday and see if they're open to a sit-down meeting. But in the meantime, we are very short on time with the veto date approaching July 9th. So we need people, patients who are concerned about this issue, to vary politely, but accurately and concisely contact the Governor's Office, either by email or by phone. But I would like to emphasize that when you deal with an office or an elected official, it's very important that you maintain a professional demeanor and be very polite. You can be persistent, but allowing emotions to get in the way are only going to shut the door to any chance of negotiations. So I would encourage people, and I'm also encouraging our state lawmakers, who made this law in the first place and who I think do have a certain responsibility to make sure that state law is being executed fully by the Office of the Governor to contact the Governor's Office as well. We know there's an abyss caucus within the state legislature, and I've been encouraging those to come together and publicly ask the Governor to address this issue. Well, Cliff, we will do that. We will have people call and write, and we'll link this show to them. So thank you for taking the time away from your patience, and we'll see you next time. Great. Thanks very much, Marcia. Always a pleasure. Aloha.