 Hey everyone, welcome to my show Friday PM. We've got a very interesting show for you tonight. We have gubernatorial candidate, Mr. Sam Hunkler. He's an independent. He's running against Paula Page and Janet Mills. And just to let you all know, early on, we've reached out to them as well. We're a nonpartisan show. We're not trying to promote anybody, nor have anything really against anybody. We just want to learn more about everybody. So Sam, nice to meet you. It's good to see you. So you have a really interesting bio. We'll jump right into that. You're not from Maine. You're from Ohio originally. Is that correct? That's correct. I am from Barnesville, Ohio, which is in southeast Ohio. It's actually part of Appalachia. We're in the Philadelphia Appalachians. And so I'm actually Hillbilly. And so I was the eighth of nine children. I was the seventh of eight boys. There's 25 years between my oldest and youngest brother. And so I spent my whole childhood in Barnesville, Ohio. I first came to Maine when I was 17 years old. At my junior year of high school, I hitchhiked with a friend up to Loring Air Force Base in Limestone because I had a brother in the Air Force there. And I love Maine and I wanted to come back. But that was my first visit here. So my father was a Central Office repairman for the Ohio Bell. My mother was a homemaker and she did everything. We lived on a small farm. Her parents worked dairy farmers. My dad's parents owned a restaurant in town. Interestingly enough, this is a good interesting story about that. They were the only restaurant in town that would serve blacks. Because somewhere in the late 1800s, the family got typhoid. And the only family that would come to help them was the black family. So interestingly, they were the only town in... What year was this? I think they stopped in the early 1950s. This was mainly from 1910 to 1950s. So this was before the Civil Rights Amendment and things like that. So they were kind of progressive in that way. So when I graduated from high school, I went to Oberlin College up in Northern Ohio. And my second semester there as a freshman, I went to France to learn French language, culture, and history. I really haven't spoken French since. But I went there and I was kind of overwhelmed by the whole idea of being pre-med. I thought I wanted to do pre-med, but it seemed like a pretty cutthroat thing. So I ended up graduating there with a BA in biology. And then at that point I was just kind of burnt out from school. So I decided I wanted to do something different for a while and decide where I really wanted to go to medical school. So I joined the Peace Corps. And I went to East Africa, to Kenya, in East Africa. And I was a Bush teacher out in the bush. I was the only white man around for miles. But I was a boarding school. And I taught English and biology there. And I actually ended up meeting my future wife there as well. So that was Kelly Canane from South Portland. And so we met there. And so that was one of the best things I ever did. It was a great, great experience being in Kenya. And so let's just talk briefly about what for those who don't know, actually I feel like the Peace Corps was something much more well known than very, very younger people might not even know. Like in a nutshell, what does one do in the Peace Corps? What were you doing? You were just teaching, was it English? Teaching general sciences? What was it again? Yeah, the Peace Corps do is to aid or to help countries. Actually the country actually asked the Peace Corps for what they want. The Peace Corps doesn't say that we're going to give you this. The Peace Corps would go to countries and say, would you like us to send some people to do whatever? Yeah. And when we went, there was one of the biggest groups that went to Kenya. And the majority of us were teachers. We were science teachers. Science teachers. But there was also one guy who went over there to work with bees. And a couple other people went over to work with co-ops. But we were there as science teachers. And so we went over there and we spent the first three months in training. Because we had to, number one, learn Swahili. And the second thing, we just learned about the educational system. So we spent about three months in training. And then they sort of sent us out of the pursuit. So it was a pretty short amount of training. You got right into it, right in the mix. And so how many years was, that's where you met your wife. You were there probably until your early 20s? No, I was only there for two years. I was 22 when I went after college. So I went there a little over two years. I think I spent two years and four months there all together. And so she's the connection to Maine because she's from South Portland. Exactly. I think you didn't go right to Maine, did you? No. So I went back and actually traveled for three months, going east through India and Nepal, Thailand. So I traveled for a few months and then I got back here. And then I ended up teaching at a Quaker school, a boarding school for a year. And at that, during that time, I decided to go to medical school to apply to medical school. So I did, during that time, apply to medical school, I ended up going to Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in Cleveland. And actually, during my first year there, I actually, at Cali, went to China to teach English. And so, and that was just when China was opening up. So it was a very interesting time. They were opening back up. So this is in 1984, 83-84, when they were just opening them back up. And so she was over there in Hafei teaching. So I went over there with the excuse to learn acupuncture. Yeah. So I went over there. And I did, I just followed around with acupunctures and just to find out what acupuncture is all about. I mean, you really need to spend, you know, a, it's a career. I mean, to really know how to do acupuncture. I mean, it's quite a, it's just a totally different way of looking at things. But it was interesting because it seemed to, I saw that it didn't work. So anyway, I was over there. You kind of dabbled in acupuncture. Yeah, it gave me enough to know kind of what, I wasn't going to be doing that. But what's interesting about that is, is you had learned a lot about Western medicine. This gave you an idea of kind of a holistic idea, Eastern medicine as well, which we'll get to as we go to your future as a doctor. But so you get, you get back from there. You were there with her for a while. Yeah, I was only there for six weeks. And then, so then I came back. And then we ended up getting married my third year of medical school. And we had our first child the next year in Cleveland. I graduated from there. I was actually given an award during my graduation for the student that at best exemplifies the characteristics of a family doctor. That was almost like a, most likely a succeed award. Well, or just somebody who looks like he was, it's going to be a good family doctor. Right, it's going to be a good family doctor. Which he became a family doctor. So I came to Maine. And I chose to come to Central Maine Medical Center in Winston for my residency program. It's a three-year residency program. We bought a house, a 200-year-old house in Green Main. Green Main. Where we lived. It's about 10 miles north of Winston. And during the three years we were there, we renovated it. So that was another pretty big project. But so I spent the three years in, in Winston. And then afterwards, because I was a national health scholar in the National Health Service Corps Scholar in medical school when they supported me, I had a payback. So I didn't even pay back the time. So I went and did that time in the Indian Health Service in Alaska. And I'm in the reserve in Alaska. In Melekawa. So we went there for three years. And that was quite an experience being there. So now, just for the viewers, this is all, you're still probably, you're in your 30s already? No, I'm still in my 20s. What? There would have been 1990. So we went there in 1990. So I actually would have been in my early 30s. Early 30s. So you get to Alaska, because this is an interesting kind of side note story that's kind of pop culture. Because this is like the early 90s, I think, right? 90 to 93, I'm sure. 90 to 93. And you talked about how this was around the time of the show Northern Exposure was pretty popular. Did you tell the audience a little bit about what happened with that? Well, I think I was there. I've been there a couple of years. And I think it was Good Morning America. It came to Alaska. They actually called in the Native Health Service in Anchorage. They said, we're looking for the real Northern Exposure product. And so they came to a net island. And they filmed me for about three days there. And the show was supposed to go on. I came sometime in September, I think, if I don't even know what year. In 1993. But Ross Perot announced his candidacy as an independent for presidency. So I got bumped. You got bumped by Ross Perot. And if you remember, he was doing a lot of these like prime time shows where you take over by the whole slot of TV. Which I already, because you were going to be the real Northern Exposure guy. And the irony about the Ross Perot was that he was that third candidate guy. So this gets us to kind of like, you get back to Maine. You worked, I think, as a doctor in Ellsworth, Blue Hill, a lot of different places around Maine. So we were there for three years. Two of my children were born in Winston during my residency program. And then my fourth one, and last one was born up in Alaska. In Alaska. So we had four children came back here. We actually lived in Blue Hill for six months. We had bought land before we, after we renovated that house, we sold it and we bought land in Beals. And so we came back in the fall of 93. And so we lived in Blue Hill for six months. And then we moved up onto the island and just to build this house. And I started working in emergency rooms. And so I was working in Blue Hill, Ellsworth, and then later in Machias as an emergency room doctor. Because to do that, I could go and I could work, sometimes you go and work 12-hour shifts or 24-hour shifts, sometimes 48-hour shifts. I'd go to Blue Hill. And I would be in the hospital the whole time. So I was doing the emergency room. I was doing admissions. I was rounding on patients. So I was doing, there's a very small hospital. So I was able to do that. And unfortunately get some sleep in between. That's what I was going to say. Probably sleep in one of the rooms there. That's right. And so what was that stressful time? Was working in emergency rooms? Probably not as stressful as being in an inner city emergency room. But car accidents? There's probably a lot of stuff that still happens. The fear was always that something was going to come in that I couldn't handle. But it's actually probably worse in Alaska. Because I was the only physician on the island a lot of times. And a lot of times when it was, there was a lot of vertical rain there because we get 12 feet of rain a year. And a lot of times the wind would be blowing at 80, 90, even 100 miles an hour. So you have horizontal rain. And sometimes you couldn't get people off the island. So I had to hold people there. And I did things there that I wished I never, I said, hope I never do again. Because it was just, And this is Alaska. This is Alaska. So do you have, was there people that were on boats and things that coming in? I mean, hypothermia too? Yeah, but the big thing was just what was happening there because like most Native Americans, they were a very oppressed population. Right, right. So they had a lot of issues relating to alcohol and trauma of emotional, physical, domestic, child abuse. I mean, but it was just a result of the trauma that they had all gone through. And as a doctor, this is what's going to, we'll talk about when we talk about your position on drugs and things like that. You've seen a lot of it on the front lines. You're not the weekend warrior. The guy talking about Narcan and whether or not we should give this to people, but they're talking about it from a million miles away. You've seen that in the emergency rooms. Yes. And in Alaska. So I didn't realize that. You were more stationed in Alaska towards where there was that population of Alaskans. Right, yes. And the biggest thing there is that there was no hospital. Right. I was it. And somebody had an emergency. I had to get them on a float plane. Yeah. Or if the float planes weren't running on a ferry or a boat, a private boat to get them out of it. Right. So here, at least I could call in somebody which I actually never had to do. Right. But the thing about me working in emergency rooms, it was always that fear that someone would come in and I wouldn't know how to handle it. Yeah. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. It never happened. It never happened. And so you worked in a lot of the hospitals. You're in Beals, Maine. We want to make sure to talk about the Beals basketball team. I think a lot of people know that. Right. Yeah. It's known for that. Yeah. But it's a very, very small community. Yeah. Yeah. And you enjoy, you live there ever since. Yeah. And you enjoy that kind of a little bit away from all of the hustle and bustle. I love it there. Yeah. I told people, in my career and where I've been, I can live anywhere in the world. And I think I chose the best place to live. Yeah. Do you like fish or do any of these things? I have a recreational option license. Yeah. One of my sons is on a stern middle of a boat. But the unfortunate thing. Wow, this. Because I'm allergic to shelf, all seafood. Yeah. Yeah. You can't eat seafood and all this. It's a family thing. It doesn't hear anything. Yeah. So after building our house, so we built our own house. Okay. We did 95% of the work. And so I worked on the weekends and these emergency rooms and then go home and build. And with help from Kelly and other people at times. And so after about three years of working in emergency rooms, I went back to family medicine. And so I spent most of my career at Harrington Family Health Center, which was about 18 miles away. Okay. And it is a fairly qualified rural health center. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And so I was there for the most part of 20 years. But during the while I was there, I also went off and worked some other places. Kelly and I went back with all of our kids to Kenya for six months. Okay. I went and worked in New Zealand for five months. I also went out and worked with a Navajo in Gallup, New Mexico for a few months. I worked in Corinth, Maine for, I don't know how long, maybe a year. And I worked in Ellsworth at a family practice there for two and a half years. Then I finished my career in Jonesport, just across the bridge. The guy who had been there forever retired and they needed somebody. So I came back home and I spent the last two and a half years. And then I retired from the medical system last fall. Okay. So it was pretty recently. Yes. So that kind of gets us up to kind of close to modern times here. Yes. Like I had the question for you. It's like, what, what kind of was that moment, the Eureka moment, where you decided you want to get involved in the governor's race here in Maine? Well, politics is something I've always kind of thought about. And I need to tell you the story about that. When I was in high school, one of the best things my dad ever gave me was he told me, Sam, I don't care what you do for the rest of your life. You can pick apples if that's what you want to do, Ron. Just be able to support yourself and your family. I said, okay. I went out and became a doctor. But he had no expectations of me. That's the whole point. Ron didn't expect me to be anything or do anything. But there was a time when I came home, I was at home from college in the summer, and I was on my way out the door, and my friends were waiting in the car. And as I was going out, he looked at me and said, Sam, you ever thought about going into politics? I said, no, not really. But I went out and said, all right, I just kind of forgot about it. Right. And then my dad died a few years later. And I never got to ask him why he asked me that. Right. So it's something that kind of stuck with me. And you still don't know. I still don't know. You know, I was very active in high school, not because I wanted to be, because I was just, I mean, I remember I went to, I was president of the student council as president of my class, president of the National Art Society, president of the Klee Club. I went to the meeting for the National Health, National Art Society. National Art Society. And I wouldn't even have the meeting, and they voted me as president. Exactly. You know, I mean, I was captain of the football team. Captain of the football team. Well, I mean, I think over and above the idea that, you know, you have to get good grades and kind of have some type of leadership capability to be a doctor. Right. It's also, you know, I think personally there probably should be more people that are doctors that get in politics. I know there's a few, because it adds that empathy that I think that some politicians maybe don't have, maybe too many lawyers in politics that, you know, that they look at, lawyers look at people like salespeople look at people, whereas doctors look at people which are much more of a holistic view of them. So this kind of gets us to, was it last winter that you really went about the journey? Well, I had been thinking about it for a while. And actually one of the things that really pushed me is when Donald Trump was elected, he was not a politician. And I watched and I was amazed the influence that one person had not only in this country but the world. And I said, wow, I feel like I have led a blessed life. I feel like I'm filled because I've been so blessed. I feel like I want to give something back. I could go home and read books now, you know, and, you know, just, I don't have any grandkids at this point but I just felt like I'm ready to do something different. And I remember even when I was in the Peace Corps said, you know what, there's a lot of things I'd like to do with my life but probably being a doctor, I should do that now because I'm not going to want to go to medical school when I'm 50. Exactly. So here it is, it comes and I said, okay, maybe, and I just decided I have become so disheartened by how things are in this country with politics. You know, as I say, we have a government of political parties by politicians for special interests. And the people are just on the side and they're just, they're just throwing their hands up. I mean, you know, where's the government of the people, by the people, for the people. We need to start at the bottom and make those decisions there so that every four years it doesn't change. And flip-flop back and forth, Hal. What she does, because I believe if we make those decisions from the bottom up, they'll stay. Yeah, and the idea that, I mean, I'm under the impression that originally, you know, politicians weren't, that wasn't your job. That was something you kind of weaved in and out of from your actual jobs, right? It wasn't that kind of the basis of it back in the day. Still isn't main. I mean, it's not a full-time job. They're there for a few months, but everybody has their own job. Right, right. And so Washington has a lot of professional politicians. Even the big, big weeks, you know. Right, that seems to be those people. Once they get there, it's really hard to want to leave. Well, and I'm going to go back to something you said in the beginning, is that I'm running for governor. I'm not running, I'm standing. Standing, right. And so the difference there is that in the beginning of our country, before there were political parties, a community would go to, well, back then it was a white man. Right, exactly. To the community, and they would say, they would pick somebody who they thought would represent them well. They didn't have a political party. They said, this man has an honesty and integrity. And so would you stand for office? Right. They would say, would you stand for office? Some of them said yes, some of them said no. But there was an political party then. So, I mean, it kind of in that same way. It was like, it wasn't like now where people actually have to kind of like grin and bear it with some of the people because they happen to be, right? So it's like, there's a lot of people who probably aren't too big a fans of Donald Trump, but they will still vote for him because he's better than the other guy and vice versa and so on and so forth. So that's where it's a lot more. And this is going a little further down the road, but I mean, would you like to see whether there's a multi-parties, maybe five or six? Well, at least a third party. At least another party that, and probably more than anything, is that the first thing I would say to the legislature during my inaugural speech would be, you are here to represent the people of Maine. You are here to represent your constituents, not your party. Right. Because they have to, I mean everybody's tied to the party because if they don't follow, the party's going to come down on them and they may not support them. I am an unenrolled independent, so I'm not part of a party. Okay. There was like five different issues that you feel like, you just let's get these out of the way because you're going to get asked this all the time. And do you want to say those issues or do you want to say it? I can go through them. So this is what I found on the road. And I can tell you that I was on the road for three months. It was probably the hardest work I've ever done. People that know I did this, they say, how did you do that? Because I don't think any governor has gone out and gotten 92% of those signatures themselves. Probably not. Yeah. And so because there's two other independent, Jim Lonely and Angus King, they had money. Yes. So they paid people. As a matter of fact, I just signed a petition out there who's doing something. They're paid people. They come in. Was it Elliott Cutler also one of these? Yes. He had a lot of money. Yes. So they paid people to go get the signatures. Right. But I was out there and so I feel like I really got a pulse of the people. These are the five issues. And what I would say is it doesn't make any difference what my position is on these five issues. I will lose 30% of the vote no matter what. No matter what it is. Okay. There are, abortion, COVID and vaccines and mandates. Right. Okay. Guns. Yeah. This is kind of a general thing about environment, but also in particular the corridor and how I voted on the corridor. And then a lot of people want to know did I vote for Trump or Biden? Right. Okay. So I want to just somebody tell people, I want to get those out of the way. Right. Because we're not going to find common ground on this. Well, for regional people I think we could, but there's the 30% that no matter how I answer that, you're not going to really, I'm not going to find common ground. So these are the five issues that you want to be upfront with people and tell them because, you know, take it or leave it, right? Yeah. This is where, and they are very divisive issues that the media, the media is part of the problem because they want to know this all the time and they keep bringing it up and they run around. You know what that does. And the more you get these out of the way, I got you questions. Yeah. So then maybe we can find some things and we'll start finding common ground. They can find common ground about. So I mean, with abortion and the COVID kind of mandates, it seems to me like you have kind of a libertarian viewpoint, right? Is it kind of hands off your body a little bit? Yeah. I think for both of those. I mean, for me, it's, I believe the government should have no jurisdiction over my body. Right. Period. I mean, I don't have anything else to say about it. The government should be doing that. Now a lot of people want to spit that. We say, well, with abortion, it's this or, you know, abortion's okay, but this isn't, you know, vaccines or, you know, whatever. But for me, it's the same thing. Keep your hands off my body. Right. Keep your laws off my body. Right. Yeah. Well, and that's, and I don't want to digress, but that would be a very quick question. But are you then for the legalization of all drugs? Because that's often similar. Like, hey, let me do whatever I want to do to my own body. Maybe not because sometimes with drugs, you can harm other people, too. Well, you can. And the other thing is, is that when you're not taking services, when the MS is called to your home because you're in a stupor. Right. Okay. You're using, you're using. Yeah. And so, no, you're not for doing anything destructively. No, but if you're doing, I mean, you know, who thought 50 years ago that Mary wanted to be legal? Probably not a lot of people. Similar thing, I think, and I wouldn't speak for you. It's like you're kind of saying, look, I'm not for everybody being able to jump off of bridges whenever they want because then you're going to have to go clean up the mess and all the rest of it. Right. There could be things that it creates a public. Right. Public help. When you're breaking the law, that's a different issue. Right. Right. And so, but those two issues, you're pretty consistent on them. And that makes sense. With guns, though, you might have a different feeling than what people might think just as they're a gut reaction. What's your feeling on guns? Well, here's my gut reaction. I used to hunt. I used to trap animals. And so I don't have a problem with people hunting. Yeah. And so how I look at it is I don't have a problem with somebody going out and killing a deer. I have a problem with the potential being able to go out and shoot a herd of deer. Right. So where there's a weapon of mass destruction, I don't know why we need those in our society. Right. I think that, you know, people have them. Yeah. I don't support them because I don't see a need for them. No, I understand. Like assault weapons. Assault weapons. I mean, I just don't understand. I mean, a lot of people, for a lot of people, it's really about, for them, it's about, and I think they're kind of like on the far right, that they think that they have to arm themselves against the government. Right. Right. They take that whole thing in the Constitution very literally. Exactly. And they think that and then, you know, versus you probably feel like hunting's okay. Also, you know, if you have to have a gun in your house because you're worried about intruders and if you live in a rural community, that's often talked about because it takes a lot longer for the police to get to you, right? Absolutely. And so that's, you know, but you don't need a machine gun to protect of a burglar. Most likely. No, I don't know. Handgun, whatever. I guess that's where I would draw that line. I don't see the need for that. Right. And the energy corridor, before you tell us the position and the environment thing, it's, I think you'd be surprised to find out, some people don't even know what that topic is. Energy corridors, it's the electrical grid they're trying to do here. Yeah. Well, it's, the C&P wanted to go through public land with their grid, with electric grid coming from, I think it's Quebec hydro. Right. To bring hydro power down through Maine to Miami, Massachusetts. And Maine was going to benefit, I don't know the details of that. Right. But the thing about the referendum, it was about, dude, you support them not, I think of the question, it was a yes question, if you were against them doing that. Right. Yeah. Doing it on public land. Going through public land to do that. And so for me, I look at our environment and our natural resources as one of our biggest assets. Right. People are the biggest, but that's probably the next. I mean, the ocean or mountains or streams. And I think that's why we live here. Right. Right. Because we love the outdoors. So we need to protect the outdoors while allowing for sustainable use. Yes. But if there's a public land, I don't think we need to be building anything through it. I mean, it's public land, which means that if you put a corridor through it, it's going to kind of ruin it. Kind of ruin it. Yeah. So I voted, yes, but here's another issue. But the whole problem with that referendum is there are actually three parts to it. And you couldn't separate them out. So that one thing as a governor, when you do a referendum, I want one issue. Don't make it complicated. Because I don't really even know what I was voting for. I was voting for the not to go through that through the public land. But there were two other issues there. And I didn't know about. I mean, and so anyway, that's another issue. Right. That's another thing about the referendums. And then Trump Biden. And all people on the road said, who'd you vote for? Who'd you vote for? And I said, I didn't vote for either one of them. Right. So I didn't. I voted, I think, for the libertarian in this past. I'm not even sure. Yeah. Well, it was a tough election. And I know that it's not for. But I think that that goes to kind of the idea that we were talking about a lot, was that tell me about your viewpoint on the folks that are going to be out there that think, oh, you're just going to be stealing the votes from one of the other people. And I don't believe that that's a great way to look at things over and over again, because it's always going to be that way. But you're going to have a lot of those naysayers. You've already run into a lot of them out there. And what's your thoughts on that? Well, so they did a recent poll where they're pretty close. And that was without a third party person. And I can guarantee you that if you give the choice of the Republican between Mills and LePage, even though they don't want LePage, they're going to vote for him. And the same with every Democrat. You know, you give the choice that they're going to vote for Democratic where they want the Democrat. They definitely don't want the Republican. So that's a lot of those people. And so for me, you know, and it was really the Democrats who talked about splitting the vote. And because Elliott Cutler did that, they think so. But a couple of things I have to say about that. Number one, Elliott Cutler was a Democrat. Yes. He was a Democrat. He had been a Democrat. He worked with Democrats. He's a lot, but he ran as an independent. That's why he got a lot of Democratic votes, because he was a Democrat. And he almost won the first time. He came with one-and-a-half percentage points. And the Democrat came in quite a bit lower, like 20, I don't know. I think that was right. And it was 20 percent, sir. From what I remember, it was almost kind of like the Mexican standoff, as they call it, where who would back down, like a game of chicken, because some people were telling her that he should drop out and let him win. And some people were telling him that he should drop out. Neither of them would do it. So maybe they both have something to blame for what happened, at least from the folks that don't like LaPage. But from the side that likes LaPage, they were happy about it. I think there was Sean Moody was involved a little bit. And he was more Republican, but I think he dropped out. But I think talking about the third party, it doesn't always sway that way. It's not always Ralph Nader. It's not always the lady that was most recently involved in Jill Stein, I think, when we talked about Ross Perot. He definitely took a lot more people from George Bush Sr. and that's where Bill Clinton was able to win. So it cuts both ways, but your candidacy isn't about trying to sway it one way or another. You're not a hidden operative for the Republicans or the Democrats. I've never been a Democratic Republican. I've always voted independently. And I believe that I have some Republican views. I'm probably more libertarian than anything if I had to choose, but I'm not really libertarian. But I'm more that way than anything. I think that our government sometimes is too big. I think that when they start mandating things that I don't like, I don't think that that should be the case. But I can be conservative and I can be liberal. And so I am a true independent and I've always been that way. And the biggest voting bloc in Maine are independence. And I know a lot, as I said before, I know a lot of Democrats who don't really want to vote for Janet Mills and I know a lot of Republicans who don't want to vote for Paula Page. And so many people said, thank you, thank you for giving us another choice. So I'm not splitting the vote. If anything, I could say the same about them. If I don't win, they took my vote. They took the vote, right, from the local side. So, and it's really, you know, it's the American way. You know, it was so refreshing being out on the road when my standard question is, would you be willing to sign for me to be on the ballot for governor? And some people look at me and say, they say, sure. And they say, yes, everybody who wants to run should be on the ballot. And there were others who, they would stand there and talk to me and they would ask me question after question. And it got to question 10 and I answered the wrong way. They were gone. They were gone. And so, and there were some who said absolutely not. And so, you know, a lot of the far left are those, I call them the mills' warriors. And they said, no, you're going to split the vote. And then on the right, they were just, no, I got my, I got my guy. And so that's fine, you know. Yeah. I mean, I think it happens. And I think that in a perfect world, you know, if there was four even candidates, so there was, you know, and I think that happens more in Europe. You might have a far right and a far left and a medium and a medium. And then you're starting to have a lot more things going on. And it's not that idea that, oh, it's, it's like a, you know, like a one egg that's getting split in two and all of that kind of stuff. I think just to, you, I definitely want to talk to you about, you know, what your feelings are about the opioid problem. That's one of the things that I've talked to some people on my show about. I mean, that's definitely hitting me like a hammer. You're from having spent some time or basically grown up in the Appalachias. They were hitting in almost the exact same way as Maine. You're a doctor. I mean, it's almost as though fingers crossed you don't actually not win the governor for you. But I could see you maybe being the attorney, the surgeon general or something of Maine because you must have some ideas. Something's got to get fixed here. I mean, somebody suggested to me whether they should have drug courts. You said they do have drug courts. They don't work that well. I don't want to say too many things on a question, but what's your thoughts on the whole opioid? What are we going to do to fix this? Well, it's a huge problem and it affects so many people, not only the addict, but if they have a spouse, if they have children, if they have a family and parents are just been distraught when they know that their child is doing this because at any time they know they can die because of the statistics out there. So it affects the whole community and it is a major problem. And so even though you have these so many dying and seem to be dying more and more and we spent millions and millions and millions of dollars trying to make a difference, not happen, it's not working. We need to think about doing something different. From my perspective, the number one health issue in this country is mental health. And mental health affects, certainly does affect physical health. It's mental health and spiritual health. I wouldn't even say that. And what I do know is that we all have issues and the more issues we have, the more we're going to turn to some type of addiction to get away from them. We all have trauma. We all have gone through trauma abuse and neglect. Some people it's minimal, but for some people it's huge. When you've been sexually abused, physically abused, neglected. And so part of the whole problem with addiction is people are trying to get away from that. That's the whole idea of addiction is to get away from this dis-ease within us. And for addicts, it's the only time where they feel okay. It just all goes away. I understand, but the problem is then it becomes an addiction. So they can't do without it. They've got to have it every day. And the paradigm for the system is to treat the street addiction with other addictive pharmaceutical products. That's the... That's a suboxone. And that's something you talked about. You're not a fan of, right? Well, I am a fan for short-term. Very short-term. To get people off the streets, get them stable so that they're not withdrawing all the time. But for me it's a bridge that should be a very short bridge because people need to start doing their work. They need to start doing recovery work. And people are being mandated into 12-step programs. That's not going to work. Because you can't mandate this. You can't tell people they have to do it. But one of the things I would love to see us do I want to turn at least one of our prisons into a rehabilitation center so that people go and they actually start rehabbing. And so, for example, this is one thing, if you are revived with Narcan, if you're found in a stupor, an opioid stupor, and you are revived, you have a choice to go to prison or to go to inpatient drug rehabilitation for six months or whatever that is. And during that time, you actually do rehabilitation. Most addicts feel like a piece of crap. They treat themselves like that. They have so much shame and guilt from what they've been doing. And again, they just keep doing it because when they're using, that all goes away for a short time. But then they wake up and they have to deal with what they did the day before when they were stealing something. Look at how much of our prison system is filled with drug-related crime. Yeah, I think that's what happens is that it's, like you said, it compounds because your life starts falling out of control and becomes a pebble, becomes a giant rock rolling down the hill. It makes it harder and harder. So have you seen, is this a thing that's worked any other places that you know about? It's worked in other states. When people I've worked with, it has worked. The problem is I'm not a program, but I actually have prescribed Suboxone for years. But for me, it's always a bridge and it's always, you know, practice. I mean, there was a requirement that people went to counseling. That they be in some kind of 12-step program as part of getting their drugs. The problem is the more that on their drug they're extremely addictive. I mean, even Suboxone is very difficult to get people off them because they're so addictive. It has to be a very slow process. But people have to, and medical practitioners don't really want them to do that. Because every week they come in, people are making money, the systems are making money on them. You know? And so there's no paradigm outside the use of these drugs. And have you seen is that hard hitting of the parts of Maine that you haven't yet? So smaller towns are getting hipster. I've had my kids friends, so I remember I died from overdoses. And it affects the whole community. And so it's a huge problem but I think what we're going about so now all these people on these drugs are now dependent on the system. Right. Yeah. And it's costing millions of dollars to do that. And we have got to give the responsibility of this problem back to the person. And as your time, when you were in Alaska because you work with the Native population there, you see what some people think. And again, I'm not the guy saying it one way or another. But there's a lot of people that think if some people, they're always dependent on the system, they're never going to be able to feel any better about themselves, things like that. And you're saying more system. So what about, you know, with Bill Clinton, I thought he had a thing that was like a work fair. Or to get your welfare, you had to be working. You're doing something, jobs program. Something. I mean, what are we going to do where we have two things, right, Sam? We've got this drug problem. Let's not forget. We also have an unemployment problem where these jobs dried up. They're going to be coincidental, can they? So what's the theory? How are we going to get people back to be doing it? Even if we're doing things that's like a jobs program, right? Like the great depressions and these programs in those days, is that possible? Well, I think it's possible. I don't know. That's about the most thing. Part of this whole idea of putting people in, opening a prison for rehabilitation. I would like to see where the whole family can go there. Because the whole family needs rehabilitation. The whole family has been traumatized by the action of the addict and the behavior of the addict. And so, I don't want to really separate families, but part of that can also be that part of that rehabilitation is getting them back to work. Right. From where they are. It may be part of time that you start to do that. But what has to happen more than anything else is that people, they have to come to the realization that they are okay. Their behavior is not. Their attitude may be not. But we're all the same. We all come from the same place and nobody is any better than anybody else. But the shame and the guilt that these people carry makes them think that they're a piece of crap. And they're not. But their behavior has to change. Because I think it's kind of like what we're talking about. It's that they've carried that over and made it worse and worse with all their actions. But then they probably, 90% of it and as a doctor, you see more people than I do as a personality. But then a lot of these people they probably didn't have upbrings where they were given much well treatment. It's a very self-fulfilling process. They never started with those tools. And so, there's not too much into all of the weeds of things because we might run out of time. Like, what are the kind of the top four or five things that you think that Maine really needs that could be great that you could add to it? Or even that you don't necessarily know you could have. But what are those things and where, if you got into power or got to be the governor where would you be able to see those things in Maine in the next five or six years? Like, where are we on the precipice of? Where could we get to that next level? Well, I mean, again, I think one of the biggest issues that we're dealing with, that affects our whole system is mental health. And I think where I would like to focus more than anything is in community. In communities and the community within communities. And to go along with that, focus on children. So, you look at children. Children need a safe place to grow up. They need housing. They need stable housing. Look at our problem with housing. So, if you start looking at children, you're going to start going into a lot of different things like housing and education and how they are you know, children are still being abused. And so, how do you children need community? They really need community. A community should raise the child. Not just the parents. So, it should be a whole community raising children. And so, I would love, for example, to bring to bring elderly and children together. Children need the elderly. The elderly, they have their patients. They have their kindness. As we get older, we kind of mellow out. You know, we kind of accept ourselves more. And so, the elderly have a lot to give children. So, was this something that you saw more when you, because you've traveled a lot to other countries, I think that that's more well known in South America and other countries where we don't have these issues and that's why there's issues in Asia when there's suicides because the elderly have been disenfranchised where for since the beginning of time that everybody stayed in the same household. In the U.S. that doesn't happen as much. There's community. In other words, there was community. I mean, you'd see five-year-old kids walking down the road with a newborn or a one-year-old on the back, you know? And they'd be with three other kids and they could go in any hut they wanted, you know? And so, there was a community there. And the kids felt welcome. If a child has just one person that they know loves them, it makes all the difference in the world where they can get nurturing and comfort. Whether it's a grandmother, a neighbor, somebody that just shows them that they're okay can make a world of difference for them. And so, the mental health issue where that ties in because that does make sense to me in the sense that this is, you can start right at the top. It's almost like, you know, about a Maslow's pyramid of needs and that now if you start with mental health, you're going to be the trickle down, hopefully, is maybe we can cure this homeless issue that's going on a lot in Portland because I think what happens in Portland is you have all these people are getting shuffled here from other parts of Maine, other places. So, it's a symptom of, it's like as a doctor, it's like the wound that's a symptom of what's going on inside. But that's the mental health thing. And so, where, and do you think you could start with a legislature? Do you think you'd start with, where do you think that you get these people to get this stuff? Well, I think it comes back to grassroots and starts to, there are communities, I mean, for example, in Beals Island this is just one example. So, I worked in nursing homes. And whenever I was in a nursing home and a child came in, the whole place just lit up. You know, the elderly need those children, just as much as the children need the elderly. And another part of the example is there's a woman named Lorraine and she was in the, she was a cook at that grade school and all my kids knew her and they loved her and she was just you know, a grandmother to all of them. Then she went over to the nursing home and worked there as a cook. And now she's in her early 90s and she sits home every day by herself. And it's not healthy for her. She's isolated. She lives a quarter of a mile away from the school. Think about her going to school every day to have lunch with those kids. Yeah. I mean, it's just something simple like that. And so, maybe we have that where the elderly come in and just have lunch every day with the kids. So you build that community. And maybe you put daycare in schools. Yeah. There was you know, Tom Gruneg, he's a, the waterfront paper I don't know if you, Waterfront Institute, I think it is. He just wrote an article about education and he said, you know, it's really healthy that you know, we have all 10-year-olds together in one class and all 12-year-olds at the other one in class. Used to be we'd have one-room houses and the older kids would help the younger kids. And that's actually how you know you learn. If you can teach it, you know you've got to know it. So having that and having daycare in there so that kids can go and see, you know, and actually maybe even take care of the kids right there. And then you have the elderly in there who can, you know, some kid that needs to be sent from class they go and they sit on the lap. I don't know. But I'll have them on. But that would help get a bigger community. And then maybe you'd have some young people come in and maybe that would help them get off their phones. Maybe you'd have activities. But I mean that's just an idea. So I would like to foster that. Maybe we have some pilot programs to do that. I would like the communities to pay for that or people who have philanthropy within the communities to help make that happen. And let's see what happens. I think that it actually happens more in rural areas. But there's not as much there as it was, you know, 30 years ago. Yeah. I think it's become more separate and more isolated. And I think that that's a bigger kind of thing that's been happening all over the country is more and more people moving to cities. They're much less personal. It's difficult. And I think that that's where the there's just got to be some type of a new overhaul with the economy where the economy's not really tied to nature anymore, right? I mean it seems like the economy back in, you know, even as a kid when I was growing up in Wilton Farmington they were in the mills. There was economy that was the lumber. There was economy with dairy. I mean it's still around I suppose. But I mean there's probably machines doing most of it now instead of people milking. There's less farmers. There's just a lot of overhaul. But are you optimistic about Maine in the next few years? Do you think it's going to be, can we can we find these changes we need? I believe we can. I'm not sure that the Republicans and Democrats can choose from Maine. Because they don't have a very good track record and all they do seem to fight. Again, if it starts from the bottom up it can be more permanent. I'm not big about the government writing programs but it can support programs. And maybe it can help with money as well but we've got to come up with something different. I certainly don't have all the answers. And one of the things I really would like to do is I would like to govern with council. I would like to have a council of advisors. I say a council of elders but they're not just elders because I want young people. I want a diverse council that help advise me on everything we do. And then maybe there can be a council that the other thing I think we really need to do is we need to have oversight of our government like the Department of Education. What I'm finding is nobody really knows how these departments work. Right, right. I have a point, a commissioner, but the department is already there. It's been there forever. Those people don't change. And there's a system there it's like locked down. It's like a bunker that you've got to get in. So I'm interested in going in there and I would like to have an advisory council on every one of those and every one of those Department of Education. DHS, look at DHS. I had a a woman that I met up in Norwich Walk who worked for or somewhere up there, I'm not sure but she worked for the department of DHS for Department of Human Services Health and Human Services She worked for them for 30 years and her comment was it was an absolute shit show. It's a total mess. What's that mean? But there's no oversight of these departments. And I have set the main Chamber of Commerce today and I asked it on who here knows how our government works. There must have been 70 people. Not one hand went up. So where do people find the way to get touch with you? Stand with Sam? Stand with Sam? On Facebook? On Facebook, but this is my website and so that's where to start. This is a very grassroots campaign. I'm taking no donations. Exactly. I want money corrupt politics and so if somebody gave me $5,000 you don't think I want to think of them if an issue comes up that involves them? You think I'm not going to think about that? So you're taking no donations but you can volunteer. You can support me and the biggest way to support me right now is to get the word out. And invite me to come to your home or to have a forum and I will come. It's really going to be grassroots and the other thing I'm very aware of and I became aware pretty quickly is that people have political fatigue. They have election fatigue. They do not want to hear about it right now. It's summertime. I think our priority will be in September, not June so that then you have two months of campaigning and that's what I'm waiting to do. I'm going to be doing things like this and talking to people, maybe going to meetings, but I'm not going to be campaigning until the fall because I don't think people want to hear about it. I don't want to hear about it. Right. But you want to get out there and maybe you're on more of a listening tour. That's right. A lot of people don't even know that I'm on the ballot and they don't know who I am and that's what my website will help you see. It's a pretty, it's not a professional website but I think it has what you need. Right. You're not trying to be the flashy guy. You're going to local papers. You're talking at local roads. I have a number of articles written about me. They're on my website in the press section. I've had some very good articles written and people are intrigued. It sounds like it's going to be a great summer for you. I've learned a lot. It's been grueling because I've learned a lot. I've met some really great people and it's exciting but it's been a lot of work. And as I said I'm ready to put my heart into this. Into the state of Maine and the people here. I've met thousands and thousands of people in my profession. I know things about people that no one else does. There's an intimacy I have with them and I feel like I have a pretty good pulse of people in Maine. And so I think that's what I'm going on. You just got to get the word out there. Stan with Sam invite him to any of your events coming up and his website again is stanwithsam22.com 2022. 2022.com I think it's going to be a lot of fun for you this fall. I want to say thank you very much. I appreciate it. It was a great conversation. Thanks everybody. Remember the invitation is open to Paul LaPage and Janet Mills. We don't want to seem like we're only on one side of the fence here. But I want to say thank you to everybody. Have a good night. Take care. Bye bye.