 Lots of you heard about the drone incidents in the airports in the UK This talk is the great British drone panic by Jenny list She's talking about and asking for a better standards of official investigation and media reporting into the British drone incident stories Give her a warm applause for Jenny list My background is that I'm a journalist I write for Hackaday.com who many of you may know I'm also a member of two makerspaces and hackspaces in the UK I'm a member of Oxford hackspace and Milton Keynes makerspace and My background is that I'm an electronic engineer who worked in publishing for most of her career and so after I left the Oxford dictionaries where I used to work I started writing for Hackaday and I found myself dealing with multi-rotor stories drone stories as they are in the popular press And I found I was getting to know people who flew multi-rotors drones and I found that they were Rather unhappy about the way that their hobby was being portrayed Particularly that there were a lot of sort of stories of drones in Conflict with aircraft or whatever and there were Very they considered it to be a very unfair reporting of how that was happening and they were very concerned But they didn't know what to do and so I sort gained an interest in the subject and realized that there was quite a story here and So I started writing about it for Hackaday Now before I start there's one thing that I absolutely have to say Flying drones at people is bad if you're here Wanting to fly drones near an airport if you want to fly over a crowd without the appropriate Licensing and all the safety stuff if you want to fly it near aircrafts. I have one thing to say for you get out The only way that the multi-rotor community will be taken seriously is If they make sure that what they do they do in a safe manner as possible I'm saying this now because the subject of the talk there may be people who say oh, yes It's another hacker talking about drones and they will just say how bad pilots are and say that they can fly anywhere No, that is not the case if you fly a drone near aircraft you deserve to go to jail however, I guess I got into this about 2015 2016 and One of the first major articles I did for Hackaday about it was I went through 2015's British drone incident reports and What was very striking about them is that they were all they all involved Reports of drones and multi-rotors that just didn't add up, you know, they were sort of Descriptions of a drone that didn't match any known drone. They were at enormous altitudes which Just couldn't fly to they were at great speeds or whatever and so I went through all the Drone incident reports for a year and just did a little bit of analysis not as huge in-depth analysis But just said this is what's being Reported how does it stack up? And the result was this article. I've just picked one incident as a sort of typical example This is a completely normal performance of an average drone It's was epochs report number 2015 1 5 5 and it's overstands that airport, which is one of London's smaller airports Boeing 737 so quite a big airliner was Climbing after taking off so it was at 4,000 feet and it was doing 250 knots which is Nearly 300 miles an hour. My apologies continental friends. I don't quite know what that is in kilometers per hour But it's a lot The drone was sighted at 12 o'clock, so there's you're flying along at 300 miles an hour And there's a drone flying towards you really quickly. Wow, and then Before it hits you it doesn't about turn and flies away at one o'clock. So it's coming in that direction It's flying out at that direction now Completely normal performance of an average drone. I don't think fighter aircraft can do that If you have a drone that can do that, I want that drone because it's awesome I'm guessing that if you have a drone that can do that I'm guessing uncle Sam wants that drone and will come to you with lots of billions the fact is that This is being reported as a drone completely matter-of-fact by the official body that looks at Air proximity incidents and there was no question as to whether it was or wasn't a drone in the official record It's a drone despite the fact that no drone could possibly do that and In that I of course saw my story because When the official record is just so blatantly wrong watch a list wouldn't want to question it So I went through what a couple of years of the odd drone story Sort of somebody cited a drone near Gekwick, and they closed it for like an hour or something Somebody sort of saw a drone near aircraft those kind of stories And then came December 2018. I think it was was the 18th or something like that It was an evening in December, so it's getting dark. I think it was quite a cold evening. There was a frost I don't think it was raining from memory Anyway in the freezing cold of a British winter evening under the glare of the arc lights on the tarmac So one of the guys who drives a trolley around or whatever airport workers saw something flutter in the corner of their View I don't know the actual incidents that was reported because the authorities haven't released it But let's say it was something like that They reported it because you have to report it and somebody said the D word drone and They closed the airport. That's actually the right thing to do It's absolutely the right thing if somebody sees I think they've seen a drone over an airport It's the right thing to do because they have to investigate it make sure it's safe Because if you are flying in an aircraft you need to be kept safe So closing the airport actually was the right thing to do so they close the airport it's full of people going off on their Christmas holidays and you've got I don't know tens of thousands of people just sitting there bored looking around and Of course, they're told there are drones in the air so they start seeing drones They see drones everywhere. So sightings keep coming in and this is just normal Behaviour I mean for instance as an analogous thing last week I was at the Danish hacker camp borne hack as an aside if any of you wants to go to borne hack do it It's an amazingly chilled camp had an amazing time But there were one or two people on one of the fields complained they had tick bites and the minute, you know There are ticks like you're looking for ticks and every little mole or Spot or piece of dirt or anything on you like oh, no, it's a tick and you're seeing ticks everywhere Of course, there aren't any ticks and it's exactly the same It's human nature if you're told that there is a threat you're going to start seeing it everywhere so what happened is these sightings kept on coming in and So they kept the airport closed overnight And then it we're into the next day and it gets a bit silly at this point because one of the British tabloid newspapers. I think it was Daily Mail had a Video on their website and it was the the Gatwick drone and it was just a gray sky I think you saw some lamp posts across the corner of it at one point with a drone flying and there was somebody in the background I think there's the bastard and this was widely show it shared around social media everywhere and There's only one small problem with this There was nothing in the video that identified it as being at Gatwick now I'm not saying that's a journalist and a drone flyer stood in the Daily Mail car park, but This was widely reported as the Gatwick drone, but when you have a video of something it helps if It has something that can tie it to a place because without that it's our old friend fake news and It got into sort of almost hysterical levels that you know Superman. Where are you can nobody save us? but Don't worry the police arrested somebody they arrested a couple actually And they've done their job. So we're safe. We can sleep safe except This happened What what they'd actually done In the manner of high-quality police work everywhere They'd searched Facebook for the closest drone enthusiast and they'd rounded up the usual suspects because that always works It worked in the 1970s for IRA bombs It worked when they were chasing terrorists after September the 11th And evidently it worked here too, but it completely ruined a couple's life it Was breathlessly reported as they were the culprits and of course they weren't and it used vast police Resources and meanwhile if there had been a drone at Gatwick whoever was Still on the go and of course the sightings kept coming in and so They kept the airport closed for another day. I think it was three days in total. They kept it closed and They even said they turn wreckage and like okay. This is really interesting. Can we see this wreckage? Because you know drone wreckage that's actual physical tangible evidence, but no they were investigating it So we couldn't see it yet and then This happens Police say there is a possibility that were was never a drone and it all faded with you very very quickly And we were never allowed to speak of it again, but the airport had be closed for three days so They close the airport for three days and then sort of very quietly and sort of shame-facedly admitted that they're basically probably wasn't a drone They're at all in the first place, but the trouble is received opinion The public and the politicians and the media have been conditioned. There was a drone at Gatwick So received opinion is now that there was a drone at Gatwick. It's endangered flights cause huge disruption and drone flyers are bad, okay, and It's not true obviously But that's the danger that's the power that the media holds that if they say enough and if the authorities say it too Then it's the truth. No matter if it basically wasn't the truth There's no evidence, but there was that wreckage And we've never been shown the wreckage now at this point. I'm going to take you on a little trip down memory lane Manchester October 2013 The media reported that some bloke in with inshore was printing 3d printed guns in his basement and There was a great press release a press conference where they excitedly showed these photographs and The box sets a make about replicator two or three three make about replicator three The things on the right are a trigger for a 3d printed gun and a barrel for a 3d printed gun and Then the rep rap community said hang on I don't quite know what the so-called trigger is But I think it's part of the extruder for it for a rep rap of the time And I think the barrel is the sticky outy thing that you put your real affilliment on Yeah, the police basically raided some bloke who was making rep raps which probably a great chunk of you have done at some point and Decided that these innocuous parts were 3d printed guns because that's the quality of British policing if they see something I mean, I'm not saying that some policemen found a broken desk fan in the grass somewhere and said it was a drone But we never saw the drone so brawl your own conclusions So yeah, it all faded away the police were mildly embarrassed, but the Public as far as the public was concerned the gateway could be enclosed because drones Middle of January about a month later there's drones again that he throw and It's nice and close to London basically the mass media journalists They never like going far so they will hot-footed it out. You can go to Heathrow on the tube So they will half it out hot-footed out Heathrow and there were lights in the sky there It is finally absolute proof so lots of drone reports kept coming in Heathrow was closed for an evening and Then bit later in the evening. It was opened up again. The threat had been seen off now Lights and a drone and a drone that's up for quite a long time now the Community started to smell a rat and A guy in the drone community guy called I Andrew Himes. He's also a hackaday reader. He contacted me and He'd done a look on ADS B now ADS B is I can't go into the full technical details It's not my area of expertise, but it's the beacon system that commercial aircraft carry They effectively rather than relying on sort of active radar passive radar rather they Is active radar traditional old-fashioned radar they instead each plane has a beacon that says hello I'm me and this is where I am and there are people have networks of RTL SDR type things That's log it all to the web so you can go back in time You say on this particular evening what aircraft aware and he found the drone It's in the map on the right and It's quite a well-known aircraft and it's notorious some people don't find it welcome It's one of the metropolitan police helicopters So what happened was I think I mean the police won't say anything about this because course. It's a bit embarrassing to them Somebody said the D word they scrambled the helicopter the helicopter turned up Somebody saw lights in the sky so the helicopter went over to investigate and Effectively, I'm not saying that the helicopter went round chasing itself in the dark over Heathrow for an evening But look at the ADSB records and where it went on the map and judge for yourselves So yes again received opinion is now that there was a drone flying over Heathrow and it caused everything to be closed Drones are bad and It's one of the most dangerous phrases in British public Disports course this something must be done what that really means is the upper-class Twits who happen to be in power at the moment have to put down their brandy or whatever it is and Think oh, we have to you have to have to pass some laws or something Oh, we are hard on those Johnny's was you know punishment flog them burn them and all that kind of stuff and So we get some laws Often this means bad laws Because let me take you deep into parts of the British psyche the all the gammons who quake in their Barrett homes at the thought of whatever the tabloid newspaper the Daily Mail or the Daily Express tells them is the Menace of the moment they demand that something must be done and Their general reaction to everything and it's been all through decades is the British way people are having fun This must be stopped at all costs and I've included a picture of a no-ball game sign They've actually have no legal Meaning but you will find no ball game signs in housing estates all across the United Kingdom because Heaven's children might have fun and this must be stopped at all costs I mean in my lifetime I was probably the first generation of grew up in the 70s first generation who? Got skateboards, and they were to be banned and people must people are having fun. This must be stopped And then computer games. I was the first generation to get I got a Sinclair's x81 when I was 11 and They're rotting children's brains children are having fun This must be stopped at all costs and then of course when I was a student It was all acid house rave music and people poppy knee and as you imagine they went off the scale on that one So yeah, that's the level of reaction in British politics instead of saying, okay Let's look at the evidence here and right find out what really happens It's people must be stopped from having fun because they're flying drones and so yeah, we got some laws As it happens We're kind of lucky on the laws because one of the few players in all this who actually has a clue and knows What they're talking about is the UK civil aviation authority the CAA? Generally when they're dealing with anything to do with stuff in the air, they know what they're talking about They don't go over the deep end their Concern is a smooth and safe running of Britain's airspace. So in terms of what we actually got in the laws about drone flying Anything above 250 grams. I believe from November you'll have to pass some kind of test and You'll have to I think pay for license It's not a huge amount of money and I'm guessing the test is sort of stuff Do you know that you don't have to fly with within the distance of people or an air base or whatever? I haven't been through the test myself personally. I've decided I'm not going to get the test My drone flying is small toy drones Which I basically just got to learn how to fly so I'd know something about it I'm not a drone flyer But the law that part of the law itself is actually quite well thought out I find it quite an Enticing prospect the 250 gram drone thing. It's funny when they were talked about this first there was some Government minister was saying this will be a marvelous boost to the British drone industry And my first thing is what British drone industry, but my second thing is well It will be a marvelous boost to the Shenzhen drone industry Because quite a few countries around the world are bringing in this 250 gram limit, which means the guys in Shenzhen will be Busy making amazing Multi-rotors in a 250 gram form factor So in if you know things like the DJI spark and things like that It's about 350 grams I think imagine in a couple years time you'll be able to buy an equivalent of the DJI spark that does way more stuff because it's Two years time in the future and only weighs 250 grams and you don't need a license for it I'm waiting for those drones to appear because I want one So that's the Drone regulation side of it. The other side of it is a bit more worrying. It's your typical British government over reaction It's the people are having fun. This must be stopped all costs new powers for the police And I'm afraid new powers for the police are never good because they always overdo it always do stupid things They brought bringing in a thing where I think the police can seize drone equipment on site and I can't remember what the exact details are, but there's one of two other slightly sinister Things and I know that at some point over the next year or two I am going to be reporting on police harassment of drone flyers I'm probably going to be reporting on some kid who's flying his DJI spark Sort of somewhere safe and he's doing it responsibly and he's doing it away from an airport not over people But some gammon has rung up the police and he's being carted off to the nick. I don't want to write those stories I don't want you to be in that position. Please all of you Be as responsible as you can. Please don't get yourself arrested because I'm sure that the police will be looking for people to arrest It's that's the way they they roll isn't it? at this point We start see a bit of a fight back from the community first of all DJI obviously World's largest manufacturer of multi rotors They have put in some very very stiffly worded complaints and legal complaints about I think to the BBC about the quality of reporting Because there's been some desperately shoddy reporting on this. It's all underway at the moment I've reported about the complaint going in to Hackaday from Hackaday I don't think that any results have come out yet So we'll we'll wait and see on that one but a little more interesting is a bunch of Multiracial enthusiasts have come together and they form this thing air procs reality check Now if you Google them you guys their website. What they've done is they've gone through meticulously they've come up with a load of criteria and a scoring system for air proximity reports and they've gone through and Scored every single air procs Air proximity reports that is supposed to have a drone and they've worked out You know was this a drone so things like the one at Stanstead where it couldn't possibly have been a drone And if it wasn't a drone, what could it have been and so for instance there are ones where Well, if you look at a DSB data that there was the your aircraft here But over here somewhere in the distance of a different altitude was another aircraft Which from a distance look quite small was that what you saw because some of these things are coming in not from pilots They're coming in from cabin crew. They're coming in from passengers and all sorts and So they're trying to analyze these you know analyze Responsibly these reports and it's quite an interesting read because they do have very comprehensive guide to all the drone related instance in UK airspace But the most interesting thing they've done they put in a freedom of information request to the air proximity board Asking for what evidence they had of drone involvement and This is probably This is the smoking gun I'm going to read it even though you can read it off the board in all cases UK AB has no Confirmation that a drone has flown close to an aircraft other than the report made by the pilots similarly other than from the report of the pilots UK AB has no Confirmation that a drone was involved that is thermo nuclear because It's tempting here to say all stupid pilots. They just don't know what they're looking at pilots are not stupid pilots are highly trained experts in what they do their job is To keep you the passenger safe and they do an Stounding job of that air transport is the safest way to get from A to B is an off-quoted statistic that you're more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport than you are in Commercial aircraft and there's a reason for that pilots are very good at what they do the trouble is when you get a a site a Sighting report of a drone. It can't be considered reliable if there's nothing to back it up because Flyers have seen things in the air since the dawn of flight. I Mean they've various living First World War super weapons. They've been little green men. They've been Nazi super weapons They've been Russian super weapons They've been little gray men whatever to the point that if you say the word UFO people laugh at you When it's literally something unidentified in the air be it a plastic bag or whatever and so they don't want to say UFO because people go. Oh, he's been a little green man and So if they see something unfortunately the it's a lot easier to say it was a drone and So if somebody says there's a drone, it may well have been a drone, but without other evidence to corroborate what it was whether it was within the distance of the aircraft or Whether it was a drone. It can't be taken as reliable and here's the problem The air proximity boards Their reports provide the official record. So as far as the the law is concerned If it says it was a drone in the air proximity board report It was a drone even if what they're actually saying is somebody said they might have seen a drone and There's the nub of the problem that I'm talking about So to come to the conclusion what do we need there are several angles to this The first one is the air proximity board themselves. We need meaningful incident reports now It depends how the air proximity board see their job if their job is to investigate They are not doing a good job at all They are simply writing down a few things people tell them and displaying it as absolute fact If that is their job, they are not being competent However, if their job is just to report what people say They need to be very very clear that this is just reports of what people say because currently we're in the Odd position where the public and the press and the government that are treating their work as the official record of what actually happened When in fact, it's actually just a record of some people said this now they need to very quickly Decide which side of that coin they're on and if they're not Investigating and these are not the official record of the truth of what actually happened They need to be damn clear about that and they need to make sure that their reports reflect that there is no Evidence and no corroboration of drones appearing. I strongly suspect that they wouldn't be so lax in their reporting if the Incidents Involved to airliners coming close to each other, but that's Requirement for meaningful content seems to have become absent when the word drone is mentioned I think whichever way they need to do a better job Then we need competent police investigations I mean British police they have a history of incompetence when it comes to major incidents that are beyond their normal remit of speed cameras and burglars and all those kind of stuff I mean when they when they are embarrassed They normally try to conceal it because they cannot be wrong. They've got a culture in which they cannot be wrong So you get something like a few years go after the September 11 attacks They shot down this shot this brilliant Brazilian bloke on the tube in London and this tissue of lies Fell away like the skins of an onion first of all He was a terrorist and then if I know he's a Brazilian then it was oh he ran through the tube station and jumped over the Barrier no he didn't use to tick it and then oh he had a gun or say I can't remember the full details But this tissue of lies and it came down to no we saw a brown bloke and we gunned him down and They apply this to these kind of things. They cannot be wrong. They cannot backpedal and so They paint themselves into this corner where they massively overreact and then they can't pull back from the edge They have to go further and further and further They do things like our bloke with the 3d printer earlier. They come up with Us a rubbish and presented an absolute fact in front of the media and when you've done that you can't backpedal They come up with so-called drone wreckage, which they're since they haven't produced any then I'm I think we can draw the conclusion There was no drone record wreckage. They just found some random stuff or we didn't even find anything And they do things like arresting the usual suspects I mean if you follow the history of the troubles in Ireland, you'll have heard of things like the Birmingham pub bombers very nasty bombing in Birmingham and The real bombers were let off scot-free and they just went and rounded up some Irish builders and said they've done it in the case of The Gatwick closure they just rounded up the nearest drone enthusiast because I had to have done it right you know and that's no way to Investigate these kind of incidents I think a simple rule of thumb should be if you don't know what you're doing or don't know what you're talking about back away and Hand over to somebody who does I'm sure the CAA or whichever have Investigators who know what they're talking about when it comes things like this the police should admit when they don't know something Admit when they've got something wrong and back away and everybody would have a much nicer time of it Then we need a responsible press reporting my apologies for that We need responsible press reporting the standard of reporting in this has been the worst of the British gutter press Sensationalism outright lies manufactured stories I mean things like that video that I'm not saying wasn't in the Daily Mail car park, but There's nothing to say it wasn't We need Responsible reporting when it comes to so-called experts the typical thing the BBC would do when they're talking about a drone story Would be to bring on an airline pilot and the airline pilot would of course say oh, yes, you know the drones are bad Okay, because they don't know any better. They know nothing about drones Talking to an airline pilot about a drone story is the rough equivalent of talking to a super cank captain About a kayak story because they're both boats, right? I mean, I'm sure if there was a super canker incident They wouldn't bring in a kayaker or vice versa So why are they bringing in an airline pilot to talk about a drone story the BBC actually have Experts drone flyers on their staff one of them is a member of my maker space If you've ever watched BBC sports coverage all the drone flights are done by Super competent multi rotor flyers if they can't tell me that they can't get an expert Who knows what they're talking about on they just haven't tried And finally we need comprehensive training of a crew and by a crew. I mean cabin crew as well as Pilots now we've all seen this image. I haven't credited it. I don't know who did it But it's gone all around the internet now It's easy to standing or haha pilots can't Recognize drones and it's not fair to have a go at pilots comes back to what I said earlier pilots are super competent people who? You are entirely justified in putting your life in their hands because they know what they're doing and they Do a very difficult job very well this is just a little area of their job that is obviously deficient in their training and to be honest, I Think it would help all round if they were trained. This is what a drone looks like This is what a drone looks like at this distance This is what an aircraft can look like at that distance kilometers away and it's danger that it can be mistaken from it for a drone I think that would really help and it would help to ease tensions between the different communities that use the sky because I don't think responsible multi-rotor flyers want pilots to be Annoyed with them and to be honest. I don't think Pilots want to be annoyed by ultra-rotor flyers, and I think that good training would help in this respect Finally we need to keep our own house in order If we fly drones or multi-rotors, whatever we call them We need to make sure that we do it by the book at all times And if we encounter people who aren't doing it by the book people who think oh, it's okay I'll fly over an airport nobody will notice or I'll fly over a crowd or I'll do stupid things Then they need to be bought a book and we need to be on the right side in this. We can't afford to Do the wrong thing here. The logo there is drone safe drone safe UK. I think that's actually that website produced by the Air traffic control people in the UK and it goes through it's very sort of handy checklist and diagrams and stuff of Where you can fly how you can fly and where you shouldn't fly which is things like under 400 feet ceiling 50 meters away from people obviously not near Airports or whatever and if you're not sure whether you're near an airport or something Then it's easy enough the place is online You can check that and it will show you on the map where you are and where the no fly zone ends For instance about a week after the Heathrow nuts about other the Gatwick incident There was a bloke arrested near Heathrow. He wasn't a terrorist or anything like that He was some poor bloke who'd got a drone for Christmas and taken it to his nearby park to fly it The trouble is his park was in West London right next to Heathrow. So he wasn't a bad drone fly He was what I think we would call a pillow So we have to keep our house in order It's the responsibilities on the air procs board the police and the journalists But it's just as much on us as the multi-rotor flying community if we don't do this Part of the jigsaw isn't completed So that's it. Thank you very much for listening Hackaday covers drone multi-rotor stories if you follow the hackaday.com for that category for that drone hyphen hacks you'll see both Projects people have done with multi-rotors and you'll see the Unfolding air traffic control kind of stories that I've been talking about With that, thanks very much for listening and does anybody have any questions? This is a bit. I'm scared about Thank you. I see the first question over there Can you hear me? Yes, I can. I'm sorry as to say you're afraid of questions and nevertheless I'm gonna do it. I was wondering one thing you didn't mention if I remember correctly The British army was called in With some drone surveillance gear and drone detection gear. Yes, that's correct And did anything surface out of what they did? Like we didn't see anything or we did see or whatever so another Piece of the puzzle to say there wasn't nothing at all not that I am aware of yes I think it's another piece of the puzzle say there's nothing at all Generally, they call out the army not because they need the army But because it's a public reassurance thing governments like doing that They pulled out the army various times during the war against terror craze a few years ago And it's a public thing. There's blokes in uniform with big guns. So we're all safe, right? So yes as far as I know they didn't find anything. Thank you And Yes, thanks for your talk Well, what I'm missing from the story is basically should be possible Giving the British experience of radar to actually did deck the drones with radar Because well you have lots of experience with the chain home systems back many years ago Yeah, but there's also books to actually learn yourself concepts of radar I mean Mark Danny wrote a book already in 2007 about many concepts that you're used in radar It's called blip buzz buzz and ping. It's very readable Even if you don't have a mathematical background. Yeah, that way you can maybe also use passive radar to detect drones now As I understand it, I did ask this question of I mean the great thing about that our community Is there are people who know about all sorts of wonderful things? And I did actually find through my local make space as associated community somebody who's worked on radar all his life Military radars that you can't tell me about so new his stuff and I asked him Why can't it just detect stuff and what it came down to as I understand it now? I'm not a radar expert. I'm just relaying was that they have lots of radars on aircraft But they're designed as a airports, but they are designed to detect big airliners. They're not designed to take little drones Now I'm told that there are Such systems that can detect drones and these are the things the governments of great fanfare said That's what they're investing in whether they can or not. I don't know now I believe there is a transponder system being bought in by the FAA in the United States Are there American drone flies here can confirm that? But the trouble with the transponder system is all the way like legitimate and responsible flyers will fit the transponder you get some pillow cord as this Simer or ever from Banggood's he's not gonna put a transponder on it and he's going to fly So the transponder system only works if everybody plays by the book I hope that helps There any further questions anybody Over there I suppose it's a partially a question and partially a statement and that is One thing that has come to light in the UK at least recently is the drone register as well Okay, they're going to want people to register themselves register their aircraft Having just mentioned about that couple that got arrested because of a Facebook post about a model helicopter He had from years ago One of my biggest concerns within the drone world Especially is that all these entities that want people to register so that they can find you they know you They know who you are and where you are Without anyone really thinking about you know a criminal doesn't Rob a bank with their getaway car being their daily driver They don't put a neon sign that says oh, yeah, I'm robbing the bank, but I'm doing it safely or whatever So if you're gonna be I don't know flying at an airport illegally Either you're so uneducated as to the legal system that you haven't registered like you mentioned And you're breaking the law or you're intentionally not registering and I wondered What your opinion is when it comes to if you thought about any methodology other than say DJI is geo fencing system For protecting people from themselves essentially stupid proofing the technology Well, that's actually we didn't ask Kakaday on that you know if Detecting drones and stopping these things happening is so difficult Yeah, what would the community suggest it's quite funny because half the community says are you're working for the man? And you're asking us to come up with things without realizing they were just the community I would say with the whole thing of being on the government list of enthusiasts or whatever I don't see that as that sinister and the reason is for my Experiences wearing another hat. I'm a radio amateur Which means I'm on a government list of radio amateurs probably half people in the audience are radio amateurs and there are all sorts of people do naughty things with the radio spectrum and Generally, they don't go after the local radio amateurs when that happens They will often go and ask the local radio amateurs to help and the radio amateurs will help and I suspect that will probably Happen with multi-rotor flyers as well that when there's somebody doing dodgy things They will ask the local multi-rotor flyers to do you know anything about this and I'm guessing if they're responsible flyers They'll say well actually no or yes depending on the answer As to other technologies The answer is it's not my field of expertise Knowing who you are by the way This is Jared one of the multi-rotor experts who got me interested in this story in the first place knowing who you are I suspect you probably have more of an idea than I do about it Are there any questions? Okay, then thank you Jenny. Thank you very much. I would like to give her another applause