 Good morning, welcome to Kwok Talk, I'm Crystal here on Think Tech Tuesday morning at 11 o'clock. We today are going to talk about the oldest profession in the world, which hasn't changed but has morphed into different concepts. But today it's really interesting, it's a historical look at it. We're going to talk about prostitution during World War II, specifically in Chinatown. So you're thinking, alright, Chinatown, all those dirty little stalls with the Chinese women catering to all the sleazy Asian men. Well, to my surprise, there is a huge supply and demand during the war for the Navy, for all the guys who are there. And so really, really interesting stuff. Join us now, we're going to talk about this whole exposed Honolulu, a little dirty kind of an alley that we should talk about. So our wonderful guest today is Carter, Carter Churchfield, who actually conducts tours in Chinatown specifically to cover the Red Light District, right? The seedy side of World War II. Love it. Love it. What's not seedy about it? Well, let's talk about it. Well, I've been doing these tours for about three years. And before this, I was giving tours in Seattle, Washington, so I learned a lot about prostitution in the Wild West. And you might be surprised, a lot of the traditions from the Wild West made it to Honolulu for the World War II prostitution ring in Chinatown. Wait, so they traveled from Seattle to come over because there was a, like, a new business opportunity, so to speak? Well, San Francisco specifically, now prostitutes have been an export of San Francisco for a while. That's where Seattle got its prostitutes from, Portland. And then plenty of the places during the gold rush. Why San Francisco? Because why did it start there? Well, the railroads came from the East Coast, and enough of them ended in San Francisco, and it was an established city. Oh, and then the gold rush, that was what first brought people over. Right. So it wasn't just catering to Asian men. We're talking about gold rush. I think, you know, the Kooli is coming over, but then there are all the people who kind of came in from the Midwest and... Right. And even the Civil War, that wiped out a generation of menfolk. So the women had to support themselves, sometimes support children, and historically, that put a lot of women, sent a lot of women out west, hoping to make enough money, send it back home. Right. Yeah, to feed themselves, feed their families. So before we jump into the World War II business, right before that, what was Chinatown like? I mean, there's always been prostitution, and I don't know why it kind of likes to center around places like Chinatown, but what was it like, and what's the difference between the pre- and post-war time? Well, it was more of a business district. The red light district was actually Evelay, which is where the Dole Canary is today, and you know, the movie theater. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So easy to remember. You can think of it as Evelay. And... Is that your coins term? Yes. Okay. So, and that was before the sailors came, before the military came. It was mostly Asian women, because their customers were the plantation workers. Yeah. So men from China, Japan, Korea, and they want to be able to talk to women in their own language. Often in situations like this, they're not just after physical satisfaction, they're looking for some kind of emotional interaction, too. That's interesting, because usually when you think of prostitution, you think, Wambanbegumam, you don't want to have that connection, but you're talking about a different type of kind of a companion. Yes. And there's, you know, there's a range. There's a range of customers. There's a range of service providers, and a lot seem to go for an emotional connection as well. Okay. Well, that's good. That's promising that not all men are bastards. No. Yeah. I need a little more. I'm not going there. So we say they cater to the Asians, so these Asian ladies were from Hawaii, or they came also from the mainland? No, they came from Asia. Or from Asia. Yeah. How did they come over? Oh, like they did. So, you know, the madams would get here, set up shop, they want to recruit more women. So I would, I mean, there's a tradition in China, you know, it's not as taboo there to be a prostitute, and in Japan, too, you can be a prostitute and then maybe go be a wife. And in the West, it changes everything. There's before and after, and you can never rejoin society. You are soiled, you are less of a, you're not a human being anymore. I think that happens worldwide, though, no? It's a different mentality in other countries. Okay. All right. Okay. So then we jump to, I hate to jump because there's so much to talk about even before. Maybe we'll do that another time. Oh, I can get to Chinatown, yeah. All right. Basically, the cops didn't have very much control in Evelay, so they shut it down and kind of reopened it, the red light district in Chinatown. Now the buildings, they're owned by Chinese landlords, and they ended up renting to a lot of Irish madams. Now this is where things shift. The sailors started coming in droves, and these white sailors from the mainland, they want white women, they want the girl next door. So Irish women were being imported through San Francisco. Okay, good old San Fran. Yes, that's the supply of the man. Right. Now, so it was funny, a lot of these women, the madams, they have clauses in their leases that say if prostitution gets thrown out of the island, they're released from their leases immediately. That way they're not trapped into these expensive leases. The leases between the landlord? And the madams, yes. And they know what kind of business they're going to be doing. Oh, yeah. And they're making a lot more money renting to a madam than they would a different business. Sure, the turnover is quick. Oh, absolutely. I can tell you how quick the turnover is. Oh, yeah, please. Yes, so with the introduction of this ridiculous gender ratio, we're talking so strictly single men of marriageable age to single women of marriageable age. One of the kinder statistics I read was 156 single men for every one single woman on the island. That is worse than Alaska. Right. Yeah. And what they say in situations like that, it's yes, the odds are good, but the goods are odd if you're a woman. But so how did they initiate the whole business kind of flushing over? Was it government backed or was it just kind of like slowly word of mouth, these mommasans, wealthy Irish mommasans would say, hey, come on, there's good business over here. I would think word of mouth really, yes, people letting other people know. And there's precedent for the situation in like the Wild West towns where men are greatly outnumbered women. So some of the traditions, so to speak, made it out here. For instance, a time limit. And this time limit was usually three minutes per man. Wow. And in some of the World War II towns, it was even two minutes, 30 seconds. But between the men, was there like a time where they could change the sheets or, I don't know. Well, since it's a numbers game, and now a lot of the women in Hawaii working in this way, they knew that their window for making a ton of money was the war. So because they knew it was going to close, they were trying to get the numbers. Right. And that leads to a system called the bullpen being imported. The bullpen, again brought from the Wild West, is where each woman had four or maybe five different rooms. Okay. So she'd have a waiting man in each, she could just go from room to room to room. Oh, geez. Yeah, pretty sensational stuff. And these are just your, would you say, lower class girls from? There's a range now. So they're coming from all over the United States. Okay. Yeah. And then they end up in San Francisco, and then they can audition to come to Hawaii. You have to audition? Well, you've got to prove you can do. Perform? Yeah, perform within that window. Okay. Right? Now, the most famous woman to come out here was Jean O'Hara. Okay. She's from Chicago. All right. And she is unusual. For instance, she was the daughter of a dentist. Uh-huh. Yeah, so she. Oh, no. How did her parents feel about this? She got into the profession, she said, because she wanted the jewelry and the clothing that the ladies could afford. She saw the women down the street. Right. And saw their independence. Now, this is a woman who is incredibly feisty and by the time, so she got into this profession, and then once she decided maybe she wanted to get out, she was too ashamed to go back home. So, remember what I said earlier about in the West, in the United States, once your virtue is lost, that changes you. You're not quite a human being. Right. But why did she become so famous? What did she do? Was she like a top performer or the men were going to want it her? Well, she wrote an expose. Uh-huh. So, most women, when they get into the trade, they use fake names because their dream is to get out of the trade and be able to take their money and move to a new place, pass themselves off as a widow and be respectable. But she did not care. She wrote this expose which talks about how this, by the way, a legal prostitution ring because prostitution is illegal in the territory of Hawaii is still being run by the cops. Wait. So, if it's not legal, who is this? Was this just a random photo of a typical prostitute? Yeah, that looks like a lady enjoying herself. I don't think she was a prostitute because she's out somewhere where she can be photographed. Right. And the lives of the prostitutes were highly regulated by the vice squad. If, by the way, they usually prefer the term sporting girls throughout the Wild West. If a sporting girl is out and about, she's not allowed in the nice cafes. She's not allowed in nice restaurants. She's not allowed in golf courses. Who set these rules? Wait. Who set these rules? You said it's the squad. This is the police who are running this business. Who are keeping it orderly. Yes. So, the government was aware of, oh, very, and profiting greatly. Yeah. So, how did the money go? So, how much was taken out of the mamasans and then given off to the girls? Oh, that's a great question. All right. So, breaking it down, each trick was about three dollars for three minutes. Yeah. Out of each three dollars, the girls got to keep two dollars. Well, the madam took a dollar right off the top. That's how the madam makes a shocking amount of money. Are you ready for how much money the madams were making? Okay. Okay. All right. Upwards of $150,000 a year. In those days. Yes. In the thirties and forties. What is that worth today? Yeah. About two million upwards. Are there any stories of these mamasans? Have they told or released any, there's no documentations of these ladies? I haven't found any information, mostly people focus on Gino Herra. Right. Okay. She was, in a word, shameless. Right. She didn't care. She was going to make a lot of money and not let anybody keep her down. So, you said that they brought in the all-American girl to cater to the fanciest of the all-American boy. But in the Army and Navy everywhere, it's not just all white boys. I mean, there were Asians and blacks. Thank you for asking about that. Okay. Yes. So, what was imported with the white servicemen was also a deep-seated racism. Of course. Yes. So, they want to, they don't want to think that they're having sex with the same women who are having sex with non-whites. So, what the brothels end up doing, some of them is they put two different doors. Okay. The servicemen can go through one door for $3, longer lines. Right. And locals and non-whites can go through the other door. And they're only charged $2. But it's the same women. Yeah. Wait. Wait. So, the servicemen didn't know it was the same women. But, yeah. It's just a different door. Yeah. You have a picture of all these sailors relining up in Chinatown. Oh, yes. I think we have that in there. That was, it's in there. Now, this is Chinatown, right? Okay. It's somewhere in the area. I have not been able, I mean, it could be the building doesn't exist anymore. Please don't tell me this is the line for their three-minute excursion. It possibly. But here's an even better photograph with even more men. And this one I have placed. This is on Merchant Street. Oh, okay. The building doesn't exist anymore. But that's the Black Cat Cafe. Okay. And if you watch the movie Pearl Harbor with Ben Affleck, there's a scene where he's in a diner, which is the Black Cat Cafe. Okay. Well, wow, wow, wow. So, so much stuff. Carter, we're going to take a quick break when we come back. We're going to get thrown right back into it like we were lining up for it. And you can bring us into those rooms and tell us more juicy details of what it was then. The protocol. Don't go away. Aloha. This is Reg Baker with Business in Hawaii. We're a show that broadcasts every Thursday at two o'clock. We would love to hear from you, and you can reach us in several different ways. We have a hotline that you can call in at 415-871-2474, or you can email us at thinktechhawaii.com, or you can tweet us at thinktechhi. Looking forward to hearing from you and seeing you on our next show. Aloha. Aloha. I'm Kaui Lucas, host of Hawaii Is My Mainland, here on Think Tech Hawaii every Friday afternoon at 3 p.m. Start your powhuna weekend off with the show where I talk to people about issues pertinent to Hawaii. You can see my previous shows at my blog, kauilukas.com, and also on Think Tech's show. Sorry. Welcome back to Croc Talk, talking about World War II prostitution in Chinatown, and the supply and demand and catering to all those hungry, horny sailors out there. So we're back with Carter and Churchfield, and we just left off showing a photo of this really crazy times when they were lining up right in Chinatown for a little release. Yes. There was a pretty strict protocol. When a sailor would get in line, sometimes he would have to wait over two hours, and when he goes through the door, well, first of all, the brothels got its own bouncer. How many businesses were there? There were about 15, around 15, they were called boogie houses at this point in time. So it's the bouncer's job to do the first screening, and if the guy seems tame, like not too drunk, or not likely to be violent. Well, that's the thing, were they mostly drunk before their performance? Yeah. Then three minutes, is that going to do it? Well, that's why the girls had to audition. So then you go up the stairs. These are always on the second floor of buildings to be able to maintain order. Did you say that these buildings still exist in Chinatown? Yeah, many of them. That's what I do on my tour. We'll talk you back to that later. You can tell them. So you go upstairs, and then you interact with a cashier if you're a sailor, and the cashier is usually the madam. You pay your $3 and $1 bills, and the madam might give you either like a ship, like a wooden ship, or a ticket. Like a token kind of a thing? Yes. Then you go into a little cubicle when it's free, and you get undressed to your comfort level. You wait till a woman walks in, then you hand her the ship or the ticket. She saves them up. At the end of her shift, she gets paid accordingly. Right. So she turns in her tokens for how much money she made that day. So sometimes in the Wild West, they would use quarks from champagne bottles. Okay. So now, still more protocol. Oh. The woman gets to inspect the man's genitals for signs of disease. Oh. This is the most important part for her. Well, that's good. They educated them to at least go for that. Wait, were condoms created then? They were, but are you ready for this? Okay. Who are they made out of? Various things. Sometimes, and this is going to gross you out, sheep's guts or silk. Yeah, but that's more natural. Isn't it? I don't know. I try not to think about it quite honestly. Okay. All right. All right. So where was I? All right. Condoms were illegal in the United States. 1930s. Yeah. This is from like about 18, I think 1887, anything that prevented conception was illegal. Right. Because it promotes immorality. Oh, yes. Oh, shame, shame. Yeah. Right. So wait, who provided the condoms then? Oh, they didn't have condoms. So they didn't. Yeah. Wait, the 40s though. No, early 40s. Well, all right. I'm sure if you wanted to bring your own, you could use it, but I'm talking about in the Boogie House. You have time to have it on. Yeah, three minutes. Yeah, exactly. All right. So the girls get to inspect the man's genitals for signs of disease. Okay. If he passes the inspection, she gets to wash them off with a clean wash cloth. You wash us them? Oh, nice. And then that's when the three minutes starts. Okay. Yes. Now, after a little buzzer. Well, egg timers were often used in brothels from since they were invented. Is it the mama son in charge of the timer or no? No, it would be the girl. The mama son's out there taking money. Right. Money's the most important part. So she should really be sure. Sure. That's why they're all here is the money. Right. So after the three minutes, the sailor was then expected to visit a prophylactic station somewhere in the area. Yes. Let me just say, we've come a long way in our understanding of how pregnancy happens, how diseases spread. Right. They just didn't know. They thought that you could go to a prophylactic station afterwards, run by the military by the way, and you could get a colloidal silver solution, rub it on your genitals, and that would prevent disease. You know what it does? What? Nothing. That even, all right. No. And that's like posts, you know, activities. Yes. So it doesn't make sense. And you know, a lot of, so a lot of the women here, well, they all had to be screened every week for disease. Right. And if they tested positive, they were pulled off the floor. Now, remember how I broke down the $3 dollar off the top of the street to the madam? Yes. Out of the remaining $2, the woman has to pay for her own gyneological exams weekly, her own tests, as well as tip the maid, tip the bouncer, pay for room and board. Oh. So, yeah, that $2 gets skimmed down. Right. Oh, and you know, pay off the vice squad. Oh, so there's a lot of kind of the under... Yeah, a lot of graft. Yeah. Were there violence and a lot of abuse towards these women? In this particular system, not as much as other systems, the girls, I mean, this is going to sound funny, but it was said that because of the way their lives were regulated, they were living in the boogie houses. You weren't allowed to have alcohol. You weren't allowed to have men in the back rooms. Uh-huh. It was a lot like a nunnery. Wow. Except... That's kind of a contradictory comparison, but... Uh-huh. And they had regulations they couldn't come out at a certain time of the day. Yes, the boogie house curfew is 10.30 at night. Uh-huh. And, of course, they weren't allowed to go to Waikiki. Why? What was Waikiki like during that time? It was for a... Is that a bird club in Chinatown? Yes, this is where Bar 35 is today. No, Bar 35, but okay. It's a... They got good pizza. Um, so... And they had jazz greats come out here. They had Duke Ellington. Oh. They had Sarah Vaughn come out here, and there's a plaque with her name on it. And wouldn't you know they misspelled her name in the sign. Yeah, they left out her G-spot. Wait, so this was kind of a bar slash kind of hangout slash prostitution... Oh, no, this photograph was taken after the war. Oh, okay, so where they kind of like... And prostitution ended very dramatically here. So, remember Gina... And Hera. Right, she writes this expose. Right. And this is kind of in revenge, because she did get beaten up by a police officer very savagely. So, she writes this expose. Right. And it details all the illegal activity going on here. Now, a copy of this actually makes it into the hands of some congressman in Washington, D.C. And they... I'm sure they had no clue before that. That this was all going on. Or that it was so public. Right, okay. So, they contact people in power here and they say, hey, if this is actually what's going on, you can kiss your dreams of statehood goodbye. So... So, they quickly cleaned up. In one day, the chief of police managed to deport over half the prostitutes from Chinatown back to San Francisco. How many are we talking about, roughly? About between 200 and 250. Okay, all in the small space of Smith Hotel. Oh, yeah. Just that whole... Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, yes. So, the boundaries for this district, the girls had to live and work and live their lives inside the barrier between Merchant Street and Baratania and New Iwanu and River Street. Okay. So, very small. How did the Chinese feel about them kind of taking over that whole area? Well, the ones who were making money off of renting to the madams were super happy. Oh, sure. They were making tons of money. Right. Then, of course, there were a lot of people who could sell food or anything else. Right. So, anything else that was diverting or fun to the sailors made a lot of money, even shoe shine boys. Right. But then there's, you know, the regular people who aren't making money, who just want to go about their daily lives. Yeah. So, the pictures you've seen, you've seen sailors in their white uniforms. Right. And imagine women wearing their native dress, Chiang Sam's, Kimono's, or Moo Moo's. Right. And they've got to push through these lines of sailors just to go to the baker's or the butcher's. Yeah, because you have a picture. I don't think we have this on the line, but if you can hold it up. This is a small picture of, like, the girls at this one hotel. Oh. Hotel. Oh. Oh, yeah. Boogie House. So, and they're quite, I mean, it's a fuzzy picture, but they're quite glamorous. Oh, yeah. It's a pretty justice. This is a promotional photograph, you know, designed to entice the men to pay them a visit over the other Boogie Houses. Right. And this is, so, if you go to Chinatown, there's Mauna Kea Market. That's where the clock tower is. Right. There's the bigger entrance that opens onto Hotel Street and directly across is the building that was the new Senator Hotel. This is the most famous Boogie House in Chinatown because it was immortalized in the movie From Here to Eternity. So, From Here to Eternity, famous book, famous movie. In the movie, it's called the New Senator Hotel. And the women who worked there are portrayed by Donna Reed now and other actresses. Wow. So, how reflective do you think that film was of the times? Was it a pretty genuine depiction, you would say? Yes. Great. The author, James Jones, he would frequent the New Senator Hotel himself. And so, he actually got to know the ladies and base the characters on the ladies. And the block that the New Senator is in also has Wofat Restaurant, which a lot of locals will remember. Was that my car? Yeah. And that restaurant was open for 100 years up until 1982. And there's also scenes from Here to Eternity that take place in that restaurant. So, it's a very historical block. Okay, very cool. I remember you mentioning before the interview that the men had to come, they had a curfew to visit Chinatown. Tell us about that. So, through some trial and error, the military realized that if you let the men stay out past 2 p.m., so many of them would get so drunk and disorderly that it would require a tremendous effort to restore order. So, their curfew is 2 p.m. So, they go there in the morning? Yes, from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. and that means that the prostitutes had to meet their quota by 2 p.m. Wow. Morning, well, that's okay because morning bonus will work for the sailors. Yes. Roll it a bit, get on that shuttle. Now, in our short time left, I mean, it's fascinating information and such an interesting look at history through the prostitution. Carter, can you just give us a little taste or, well, you have given us a taste, but your tour, you've created this tour of the Red Lake District in Chinatown. What's that about? Let us know how to do it. Well, I started learning about the more salacious history in Chinatown and I realized no one's really talking about it. So, I created this historical walking tour. You can go and see some of the boogie houses where the girls worked out of and also learn more about the motto. Let's go get stewed, screwed, and tattooed. Oh. Yes. So, I can show you the oldest bar in Hawaii, Smith's Union Bar, and this is where boys from the Arizona would go and drink and get stewed and they could go around the corner, maybe get tattooed at Sailor Jerry's Tattoo Parlor. Now, it's called Old Ironsides Tattoo and then, of course, I talk about the lives of the women and also how the police were involved. Oh, yeah. I like that. I like that. You're taking all this nitty-gritty stuff out into the table. Wonderful stuff. So, people can just go online to search for your tour. Yes. The website is HonoluluExposed.com. I give these tours most days at 9.30 a.m. Right. Right in early. Get that thing going. Well, Carter, it's been fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing all that with us. Thank you so much for having me. And, you know, open your eyes to a different angle on history and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you for tuning in.