 unless I might not be that comedian as he was. Thanks for that. First of all, please do interrupt me anytime, because it would be very nice if we could have a talk with each other and not only me talking to you, especially to all the hill-hackers who are in the room. You're also very invited to add your perspective as well. So, yeah, my name is Sva. I'm an anthropologist by training and part of this hacker scene since 10 years or something. And this is what Kiran and Zainab were asking me about. So I got in contact with Haskeek the first time in 2013 and first I just got to meet them in their IRC channel, which was really alive back then, and later in Meetspace in Domblore, because the office was a sharing office with the Center for Internet and Society, which as I was working back then. So meanwhile, a lot of things happened and that's why I'm standing here, telling you about this. So yeah, those two guys approached me and asked me to share my experience with communities. They asked me what does it take and how are you guys doing that with the CCC in Germany and what the heck happened that Helix was such a beautiful amount of people engaged and passionate and then once you have those people, what do you do to keep them together? So that's quite some questions, which I barely allowed myself to ask, but I said, okay, I'll be thinking about it. It's a nice opportunity to do that and I'm telling you this is just, I think the beginning of a thought. So let's first start with some introduction. You might not have heard about Helix or CCC, so whom of you knows about the Kiros Computer Club or the Kiros Communication Congress? Okay, yeah, barely anyone, but okay, there were some hands. Okay, this is some logos of it. Maybe it already gives an idea, but I'll be telling you about it. And then who of you have heard about Helix hacking and making in the Malayas? Okay, that's some more, nice. And who has heard about Hack Beach? It's gonna happen just now for the first time okay, great. So yeah, the Kiros Computer Club. That's founded in 1981. It got an official association in 1986. We also founded a company for running the events in 1999 and in 2003 we also founded a foundation. The foundation is in brackets because officially it's not connected because it's already kind of a hack to have those three institutions to interact with the world outside. So you have a company you can create builds, you can receive builds and all that stuff. You have an association for the people and you have a foundation where you can receive donations. But the most important part is the clip, the insight. So you don't need to be a member, you don't need to be anything. So the company also doesn't have employed anyone. Everyone is just part of the club. Chaos, yes. As decentralized as possible, there are around 30 different associations all over the German speaking area. Everyone is doing their own things but it's all about freedom and it's all for free. Main topics is at the one hand side providing infrastructure like conferences and hackerspaces, for knowledge sharing, for bringing people together. At the other hand side it's also stuff like helping to fight legal cases at law, helping people like when there's any interesting case arising we just support them and then transparency in government, freedom of information, human rights, all that stuff. What we don't have is a nice website, I'm really sorry for that. So if you click CCD, you'll click on the English button that thing will happen. But the conferences, there's events CCD, this is Englishmedia.cc is a really nice repository of the last 15 years of conference talks and they are small ones and big ones and they sometimes have different focuses but they're all about to get together and share. So I'll be just browsing through some pictures now. That's the main hall of the Congress as it takes place the last three years in that house. It's yeah, people are also just sitting there and working together so it's not like here that you're attending the conference and you're just sitting in the hall, you're also attending the conference like that. So you take your stuff with you and you're sitting there and doing things. That's like yeah, a lot of space for people to just sit and hang around and then also those assemblies, that's droops being together, bringing their stuff. That's the house from the outside that was the first time in 1984. Then that was the old venue in Berlin and also we go camping. That's how it looks like when we go camping. That was just this year as well. This is a picture from 2011 though but yeah, it's also about talks, it's about bringing devices, exchanging. It's about art as well and also freaky stuff. There's also stuff for kids and really nice installations and all these things and everything is done voluntary. No one is employed, hundreds are taking up responsibility and thousands are supporting it. Then we also do party because we love technology and playing around with it. We also have a robot that's making cocktails and stuff like that. Then Hilux. That's in the mountains. In Daramshala, in Himachal Pradesh. So somewhere where the mouse pointer is right now, I'm zooming in a bit here. So you can see here, now I'm reading this, that's nice. This is the mountain range which is in our back and it already goes up to 4,000, 4,300 and something and it's kind of the first mountain range of the Malayas. So we are at the foothills very at the bottom which means our hack base for example is at 1,200 meters and this is where we live and where we started to have the idea to be a coalition of independent community volunteers, just a group of people doing things. So the main idea of Hilux is two things. One is bringing together hackers and makers for having more self-motivated, free and open developments in technology as a gathering of the open information society focused on the love and joy of free and open source technology and knowledge and also to form connections. And then we have the kids and the locals. We want to educate children in the interest of the general public. We hope to get them critically thinking and creatively to develop thoughts and ideas with the tools and knowledge they will be exposed to. So we invite various people and this is also where now also this community thing comes up a bit already. So it's really not easy to define. So here we made a definition of free thinkers and thinkers, creative minds and artists, techies and hobbyists, hackers and makers, crafters and scientists, humanists and engineers, activists and coders, geeks and nerds, designers and philosophers, roboters and artificial intelligence and other interesting beings doing interesting stuff. So yeah, it's not easy to define and this is what I'm trying to do today. We invited to share, demonstrate, teach and talk about things you love and it doesn't have to be about technology necessarily. It's about the passion you have doing something. It's about being the nerd in something. Then also please leave your suits at home and pack all your camping gear. So yeah, here next happened in the first time in October, 2014 for two and a half weeks. The next time was in, oh, I forgot that, in May and June 2015 for around five, five or six weeks and next year will already be April, May and June. There is a two month code camp organized from Freeman from Jagai in Bangalore. So they'll be doing the code camp up there. So everyone is very invited to think about coming up. The core time will be end of May, beginning of June and it ends then beginning of June with the conference itself. So yeah, here's some pictures of that. So we tried to harvest some hardware to do stuff there. We did stuff with the kids, we had talks, we sat together and thinkered. We also had some fun with sports. That's an electronic unicycle, really nice device. Again, some talks, music, also carpentry and then arts. This is very nice, this is conductive tape so you can draw pictures and have lights in it. The kids really loved it and yeah. So we went to kids, we had great fun all together. Sorry about that and this is Hack Beach. So there's no pictures about Hack Beach because it didn't happen so far. It's gonna happen in November. So everyone is very invited to come down to Kerala and join us for the Hack Beach. So now you guys know about CCC in Hel-Hacks and you've learned that there's a nearly 35 year old community in Germany and I'm telling you this is really, like people are still active from that very beginning. I was just sitting with a friend for dinner last week who was one of the founders who was sitting at this table when they had the idea in 1981. And he won part of Ready Starts, it's acceptance because that friend, I mean he must be more than 20 years older than me but it doesn't matter. You don't even reckon it unless it's about something which happened when I was a kid or not even born or something, right? But one quality or one feature or characteristic to have it more neutral of this group is the full acceptance of everyone independent from any outer characteristics. So I pasted our anti-Harrisman statements. I don't like that name because I don't see any, like conferences need to have this nowadays apparently, tech conferences. So I put this, it's in Hel-Hacks.in slash F A Q, so it's just part of the FAQ. Are we going to be excellent to each other is the question. And the answer is yes, we all will be excellent to each other to provide a safe and friendly place for everyone regardless of religion, birth, age, caste, gender, sexual orientation, disability or any other outstanding element. We want to interact with each other truthfully and honestly at all times. So, and this is what we're trying to live and this is I think what we are living. So also at the congresses, which you just learned are like 12,000 people nowadays on one conference. It's still like we don't have any, like there's no accidents, there's barely any stealing happening. There is really a deep, deep acceptance and respect from each other. Which I think this acceptance of each other is based on a big trust and belief that everyone you're meeting in this context will be somewhat awesome and passionate about things you are bothered by too. So everyone just accepts the fact and accepts that it is a fact that he or she is just surrounded by interesting and intelligent people and that everyone is worth talking to in the first place. And doesn't matter if that person looks like a punk or is coming in a business suit. Okay, that really happens though. But it's worth talking to. I think it's similar here. You also most probably think that everyone who's in this building now for the JS foo would be worth talking to because he or she apparently is interested in the same thing. The difference is that here, maybe some of you haven't chosen to come here because it's just a job, right? You're like a coder every day, you have to make JS. And so you come here to talk to people about JS. Okay, that's work. So here it's about free stuff like what you do in your free time. So the acceptance also comes with respect. So I think at HillX also people had the same feeling that it was really breathtaking like how many interesting people were there. And like I met quite some people who said, oh my God, how can I like even talk to any of them? We were just like a hundred people and we were living together. We were living in tents, so we spent 24-7 together, but still it's not easy to get connected to everyone. And also to mention like everywhere there will be people not getting along with each other. Sure, and they might not or they not getting along with each other too well. But that's okay because we all learned to handle that online already, ignore. And when you ignore, you also accept that that person is there and that that person belongs to the group. And okay, I mean you don't like that person now or maybe you like that person but you can't just handle that person because for whatever reason you just don't like his nose. But you still accept the existence of that person within your group, which is also somewhat of a relationship. So you still respect that person and respect comes with acceptance and acceptance comes with respect. With the result that you are in a place where you can just be as you are. There's no mask you have to wear nothing. I had this once with a girlfriend, like a kindergarten girlfriend from my hometown. She's also living in Berlin. So when I'm in Berlin, I spent some time with her as well and with my like CCC people and often the two get together. So she's joining me for whatever place where she's done together with all the hackers and all that. And then she said once, she's feeling so comfortable with them and she's not a techie at all. She's an artist and she's an artist in this like theater scene. So she's surrounded by many, yeah, do you know the word diva? Like many artists who are very, yeah, also passionate but very, very like you, it's not easy to handle them, right? I mean, we all have this picture of like a freaky artist in mind. So she's surrounded by that people and she says she always has to wear a mask because it's always, there are so many intrigues. There's so much inner politics within this theater. You always have to think about whom you talk to, what you talk to. And she said in that group, she has the feeling that this is not there at all. Like people are just as they are and they just accept her as they are, as she is even though she's not a technologist at all. As an artist, she's still somewhat of a hacker but. So yeah, the respect and the acceptance. And then the next thing is trust. So I was already mentioning the trust, the trust which I have, for example, in this building. So I have the trust in Haskig if I'm a JavaScript hacker that everyone here will be an interesting person because yeah, this is a conference about this so I trust the environment but here it's about the trust amongst people. So being comfortably without being worried about who you are, where you come from and all that comes from the point that we are trusting that the people showing up in our context environment are somewhat great people. And that's the trust foundation we have in everyone by default. So we have this default trust to persons that they're nice, right? We just see this as a fact. But then we also build up personal trust within this group, within single persons. I also guess this was pretty strong at HillX because we actually lived together for weeks. So we had to share everything. We also shared, we had like 400 people we had eight bathrooms. So no one had a private bathroom. And so there it already starts, right? When you live together. So, and this is a point where you can establish deep relationships if you're open for it. And even if you're not open for it, you'll be making many connections and friends. And trust is something, I think it's one of the biggest things in our life we can get from someone. And it's the biggest thing we can give to someone. It comes with a big responsibility as well. And it also needs time and action. So you usually only trust in someone after you've seen that you can rely on that person. And we all know it takes seconds to destroy trust, but it takes a long time to establish it. All right. So this was now the acceptance, respect and trust is the three main points which I see within that group as the basic factors like the fundament we are standing on. And to draw a connection, I would like to ask you about your own examples. So I could think about your batch at college, which is such a group that you live together for years long. You went through many, many things and you have people you get along with, you have people you don't get along with, but still everyone belongs to the group and you're like having this deep trust and acceptance within this group. Can you relate to that? Do you have any other example? What would be like, have you experienced any other group where you have this feeling? Can be also really, I don't know, maybe your workplace or maybe you've been on a travel, like on a long journey with a group as a kid going out for two weeks somewhere and there you get this feeling. So you kind of are able to relate to it, right? Okay. So with this trust, we also have this web of trust. So everyone might be knowing it from the crypto side. I mean, who doesn't know the concept of web of trust in the nowadays cryptography? Okay. Who doesn't know wasn't maybe the right answer, who knows about it? Ah, okay, okay. So the idea is that you have trust change. So the easiest example is a friend at your door. Like someone's ringing at your door, you open the door, it's your friend, easy, you let him in, give him a chai, all fine. So next time it's your friend with another friend. But that other friend, you haven't seen him before never. So you only know your friend. Like person A is your friend, person B is a friend of your friend. So naturally you most probably let them in, both of them, and you serve them chai. Because it's a friend of your friend. So you have the trust in your friend that he's not bringing you any like stupid guy who's gonna like vomit in your living room, right? So this is the trust chain you can build. And another example is here, in this event or in other events at Hillhack's, at the CCC events very much. So Haskeek's also working with volunteers. I don't know how it exactly works, but I think they like sign up, and then they show up, and then they get a task. So you guys are just trusting that person that that person is doing anything well. And the only trust chain you have is that person came and got to know about you. So this is the only thing you know. It's just not, it's not a random person from the street. It's a person who came, entered this building, said, hi, I know about you, I wanna help you out. And I had this at Hillhack's very much. There was, for example, a person who came maybe a week before we actually started. And then we said, oh, we urgently need someone who's handling the finances, don't you wanna do that? And that poor guy was doing that great, like very, very grateful for that still, but we handed him over the whole money, the whole accounts, everything. Because we just thought, okay, why, like, I don't have any, there's no reason to mistrust, he found his way to Rocker in our village to the Hackbase. He knocked at our door and said, hi, I heard about Hillhack's, I wanna join you. So that's already fine. And I'm telling you, I barely, like, I cannot even imagine or remember that I got disappointed at this once. And at the Congresses, I'm in charge for, like, build up and tear down since many, many years. And there you handle every time. I mean, you have your group of people who's coming every year, but there will always be new people. And you can also make, like, little tests. You give someone a task, think that's similar here. And if that person fulfills that task, you'll give them, like, more difficult task, and at the end, he's in charge of everything. Same happened to me, though. And another example is Hacker Spaces. And if you come back, so you might have heard about Hacker Spaces, it's a living room of a hacker. It's a workspace, it's a place to just hang out and to, like, be together. And I'll be moving on into this a little bit deeper with the next slide, but to keep it as the example. I already had many of my Indian friends roaming around in Europe now the last three years. And I always guaranteed them, I guaranteed for them in, like, other Hacker Spaces. So one guy was in Amsterdam, so he said, oh, I would like to go to Cologne. It's, like, not far. And I said, sure. So I dropped the Cologne guys in a message and said, hey, there's this friend coming. You don't know him, but I know him quite well. And he went to stay over the night for three days, four days. That was never a problem, because I trust my friend that he's behaving well. And those guys in the Cologne Hacker Spaces trust me that I don't send them any, like, strange person. And also you get this acceptance then right ahead. Because they know, okay, this is a friend of Sva, so that must be, like, a good person. And that works very well. So also if you don't have the trust chain, many Hacker Spaces are open for visitors, by the way. They often mention it directly on hackerspaces.org. So when you roam around in Europe, and all of them are open for visitors which are not staying overnight, right? So you should definitely have a look. Because this thing, the Hacker Spaces is somewhat of a third space. There's this concept of Homike Baba who developed this in the social sciences. The third space which is besides your workplace and your family. So you have your home, you have your work, and then you have a third space. The third spaces can be various things and in that case, the Hacker Space fits very, very well. This is where people hang out. Many people who are living in a Hacker Space, they actually just go home to sleep. Not even that sometimes. And so the Hacker Space is a place where you have tools, where you have infrastructure, where you have everything you need to do your things, which you are doing while you are a technologist. And they all somewhat provide the same infrastructure and the same feeling. I had this once myself that I was on my way to the camp in the Netherlands in 2009. And I was coming from Munich, which is far southeast Germany. And Netherlands is northwest of Germany in a way. So I wanted to stop on the way once because driving by car that long I didn't want to. Soon I wasn't at the Cologne Hacker Space before. But I again just asked them, okay, can we drop by? And my friend I had with me hadn't had a driver's license, so I was the only driver. And when I came there, it was just the home. It was just like being at home. It was just like you arrived at home, you had a break, you had a rest, and then you continued. There was just everything we needed. And I had this feeling already quite often, especially when hackerspaces are having the same door system than we have, just like making the same noises. Yeah, many hackerspaces are openable by SSH or SSL certificates, so you don't need to have any key anymore. Anyway, so living together, living together in such a third space might also be something like a family question mark. So I mentioned their word already in the abstract of this talk. And I'm like usually in the Indian context I try to avoid it because here the actual like blood family structures still exist very heavily and construct many parts of your life. In the German hackerspaces and the CCC scene we are using that term actually very often and often very precisely for this kind of bond and relation we have with each other. In a family the bond is pretty easy to describe. It's blood and marriage, the latter results in the first. And you cannot choose your family. You cannot just decide that you're not a sister, a brother, a son, or a mother anymore. Those roles you have on you for your whole life, unbreakable. And even if you break them by contact, that relation itself, it still persists. And sure, this is different from a hackerspace family because you can never break down the contact, you can break down the relation. But it's nearly the only proper difference, I say. So in a hackerspace you're also living together, you're sharing big times of this chapter of your life with people that are super different from you. Like your cousins and your sister and your brother they might also be very different from you. They do super different things. You cannot relate to them at all. Like you don't have any language together, you're just, okay, it's my cousin, so sure, we talk to each other and it's also nice. But there's nothing which connects us except this blood bond. So your cousins, which you are not like somehow having a same, like finding any wave, you would have never met them in any other context. And the same is in the hackerspace. There are many people which you would have never met in any other context. You would only be meeting them there because you're so different from each other. And your lifestyle is so far away from the lifestyle from the others. Yeah, so I'm still unsure if it's good to use the word family, but I guess you get the point in this context. So the next characteristic I see is that everyone's welcome. So this again comes with the acceptance thing. So the doors are open, everyone can come and be part of that and everyone has open arms. And care, everyone's caring for each other. Caring for things, caring for each other and caring for the same goats, the same, like you wanna have a world which is looking like this and that and it might be very similar than the imagination of your fellow hacker. And also small things like at camp, you leave your laptop outside overnight by accident. In the morning, it's still there, sure, and it's plugged, right? Someone saw it and just plugs it in. So everyone's just caring for the others and for the environment. And doesn't matter what freak you actually are, right? If you're a freak who's having like a living room at home which looks like that, if you're a freak who's making experience with tomatoes or hanging around in the virtual reality. So again, acceptance, respect and trust. So, but what is the bond? And I'm still not sure, but this is what we're trying to find out. So first of all, I wanna ask you what is a dugout? Because I learned this word just here. I mean, not here right now, but like two years back. And I still really haven't gotten the whole concept. So who wants to tell me what is a dugout? Your personal definition. I wanna collect more than one. Crazy hack, okay. I mean, comparing it with the word hack is easy, right? That I really learned. So, mm-hmm, mm-kay. A whole group by that name. Pardon? A book, oh, okay. Okay, innovative, creative, frugal innovation. All right, so isn't it also about the, like the fact that I'm trying to understand something to, like for example, to fix it? Like innovation, yes, that results there, but even a step below that dugouts trying to, like fix things on a creative way. But first of all, he or she has to like understand first. This is at least where I ended up as well with the understanding, understanding of each other that we already had, like the acceptance and everything, and understanding of any chimonetic system around us, which can also be a bottle, right? Because this is also quite a system, and then I can reuse it. There's in waste upcycling, you find this that you just cut the bottle here, and then you use it to close plastic bags. So you put the plastic bag inside, and then you close it again. So instead of a bottle, you have a plastic bag down here. So this is an example of like I understood the system. I can still turn the hat on it when there's plastic inside in between. So that's a system. So yeah, I think one point is the understanding, or the urge of understanding the world around you, and especially the small things. And also very much because we're all very lazy, at least I see that very often that people are trying to automate everything, and like to be more efficient with things, to be lazy at the end. I mean, not really lazy, because I also think we're kind of persons where you would like never get bored, and you're never really lazy in that sense. But understanding things also makes your life much easier, right? But now we have the problem of others who don't have this kind of understanding. And now I don't have the notes for that part, but so here it's about the idea that the characteristics which I'm trying to define, and which I'm not really good at still, aren't really definable on the characteristics that's itself. It's more defined by others who are placing those characteristics on us. For example, when they see such windows in our screens. I guess everyone who's into coding has had this moment where someone saw your screen, and then it was like, oh, what the fuck are you doing there, right? But I mean, yeah, I'm writing code, or I'm like communicating with systems, or maybe I'm just doing email chatting, right? But still, for the people out there, it's like, oh my God, like when knows what are you doing? And so we are for them the freaks which I set in the abstract, the experts which we prefer often, at least here, I see this very often. And I would even say for some people we are magicians. And I have one example on that where I had this very hard be made, you know when elections, when you have elections in a country, then sometimes people come and observe the elections. And then they write a report to the, like whatever world committee of elections and says, oh, but this election in Africa wasn't democratic, it was all fake and whatever. So we had the problem nearly eight years back or something in Germany that we had some electronic voting systems as well. So we thought it's gonna be fun to make such an election observation there and show outside that's, finally now it's also Germany where you have to observe an election, usually the Germans go to Russia or to Africa and they're like, yeah, we are the Germans. So now we said, okay, that's gonna be fun for the media, they're gonna tell about it, the press gonna print something. And we haven't thought too much about that, we just thought it's fun. And then we went there and it's the same system as here, you have all those small like kindergarten schools, public places where you have those small election cabins and there's five people each place and they all went crazy. They were like, what the hell, what do you want to do? Like, who are you? You are those hackers. Oh, don't open your phone, what are you doing with this laptop, right? And this, it's native voting computers, they don't have any Wi-Fi or air interface, there's no way to get your hands on and to get somehow connected to this machine without getting your hands on, right? But still, the people were super afraid of us because they didn't know what's happening, they didn't know about this machine, the machine was a black box for them, which is already a nice proof that we shouldn't use black boxes for elections if people don't understand that. But they took us as the magicians, we were even having fun later on and thought, hey, next time let's take a van, let's make a big antenna on it, right? And then we just drive in front of the building and then we have some whatever, like the antenna gun and we just place it in front of the window and then people will go crazy. So here, that's a, I think a pretty good example to show what I mean when people are placing those characteristics on us. They see us as a magician, also when we play around with these things. So what is it? I think it's only GPS and GSM stuff. It's like, if you would have a closer look, everyone would be able to understand what it's about, not necessarily to understand what to do, but I mean, most of you also won't be knowing how to make a closet with drawers. In theory, you know, okay, I have to cut wood and I have to place it all together, but actually doing it is also a magic in that way. It's a special knowledge. So you have any examples maybe about this magic thing, what I mean? Like have you had any experience where someone was placing this up on you that people just said, oh my God, what are you doing? And how, I mean, I think we all have this when we like fix someone's printer or something, right? So they give us particular characteristics. So what are these characteristics? So we are this expert, this magician. That's what we already talked about. We are the geek, the nerd, with the glasses, the delivery pizza in our cellar where we don't go out and stay up all night long and like being a person who like, I don't know, has two different socks and stuff like that and analytic thinking, good and math, very precise and super professional once concentrated, a perfectionist, very stiff, all these stereotypes. I'm not sure if anyone would be taking them up yourself. What I see definitely is curiosity. So yeah, yeah. So 15 more minutes and curiosity is we are never bored as well, that I would say. And 15 more minutes, that's perfect because I'm on my last slide where I noted down some more keywords. So first of all, do you have any questions? I mean, I told you to make questions in between already so I don't expect, okay? How do we manage to get the network? That's a good question, over air. So we get network over air and it comes from pretty far away. So we have two local ISPs who are serving us a network and so what we do is we place an antenna on the top of our roof and then we have a line of sight to somewhere like many kilometers away, like another hill and our antenna connects with that antenna and that antenna most probably is also only connected to another antenna and goes down into the valley and then it gets a cover only, I believe. And there's a beautiful part, we had a camp, we had a talk about Hillhacks and that stuff where one of the network guys, we were telling like five or seven minutes about this with beautiful pictures and all that. So if you go on media.ccde, maybe just enter my name spa and then it will be show up in the list and then I think it must be after 15, 20 minutes or something is his part. Any other question? Okay. So I have this list of stuff which I also found pretty important but which I couldn't really work in this thing so far but I would still like to mention it. So filter, filter is something very, very important. We all know this from online. So I said, okay, you can ignore people. Sometimes you also just filter them like you ignore them physically, technically and in these real life spaces, these need space, you need to have an actual filter. If there is like, if there's this full acceptance, if there's this fully welcoming thing, you also need to react after a while as a group if someone doesn't suit the group for whatever reasons. There can be various reasons. Someone can be just an asshole, not like whatever, never doing the dishes and like only putting his legs on the table and not contributing anything at all. So in that case, such a person usually, I mean, maybe he has other qualities. Maybe he's a good DJ and makes the music at night but then it's already a contribution rate. So if someone doesn't contribute at all, he usually also just gets ignored in need space as well. And such people also then just disappear after a while because they get bored. Same with trolls. You all know the problem with trolls. They just go on your nerves on and on and on and on and you can also just ignore them and they also in need space, they'll be disappearing after a while. Or you really tell them, okay, guy, you are just annoying and let's try to get along and after a while maybe we don't. So that's one thing. The other thing is you also need filters because sometimes you're doing some stuff which is just a bit more confidential, right? So you need to have some more trust among the group. So I think that's also the natural filter. Everyone knows this when you invite people at home, let's say you're a teenager, you won't necessarily take everyone into your room but everyone's gonna be in the whatever entry space of your flat. So you create filters actually naturally all the time. Then conflicts. Sure, in these groups you have conflicts, you have to fight and you have to also solve them. There are various approaches to do that. You have the problem of alpha docs, especially over long periods of times that people don't disappear from their whatever position they build. So they build up any position, they build a kingdom around them and they don't disappear from that place ever since. So they got this place because they were like somewhat active and they did this and that and they got this responsibility but after a while they might not doing the things but they are still on the chair. I think we know this maybe from university context at work, it can also be similar. Then the whole communication. So fortunately we have the whole online communication on hand, so you have group communication, you have single communication, you have synchronous communication, you have asynchronous communication, all these things. But still very, very important, meet space, meetings is still the best communication you can have. Then you have the doing things together, especially in such a group, a hacker space can have up to a few hundred members. So they barely do anything altogether, everyone's working on own stuff, on small stuff in groups and sometimes they have a big project that they all work together and this brings the group together very much. I think also the hill hackers can tell their stories about it, especially the ones who were there early and participating very much on the preparations and all that, doing things together also burns you together very much. Then the topic of pseudo-leadership and self-motivation. So everyone has pseudo, pseudo like you have in Linux, you can just be rude on demand and you can just also give it away when you don't want it anymore. So you can act responsible and this is also quite a characteristic from this kind of communities that you can take the lead anytime. There's not any strict hierarchy and you need to be self-motivated to do things. Which results into a decision way or a way of decision making which we have in German very much, we say, Wehrmacht hat recht sounds a bit nicer than the translation, the one who is doing is right. But here again, if someone, whatever wants to change the color of the wall in the hacker space, everyone can talk about it. Oh, I want to have it red, I want to have it yellow, I want to have it green, the proper bike shed pattern. But someone can also just stand up and buy color and start making the wall into a color. So, and then that person just created facts. So in that moment, not every person might be fine with that new color in the hacker space, but the one who is doing it is just right by default. That's like a rule, right? Because if you don't like it, why haven't you done it yourself in your color? So no, you wouldn't have done it. So it would be still like dirty and whatever. So the one who has done it, he's took the championship on it, so he's just right. Which also comes to the point, which is the last one here and I will talk about the open society soon, safe to fail. So you also need to create environments where those environments actually create, like naturally by themselves as well, where you are safe to fail. So I'm a noob in that hacker space, I get this discussion about this wall painting. So just go and buy a color and everyone hates me afterwards, right? Everyone says, oh, but that was just a joke and we don't even meant that serious and what the fuck are you doing now? So no problem, you can still repaint it and whatever color everyone likes and you can make a democratic vote on the color and get rid of your bike shed pattern. So it's always, actually, there's barely anything where you're not safe to fail. You can fail in everything and you will be still alive. Everything will be still working around you. Yeah, and then the whole open society, which is like a keyword in this world, that you are having this open knowledge, open information, open source, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you can go on, okay. So since you were talking about democratic practices in hacker spaces and how communities, so what I really like is how everything is done where everything is community-driven. The thing I'm concerned about is it can be, and correct me if I'm wrong, it can be sometimes elitist and it can exclude a lot of people. So what I'm interested in knowing from you is, are there hacker communities who believe in these kinds of principles? Are they taking these to democratic institutions? As in, are they fighting elections to actually form a government where they can apply these principles in a much broader context? I don't understand the question, but also in like, acoustically, not fully. So you are just saying. What I'm trying to ask you is, are there hacker space, people from these hacker spaces, are they going in, trying to go into democratic institutions, trying to apply these principles in broader contexts, like at either at a district level or a city level or whatever country level. Maybe a pirate party kind of example is an example. Yeah, yeah. So a pirate party would be the lively example, which is close to dialogue, but still they tried, and they are still trying European-wide. You still have them very alive in Germany. It was an experiment that is about to fail, but the pirate parties are having this whole structure of the so-called liquid democracy. So this is coming a bit, bringing together a lot of these different approaches. So democracy, what we have, or what we call democracy now in our world, is you elect or you vote for a representative, and that representative is making decisions for you. So this is our system. And the idea of liquid democracy is that you vote, always stays with you, and you can give it liquidly to a person. So that means I, for example, don't have any kids, so I can say, okay, I give all the stuff which is related to kids, I give it to my brother, because he has kids, and he'll be making a good decision, because it's my brother, trust him. Or, and my brother, on the other hand, I might be saying, oh, but all that stupid internet shit, I cannot even follow that. I give it all to my sister, she's gonna make a good decision. So now I have my vote and the vote of my brother in this stupid internet shit. Now something's happening where I don't really, like I'm not able to follow myself anymore. So a decision is ongoing, and I say, well, what the fuck, I really don't know what is right and what is wrong and what I should vote. So now I can also go and put my vote and the vote of my brother, like my vote and all the votes I'm carrying and onto another person again. So I say, okay, this friend of mine, he's like totally into it and I totally trust him to make a good decision, so I give it to him. So the idea of liquid democracy is that you still have representatives of discussing stuff with each other, making decisions, because sure, not everyone can decide everything. That's not possible. We all know that. So still you have representatives discussing and deciding and ideally in consensus, but at the end you can still like make a yes or no. And, but these representatives are, yeah, somewhat liquid. So I can also, when there's something like there's a kindergarten should be built next to my house. I don't wanna have a kindergarten next to my house because it's loud. So in that particular decision, I can also take back the vote which I gave to my brother and say, okay, in that particular case, I wanna vote myself because I am against this kindergarten and you are not. So you're very liquid with that. The problem with this system is the implementation. Sure. So we tried with software very hard and there are many, I think three big liquid democracy systems out there and they're in testing in various smaller groups, especially the private parties tried it very much, but yeah, the implementation is the big problem. Otherwise, the only thing how we, I would say rather interrupt democratic processes is more something like these voting computer action that I was telling about. So in that case, there was a legal case against voting computers and we were campaigning a bit to give it a more attention. So having this stupid idea of having this voting observation actually resulted quite well because we had quite some findings, like including the computers were standing half an hour in front of the door with no one watching them and stuff like this. Then some people might have heard about the fingerprint we published of our minister of the interior in 2007 or 2008 which also resulted in two that there is no fingerprints in our ID, which they planned to. So it's more like these kinds of actions because going the long democratic way in the voting computer debate, it was actually done. It was a proper legal case and it took five years till the constitutional court was like deleting the existence of any voting computers in Germany. And in that case, with the fingerprint at all, I mean, they just deleted the fingerprint from the ID plan which was supposed to come out next year, the actual finished ID and they sure they never said that was because of us but it was like very close to each other and it was very clear that it was because of us. And there again, you just, I mean, just you need to get the fingerprint of your minister of the interior and then you publish it. So that's not really the usual process of a democratic decision-making. All right, any other question? Good, because we are now just by 60 minutes so I would stop now.