 So, tell us a little bit about your growing up. Where did you come from? Well, I came out of the womb with my mother. As ever, I was a good pushy because my parents came from Scotland. My father died first because my father worked for shallow oil and so my eldest brother was 15 years older than me. I was born in Los Angeles, but they came back to eventually in the Depression. And then I came down from Scotland to Coventry because my father was offered a job. And my mother was pregnant, making my life three months early. And it was in 1936, the year that it was invaded by the Roar. I took over the Rhineland, and over the Eighth Duke Windsor Arcticated. So, quite a metaphor really. But he didn't get a job, so he went back to Scotland. And then, a couple of years later, he came back to the Works Manager at a factory in Coventry. And we were there to ask for international service at that school. I mean, it wasn't very clever at school, I'm afraid. Because any exam was something like that. So, rather possibly made up for later, but not at school. Well, you were a little boy during World War II. Tell us a little bit about that time for you. Well, of course, the actual time, of course, obviously, in 1939 and the Second World War started. And we lived in Coventry in 1940, Coventry in November, which was one of the first cities in Britain apart from London to be heavily bombed. And something like about 800 people died, unfortunately. There were many casualties. I don't remember much about it. My parents, looking back, my parents were very kindly sort of sheltered, I suppose. But I do remember after, when I was about four, after the bombing made, there was no water or electricity. And the police and emergency services came to see my mother. And we had a cold wane in the kitchen. And she was able to boil water and people queued up through the house. Remember, people doing that. But really, I was rather protected. I don't remember being affected by the war. Although I suppose all women, because it was very much sort of women, where they looked after the house in those days, I suppose that they must have had enormous problems feeding them, because of the versioning and that sort of thing. Absolutely. I should think so. But you began work at an early age as a retailer selling books in a stationery shop, magazines. You even worked at a London library. Tell us about your early days in your professional world. Well, as I said, I didn't have any qualification when I left school at 16. And so much gave my father's will. I went to work for a firm. This is the publicity plant, W.H. Smith. And I worked for the man-and-boy for 36 years. But I started delivering newspapers. And then gradually I moved to the other departments and was shot in the store in Coventry. And it was a slight incident which I'm only sure no one here will remember. Because they were actually closed about 1955, I often have to say. But both Smiths and Moons have lending libraries. And people could pay a yearly subscription. And the really superior people paid six guineas, six pounds, six shillings. And they could choose any book they liked. And obviously they had a preference for the latest title. And then there was the A for who paid three pounds. And then the Muckers who paid. The B tickets. And the theory was that people would walk, the libraries were always at the back of the store. And the theory was that people would walk through and they would see a book or a station of newspapers or whatever that they liked. And they would buy it. Well, in fact it was rubbish. People just walked in and chose the book. By about the mid fifties, in its real life, they weren't really attracting customers. So they would choose the spacemen more profitably. But my father went to see the manager and said, is there anything my son can study? And the upset was that I did books of his exams, which was literature and playing practice, which actually the university standard eventually. And so I passed. But I started in Smith's glorious son, working Monday to Saturday, sometimes Sunday, Thursday afternoon off, and I got paid one pound, twenty-five pence of cash. Wow. How did you survive? Well, I didn't. My father insisted. I gave a mother a pound on Friday, and by Tuesday she would slip me five shillings cash. I didn't have any. But it actually had a benefit in that when I did my national service, that all the boys in the billet smoked. I never earned enough money to buy cigarettes, so I didn't really smoke. So it wasn't a problem. Especially in the early days of the national service, you would go up on a Thursday, stand in front of the officer and salute him, stand in feet and say you're another mother, 272, the 671, and sir. And he would give you whatever money it was. But of course, a lot of the guys, they bought the best cigarettes on Thursday and Friday, and then it gradually descended, and I don't know if anyone here remembers, but there used to be cigarettes called woodbinds, and they were actually sold, they sold them in 2010 and five in a packet. Some of the guys by Tuesday were managing to get five packets, so it was hard to remember. So you know, it was an advantage that I didn't actually earn very much money. I actually went up, I think when I was 17, I went up to 30 shillings a week for one pound of 30 a day, but it actually was worse off because I had to pay national insurance then, when you were 17. So I actually got less money than I did when I was 16. Wow. Wow. Please give us some perspective. What would that equate roughly today in today's currency? What would you afford with that money? I haven't really had any idea of how much it equates. I'm sure there's probably someone here today that would be able to say, but I mean, when you did your national service, the last six months of the two years, you actually got regular pay. And I was getting, I was a senior air craftsman acting corporal. And people had something to call me, sir. Wow. And they, they, and I got six pounds a week and my key, and I went back to Smiths for about five pounds, ten shillings a week, and I had to give my mother four pounds and my father said, you must give your mother money. But it did, I would say that the company promoted me and I was able to advance. I've got to actually give them credit. And they were great. I have comments now about them, but I have to be very careful because I get a pension from them. And I don't want to accept anybody. But in those days, the Smith family were very dominant and, you know, the, the honorable mayor of Smith would come and visit them, that lady Helen Schmidt and so forth. And it, I know paternalism is often criticised nowadays, but a lot of us worked for the company for not very large wages because we enjoy the atmosphere, we enjoy working with the company. They had a very good welfare system. They had a convalescent home. And I know that it's called paternalism, but a slight hobby for us at mine is I hate the initial HR. It's not human relations with people. And I think that today people should be misferred. I think HR departments is totally wrong. And it's good that it's a hobby course at mine, so there you are. Well, okay. But your job took you to Belgium. Yeah. So tell us about going to Belgium and what happened to you there. Well, I went. By this time I was working in Birmingham, and I had my borsos exam. And in those days, we had a store in Paris and in Brussels and Amsterdam. Before the Second World War, there was one in Berlin, but Mr Hitler didn't like that. And so that was clear to him. Anyway, the gentleman who was in, it was thought that only British people actually buy books in English. So the book buyer in Belgium and France was always British in those days. And the book buyer, his wife had a baby, and the baby unfortunately died. And she believed that if she'd been in the bay, they would have lived. And so as a welfare thing, the company brought them back and they sent somebody. We had a customer called Countess Nippon who was the first woman to fly solo to the Belgian Congo. You know that she was rather gently in a refugee or a Belgian refugee with the Smith family in the First World War. And she rang up the chairman, the honoured David Smith, and said she didn't think this gentleman was really very good. So he was brought back to oblivion and I was asked to go for three weeks while I looked for someone better. And he said, and then I was asked to stay till Christmas. And then in January I was asked, well, the first week I went to something in the Grand Place and it was very crowded. And I filmed the gentleman leaning up against the front of me. I was standing there and he was pressing to my back or to my front. So anyway, we had a coffee a little later and we ended up being together 19 years or so. Because at the time I should say that I wasn't really quite sure of my sexuality. I like women, but I wasn't sure I actually wanted to go to bed with them. And indeed in Britain I had a girlfriend, Janet. She went on to marry somebody else and she had seven children. But anyway, Alexander and I got together. He was about seven years older than me and looking back on it he was very clever because he was very into being fisted. And me, I didn't know fisting even existed. In fact, when we biked up to Amsterdam one weekend and because we both worked shifts in our respective jobs it was difficult to actually get the weekend together. But we went up and down and we went to some, I think it was called the anchor. And in those days it really was a clean pit. And anyway, we went through our things and the rooms were about five people to five beds. And I don't think there was much furniture where you could put anything. But anyway, we went out on a night out in Amsterdam our big night out and we came back and there was this guy at the top of the stairs sobbing his heart out. And I went up to him and I said oh dear, what's wrong? And I felt it and I said I said you're all wet. Oh I said you must get out of those clothes. You're captured in the cold. Well of course he's been in some shadow of his seat. And all the time. And Aleksand leaning against the wall hysterical with laughter. Because I didn't know that people did that stuff. But he was very, very good because he led me gently into the letter of the fetish scene with love and it wasn't eternal. And so therefore I thank his memory and say thank you for the privilege of having known him and being with him for so long. Let's take a step back a little bit. It was glossed over a moment ago. During your time in the National Service you experienced the early days of Gave London. Tell us a bit about that. Ah well, of course we didn't get much money in National Service. And so sometimes you would get a pass. I was actually stationed near Dover. And in those days Dover was called the garrison town. And it was large, there were two army camps. There was a navy and there was a Royal Air Force. The Royal Air Force in those days we had underground, I don't know if we still have. In those days we had underground radar stations all around the coast. And the camp I was on. I was a cook in the Royal Air Force but only for officers. And so on a Friday the trains to London, say a Friday afternoon you get a 48 hour pass. Friday afternoon the trains to London would be packed with day and evening army and Air Force between the ages of 18 and 20. Because you could go to London and you could stay at the Union Chapter which still exists as I was there. Union Chapter for tensionings at night including breakfast. Well, and then you would perhaps the weather was quite nice and you could go to Speaker's Corner in High Park. Usually there were a number of gentlemen. Of course you'd be in uniform that was part of the attraction and sometimes very nice gentlemen would speak to you and he would say hello and then they might say would you like to have a coffee and then they might take a dinner and then they might say would you like to stay the night but there were also several pumps. I don't remember them all now but there were certain pumps for example with one near Night's Bridge bound which was where the army went and a lot of the guards soldiers went and of course we didn't find anything I'm afraid some people used to get arrested in High Park during that time but doing something they shouldn't do. Because of course it was all illegal in those days at 17th sex between same sexes totally illegal coming back to your Belgian days and to Alexander you too spent a lot of time in Amsterdam please tell us about the gay scene you experienced in Amsterdam at that time. Well I've got to be very honest we didn't because the work we both did Alexander was actually in the police force and how we solved it we found a lot of flackers that were being constructed in the Baselikian bustles and had to flat on each floor and so Alexander took one flat to manage it I can't say we went often to Amsterdam but of course it was it at the time was much more involved or much more as an overall gay scene not necessarily leather and fetish and I can be correct but there was quite a strong gay association the name of which I've escaped from at the moment I think it was called something like COC I'm not sure but they were actually organised and developed sometimes and so it was and I suppose to some extent the civilisation of the Netherlands and how the people Dutch people at all they were perhaps leading in that they were much more tolerant find it wasn't excessive much more tolerant in other places when I went to Belgium it was extremely Catholic and we weren't allowed to sell magazines like Penthouse or Playboy when they were banned my boss said if you and I get a subscription to it from New York then I can get it to my friends and we actually had a visit from the police and one time I don't know what it was that we were selling and we got a phone call from an MPP saying the police are here, they raided us and we went to wherever the section was and took all the stuff off and pretended we were rearranging the fixtures so when the police came my boss said afterwards where did you put it and I sent them in the drawers in your office you have seen an extraordinary evolution the gay scene, the king scene and BDSM scenes please tell us how you've seen those evolve over the years I think that I mean obviously to a certain extent part of the leather scene is concerned the big thing was I mean many of the original of my leather tops were originally by-products because it was a way of wearing leather which wouldn't attract untoward criticism or marks I'm not saying and I mean even in the 80s there were people who members of the then Manchester Superchain who were unhappy about actually walking in the streets of Manchester in leather so they would sometimes bring a bag or something with some of their leather items I think it took the question that slowly certainly large parts of the western Europe and the United States we've got to remember that so much of the world is whether they're behind or whether they're wrong or right I'm not going to get into it but there are so many countries that where people do have enormous problems on some aspect Gerald will refer to that but slowly it has sort of evolved that people the example the evolution of pride we get I remember when the first one too started in Manchester and it was a trustful table straight more or less but things like pride did begin to broaden people people sort of said oh but of course for us in Britain the United Kingdom 1967 and the legalisation of consenting said that meant sort of actually brought it out into the open that the world men who liked men and I think that was a real kind of breakthrough when that happened but it took a long time I mean the morphine from the pool which recommended that was 10 years earlier so these things it takes time I would say the question if you live long enough now what are your thoughts about the contemporary gay lesbian media sound king scenes oh I mean now I would have said gay we have the prefix of certain countries and certain I mean you know there are parts of the United States where gay people have a lot of problems but it's a great thing for me it took me quite a long time to actually come out and in a sense that it was an accident because the then man's super chain was hosted an ECMC European Group meeting in 1997 and I wasn't in well not a committee or anything like that but I helped welcome people at railway stations and unbeknownst to me I was being filmed by BBC and it appeared on television and I went home and there were some messages and one of them was from a friend of mine Paul Biorio and she said just seeing you on the television oh and I was in full leather in the cap and how the situation has evolved I was the token gay member of Rotary we actually had a gay accident in where I live but we had a member who was a senior police officer in a great match and I, to be quite honest I thought it was a right wing hermaphobic bastard wow but when this happened I went to the meeting and he came up to me and said he and I saw the television and I thought and he said just let me know if you have any problems let me know and I was astounded you know the person I had summoned as really being hermaphobic and I thought the world is evolving and therefore things will get better it's by no means over there are still many, many people who unfortunately cannot come to terms everybody is right with you to their own view but it has to be expressed in some right way a moment ago you mentioned the Manchester Superchain Motor Sports Club please tell us a bit about that and that started about 1983 there was a group met in a pub in Deansgate and sort of evolved and it was very, very flourishing at the time by sort of 1990 there was a bar nearby called the Homeo and we were able to use the subtle and it was rather discreet lighting and and I mean someone could actually touch you but we know what you did I was a bit less looking at the time but it was very good unfortunately in the late 90s there were some problems and so we had a rocky time and then about four years ago the then president died very suddenly and I was asked if I would be unfortunately a lot of the records and archives were lost from about 2000 to 2000 and so I said yes I would become president but we had to do things we had to either expand or close and then I knew Saxon a little bit and we got together and we chatted and we felt that we could I mean look at the full name of Manchester Superchain Manchester Superchain went to sports club which on all sorts of documents and things well never mind Facebook or Twitter or Instagram it's a mouthful so we came up with the idea of Manchester Leatherman and we had fallen behind the times and we weren't on Facebook we weren't on Twitter so we needed to modernise which is quite a lot of clubs do need to take a grip of and be aware of how people communicate today been a big learning curve I remember Danny Alkenberg what future did you see from Manchester? wow is that tempting fate I would like to think that I mean the biggest thing that I've got to say about Leatherman is that I think without exception every member that I have met has qualities that I can admire and I would like to think that I mean Manchester Leatherman has members not just in Manchester all the north west but in all parts of the country and indeed on several boards and I would like to think that we may have to recognise the dangers of perhaps being too big I hope that we would continue to have members who enjoy being together who were friendly who realised that we all have problems we all have something which at the bottom of our heart we perhaps don't want to talk about or we could I mean one of the wonderful things that happened is a group called Rowland and the Board of Leathermans which is helping hope tries to help people who have feel the pressure of modern day life and then there is of course looking which enables very new new people who think what is this leather thing what is this all about so I would like I do hope that we continue to flourish so many clubs have come and gone but I hope they will go on because there are so many great people one of those who have been said about clubs in the States in Europe I mean I have visited quite a few places and the world has been lovely and sometimes you can even have sex as well Well as a gentleman of a tender age how do you see the ageing in the Leatherman community Well I think the ageing in Leatherman and fetish in the community really depends on the individual a lot of people who get older such as my age or even getting to my age they sort of retreat there is no reason why you can't you don't have to go out every night or every week but you can maintain a link and so therefore I think there is a bit of a a little bit of a thing that the ageing world as a whole is something that sort of ends when you're 35 or 40 but it doesn't and I think it does depend on the individual You have been part of this community long enough to have seen AIDS come and go and the devastation that that created and then whatever followed it tell us a little bit about how you saw that unfold in the community Well until about 10 years ago I used to bike quite a lot and it was part of my work I came back after Alexandre I worked in Belgium and France for about 19 years and Alexandre was killed in the car crash and for various reasons I had to decide the longest time I spent was my time in Belgium and this is the coded reference my time in Belgium was seven super years and I had my arm twisted to go to France not because I wanted to go to France but because the boss in France that I was getting particular to had to involve private life which included three lady friends and his wife plus the business didn't make any money so it's rare why I didn't submit to the book anyway I eventually became the patron and then after Alexandre died for various reasons I came back to Britain and I was manager of the store in London for a couple of years and then I was asked to go to Cambridge not because we'd been known by grade but the business where it was owned at the time it was 400 years of selling books on that site not the same people but and so I was asked to go and give them a little bit of money to promote this thing so I invited the Duke of Edinburgh and there's a photograph somewhere of he and I together but we didn't go in the dark room and but in those days there was a group called the Istanbul Obankers and we had a party or a weekend or something and there were these two guys there from London and a few weeks later I was in London which was about 1981 I was in London and I bumped into one of them and I said oh hello, how are you how is whatever the guy's name was his partner and he said he's dead I believed that I said partner and he was the first person that I had heard about had died of AIDS because of course it was so bad with them there was no way and then and I think from the point of view of the game world, game fetish world AIDS was a trap not only a tragedy for the people that died and the people that cared for them but it was a tragedy because it was a setback and there were a lot of people who felt that you know it was judgement on gay people or and it was a bit of a setback and I know that it's not that I'm a great royal admirer but I mean I think it was about 88 or 89 Princess Diana went to one of the London hospitals and people were amazed she actually touched somebody who had AIDS and I mean I remember when I was a child when I worked in Smith's we only had a ladies toilet the manager and I were the only male staff we were given six minutes a week to go down to the toilets in very far as green in case we hadn't spent many years in case we hadn't spent four and and on the toilets in those days they used to be this enormous sign beware of syphilis and people thought you could catch syphilis by sitting on the toilet or something or people were like that with AIDS and the tragedy was two ways one was people were disowned by their families and the other one was I mean undertakers were refusing to actually you know bury or only do it in certain literally put them in people in a body bag and I used to I visited about by 83 or so I was in Manchester and I heard about well one of the Manchester Superchain members and he lived in Rochester and I heard that he was in the hospice in Rochester and I went to see him and he was at the time he was very old but he was fully complimented and I the nurse said I was the first person to visit him in the seven weeks that he had been there at the time and his family didn't want to know and I went back and the the second time he knew me and then the third time he was unconscious well he certainly wasn't conscious and I just stood there and held his hand and said a prayer but it really you know the fact that he had been disowned you know and a group two or three of us actually arranged a funeral because no one else wanted to know so it was a very traumatic time and a lot of people who were in there but in early careers were cut short and I know that some people have said oh well they were promiscuous and they were asking for it but there's not really a question not really as an assigned a friend of mine who died who died about six months ago he was actually pathologist in Greater Manchester and he claimed I mean I have no idea whether it's true or not but he claimed that he had done a pathology thing in France a man in 1957 who have symptoms veils you know whether I have no idea I mean the sentence here saying and the poor gentleman but there we are but no it was very traumatic but it's wonderful that in a sense a lot of people in United States in Europe by the later 80s we began to say we need to do something something has to be done and hopefully there will be a cure I hope there will be a cure before I die you can hope well unfortunately I didn't succumb to AIDS but I hope that I will live to see you see you cure one issue that we all face in the community is the inclusion of new people coming into the scene what advice have you for a new person entering the letter scene I think the inclusion of new people very much depends upon the other people who was around one of the things I personally think I'm sure there's a lot of people to say it's rubbish but I really am actually quite shy at times we know but I don't I mean I know some people don't want to be pressed there's a kind of balance but it does grieve me in many ways if someone has sort of perhaps comes to an event it could never be leather or fetish it could be anything and they're sort of standing there and the other one the other danger of course is in all kinds of groups whether they're gay or not you can sometimes get little gangs and they don't understand and a number of times over the years where I've heard someone say well I went but nobody spoke to me and I went and I left no one said how are you, or good morning or whatever so I think it does depend I mean because some people half of this most of us aren't quite served so I mean you're not wanting someone to be in the bellow you know and have them there is that other end isn't there where where you think somebody is so organizing that you think oh god I wish they'd piss off what's the biggest misconception about you that I'm shy I really am I mean I'm probably going to die to Gress but I have two claims to fail one is I was kissed by General de Gaulle so I were about 10,000 other people studying and the other one is I carried Margaret Thatcher's handbag wow de Gaulle's and no it was because when she ended being Prime Minister she wrote two volumes of memoirs but the first one was called A Downing Street Year and I opened Morestone in Manchester we also did a book shop called Sheridan Hughes which we had and so we had her sign in the evening we had a dinner and then she sort of signed more so that was how I carried her handbag but in actual fact we had quite a lot of signing sessions of various authors and people and so forth and I used to get quite worried every time I used to get worried before I mean one of the greatest things of this weekend for me is that Tony is the boss and last year I was very nervous about you know I was present and I was nervous and I I have to take a deep breath and the signing session before the act just started in thought of actually dealing with large members of the public and particularly authors I would really take a deep breath and think well the only thing to do is to go forth and do something but I do get or have got concerns you know before but I do I think the reverse is to try and be outgoing thank you for the amazing channel thank you for inviting me