 And I want to go on to our second speaker, who is Dawood Yassim. And I have a little information about him. He spent five summers teaching Arabic language at the Zaytuna Summer Arabic Intensive. Dawood has worked with colleagues to establish learning outside of the classroom program at Zaytuna College, which includes service learning trips and a revival of traditional athletics found in swimming, archery and horseback riding. That sounds like a lot of fun. Okay. Dawood, you're on. Thank you, Ruth. I begin with the name of Almighty God, the compassionate, the giver of compassion, provider of compassion. Thank you all for having me. As mentioned, I'm in Berkeley at the top of the hill. If you've ever been to what was the former Lutheran Divinity School or Lutheran Theological Seminary. Our campus is located now. We also have a campus down next to the GTU, the Geological, sorry, the Graduate Theological Union in, down in Berkeley. So coming to you, not from, I was amazed, our guest, she's here from India and just at the top of the hill in Berkeley. So, yes, as mentioned, I am at Zaytuna College. I'm a student life in the Center for Ethical Living and Learning. I've taught Arabic here for some time in our summer Arabic program for five years. The topic here, faith and social justice and how our congregations, you know, kind of bridge these gaps between different political and social justice views. I want to give a bit of a little bit of kind of perspective, as we'll say. I think when we are going to talk about kind of how our congregate congregation helps to bridge this. I first and foremost think that we have to talk about okay well bridging it would mean that there's some sort of, you know, bifurcation that's occurring. There's differences of opinion and perhaps that leads to argumentation and there's argument, the argumentation would perhaps be what needs to be bridged. So I want to talk about this from this concept of argumentation and how what a congregation address that issue and how, you know, we understand it. When you're looking at Islam, you're dealing probably with what I would like to call principles here. So if you talk about the principle of argument, we have to talk about the response of the principle to argument. And if we're talking about principles, then we also have to talk about it from the perspective of law. Islam is at times I like to call it our community we've become hyper legalized so to speak and I, and I use that term because kind of every aspect of it is returned back to to law. So if we're talking about that we're talking about law, let's talk about then something which we call here which is called. Let's see if I can get to my next slide. It's interesting. Okay, so we're here now and something what we call us all fit. And fit here is actually law or so meaning roots is really the word here. So it's really the, the, the, the root of, of, of the law. Within that there are five aspects really four and a fifth is, is, is only considered by one of the legal schools here but how do we understand law in Islam. We understand the conversation is based on first and foremost the Quran, and these are in hierarchical order. Okay, so what does the Quran say about a certain topic. And then, I think I need to, I just want to break for a minute because my notes are, are you able to still see this slide. Are you all able to still see the slide presentation. Yes. But it's, you can see it, it's in a different format now. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So that's why it's taken over the. It's interesting because it keeps. Sorry. Here I think, are you okay if we keep it like that. Just for a moment I want to keep it like that so let's talk about this is still a thick for a moment so really what is it is, it's the sources of Islamic law. Okay, so it's, it's the discipline. It's dedicated to being clarity of relationships to substantive substantive rulings in this field. And really it's talking about the nature of law relationship to reason ethics, and within those are these areas I'm talking about here the first is the Quran. Okay. The second is what's called the sunnah. And this is based on the practice of the Prophet Muhammad's trends. Transmission through his sayings actions and tacit approval tacit approval meaning if he remained silent on an issue and didn't. It didn't speak about it that was called that's how it's. It is described as tacit approval. The next you'll find is called it's my and it's my and Arabic comes from Jamaica, which means to get it's a collection so here this is the consensus of scholars so within a time. All scholars would need to agree upon this opinion, and then we have someone to call the gas or analogical deductions from these three. There are other sources as well but these are the main four and as I said there's a fifth, which is recognized, which is called and this is something here, which is, it's pretty much knowledge of a given society. So, why is this important to talk about, you know, social justice issues and issues of issues of, you know, politics and other things such as this. The reason why I wanted to mention this is because when you begin to talk about what's happening in the communities. Many of the Muslim communities are have a have a have a what an Imam which would be kind of the equivalent to the, the leader of the community so to speak. And in a lot of mosques, you find that those leaders are foreign born and trained. And many of the misogyny many of I'm sorry mosques are, you know, will have a congregation that is that is immigrant based. I say that because many then of the rulings that we're talking about with regard to issues of social justice or issues of politics are returned back to scholars who don't live in the US and are making rulings based on these categories and then these kind of work their way into the community. Okay, so that's why I wanted to kind of just give us a little background of, you know, how we might find, you know, of the conversation, moving inside of inside of the communities. Okay. Now, what you do have happening as of late, for example, myself. I'm a convert to the religion, but I spent almost 10 years living in the Middle East studying Islamic law, Arabic, and and and and spirituality amongst amongst other things. So you have now indigenous community members who are who are going abroad learning Islam coming back and then assuming positions of leadership within the community where that wasn't the case in the past. And so you have, you know, whatever type of one thing I think is very important about what I said as well, with regard to those types of rulings that are being issued here is that the political tension that's existed between, you know, American reform policy and Muslim countries historically has also influenced this scholarly class as well too. And again, now, whether that is religious or it's political that's an entirely different conversation. So if we look at this idea of, you know, how does our congregation deal with these. You know, to two sides of a position. Let's move to that, for example, so in the Quran. How does your congregation bridge the difference. Okay, so someone would ask them. Okay, so what does the Quran have to say about it. Okay. So here, this is a verse chapter 16 verse 125, a prophet call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching argue with them in the most courteous way for your Lord knows best who is straight from from his way and who is rightly guided believers argue only in the best way with the people of the book. This is referring to those of Abrahamic faiths. And not that it excludes others but this is the context in which this verse is revealed in, except for those who act unjustly meaning that you would, you would respond to them. Not in a way that is not in the best way but if they are kind of aggressing towards you it may require a different response. Say to that we believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. Our God and your God are the same, and we are devoted to him, and then another verse of the Quran and say, Our God's better this is a rhetorical question that has been asked here. They raise not the objection safety argument neighbor their contentious folks so the idea that that, you know, if this is on a level of religion. The idea that politics which is seen kind of below one's obligation to to to to religion within side of the communities. If this is how one is supposed to to to to to engage on this level, then obviously the same type of courtesies would be, you know, enacted within within a community amongst co-religionist and other people as well too. And I say that because right now you're seeing some shifts that are occurring with inside of the Muslim community you talked about. Gaurav you spoke about the Hindus being blue, or perhaps the bluest of all Muslims are quite blue as well. I think you know up until this election about 26% of Muslims and it was 17 and it went 2026 and now it's up to 35 are actually Republican. In fact, you had 83% and then 74% and now at about 65% that are that are Democrat. Now, the issue that I think happens with points of contention within a progressive position of the left is that you have contentious social positions that seem that it's legal legal teaching so so for example or religious teaching so abortion for example would be something so you might have a Muslim who is Democratic, leaning, but yet is going to oppose abortion. Because now this is something that is that is not permitted within within Islam there are there are exceptions to it when there is permissibility in it but but as a blanket kind of a position Islam does not condone abortion so again this is now something that you would find and now I brought it back to religion because you know the idea is that even if you disagree on this point, this is the basis this is the principle and what you need to return to because this is what God is legislating to you through the So many of the the the types of disputation or the disc is really a reminding of people of what are the principles the foundational principles that we stand on as a community, and I think that for the most part people have been you know, good about about that now one of the things that I'll say that I think really, you know, kind of this affiliation we're talking about Democrat and Republican, I don't see that type of kind of political loyalty kind of over over eclipsing one's status and position and affiliation within religion. And the reason why I say that is Muslims are very weird 2000 you talked about, you know, about 20 years ago. 2000 there was a big was actually called the push for bush, and it was a block vote of Muslims in Florida that a lot say had the opinion, you know, in other channels that carried bush, you know, over gore in in in in Florida and I say that because again some of these social the social conservative positions that that that that traditionally Republicans have with something that that that is a learning to to to most of you know, however, you saw then Muslims began to see what is what does that actually look like. So voting is one thing. Now dealing with the policies and dealing with the aftermath of that of this fiasco that caused the type of refugee status that we're seeing, you know, from that first war and then also the war after that. And I don't think it's so much of a left to right discussion because even during the Obama administration and many of us know I'm African American so it's not that I'm kind of disparaging on on on on on President Obama on anything regarding race or anything such as this but policies that were absolutely detrimental to the Muslim community as well in terms of the continuation of war the tops types of bombing campaigns that still continued. Assassinations other things such as this that were happening will leave that discussion for another time, but I just want to say that when Muslims look at that they're not looking to stand behind the party with loyalty saying that yeah that's okay we can kind of go through these things because they contradict our position in our in our in our with us standing in front of God ultimately. So, I'm just going to go through two or two more things here. So we talked about the court on the next thing the sunna actions of the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him. And this is where, you know, also with the former speaker or he was just saying that, you know, with inside of the community you might not find that people kind of add each other's throat or other things such as that because again, you're constantly being reminded of the of the principles and again so here are some principles here right no people go astray after being guided, except that they indulge in arguments and again this type of, you know, divisiveness that we've that we're realizing now, don't really see that it is happening to some degree and I think it's more so shock that people are shocked that Muslims could be supporting Trump, or that Muslims could be, and I think that's more of what the response is, rather than this kind of, you know, rooted deep historical division that that that has played out here. So I'm going to said here peace and blessings be upon him I guarantee a house and the outskirts of paradise for one who abandons arguments, even if he is right. So here it's not about this position of whose right and dominating, you know, asserting some sort of power. The idea is that we want to have amicable relationships with everyone and I think this is something right now that so many of us can can can take heed to right, kind of in the time that we're in in the time that we're in right now. And again, just, you know, we're kind of short on time and actually I was, I actually had planned to be out at six, I have to meet my daughter at Trader Joe's, but anyway just talking about this idea of some, you know, social justice and political views here, you know, really I think that when we talk about, you know, this idea of social justice or political views that we talked about a kind of vertical access that for the most part Muslims are going to agree on that vertical access. But it's really when we begin to talk about the horizontal access when we're talking about, you know, rights of others or the subjects that, you know, a previous speaker was was talking about, you know, this is something that I think that the discourse for the most part has been tolerable, we'll say, because again we have this idea that these these are worldly affairs, and not to dismiss this in some sort of, you know, we only live for the next world which is true but we actually have to live in this world too is that Muslims living in these lands here is that Islamic law will say something but we're also bound by the laws of that land now, whether I accept those laws or not, meaning, you know, I mean that one has to accept them obviously as the laws of the land and what I mean by that is whether I personally accept that the position that those laws are from marijuana for example would be another one right legalization of marijuana. You know, this is something that's prohibited within within Islam. So, again, I have to respect it because it's the it's the law of the land in which I live in, but, but personally I don't have to accept that. This is a place where there's kind of this, you know, understanding that yes we can discuss these we can disagree, we can be opposed to each other, but at the end of the day, there's a higher reality that all of us have to have to engage in, and I think that's the discourse quite civil within our community. And so that's what I wanted to share. You know, and again, as I said, I was sorry that we're short on time and kind of, you know, rush through this a little bit but then I'll just, you know, leave you with this for for a few questions that we can take but I just say to you, you know, Okay, if if there are questions for him and Yaseem raise your hands. We get to that. Yeah, can you. Yeah. There we go. Okay Christopher has a question. Christopher. You're muted. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, appreciate the talk having been a person who has been on the UC Berkeley campus over the last about three or four years. Yeah, I have kind of interesting perspective on this and it's interesting the movement toward more toward the Republican side and the most I was not aware that it was, it happened that much. I'm wondering if a lot of that has to do with the fact that Muslims are reacting to a kind of increasingly militant secularism that we're seeing from the Democratic side. I saw this very directly at Berkeley a couple of years ago, when there was a Christian member of the student Senate there, who really came under very heavy attack, simply for expression, expressing her biblical convictions about marriage between a man and God creating us male and female. So, and we have some Muslims actually were we were kind of supporting this lady there. We have some Muslims kind of join us to which was neat to see I wonder how you know, whether we'll see more of that and I kind of hope that we will because I think the threat of secularism is is a serious threat to people from the standpoint of religious freedom affect Muslims as well as Christians and others. Yeah, Christopher, thank you that's a that's a great point. And I do think that there is absolute truth in that. Whether, you know, I think what happens is that there is kind of a, there's a rational kind of discourse that's taking place that's saying that, you know, look, if we keep pushing this thing forward and forward and forward and relegating religion to a public space, you know, is this the party that we want to have affiliation with, where one can have no conviction that's an opposition to any of these of these positions. And then they intrude upon, you know, one's a personal space as well, too. You know, I have a friend who who is a faculty member. Well, he is he is he is what his wife is finishing up her PhD at at UC at UC Berkeley as well too and she's just talking about this. It's almost like how difficult it is actually use the restroom now in a way that just feels comfortable to her. But if you bring that up now, it's like you're, you know, you need to be, you know, checked, have your have have your intellectual capacity checked, and, you know, other aspects of your of your ability to to to live in modern society checked. Now the fear is that okay well now you're going to run into a republic to to to a republican. You know, party which is racist which is anti Muslim which is, you know, many things I've said about that, you know, personally I don't think that that's true. Right, but I think that that's the fear that is kind of being pushed, you know, to ensure that, you know, you know, this kind of, and again, I'm not from here from the East Coast. And so this is all new to me in turn of the California meaning I've been here for, you know, eight years when in terms of the kind of the left progressive, you know, agenda obviously Massachusetts is is is similar but I have to say that we're definitely we're definitely the child this in California is the parent, in terms of how, you know, liberal politics is played out here on a state on a state level so I think there's absolute truth to what you're saying. And I think if we continue moving in to this kind of, you know, aggressive, which I would even call this aggressive, you know, secularism and this aggressive, you know, atheism that that that is a part of it that more and more Muslims will begin to move away from this progressive. And I think that is a driving is a driving factor in that with some of the social, you know, social conservative positions that I talked about as well to around drugs and abortion and gender and other things such as this question. Where is that Rashma Rashma Rashima. Hi, sorry. I, I think, you know, the answer, you know, the question I had, I was going to just say that, you know, I've lived here a long time, and Muslims used to be more Republican back in like my dad back in the 90s because they believed in the small government and family values, you know, they kind of were. I think the great promise of America is that we should be able to live in that live. You know, if nobody should be able to I mean, ideally nobody would be pushing your ideas or you're very much a religious person or very much a secular person down each other's throat but that we should all learn to respect and, you know, I guess respect and be able to get along and live together. Okay, I have a question. One of the statements that you had talked about not arguing that argument was not a good thing. And I wondered about how do you feel about people having debates on, for example, if if one person is more democratic and their philosophy and the others more Republican, is it okay in your religion to debate? Yes, 100%. And I wanted to, you know, hopefully bring some clarity to that it's not the fact that you that even that argumentation wouldn't happen but it's saying is don't let it move to a place of divisiveness and don't let it move to a place where there's enmity and don't let it be a place where, you know, people are taking up arms against each other over this right or these, you know, that's that's more of what it's talking about absolutely. And it's actually because this is what we think about is that war really is in conflict is the inability for people to actually argue. There's this level of frustration and then that occurs because you actually are, you know, superior in your ability to form an argument. And, and I don't want to yield to it anymore so I'm going to be now use force. And that's something that I really think, you know, is absolutely problematic. So I think that that the idea is not just that people won't argue people will argue. To argue in a way that is, that is, that is, as we said, is amicable. Right. It's congeniality is respect. Even if I differ with your opinion, I respect you as a human being and your intellectual like what you used from your logic from your rhetoric, you know, to formulate the idea and then to express it whether written or spoken or whatever that is. I mean, even with it 100%. But the fact that, you know, it doesn't come to this point where we tear each other down as a result of not of not being on the same position. That's very helpful. So, are there any more questions we have a six more minutes before 615. No, it's not. So, let us give Eman Dawood, Rashim, Yashim, a big hand. Thank you. And next month is December. And we don't do a religion chat in December because people get busy with lots of other things activities that are going on. And so we'll send you an email about our January event and we hope to see you and tell your friends about it. Be well, and happy Thanksgiving and happy Christmas, Hanukkah, whatever you're celebrating. What is the Muslim celebrate in December do they celebrate something. Well, I wouldn't say that's something in December per se. But the, you know, we are, we would just say that the beginning of each month is quite a quite an event for us in that it is the birth of the new moon is something that's really powerful. And so as is. So it's interesting that he was at a guru of forgive my mispronunciation. But but he talked about Diwali and this festival of light, but it is something that is there's a special prayers for that. And there's acknowledgement of it but in the month of December because it's a lunar calendar following the lunar calendar the holidays change that are not set in a certain in a certain month. Imam does doesn't your name mean new moon. Well, it's interesting because Dawood is not an Arabic word. Yes, I mean, yes. So yes. So it's interesting to ask that question. There are certain what they're called haruf and the disconnected letters actually in Quran. It's a secret. No one really knows what it is. But however, the verse in it talks about there is a chapter in the Quran called the scene. And it's actually one of the names attributed to the Prophet Muhammad. The first chapter that I heard of the Quran before it just I melted my heart melted. I just wet and that's what grew me to Islam. There is a verse in that talks about, you know, we the new moon is set runs at stations. It disappears and it comes back like like the date kind of curved bowed leaf. And then we start the month over again. So yes. Well, we have to wish the Hindus happy Diwali. Happy Diwali. Thank you. Thank you. Take care everyone. God bless. Thank you very much. See you in January. Bye. Bye bye. Is Ruth Gaston. I want to welcome you to interfaith interconnects monthly religion chat. Well, a lot has happened since our last month's meeting. That was the first virtual religion chat we have done. And I thought it went very well. But in the meantime, we have had a national election. And, you know, I was thinking about it. And we really have a lot to be proud of because in spite of the COVID-19 pandemic, more people voted in this election than in any other election before it. Democracy is in full force. However, sadly, we still have great divisions in our country. And so I was thinking about what I wanted to say. I just want to say that proximity breeds understanding and distance breeds fear. And what we try to do with interfaith interconnect is bring people together. And I think it's over Zoom and all you can do is see them up to here. But we are more together than we are apart. Which brings me to reading our mission statement to enrich, inform, and educate ourselves and others about the great diversity of faiths and cultures in our Valley. So today's topic, which is the same one we did last month, is extremely relevant, given the great division that there is in our country. And I will read the topic to you. It's how does your congregation help to bridge the different political or social justice use within it. And we have two speakers, and I am going to read you a little bit about them. The first speaker is Garav Rastogi, who is an interfaith Hindu speaker. And he writes and talks about Hindu scriptures, bringing the ancient wisdom into practical language that can be applied to anyone interested in living deeply. So Garav, you're on. Thank you, Gar. Thank you, Ruth. And hello to everyone, each one of my friends here. So good to see everyone. Are you able to hear me? Yeah. Thank you. I wanted to begin with a prayer for this season. It's that time of the year. It's November and each day is of course now shorter and each night is longer. And as the shadows extend we reach for the light that guides us. The weekend is the first moonless night of the season this Saturday. And we celebrate in the Hindu tradition, Diwali, which is a celebration of the light within, as well as the festival of lights. We celebrate by lighting candles, but they're not wax candles, but here we use wax candles, but essentially lay out lights in a sequence and just like a chain around the house and celebrate the darkest night of the year with lights. And we call it Diwali, and it's a time for rebirth. And it is also a time for to think about the meaning of material life itself. And so I wanted to chant for you this famous Upanishad. It's a verse from Hindu scripture. It's one of the oldest scriptures. This is the Brahma Arunaka Upanishad, which is the great wilderness lectures. And I'm going to chant it for you. I'll also describe the meaning later so you're able to follow along. For now, just sit comfortably in any posture. You can sit as you're sitting, but sit with your back straight, your back neck and head in a straight line. Close your eyes gently and relax the expression on the face. Relax your shoulders. Relax your belly. Now bring all your attention into the belly. As you inhale, let the belly expand. As you exhale, let go. Inhaling into the belly. And as you exhale, let go of all your thoughts, all preoccupations, any concerns that you walked in with. Just let everything go. Breathing into the belly, let the belly expand. Breathing out. Simply let go. I'm going to chant Om once, then I'll chant the verse. Then I'll describe the meaning to you. You can keep your eyes closed. In English, this is translated as from untruth, lead us to truth. From darkness, lead us to light. From death, lead us to immortality. Om, peace, peace, peace. And welcome to today's conversation. The topic today is really interesting. I had a lot of fun researching it and just collating my thoughts because I was looking for something that makes it a compelling story and something that is enjoyable to hear. And what's enjoyable if there's no disagreements or differences of opinion. The topic today is, how does your congregation help to bridge the different political or social justice views within it? And so using the idea of social justice, I went back to read up on what social justice issues we really do care about these days. And four stood out as things that we, there's a lot of conversation within the community, the wider community here in the US about it. And why not think about how the Hindus are thinking about it and what, if any, are the differences of opinion within the broader Hindu community on these issues. So the four issues that, the social justice issues that I'm going to talk about are climate justice, which is of course includes being aware of the environment, ecological action, as well as the fact that third world countries and poorer people will be more directly impacted by the climate change. And so climate justice is really about balancing that. So climate justice is a hard issue upon unintended, it just came to me, I apologize. The second is transgender and LGBTQ plus issues, which is dealing with, you know, issues of homosexuality, as well as transgenders. The third is refugees, which is an issue of tremendous concern, of course. And, and the fourth is a social justice and specific to Hinduism, of course, I would be remiss if I don't talk about the caste system because everyone wants to hear that anyway. So we'll cover that. Let's begin with climate justice. And I noticed there's a Salman Khan on this call, which is fantastic. Sir, I'm not referring to you in this story. I'll tell you a story. So 20 years ago, this famous movie star Salman Khan, not the gentleman on this call, by the way. So Salman Khan is one of the three or four big cons that are famous actors in India. Their movies come out, they sell, they sell out. It's equivalent of launching your movie on Thanksgiving or Christmas. The movies sell out. Super famous movie stars. He's out in the Indian desert, which is also in India on the west side of India. And he goes out hunting hunting because it's apparently what one does. He goes out hunting deer locally. And as he's out hunting deer, day one, day two, day three, day three, he hits a deer, which isn't an ordinary deer. This is a black bug. It's an Indian antelope, very beautiful looking creature. It's on the endangered species list because they've been hunted out of extinction. It's unique to India, but in Texas, you might find a few black bugs as well. They're beautiful looking creatures. So anyway, Salman Khan allegedly is out in a jeep and he shoots a black bug. But next thing you know, three men on a motorcycle come by and they give chase. And they try to catch them. They don't pay no catch up. Eventually, they take the number of the jeep and they register a police case. And what's interesting about the three men on the bike, they were not just ordinary regular villagers. They were regular villagers, but there was nothing ordinary about them. The interesting thing about them was they were part of a Hindu sect called the Bishnois. Bishnois literally means the 29ers. Think of it as 29. And this sect has 29 rules that their founder gave them about 500 years ago. And they're all about eco conservation. Because they're in a desert, eco conservation is a big thing. And the black book is extremely dear to this community. It's so dear that they raise black book children just like their own children. If you look up on the internet, you'll see women that are feeding child on one side, black bug on the other side, both sucking at the teeth. So they're really fond of the black bugs. They treat them as divinity. And for them, any tree being cut or any black bug being injured is terrible. So these poor villagers against the might of India's, you know, raining movie star is a story that a movie should be made about but wouldn't be. These guys then register a case. And as you'd expect money wins even in India. So, so they lose the case they fight at the higher court and higher court, 20 years elapsed. And they go all the way eventually the high court says look, there's no proof that the bullet that killed the black but came from this guy's gun. It sounds like a cop out. But the point was that they pursued the case. And finally, I think he has a, you know, he has a jail term waiting for him at some point in the future. The point is, there is a set of Hinduism that actually is is is a very strong eco conservationist, but they're not alone. There's another community in the northern parts of India where, if you heard the term tree hugger, the term tree hugger originally comes from these people where the mountains were being eroded the forests were being cut. The company that makes tennis rackets in the 1970s for for sale here had the 10 had a contract to cut 300 trees. And these are the women in this community decided we're not having any of this. So they tie themselves to the trees. And there are these very moving pictures of poor village women who are who are essentially tied to the tree because they're not going to let the trees get cut. The trees did not get cut. The movement and the trees both survived and eco feminism is a big deal in that. But neither of these are actually unique to you know some quirky sects of poor Hindu people at all Hindus in general tend to be eco conservationist. We do our prayers we we tend to pray to all the five elements. And in that sense, there's a very active interest in eco conservation. And so within the Hindu community on the social justice issues. There's really not much range of differences of opinion where one sect says you know, drill baby drill and the other sect says no no no cutting trees. Generally speaking Hindus are tend to be on the progressive vendor of the eco conservation side when it comes to protecting the environment. And so that's one story which I thought was interesting. Let's talk about homosexuality. So it turns out India inherited India and a lot of British colonies inherited British common law and British law in general. So if you look up section 377 is common to all these countries where all their civic laws have a section 377 which in the 1800s, Victorian morality, of course, the outlawed homosexuality. And, and the same here Victorian morality is all over. And in 2018, the courts finally struck down this as being illegal and because it's of course illogical. So the decriminalization of homosexual relations is is a very tough touchy subject and I remember. And by the way everything that you do with the Hindus thanks to the overwhelming impact of Bali word. The coping mechanism for everything in India is that you make a movie about it. So there used to be movies poking fun at homosexuality in a light. These are romcoms or brocoms in the sense that it's just the nudge nudge wing wing wing kind of thing. So when this outlawing when the 377 section 377 was cancelled, the way the Hindu community reacted was a lot of silence. You know the religious community wasn't out putting out edict saying no, no, this is ridiculous. It's a crime against God. There's none of that system in the Hindu tradition. There's been a lot of acceptance. And of course, as you'd expect a coping mechanism is now there are other comedy movies made about homosexuality but in a different way, not the nudge nudge wing wing of 20 years ago. There's some controversy within the Hindu tradition cause I controversy on whether the marriage itself is something that that should be done in a religious framework or a civil framework. And some people say that there's no need for a religious framework for marriage because that's to have children. You should have a marriage for civil, you know, for property rights and insurance purposes and so on. That's all legit, but on the, the religious side is probably not required because you're not going to have kids from that union. You can of course adopt. So within the Hindu tradition on homosexuality, there's been broader acceptance on LGBTQ plus. That's quite interesting because Hinduism in general has been known by non binary from the inception. So we do recognize the third gender. We've always recognized the third gender. And, and what's happened now is, as we're letting go of the British sort of Victorian era rules and laws. There's a broader acceptance of third gender people within the Hindu community. They, in fact, recently, the one of the states in India launched a metro station which is now called rainbow rainbow station. And it's of course it's celebrating the third gender. And there's a whole university that's been created just for people that are of the third gender. Because previously they were not able to get jobs or they were not able to get education and employment. So in general, there's acceptance of homosexuality as well as LGBTQ plus issues. There's of course cultural pushback as you can well imagine that culturally it's not accepted but younger more modern people are accepting of it. And it's all, there's no religious sort of problem with it in that sense. So let's come to the next issue which is the issue of refugees, which isn't a modern issue by any means. And Hindus in general have been accepting of other traditions. Hindus, the broader region of India has been accepting persecuted people for thousands of years. So there have been, there are Jewish people from 2500 years ago all over India that are very interestingly in the northeast part, like super remote part of India in the mountains. There's a community that realized only lately about 70 years ago that their tradition was oddly Jewish. And then they checked with people in Israel and they found out that, yeah, well, you check out and you're probably one of the last tribes of Jewish people. And so they were inducted and some people have moved to Israel, many of course live in India. So Jewish people have been in India for about 2500 years. Out of Iran, the Zoroastrian people moved about 600 to 700 years and were given land and respect and of course continue to thrive. Very active community, small but very active community. The St. Thomas, of course the Doughton Thomas, St. Thomas is quite interesting. The early Christians in India traced back to St. Thomas and his ministry, so they're Syrian Christians, and they've been around for 2000 years as well. So in general, there's a broad acceptance of refugees in the Indian tradition. More recently, India created a law to fast track religiously persecuted minorities from neighboring countries. That way, they have an access to, for example, Sikh people from Afghanistan who were the remaining Sikh people. They just moved to India and they were given access. There is some degree of controversy with previously Bangladeshi refugees, which don't come anymore because Bangladesh is actually doing really well economically. And now with Rohingya refugees, which are going into all countries, including India around because of the troubles in Burma, there is some degree of economic pushback, but it's everywhere. Now let's talk about the big elephant in the room, which is the last issue I'm going to talk about, which is the caste system. Now the caste system, the word caste itself of course is Portuguese, caste from purity. And the European people had strange purity laws. They had very class based system. The 1% would only marry from within each other and everybody else was either a serf or a landowner or whatever. So when they came to India, the same genius minds that came to America and called the native Americans as Indians. The same geniuses came into India and said, okay, we have to figure out a way to make sense of these people. And they reinvented a new system and gave a call it caste system. Now, don't get me wrong, India is a really old society and the Hindus in general, like every other community, are very class conscious. Add to it the occupational tradition, which is within the community. For example, weverse, the sons of weverse are weverse, the sons of archers are archers, the sons of smiths are smiths, the sons of rights are rights. These are English last names, but you get the idea. Occupational communities tended to pass their occupation down. And if your community is lower in the social pecking order, then there's a lot of social order issues that come out of that. And so the British invented a caste system out of this occupational community thing. Over the last, I guess, few decades, Hindus have been trying to get rid of it. Caste system exists not merely in the Hindu tradition, all other communities in India, you know, Christians have cast in India, Islamic Muslim people have cast in India as well. There's a lot, because again, racism and classism is prevalent everywhere. It's not a core part of the Hindu tradition and what the Hindus have been trying to do is get rid of it in many different ways. One interesting way is reservation. So a lot of jobs, education as well as jobs, 50 to 70% of positions are reserved for people from certain communities. And that's one way. The other is because of these incentives to people from downtrodden communities, the pressure is now reverse. And now people that were previously classified as higher end communities are now trying to politically sort of come around and be assigned a lower denomination so that they're able to get those reservations for education as well as jobs. So it's an interesting dynamic that's going on. Within the Hindu tradition, for example, here, you know, at the Livermore temple or any other temple, we don't, we don't know, everyone's welcome. You don't need to be Hindu to come in. In general, when we're here, we have no idea what anyone's caste is. No one's ever asked me. I've never asked anyone. And, and here, it's not as if we're interested in retaining those distinctions that in classes that exist. So that's really the only controversial part that I could find within the Hindu tradition. So four issues that I've talked about climate justice. I've told you the story of eco conservation. Homosexuality, I've talked to you about section 377 and the transgenders refugees. I've talked about the sort of broad tradition of refugees and the caste system, of course, I've covered a little bit about. So that's the range of social justice issues and the differences of opinion within the Hindu tradition that exist. By the way, on the caste system, one of the big things that you might have heard of is that there's a priestly class and there's, you know, people that are untouchables. Over the last couple of decades, there's been a lot of investment by Hindu sort of reformist and just different organizations over the last, I think, five years, 5000 people from untouchable communities. There were untouchability is a crime in India. So 5000 people have been trained to be priests, and they can now serve in temples and they're certified and, you know, and so on. So there's that degree of reformation that's going on, and that has brought acceptance as well. So that was a talk that's the broad range of Hindu perspectives on social justice issues. I'm happy to take any more questions in the couple of minutes we have remaining. Ruth, I turn it back to you. You're on mute, of course. Yeah. Am I not on mute now. Yes. Good. So, questions for Garav, just raise your hand on the chat, and we'll call on you. Oh, we have to get back to the other people, right? Yeah. Oh, okay. And if you don't know how to raise your hand, you can just unmute and start talking. Did you hear that. Yeah, I have a question. How are you, sir? You mentioned about an effort to, or, yeah, efforts to kind of end, or, yeah, efforts to end the caste system. What would that end goal look like in that, right? So it's one as it, right? So we talk about it, atelios, right? So at the end, what would that look like? What would it bring India to as a country? And you mentioned that from the Portuguese roots, is it solely from that, or is there an aspect? I think you did say that there is also a kind of a class system that exists inside of, you know, the hierarchical system that exists inside of Hinduism as well, too. Yeah. So the, what's happening now is, so there's a lot of, of course, Port Bank politics that India is a thriving democracy. And the interesting thing there is, there's been a lot of vote banking where you sort of, you make a little Venn diagram, then you make a smaller circle and you own that circle to somebody else makes a smaller, yet smaller circle inside. So there's a lot of social justice issues that masquerade or that are overwhelmed by, by these vote bank politics. And the big drive there is, you can't really govern by vote banking smaller bits, you're going to have to look for issues that everyone's interested in. So politically what I see happening is, there's been a drive to create broader platforms around the economy, for example. So India has made 120 million, 110 million toilets, because people didn't have toilets, for example. And so just bread and butter issues, so that people are more interested in those, instead of, you know, who their community is and what their neighbor is, because those issues are not germane to a modern society. And that's what's going on on that front. The emphasis on education has definitely been a big deal where, if you look at the IT people that come from India, off late, right? I mean, I came as part of that boom so I can speak for that. No one really cares what community you're from. You've done your engineering, you're in IT, go get your thing. And what happens with that is, each one person that's in the IT business, for example, feeds 10 other people in the community because the whole community gains out of that. And that changes the dynamic. So there's a lot more interest in engineering, for example, as a career option, because you can go past, you can leapfrog, you know, hundreds of years of subjugation by just four years of engineering. And that's been a big change. And now, of course, other occupations as well. I think broadly the end goal is really look is to get to a point where people are focused on economic development and cultural and spiritual development instead of being in a sort of regressive medieval mindset because that's not helping anyone in that sense. Smaller divisions are not going to help all of us pull together. Yes, Ruth. I'm interested in your education system is education free for everybody or do people who are rich get better education than people who are middle class or poor. How does it work. Yeah, that's a great question. I have to tell you the education system in India is terrible. I say say that with no sense of irony because I'm here as a result of that, but I'm an exception to that. The education system in India was designed by the British to create civil servants so clerks, people who could write and scribe are not thinking not liberal arts, you know, sort of civic leaders kind of thing. So it's a it's a system that's designed for wrote learning repetition and mastery of memorization of facts rather than an ability to think and reason and argue. And that's been a problem. That's one problem. Now your question is, do rich people go to better school. Yeah, I went to a Christian school, because of course those are private schools. And I have had a Christian education all through my my my schooling as a result of that. So yeah, rich people do go to private schools private schools are, of course, they charge more, and they're better public schools are getting better so there's a sort of left leaning socialist type government in Delhi which is the city I grew up in and they're putting a lot of investment into improving the quality of public schooling, which I should say public schools when they say public school in India, those are private schools, government schools are public schools but never mind. So, public schooling is generally low quality but they're trying to improve it. Pocity of teachers is a problem. Huge country, you can't, and lots of young people you don't have enough good quality teachers because everyone's a product of the same learning system that came by. Higher education, however, is actually good in India. And it's super cheap. I did my entire engineering in the equivalent of let me see $70 over four years is probably all I paid, and it's highly subsidized. But public education is very cheap I did my MBA at India's number one program for maybe $1,000 of modern money. It wasn't expensive. And, and that's the relic of the socialist sort of economy that India had been for the longest time. Now there are private education institutions and a lot of kids come here to the US for their masters because they really want to get a better longer sort of deeper education. The poor people in general, Ruthie, your question is poor people do not have access to high quality education. They have access to government education which is free, but nothing. It's not, it's not really great quality. Okay, so, did I say that correctly? Yes, hand up. Okay, so you're going to go and then john and one day. Hello, thank you so much for your the information. I'm trying to see who's talking so I can actually look at your face. Sorry. Hold on let me let me let me see if I can. Yes. Hi, yes, I see you. Yeah, I was. So I, I'm a Muslim from India I didn't realize we had a caste system so that we, I thought that was one of the, you know, I think it what may may have happened is that we, the Muslims that converted Hinduism may have absorbed it but theoretically at least Islam doesn't recognize the caste system so Yeah, I agree. That's the theory but I think it's a cultural system more than it is anything if you go to matrimony sites even in Pakistan which is you know, you'll see a lot of that. Yeah, it's a really racism because usually when you go to matrimony sites it's usually are you fair and slim and what Yeah. Yeah, and for example if you speak English in India with a particular accent then you're higher order human than someone who speaks with an accent because then you're you know lesser species of humanity I guess. So there's a lot of, you know, classism that goes on in India, every community has that. There I am. Okay, I'm back down to mute. So my question is all this is wonderful and thank you very much for all this information. My question is more on a microcosm level is within my own congregation we have quite an Episcopalian Christian, we have quite some very big differences politically, and maybe even faith wise. So how do in your congregation how do you deal with those huge differences between people and. Yeah, that's an interesting question because it turns out, so Hindus in general are not congregational I should I hasten to add. So it's not that this temple in Livermore is we can go to any temple we go to all the temples so I speak for the broader American Hindu population here. Politically, it's been quite interesting where Hindus in general skew highly Democrat Democratic and till a few years ago it was odd, you'd see a few people out on the East Coast that skew Republican and and and people didn't know what to deal with that. What's happened off late is that the the sort of locus is shifting a little Hindus are skewing somewhat of still overwhelmingly blue but more people are leaning Republican depending on who they are and what they are. A lot of that is just what media they're watching what kind of people they're following or what issues they care for. So if you see. If you see the Trump government a lot of his you know if the people that work for him were Indian people and and so you see that and you see a lot of sort of swing how Hindus are dealing with this red versus blue polarization is we don't talk about it at the temple because we're not congregational we don't have to see each other's face ever. We don't have to you know we don't go to the temple on Sundays or Tuesday and say you you sir are doing this or that we just don't. So because we don't have to see each other. There's really not that much argumentation you can do your own thing and run your own platform, and it doesn't invite as much trouble, you can meet each other for festivals and there's not much issues that debates don't happen within the community, which is part of the challenge where of organizing Hindu waters because how do you tell them where to work they're going to work whichever the way they individually feel. And that's just how this community is organized, but politically overwhelmingly Democrat now beginning to shift a little bit to the if you look at political leanings. The Hindus tended to be the most blue of all communities in the US seeds outright like majority blue, but that is shifting a little as you'll see also with the Latinos that are shifting a little to World Republic and a certain type of Latinos for example. So that's the interesting shift, but it hasn't created a schism in the community if that's your question it's not as if people are screaming at each other. And really find each other that hasn't happened because we don't see each other at the temple. Okay, so we have time for one more question and that's Sandy. Good evening. Yeah, I'm in India now so it's six, seven o'clock in the morning. So I just wanted to share along with Gaurav's thought, I mean his speech on education. So the one huge difference I see education in India and US is there is not much of cost difference from public to private schools. In fact, and also my medical education he finished his engineering in Gaurav, he finished engineering in $70 my whole medical education finished in $200 versus $350,000 in US. Right, so we came to like no yeah to improve my skills I came abroad, but I'm back to India to serve my community also here. So I think education is a huge cost in US but in India also compared to the time I did my undergrad and postgrad medicine now it's become a little more expensive but as such education is not that expensive compared to Western countries, even in private schools. And I studied in private schools mostly but just on merit basis my father gets admission I don't pay extra fees. So, that's my input. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So, I'm going to end Gaurav's time and thank you. And I want to say thank you very much. And I'm going to clap. Thank you.