 Hello again, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Yes, We're Here, I'm Jack Curry. And today we're joined by Dwight Gooden, former Met, former Yankee, Dr. Kay, Cy Young Award winner, three World Series championships, one with the Mets and two with the Yankees. And Doc, as I welcome you into the show, I first want to start by asking, how are you and your family handling everything that's been thrown your way with the pandemic? The everything is going well. First, thanks for having me. It's good to be talking to you again, Jack, it's been a while. I'm in Florida now, visiting my grandkids. I have six grandkids, and so I get down here to see them, so this is great. Just try to mix it up a little bit. But thank God, the family's good, everybody's healthy, and I'll be biking in New Jersey real soon. So just taking a day at a time and hopefully we'll get a sports bike real soon. So one of those grandkids is watching YouTube, and he looks up 1984. What does he think about Grandpa Dwight, Grandpa Doc, and what you did to batters during that 1984 season? My eight-year-old grandson, he plays the league, and he loves baseball. I mean, he has a passion for baseball. He speaks to his bat, and he has a thousand questions. And during the summer, he normally is up in New Jersey with me, going to some of the Yankee fans, going to some of the games. And so we talk a lot about it. I show him some videos, and so he's great. My six-year-old grandson, he loves baseball. He plays too in high school, but what's amazing is, I have a 15-year-old son who's my youngest son. Unfortunately, he likes football and basketball. He's not a baseball fan, but when he was playing a little league, biking to New Jersey, I mean, we're going back maybe like 10 years, and I was telling him about, I should pitch where he wanted to pitch. I said, I'll work with you. I'll show you some things to do. And he goes, what do you know about pitching? So I had to pop in some tape for Sean, and to him, I'm just dad. So while he was playing a little league, and then some of his teammates' parents knew I was, and they would share it with their kids. That's how he kind of understood that I played. Now he understands that I did play, but at a time when he first started playing, it was hilarious because he never knew I played or anything about it. Yeah, I would say you knew a thing or two about pitching, but let's start at the beginning. You're 19 years old making your major league debut in the Astrodome for the Met. Do you remember how tense, how excited, how nervous you were that day? Oh man, I was very nervous because, I mean, there's something that you look forward to. It's a dream come true. It was my father's dream since I was a kid. I'm gonna make it, and now here I am. I finally got the opportunity. Finally got what I asked for, and then a year and a half out of high school, and now I get my first game. So obviously, very nervous, a lot of anxiety, and you're wondering if I'm ready. Did I do enough work? Was it more work than you'd be done? And I remember having lunch with my parents earlier that day, the message kind of flew up into Houston. And after we had lunch, I was just so nervous with anxiety, and the bus was up to a five, and I remember asking the concierge guy how to get to the Astrodome. What's the way you can get there? He goes, why just take a cab? I said, no, I wanted to walk. And it was about three miles, I think, and I ended up walking to the Astrodome. Very nervous. And once I got there, I didn't know how to get in. I ended up climbing like an eight-foot fence. True story, I climbed the fence, and obviously, once I got across the fence, security was right there, waiting on me. And they called, they called us here. I told them I'm docking, and I'm pitching tonight, and I'm like, sure you're pitching tonight. And I remember I had to show my ID. And luckily, Steve Gardner, Steve Gardner, I had trains, was already at the ballpark, and he came out to verify for me, and that's how I started out. And facing the first hitter, Bill Dorn, was very nervous, had my prayers in the stands. But once I, I spoke out to Dickie Thun for the third out in the first inning, that kind of coming down a little bit. You pitched five innings, you got the win. You got a win for being able to jump over the fence. You won the rookie of the year that year. But in 1985, Doc, you had a season for the ages 24 and four, a 1.53 ERA, 16 complete games. We've got a great research staff at Yes. And they told me that conservatively, that's one of the top 10 best seasons a starting pitcher has ever had. What do you remember about that magical season? Thanks for the kind words. Just unbelievable. I remember after my going to spring training in 1985, you know, you hear all about the sophomore jinx, and I actually had a bad spring training because I remember David Johnson was trying to force me to use my changeup. Changeup was terrible. But then he got to the point where every other pitch, I had to throw a changeup no matter what the count was, who the battle was in a situation. And I feel like two winners, the hitters, figured it out. So they'll just take the fastball and the curveball and just sit on this changeup, which was nothing. And once the season actually started, David said, okay, can that changeup, just go back to the pitch where you know the pitch. And having Gary Carter there, a veteran catcher, experienced catcher, he played a huge part of that. And just from the first game, even though I got a notice stage in opening against the Cardinals, but from the start of that season, I just felt like it was going to be something special. Obviously the crowd was bigger. Just a lot of expectation from the media, from the fans, and also for myself. And that's about four, five stars a year. It became more than just a game. And what I mean by that was each start, you wanted to tennis rackouts. You wanted a complete game. You wanted to shut out. Because, you know, that's what the people wanted. And that's what I expected. And no disrespect to other hitters or other teams, but it just was bigger than a game at that time and more than just a start. And I remember between starts, Mel Stardemar would challenge me, so I didn't get complacent what was going on. They always find things to work on and get better. Doc, there's been so much that has been written and so much that has been said about the 1986 Mets. How would you describe the journey you took with that very rowdy, very talented bunch? Oh, man. You said it right. It was a ride. It was just like a roller coaster ride, but a great ride. You know, we got to do something out of night on our SMY. We had some guys there, you know, watching Game 6. It was great seeing those guys that just the reminisce, seeing that the guys are healthy. And if that was to do well, because you share so much time with those guys. And, you know, was kind of labeled as a cocky group, you know, wild bunch, all this stuff. And probably true, but we fell off the fans. But the thing about it was a lot of knowledge. And I was mentioning that to the guys, we had a lot of knowledge, a lot of guys that loved to get on baseball. And I remember on Sundays, after they gave us a shade and traffic would be so bad at the games, we'll sit in the clubhouse, drink beer and just talk about baseball for hours. And that's one of the things I missed the most. And so many guys on the team put Eagles aside. We had, like, say Kevin Mitchell, Tim Toffle, Howard Johnson, Danny Heap. Guys who could have been starters on other teams, they put on Eagles aside just for one come and go. And I was the winner of a series. And it started at the top with Frank Cash and baby Johnson later away. Just a great group of guys, a lot of chemistry. And you hear it a lot of times about teams that you got to have chemistry and most of them win a team. But to me, chemistry is, what are you guys doing off the field? What are you doing? We don't have games. We're spending a lot of time together, whether it's going out to eat, whether it's hitting the town or whatever it was. But a lot of us, we're always together and we depend on each other. And if we got down to it, we'll get on each other and somebody threw it up or someone right. But at the end of the day, you do those guys in your corner. That's what made that much special. That team obviously deserves to be celebrated. You mentioned some of the names right there, some of the great players on that team. I talked to Darryl Strawberry a couple of weeks ago and you know this as well as he knew this. There's a belief that that team should have won more, Doc. That you guys, maybe in 88, the Dodgers, you had dominated them all year. You couldn't get past them in the lead championship series. When you reflect on those Mets years, I'm sure you're excited about winning in 86. Do you think those teams left something on the table? Should they have won more? Oh, definitely. At least got to the post season. The team that we had in 86, like I said, when the chemistry stuff was there and after that season over, coming to spring training in 87, we were suspecting the repeat. We had the chemistry, we had the guys. Unfortunately, you know, I was in treatment the first two months and at one time or another, our whole staff had went down with different barriers and injuries and it just didn't come together. And 88, that team there, I thought on paper was probably better than the team we had in 86. I'm not sure if the chemistry was the same, but on paper, statistics was definitely better. I thought we had a better team than the Dodgers. Unfortunately, as you know, in the post season, a lot of times the best team always wins. The team would get hot at the right time and with her shot, the Dodgers got hot at the right time. Because I think that year we only lost it at one time. Unfortunately, they beat us in that series and I think everything changed, which I hate to say was the pitch that threw the mic associate. That pitch still bothers me to the day. Every time 88 come up, I think about that one pitch and he got me and things, but they weigh and I changed the whole series and they got the best of us and then they went on to beat the Oakland. And then after that, we never could get it back together. On paper, we had some great teams. Like, I remember one staff we had, myself, David Cohn, Saber Hagen, Frank Baola, those guys, we thought for sure, but that staff, we should be right there. It just didn't work out and I definitely think we left titles on the table. No doubt about it, but you know, it happens and what can you say? At least we got that one. You had a second act, an important second act in your career with the Yankees. How important was George Steinbrenner in your life, in your career at that time, and making that happen? Oh, George Steinbrenner and his family, I couldn't thank them enough. None of that, when I was suspended for, well, actually in the 94 season and then 95, I was suspended for the entire season. I knew the mess when it cut ties, which I completely understood. I wanted to go back to, you know, just to make you right with the fans and Mr. Steinbrenner gave me an opportunity to come back to the Yankees. I remember the first meeting I had with George in 95, it was right before the playoffs started with Seattle, they had, and we talked, he didn't talk nothing about baseball. He just wanted to know what I've been doing my time, how I've been spending my time, and what's going on with my life. And I thought it was great. I said, you know, I told him what was going on. Three days later, after the playoffs was over in Seattle, I had eliminated Yankees. We met again, talked about some of the Yankees, and once my suspension was up, a sound of the Yankees, and it was great. He just told me, pitch while I make a pitch, everything will be good. I was fortunate that year in 96, I got off to a slow start, but he was always in the corner, tough guy, very tough guy, but you knew at the end of the day, he was in your corner. And I remember when my dad was sick in the hospital before he passed away, and this is six o'clock morning, anything that George had done. He flew, he was flying into Tampa for a meeting, and he ran into Ray and Groom at the Yankees Spring Training Complex, and he asked Ray, how's Doc's dad? And Ray told him, because he's not too good, Doc said the hospital would have known. And he told Ray, go into the meeting, tell those guys I'll be in there a little later. He never went to the meeting, he came straight to the hospital, spent about an hour or two hours with my dad, and just talked baseball, just talked about life itself. And that to me, show what kind of guy he was. He didn't have to do that at all, especially at the meeting, but he did that. And gave him an opportunity in 2000 when my career, I thought, was over. I started with Houston, I pitched one game, went to Tampa, pitched eight games, got released. He called me himself, I still won the pitch, said, yes, he said, I'm gonna work out with Billy Connors, you know, in Tampa, if things don't work out, you can't work for me. So after my career was over in 2000, I worked for George for six years, and what a tremendous guy. And obviously a baseball guy, and he got beat up a lot, by just saying, oh, he's buying players, bringing players in. But I looked at that as, he was invested back into his team, where all the owners had the same opportunity, but there was pocket in money. George was a fan, as you know, the team, and he won't do anything to try to win. I have to respect that. And I still don't understand, and it's just my opinion, George is not in the whole of fame. I don't understand that, I don't get it, but you know, I don't know. But just a tremendous guy, obviously as an owner, and what he's done for the Yankees, but a tremendous guy, for what he's done, for the people in Tampa, that people don't even know about. He always told me that if you're doing stuff from the heart, who needs cameras? And I've witnessed him doing so many different things, so many people, especially myself and my family as well. Doc, you mentioned how we talked to you about you while you were suspended, not about baseball. What did you learn about yourself, when you didn't have baseball for the end of 94, and then all of 95? Since you're a kid, baseball was your world. Baseball was your life, and you were forced to not have it in your life anymore. What kind of soul searching did you do at that time? Oh man, at the beginning it was very tough. Not having baseball, like you said, something I've had since I was seven years old, and had that taken away because of my own self-destruction. It was very, very tough. At the beginning it was hard to set, it was a lot of stuff, a pity. Once I got into a rhythm and understanding that I had to take care of a problem first, put baseball aside, take care of what was going on with me first, then things would get better. And I remember talking with Bob Clappage for a bit, and he gave me Rainier Groves number, who happened to live in St. Petersburg, Florida while I was doing the time. And my attention was to try to go to Japan. I said, I want to go to Japan because I still wanted to play. I was in denial about the disease of drugs and alcohol. And once I met Ray, he said, I'll get you to Japan, but you got to get in shape first. And we started working out. He'll come by every day. We went to Eckerd College, our local college, started working out. And this guy, Larry Mail, who was the training for the Mets in the early 80s, he ran into a big way of training players that were injured and trying to make comebacks, what have you. He was working me out. And once I started getting in shape, started going to AA and A meetings, and feeling good about myself. And I told Ray, I don't think I wanted to go to Japan anymore. He said, good, because I wasn't sending you anyway. So it was great. And I got in shape, got going, and then I started understanding, I miss baseball, but most importantly, let me get my life straight first, and then baseball will be there. And that's what I have to do. And once I got that in order, and then I felt good about myself, and then baseball became more important again. You pitched some truly incredible games for the Mets, but in your seventh start with the Yankees, you throw a no-hitter against a very good Seattle Mariners team. Just a memorable night. Your father was having open heart surgery in Florida the next day that had to be weighing heavy on your mind. When you reflect on that no-hitter, what are the first things you think about? Oh, man, incredible. The first thing I think about was where I was at the time, like, you know, that season before I was suspended, as you just mentioned, not knowing about ever getting to a uniform again in the Mates, and especially being back in New York, because I always wanted to make it right with the fans. And once I got an opportunity, I remember when I talk about that no-hitter, wow, I still get goosebumps just thinking about everything that took place prior to that. Like you said, the first several stars, I remember the first three stars, I started out with three, and I actually got put in a bullpen, basically got benched. And when a pitcher gets benched, I mean, you don't get in a game, you're up 10 or you're down 10. Unfortunately, David Cohen got the aneurysm. That got me back into the rotation, and I think it was my third start back in, third or fourth start back into the rotation. That's when I had the no-hitter for the night. I had the no-hitter. That day, I had permission to fly home to build my father, who was having an open-air surgery the next day. And he had been on dialysis for 15 years, and they figured if he didn't have the surgery, he would make it a week. And if he did have the surgery because of his health conditions, he'd probably make it. So I had permission to fly home, but the day of the no-hitter, I just felt that he would probably want me to pitch. I called Joe Tory, who's a manager at the time, told him I was coming in to pitch. He said, no, go be with your father. Take as much time you need. Come back when you're ready. I said, no, I'll see you tonight. I'm coming in to pitch. And the next call went to my mom, which she didn't take it as well. She said, no, you need to be home. Your family's going to be here. Your dad's expecting you here. You need to be here to support your father. So mom, I had to pitch tonight. She said, no, you should be here. And I ended up hanging up on my mom, which you don't do when my mom was self. So I had to because I was just feeling guilty. And the rest of that day, before I got to the ballpark, just a weird feeling. Just felt like the dog collar of your head. And all I can think about, am I making the right decision? Should I go home? My dad's going to be okay. Once I got to the ballpark, I remember talking with Steve Donahue, the assistant trainer, and Mel Solomar at Pitch and Coons. They just wanted to make sure I was okay and I'll write the pitch. I said, yeah, I'm fine. The first three rounds that I'd game, I was standing in a walkway between the clubhouse and the dugout. Sometime tearing up, one of them I made the right decision and not just thinking about my dad's situation. Not into the six innings when I realized I had a no hitter going. I look at a scoreboard. You see no runs, no hits, no errors. And you're like, wow. Now the harder stuff is beating faster. You get a little anxiety. And maybe to put my dad's situation aside and just concentrate the rest of the game. And the rest of the game, you're pitching, you know, going with it. I remember the ninth inning, well, up to nothing. And I walked two guys in the ninth. And Mel Solomar came out to the mound. He said, how are you doing? I said, it doesn't matter. I'm not coming out. Because once you get that close, you just got to go for it. Even though that line of the Seattle had, to me, was a tough amount of baseball, offensively. And the last pitch I threw in the game, the Paul Sorrento with a hanging curveball, basically sitting on my tee. And he popped it up. And I thought the ball was never coming down. Once the cheater made the catch, everything, every type of motion was going through my body. Thinking about the prior year where I was out of baseball. Thinking about if my dad's going to be OK. Thinking about I'm doing this in Yankee Stadium. Thinking about prior to that season. I was in a bullpen, one of them we had released. Or whether I need another start. All these different motions went through my mind. And obviously that night, I didn't get to sleep. The next day I fly home, took a ball from the game. You get to my dad. Got to the hospital. He was on life support. But the doctor said he did get to watch the game. And he never made it home from the hospital in a passing way. But the last game he had to see me pitch was a no-hitter. And that's what made it that much special. Yeah, that's a pretty special memory for you to have, to have pitched a no-hitter and knowing that your dad had the opportunity to see it. And Doc, when I think back to that 1996 team, and you were a big part of this, not only great players, but unbelievable human interest stories, everything going on with that team, when did you know you were part of a special crew in 1996? I think probably halfway through the middle of the season where I think we were on a road trip. Wade was talking about this a while back. We were talking. And we were on a road trip. And I think we went like 2 and 12 or something like that on the West Coast trip. And at that time, we could have full-time and went down. But guys, we had a meeting. Guys basically got together and just talked about what can we do to make it better for each guy. And I think that's when we really came together after that road trip. I think it was 2 and 12 or 2 and 10, something like that. But I think after that road trip, we went on to win maybe like 10 out of 15 or something like that. But at that time, that's when I knew we had a special group. SpringTran, obviously on paper, we looked great. We had a great team on paper. But just at the beginning, just had to come together. There's a lot of new guys. There's a bunch of four players. Jeter, Posada, those guys. Besides those four guys, they're both based from different organizations. But I think it took a lot of time for us to get together. But I think after that road trip, we won like 2 games out of 10 or 12, something like that. That's when it really came together. You mentioned Jeter. You're a 19-year-old kid starting out the season in 1984. You win the rookie of the year. Jeter was only 21 when he started the season in 96, wins the rookie of the year. Was there something you saw in him, Doc, at a young age that led you to believe this kid's going to succeed in New York? At the time, to be honest, I have to say no. I didn't see anything special. And I remember when we got together, because Tony Fernandez was hurt. And we just basically wanted him to play great defense. That was the only thing we talked about. But I must say the one thing I remembered about Jeter was he came to the ballpark every day. Attitude was the same. You didn't know if he was 0-4, 4-4. You didn't know if he had a game when he hit or not. Kept the same attitude the whole time. And it seemed like he was always in the right place at the right time. He didn't do anything to hurt himself. And the most thing I remember about Jeter when I was there in 96 for a rookie of the year, but when I came back in 2000, he was the same guy that he was that I met in 96. And what I mean by that was same personality. Treat the fans the same. He's always there for you guys, for the media. Treat his teammates the same way. I've played with guys. I've seen guys where they've had success. And then they started changing towards the fans, towards the media, towards teammates. But Jeter was always the same guy all the way through. That's one thing I always admire about him. But in 96 that you asked the question. I didn't see anything spectacular or I didn't see his career turn out the way it did, but what the hell of a career he had. Doc, you won 157 games with the Mets, but you also had an ending that you just talked about. You're part of the 96 World Series team. You're part of the 2000 World Series team. How blessed do you feel that you were able to end your career in the other borough and have an even glossier career because of what you did with the Yankees? Unbelievable. Very, very, very blessed, as you mentioned, because not only the way it turned out, Winners were both Yankees, I mean both New York teams, but to win it in New York can get the opportunity to redo something I missed in 86. What I mean by it was I'm missing the parade in 86. Obviously, you're on the team that won the Borough Series, but you didn't get to celebrate that with your team and with the State of New York win the parade. Unfortunately, I went through a tough time that day, had a major, major drug problem at the time, and missed the parade, it wasn't the parade on TV, but getting the opportunity to do that again, even though I don't get to do the one over with the Mets, but I had to do two with the Yankees and it felt like that was like a relief for me and to do that in New York and with the New York fans, even though Yankee fans, Mets fans, was still to me as all New York fans that always supported me and been in a situation and had the opportunity to do that. I mean, it was a big, big relief for myself and I was able to move on and let go. Doc, I've talked to David Cohn about you a lot and he has talked about how much he loved having you as a teammate, how he loved watching you pitch. There was actually one time where you came to him for a little advice and he couldn't believe that the great Doc Gooden was asking him for some pitching advice. He said when he thinks about your career, he wants to focus on 194 wins. Sa Young, rookie of the year, the World Series titles, that to talk about the Hall of Fame and what might have been missed, that's not fair because only 1% of Major League players get into the Hall of Fame. What about you when you review your own career? Do you think about all that you did or do you think about some of the things that maybe you could have done that but because of your struggles, you never got to that point? That's a great question and a fair question because when I first came to the league, all I remember when I talked to my father was, I just want to be healthy for a long time. I didn't think about any individual awards. I didn't think about the World Series, none of that stuff to happen. Along the way, I got the win just about every award pitch can win. I got to win three rosters, especially during both New York teams. But I remember after my first two years and then going to season 86, unfortunately, and I'll admit it, I, what happened was much fun because I was trying to match the numbers that I had, match the numbers that I had in 85. It wasn't there. Unfortunately, the fans' expectations, the media expectations and more than anything, my expectations wasn't met because I was trying to match those numbers, which unfortunately, I set the bar so high where those numbers probably will never be matched. And normally, when a player has this career, it's normally like you're five or you're six. Unfortunately, I had mine, you're two or possibly, you're one and two. So I was never able to match that. And I used to beat myself up trying to get there. Even about one of my pitch to shout out. It's like, yeah, pitch to shout out. I gave up six hits and, you know, I didn't have four or five strikeouts. I always find some negative. Unfortunately, when I had my time and I got incarcerated in 2006, I got to relive my whole life. I got to understand that who am I to beat myself up about, like you mentioned, a hall of fame? I never thought about the hall of fame, but once I started talking about it, obviously you think about it. I say, you know, I had a pretty good career. I did way more than I expected, way more than anybody expected when I came into the league. So I have nothing to be ashamed of. If anything, I should be proud of it. And it was a privilege, number one, to even play Major League Baseball and accomplish things I was able to accomplish. But unfortunately, I had to go down to rock bottom to understand that and appreciate that. Today, I don't worry about that. I don't beat myself up like you mentioned. What could have been, I look at the things of what I actually was able to do. And this is no offense to anybody that's in the hall of fame or anything. And my chef, my nephew brought this up to me, which is something I've never thought about. He goes, there's probably guys in the hall of fame wish they'd have had your career. I'll say probably, but, you know, they're in the hall of fame. He said, yeah, but the career you have there's no way you have the right to say you didn't do the things you want to accomplish about the hall of fame. So I understand that it put these more in perspective. And again, that's what I'm not going to anybody because I always got to serve it. But so now I look at it totally different. I'm very, very blessed and accepted of the career that I did have and got to share it. And meet so many guys that were teammates that were still friends of they like you mentioned, but David Cohen was still one of my best friends in baseball. I think that's a perfect answer, Doc. And it shows the perspective that you have on your career and your life. And I think that's a perfect way to end this. It's been great talking baseball with you and my little bit of advice to your son and your grandkids is listen to you about pitching. You know a few things about pitching. Thank you, Jack. Thanks for having everybody. And it's always good to talk with you. And I appreciate it.