 And then I have to head off. This is the billed OGM call for Tuesday, December 14th, 2021. My first action will be to apologize and boogie to a different call where I have been back in to do some work this morning. So my apologies. And feel free to close this call whenever you're done with whatever you need to talk about. And thank you. Have a good one. All right. Ooh. Ooh, good morning. Hey. How you doing? Oops. Doing good. I have a funny procrastination story. I've had this client work I was supposed to do over the weekend and procrastinated through the weekend and then procrastinated until 6 PM last night and then did six hours of work more or less. And I get up early. I get up at 4 30 or something like that. So it's kind of a very good time. So I'm not enough sleep. It's still happy I got my work done. That is good. At least it worked. The time when I was bumping library versions and changing the copyright date on an old package I wrote that hasn't been updated for two years, I'm like, OK. This is like rock bottom of procrastination. This code does not need to be touched today. But there's a whole, you know, I was like, oh my god. It's the code that runs. I've got a color light that rotates colors with a JavaScript, you know, a cool web page JavaScript thing that I wrote. It's like, but I can't, you know, my little kid, but I can't work without my color light, like, you know, rotating and stuff, you know. Come on, kid. So I think it turned out not to be the library at bump. It was the fact that it looks like it doesn't run from the web anymore. You have to actually have it as a local file, some kind of cross site, you know. Anyway, every time this happens to me, there's a apocryphal, not apocryphal, but I have a story, you know, Silicon Valley story from the olden days, the 70s or something like that, where I think it was the guy who invented ethernet or something. I don't know. But like they had a shipping deadline, right? And the product isn't quite done. It's not quite done. It's not quite done. And then like the last day, the person, the lead inventor, the company founder, decides that he has to figure out the physics of getting a pencil to stick in the acoustic tile. So he's got pencils and he's throwing them up. And everybody comes into the room and is like, oh my God. You know, because if you do anything, it's not going to speed him up, right? You have to kind of let him get through his pencil throwing exercise. It's like, oh my God. Well, inventor of ethernet, if I remember correctly, it's Bob Metcalf. But other than that, I'm throwing pencils in my brain at the moment. I'm not quite awake. Yeah. Microcrastination skills are, you know, up there, too. So I share, I can imagine your feeling. And it's some kind of ADD thing or something. And also like the timepiece of, well, there's plenty of time to do X thing. I know because I've done it before and your memory of how long it took you to do it. And in a pinch the previous time is optimistic as it is. And but it means that you can leave ever less time to do the thing that you need to do as you go through life. You get optimally, yeah. Yeah. Your all-time personal record becomes your kind of mental average. Yeah. The funny thing is it was a pretty low pressure, you know, it's just another milestone. We're getting, I think part of it is we're getting close to the end of the project. And it's finally getting like finished. You know, I don't like to finish projects apparently. So, you know, it's kind of heavy heart. It's like, oh my God, I'm not going to be able to work on this anymore because it's going to be all done. And I don't know, it's weird. Just today I was, under another, this is an odd thing to share, kind of, but it's not. I don't know if you all know Adam Neely, Adam Neely. Michael, you and I are doing a crappy job of keeping up on our music, amazing music stuff together. I don't know why that is. But anyway, Adam Neely is one of the YouTube music people that I really enjoy watching. He's a very good music analyst. He's also a jazz musician and he does a number of kind of interesting kinds of episodes in his life. This one is really interesting. It's him saying, okay, there's this feeling that, you know, you have this like big show coming up and you do all the prep and you do all the like, you know, and he's doing it with a whole jazz ensemble, a big one, you know. So he's like weeks and weeks of like prep and major prep and working on all the details and fretting about how it's, you know, needs to be perfect even though the audience doesn't really care too much. It's absolutely perfect and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then you do the show and it's, and he talks about this asymptotic kind of like stress, you know, he's got, he podcasts him getting prepped for the show and then doing the show. This asymptotic, you know, like, okay, it's five, you know, the five minute curtain call, you know, where's all, you know, who's, where's this person? You know, are we ready for this? Are we, we got the, you know, and then you do the show and it goes pretty well, you know, and then after the show. So the whole video is about the after the show feeling. It's like kind of like a letdown, you know, it's like, ah, you know. So the title of this is every musician deals with this. And I think it's interesting that he projects that. I think that's not actually true. We all have our different stress things and things like that. I'm sure many musicians feel like this. And he kind of mentions, you know, this is kind of like when you're doing a big, you know, you're presenting your paper or something like that. Or as Jerry says, April right now is on stage at Nassau doing a keynote, you know. So I think not everybody ends up with that peak and then that kind of depression is for him, it's actually depression and he goes through days or weeks of, you know, like, you know, now I don't have that thing. I was like so stressed out about it and, you know, went okay. You know, hey, Stacy. Hi, Stacy. I totally meant for this to be a takeover where we actually got work done. And I'm totally blowing it. Well, I was gonna ask just because I don't think I've, I mean, I think it's been a few weeks since I've been to one of these Tuesdays. Sessions, you know, where would my observation is that we do more weaving the world ops work on this call and less on tomorrow's weaving the world ops. The role of the call has kind of switched in my head, at least. Are there, I mean, in your fantasy of the work that we would do on this call, what was it that we were working on talking about? Hey, Mark, I'm trying. We were just about to talk about what we would be working on if we were actually working on something. And I was gonna go off on that day at Gresham, but now I'm embarrassed because there's an adult in the room. Also, just if you guys didn't know, Jerry was called away at the last minute. Oh, yeah, yeah. I kind of assumed everybody knew that, but yeah. Sorry, Mark, I don't mean to call you an adult. I apologize. But you always seem like more put together and more professional and more, I don't know, more smart than I do and get a little bit. And Pete, I will take as a compliment the fact that there wasn't an adult in the room. Mark, I'm sorry. Really? I don't know how I should take it, but oh well. I think it's maybe an order of things. I think each of us could be considered an adult, depending on, you know, but. On which order we showed up in. Yeah. And how juvenile, the combination we walked in on was. Yeah, exactly. How much I was getting with procrastinating. Don't tell me I've been playing with my DMX install. Awesome. Very interesting. They're using Neo4j as a data store in San Lucin. I didn't realize it was Neo4j underneath. I should have. So DMX, this conversation comes out of Sotella. And if you were in the, if you wanted to, you could just go back in the flotilla channel a little bit. We're talking about graph visualization. But basically somebody finally did a serious. Not a serious, but you know. Real. A real, yeah. An adult. Yeah, and I was wondering if that's what you were referring to with adult in the room as in I'm actually starting to play with it in reference to DMX. It's it's a topic map database. Basically, it's built atop Neo4j, but it's the data model is full topic map, which means each relationship is accessible, has roles, yadda, yadda, yadda. So look at the DMX that read the docs. It's not very hard to install. I've installed it on my machine, but it's being a bit bitchy to configure because I don't see any affordance to create users. They say, oh, user LDAP servers. We installed the LDAP server on my machine. Yay. And I'm not getting DMX to talk to my LDAP server yet. So that's why I was a bit late. I'm still fiddling with that conflict. This is this is where you need a Docker compose thing. Absolutely don't want to do this with Docker. Well, somebody else, the thing to do is when somebody else has set up the Docker compose for you, right? Once it's like three or four services, you know, OK. But anyway, it's still I'm pretty happy with the fact that it works. It works not that badly. I need to play with the database a bit more. It seems to leak all kinds of information, which I'm not happy about. I need to restrict like, oh, let me show you the file system of the host of the host machine, but that's because I'm in as admin, right? So I'm not going to give my admin credentials, hence getting the user system to work with appropriate permissions before I start getting you all to play on it. Sounds awesome. Thanks for thanks for starting to set it up. I should probably look in the matter most, but all I'm getting is a wrapper data 50 on Google. OK, as I said, look at the mix read the docs.io. Chat. Oh, yeah. The heck and he wouldn't hurt. Yeah, I could put it there. Well, I just made one. So. And there's there's another there's a DMX home. What is it again? Something really obvious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. DMX, but yeah. So anyway, now there's a DMX conversions dot com and I'm still working on making securing stuff. So please don't hit it too hard. You know, it's yeah, that's it. That's a little bit obscure, actually. Yeah, that's the one. And by the way, it's open source. It's the second I'll give you that URL. It's like it absolutely requires Java 8. Whatever. Oh, that means log for Jay. That probably means log for Jay. Yes, it doesn't. I don't see log for Jay in the jars. Doesn't mean it's not there. Could have been wrapped in. But yes, that's definitely a concern. Stacy, I'm lost too. Just so just so you we are nerding out a tiny bit. There's a exploit in a file that's used by many, many, many Java programs that does logging. And that's the big news among. People who pay attention to software is that you know, right when you think, oh, you know, you can relax for the holidays. It's like we have to look at all of our systems and find out, you know, if basically, you know, they can be taken over by the eight year olds who can click a button, you know, exploit this server and basically take over the complete server and all the all the software on it wreak havoc in the world. So so then there's an exploit that takes advantage of that whole that goes in and all it does is patch the whole. Exactly. It's kind of funny. So so then I and I just put it in chat. Somebody on Twitter said, by the way, if you're checking your system and it's patched, make sure you're the one who patched it because the exploit that patched it may have been friendly or it may not have been friendly. And you might go, oh, it's it's OK. I don't have to upgrade anything. And somebody's upgraded it for you and left the hole for themselves, not anybody else. So I don't see any trace of Lug4j in any of the. Libraries. No, Lug4j is not at all in that stack. You'll be happy to know I did have a Fuziki install with an old Lug4j, which I updated. I had a boost installed with an old Lug4j, which I don't know how to update. So I just disabled it for now. Yeah, this was a fun morning. And I found a DMX Docker container. Oh, yeah, sure. Well, so you get to trust it. Yeah, good question. I would probably trust it. Yeah, it's written by Juergen, that DMX system. So Blaine Juergen knows what he's doing or she. But then the real thing you want is a Docker compose thing that's got that's got the LDAP server and whatever else it needs. OK, let's come back from Techland. And so I had I do have kind of a gem thing I wanted to talk about. Unfortunately, it is actually kind of a tech thing, too. But maybe should we talk other other OGM topics on top of mind for anybody? Not yet. Again, I'm putting together a what is it? IdeaGraph, Memex, Intelligence Amplification Meetup on Saturday. And I have been Stacey and Mark Antoine. You might have missed the earlier theme of the call, which was procrastination. There's a Facebook group that we used to meet on, but nobody nobody's on Facebook anymore. So I'm not sure how many people are going to show up. Nobody's connecting. But yeah, I'm putting a Zoom call for the first time and managing your Zoom call. So yeah, it's just. You have some place. Well, so you should do at channel somewhere on MatterMost and you should also post to the OGM mailing list. OK, that's a good idea. I don't know. It's probably good enough for OGM. Yeah. Anyway, that's it. I've got tons of work, tons of reading, and I have to reread essentialism. I think that's essential. So. Or get coaching from Stacey. They're like, OK, focus on this. Oh, I would love to do that. It's so great telling, you know, like I'm. This is my nature and I'm sure you all could understand. Men in your life don't usually like that. No, no. Somebody that wants that is awesome. There's two points of. Of at least knowledge that I've come across. One is the Chinese saying, Mary, a smart woman, a woman smarter than you and does do everything she tells you to and that you will have the happiest life. The other is I was, you know, I'm I'm an inventor and I'm I'm a finder. I'm all over the place. And I was talking to a partner who I shared an office with. And I said, yeah, sure. I would love to be managed, you know, manage me. And he goes, you want to be my bitch? And I go, sure. We'll talk later, Stacey. Thanks. Anyway, I'm here waking up and listening mostly, but that's what I'm attempting to do in an OGM, a kind of area, not specifically connected to OGM. Stacey is doing a bang up job of helping to manage getting stuff done. Thank you, Stacey. Thank you. Um, my my OGM thing is actually inspired by a conversation Stacey and I had. I keep wanting to do this and sooner or later, maybe, maybe it will happen to have a community currency for OGM and I would do it with a cryptocurrency, which is probably the third or fourth best way to do it. It's not the best way to do it. The best way to do it from Michael Linton, the person himself. Uh, is is actually to use a really simple ledger program that basically let's you, you know, um, ledge is to make it very bad of that. Keep track of, you know, credits and debits, however, however that goes. But I really want to do it with crypto instead. So then the tricky part is I don't want to do it proof of stake. I wanted it for work. Sorry, I don't want to do it for work. I want to do proof of stake. Um, so all the easy to create tokens, I think, are on Ethereum and not on something else like Tesos or or Cosmos or I don't. And just today I saw somebody, Solano might be it might be something. I don't know how to collect, but anyway. So there's a trade off. I'm inspired a little bit by our friends at Good Workhouse who had the experience of kind of a related thing for them, a sibling thing for them. They had a physical gallery in Venice, California. And before NFTs were big, I don't know how this happened that they decided to do this, but before NFTs were big, they were giving NFTs to anybody who came in the shop. Um, uh, I, this, this makes sense. If you're thinking in Venice mindset that you would just go, Oh, I think these people wandering around the boardwalk need an NFT in their life because they don't have enough crazy stuff going on. This is such a, you know, Hollywood, West Hollywood, Venice, Santa Monica kind of thing. It actually kind of makes sense there. But only if I put my, put my brain in Santa Monica. Um, anyway, so one of the people involved was explaining this to me. And he's like, okay, so I was there, Pete, when literally you kind of grabbed somebody off the sidewalk by the lapel and like, you want to, you want to be in web three. You want to be decentralized. You want an NFT. Let me see your phone. I'm going to put men a mask on it for you. And you know, that's just insane talk, right? And I'm starting a collection of cartoons where people, obnoxious web three people come over and say, you want to be part of web three. You want to be decentralized because it's, it's a, it's a trope. You know, it's a meme. It's, it's, it's funny as hell and sad as hell. Um, but anyway, um, you know, sometime later, not too long later, a month or two or something like that, um, crypto Venetians, the, they were little cartoons of, uh, Venice beach bums, basically on the boardwalk, very, very low pixel, you know, very low res, um, and cute and a series like crypto apes or whatever. Um, uh, a couple months later, they're on the market. They're going for $10,000 each, right? So you happen to walk in, you know, your beach bum walking or, uh, socialite or whatever, or artist or a surfer walking into a random art gallery in Venice beach. And they give you this thing that looks like a piece of junk. And later you find out that you could sell it for $10,000. It's like, okay, well, that's interesting. Um, so the part of this that inspires me is not so much the, and it's worth $10,000 part because that's, that's, um, a little bit of speculation, a lot of luck and all that kind of stuff that part. They don't care about too much. The really interesting part for me was that they were successful in giving away a bunch of digital NFTs before people knew what they were. And, you know, before these are regular people off, literally off the street. Um, so coming back to OGM, um, I think many of us would like to have a community currency. Um, I think many of us wouldn't like it to be a cryptocurrency, but I'm kind of inspired by, uh, that art gallery that, you know, maybe it's doable at least and, and might be a good thing. So basically why? It's a really good question. Um, it's actually a really good question. Thanks, Mark. Um, the thing I was hoping to, to get was for somebody to say, Pete, just do it the way Michael Linton says it's, that makes a lot more sense. I don't want to do it Michael Linton's way because it's pedestrian boring, even though it's, it's better. I know it's better. Um, the reason to have a community currency is because a couple of things. Um, uh, uh, put yourself in the context of Stacy and I talking about weaving the world ops or put yourself in the context of a flotilla call. Um, uh, Stacy said something really interesting, uh, where she said, it would be cool if participants in these little work groups like build OGM or flotilla or weaving, weaving the world, maybe they could get something of value just for showing up, um, kind of like, and, and I said, kind of like a universal basic income. And it's like, yeah, that's actually kind of interesting. Um, imagine we had an OGM currency or actually, I think it's not an OGM currency. I call it plaques. Um, I think it's super OGM, um, which is one of the things we could discuss. But, um, uh, the big thing is, uh, Jerry could say, you know, okay, I've got some money to pay for weaving the world ops. I've got some money to pay for, you know, somebody to spend four hours transcribing our video as kind of an experiment on, you know, many people's parts. Um, I have, you know, um, I, I, I, Jerry could say something like I need some art, art done. I need some, uh, some web design done. Um, you know, graphic design for a website. Uh, I need, um, uh, Stacy's, uh, Stacy's example was, uh, it would be really cool if we had, uh, some, some people that actually did, um, uh, I'm going to say editing, but I don't mean, um, moving text around. I mean, actually improving the flow of text, um, and, you know, up, up leveling the, the, um, the intelligence of, of a piece of text. There's a bunch of stuff that we could be doing and we actually kind of do for each other. Um, but we also, we, I bump into, we, we all bump into the, well, it would be nice to at least kind of keep score a little bit, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be like, you know, dollars and cents and, and, you know, uh, I got to account for every minute or something like that. If it would be super cool if it were a little bit more flexible than that, a little bit more qualitative, a little bit more friendly, um, a little bit more goofy, maybe, um, which is where I'm maybe going with my cryptocurrency wish. But, um, but if we had a community currency, um, and then especially if it were a super OGM thing, uh, you know, uh, maybe we could get, uh, somebody from MediCogs to participate in an OGM thing. Um, even though they kind of live in MediCogs, you know, they wouldn't mind coming over to OGM and, you know, um, like my daughter used to do, uh, when she was nine years old playing, um, uh, Animal Forest, um, shoot the, uh, Nintendo game on your Switch. Um, uh, she, she would go over to other people's, uh, games and mother lawns and, and she would get paid a little bit for that. Um, and then she would buy cool stuff with it and then they, they would have their lawn kept up. So, you know, Tom Nook was not, not upset at them or whatever. Um, if we'd had a little bit of, you know, back and forth, uh, social economy, it would be a good and wonderful thing. Um, and then the part of the experiment is how do you make it so it's not, uh, capitalist dungeon, uh, like we've invented in the real world, you know, how do you do, um, a friendly social economy, um, with somebody keeping a little bit of score or maybe a lot of score. Um, I, I don't think that the amount of the scoreiness is the big thing. It's actually the social gestures that you want to kind of, um, uh, invent around the, the exchanges. Um, you know, it'd be a good thing to experiment with. So that's, that's the why. And getting back to what you said about, um, good works, which I haven't watched that yet, but that's the reason to give it away first. You know, that's the, you know, then there's that engagement. Um, yes. And, um, it's, it's also a bootstrap thing. Um, uh, once you have a little bit of, of economy going and you get the rules of the game, um, you can go to, you can go to them, you can go to a market where you can say, Hey, maybe you don't know us very well, but we've got a, we've got a social good project here. And if you, um, I basically, you can, you can help fund, uh, your, your good work by selling some of your, your tokens to somebody for real dollars. Right. Um, uh, if you, if you get somebody to buy a bunch of tokens for $10,000, then, and you start to get a market starting to become liquid. So now, now I know why I'm not so much interested in Michael Linton's ledger thing. It's a, the thing I'm interested in is, um, um, a, uh, complementary currency, a local exchange economy, but also with connection to fiat. Um, so then somebody who earns, um, uh, you know, uh, a thousand Plex tokens, which are worth $50 in, in us dollars, um, they might say, well, I'm going to keep half of those because, um, because I want to spend them and I want to keep them inside the, the community, but I'm also going to cash half of them out and, you know, and pay for, for this week's, um, uh, meals or something like that. Right. Um, so I guess thank, thank you for walking me around to why I want to connect this, why I want to do crypto and why I want, and, and that I want to connect it to fiat. Um, so this is, you know, and, and you can bootstrap up from, let's do a little experiment with our friends to let's do this a little bit more real. So where good work house is now, um, tomorrow, I think it is tomorrow's, uh, they're doing a launch of their community project where they said they've bootstrapped a couple stops and they also had an in real life, um, IRL, um, kind of like a next gen rotary club, uh, in Santa Monica, Venice, where they were already doing good stuff a couple years ago, um, before the, before the pandemic. Um, so they've got a social club that does good stuff, you know, for the community. Um, the project that they've gotten going now is let's raise, um, 250 ETH, uh, which is equal to about a million dollars. Let's take that, that money and, uh, do, um, reasonably sized grants to Haitian artists. I think they can afford about 60 grants. Um, and they're going to be no strings attached, you know, here's a grant, here's a few thousand dollars, um, worth of ETH, which they can turn into whatever they want, um, to, to, to do you, you know, you do you, um, uh, we've recognized you as an artist, we want you to be an artist in residence, uh, virtually. And we want you to do some cool stuff. Um, and if you had a couple thousand dollars, uh, we hope that it would make your cool stuff easier to do. Um, so they're taking half of the, the million dollars or so raised, um, and putting it directly to grants. They're putting another 10% of that to, um, a multi-sig wallet, uh, for those artists in residence to distribute further into the Haitian, um, environment. Um, and then, uh, they're keeping 40% of it to do their operations of that stuff and then to run some of their other good stuff, you know. So, um, uh, they've been doing, you know, they've been bootstrapping for a year, um, uh, it's not lost on me that OGM has been bootstrapping for, you know, a year and a half or whatever. Um, and I'm, I'm a little bent out of shape that, um, you know, OGM, uh, OGM has the potential to do this kind of stuff and we're failing to achieve it. It is maybe a harsh way to think about it, but it feels that way to me sometimes. I really like that, um, you mentioned in real life and then add an IRL as if we didn't understand it. Wait a second, Dave. Um, the friend we have, uh, it's for our viewers. Yeah, I just, Jesse, the friends, uh, you know, the friend that Jerry and I have, uh, over at Good Work, uh, he's always saying he's, he's, he's got a notch ahead of the lingo, right? And so I've, I've said IRL to some people in the OGM sphere and it's like, what's that? Um, so the other interesting thing, just watching him do his stuff on Discord, um, he says IRL or URL. So where I would say web, he says URL because it matches IRL well. And it's like, I like that. I'm going to steal that. Michael, you're muted. Sorry, I just said, unreal life. It's even better. Yes. Unreal Engine. Yeah. So Pete, you, all this stuff, I, I, I understand, but the thing that stirs me the most is the, you know, next to the last thing you said about, huh, here's an example of people getting stuff done in the world. That's interesting. And as OGM, you know, it's, it's not quite, um, as interesting as that and you would like it to be. Um, now mapping that problem to mapping that maybe not problem, but opportunity or, or aspiration to cryptocurrency is not within my, it's not, you know, certainly not my central interest, um, but, you know, willing to go along and play with the community that is developing, although, um, to kind of understand the community. I mean, we all see each other a couple of times a week and there's few others, um, there are a few others, but, but few rather than, you know, 10 more, which would probably be, you know, a good quorum about 15 people. We can kind of decide, hey, let's coalesce and choose a project, work on that project, design roles. Um, I, you know, we're small enough so that we can basically see other people, you know, doing that work and kind of like give them beams from our hearts or, you know, big smiles or what have you. Um, and I don't see or even different feel how cryptocurrency could add to the kind of coalescence that you're looking for because I'm looking for leadership, um, plans, um, goals, objectives, time frames. Um, and, and in a sense, we're playing and that's good. And, you know, I love how Kiko lab, they said, you know, we don't want to be a wine bar. We don't want everybody to show up and just go, man, back and forth. Um, and I agree with that. And, you know, that's, you know, I'm not here to, you know, talk about, you know, how sleepy I am. Even though I'm fine with, with, you know, social fatic communication, um, perfectly fine. Um, could you respond to that? I mean, I, I, I hope I'm sure. Yeah, it makes, makes plenty of sense. Um, fatic is one of my favorite words, by the way. Um, uh, for odd reasons. Um, I'm part, what's that? What word, please? I couldn't fatic, what does it mean? P-H-A-T-I-C, it means, um, taking over behavior. Basically, if we connect, um, it's, it's kind of like, it's kind of like social grooming, actually. Um, it's the little, it's the, little noise, noise stuff that, that isn't that, that you listen to a conversation and you hear people making little gestures, little vocal gestures, little words of encouragement and stuff like that. It's not part of the con, it's not part of the content. It's actually a wrapper around the content. It, it, it has the function of maintaining the communication. It's kind of a protocol acknowledge. We're, we're communicating. We're, it's, it's, it's the social grease aside from the content of the communication. Um, Mark and Chuan and I are in similar wavelengths because that makes a ton of sense to me. And, and I've, I, I've actually explained it to people back in the old days when we all used to use modems and they would do that whistle, the, the, you know, the whistle sound when you, when you got on the internet. Um, the, the, the, the literal like bits and bites of that. Um, it sounded like white noise because it kind of is noise. And modems used to use a noise signal to keep the channel open, basically. And then they would wrap the data on top of the noise. So if you just send the data, um, it gets, you know, weird things happen to it. But if you make a lot of noise and then wrap signal into that, you actually get the, the signal cross, which is now I've overgeeked it. Um, but anyway, fatic is the same, same thing. It's like carrier signal for, for modem. Um, I say, hello, there's no content. And unfortunately, when you ask, how are you often, you don't expect content. How's your day? Oh, it's great. You are talking about the, the nods, the smiles, the, the quizzical looks, the go on, the stuff that keeps the conversation going, keeps the conversation going, keeps it on the rails, keeps the person knowing that you're receiving that we're still in communication. Yeah. Yep. Now I forgot the sentence that it was used in. Um, Mark was talking about, you know, I, I forget if it was because I got distracted by the word itself. I have a story about fatic. Um, but Mark was saying basically, you know, there's, so there's the stuff that, that we all do in these calls. And that's kind of the interesting part of it, right? It's interesting that we're being human together. Pete, why the heck would you try to tokenize, you know, this and, and a token isn't going to, the other thing Mark said is a token isn't going to give us project plans or goals or, you know, work steps or any of that kind of stuff. Why, why would we do it? Um, uh, so, so one thing, Mark, um, uh, I, I think you, you described a fairly small set of people who would be interested and involved right in doing stuff because I'm, I'm saying, um, in the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, OGM calls, flotilla calls. I see Michael, Peter. You're looking at about 80% of, yeah, a few different people on Friday, but, um, so is that a good thing or about, or maybe a different thing? I can just say that that's too small of a, of a community to do it. And that's what I was trying to say is like if there was 15, that would be interesting. Um, and, and basically, you know, to, to segment and say, okay, here's one group that's going to split into three or five or, or seven or, or what have you to basically work in parallel on things. Um, I was just reminded, I was talking with Bob Horn, and I was hoping to invite him to this Memex Meetup because he's done a heck of a lot of work. And a lot of the people who would come to Memex Meetups for typically recent graduates from Stanford or MIT. Um, and I'm not sure if I'm reaching them or not. So I'm not sure if they're going to be here, but, but basically they, they don't know a great deal of the history that exists that was, you know, worked on in the seventies and eighties about, um, how to build an argument map. Um, successfully and Bob Horn is, you know, somebody who insists on full complete sentences as nodes rather than words like happiness linked with a line to cooperation. Um, and he asked me or he suggested that rather than have him talk and have to prepare something that I provide an interviewer for him. And we kind of ticked through our heads about who could interview successfully, except for, you know, not me because I'm kind of going to be busy during the event. And we thought of all these people and go, no, no, they have their own thing going. Um, no, no, he has his own project. No, no, she has her own project. And that stuck in my head. It's like, huh, you know, yes, I have my own project. Yes, Mark Antoine has his own project. Um, and it takes, you know, and with me, I also have a part-time job. So it's, it's kind of difficult to, um, give more sometimes than, than the, you know, time that we spend together, you know, at seven in the morning, but sort of this for me. Um, and I'm trying not to, I'm trying to bring all this all together and basically say, oh, yes, 15 would be nice. But, oh, yes, I'm not criticizing that there's five of us here. Six of us of Jerry were here. Um, I'm observing that phenomenon. Yep. I think 15 people in an in-group is, is probably still not enough. It would be enough to like force the exercise, but it wouldn't be very fun or very interesting unless we were all economists. Um, what next group are you, are you thinking of? Well, so that's so real quickly, it becomes or, uh, uh, super OGM. Um, uh, so, um, uh, whoever we know from Kiko Lab, um, uh, uh, Vincent and, and his many connections and friends, um, OFC, uh, Metacogs. Um, and so partly having a, having a multi-use token, having a fungible token, um, that's not, not tied to a small group, um, but is actually intergroup, um, is part of the experiment. Um, and, and it's a way of engaging with other, other groups, right? You could go over to Metacogs and not everybody in Metacogs is going to be interested, but one or two people you could say, I would love to pay you, um, a hundred plaques to come over and do blah, right? I would love to have a better understanding of the experiment with that one notion of supra. Yeah. And I, and that's, that's just part of it. I think, you know, the other part of it is playing around with understanding value and value exchange and, and things like that. Um, yes, Stacy. I was also, if I could just bring the human part of it because I, you know, I watch really carefully and we always talk about trust and I do know a lot of people, especially that are younger in their careers, that, you know, we've kind of been taught, you know, don't give away our good ideas. Someone will take it from you, all those kinds of things. And when you're working on something, at least if you're getting some sort of a token, you feel that if anything is going to come a bit, you're in on the ground floor. So I think that there is a big emotional impact of having a community currency. That's, that's a really a community currency and something that might appreciate, I guess. Um, it's a really good observation, Stacy, and it's also one of the, it's a superpower and also a super bad thing because it's, because it's really easy. It crosses once, once you, um, there's a thing that a lot of people are dealing with in the social good crypto space. And also the social, well, the crypto space, crypto and like SEC space, Securities Exchange Commission. As soon as it looks like something where people are either gambling or speculating, then, you know, it's spec it's wonderful for, um, for a young person to get involved and save some of their tokens from their activity. And lo and behold, later, find out that it's worth a lot. Crypto Venetians, right? Um, it's a cool thing that a bunch of people went into a random art gallery in Venice, ended up being able to, you know, buy that really cool surf board they wanted, mom, because of it. Um, but when you have people who are just doing it for that reason, um, it's sour. It also turns bad and negative real fast, right? Let me give you like a simple example. Let's say so, you know, because Mark mentioned a lot of people have their own things going on. A lot of those things going on are people who speak for a living or are teaching something. So let's say for argument's sake, for me showing up, which I would want to do to support them anyway, and I'd want to learn. Let's say I also get one token. I can then like accumulate my tokens and maybe I'd go to you, Pete, and say, I need help with this. Now you would probably do it for me for free anyway. But how much nicer is it and easier for me to say I have these to give you? So I just think there's so many benefits that they're so little. We don't notice them, but they're important. Reclaiming reclaiming money as a social thing rather than capitalism, I think, is really good. I was about to thank both you, Pete and Stacey, for being patient and helping me understand this and then reclaiming money. I mean, I've been playing in my mind with community currency, community value, community cohesion, community resilience, community expansion, community contraction. I mean, what are the actual values that OGM is hoping to build, which not only are individual virtues, but small group virtues, big, small group virtues, big group virtues, global. Oh, shit, we're burning the planet let's change your behavior virtues. And is there a line from from one to the other? And how does currency, you know, changing money work in that? And, you know, I'm still I'm listening and I hope not to do real conversations. And it's coming time to aid. But but thank you for helping me understand. I have a question just that that is kind of existential, just about, you know, currency and how how one can keep any currency from, you know, devolving into dynamics of I mean, you know what you said, Stacey is beautiful. And at the same time, there's okay now. I know I mean, if let's say we were all aware of the transactions that are going on between us, which might not be I don't know how we set it up. But, you know, oh, I know that Pete has, you know, more community currency right now because, you know, he did that thing for Stacey. And I need some community currency because I want to do this project that I don't have enough for. So I'm going to go to Pete, because I know Pete needs this service to say, will you do it for this? And, you know, I mean, it's just going to be a marketplace, right? I mean, potentially. And not that it isn't among a bunch of people who have like minds and, and higher purpose. But if we were doing the same thing with, you know, if we if we had, you know, UBI in this group, and we were receiving fiat currency and then trading it around and then pulling some of it out and using it to buy groceries. I mean, how how is it? Intrinsically, you know, its form is different than money. But how does the dynamic it creates not be a market scarcity? You know, dynamic? It's it's a really good question. I had the same kind of thing, like, so great, we're just, you know, we're we're recapitulating the rise of capitalism, you know, let's let's wind back to, you know, 3,000 years ago or something like that when when money was like safe and good. And then, you know, Bunker, a table in the market square, little exchange tokens that represent what we're going to trade to each other. I think the thing is, it's just part of it is intentionality and part of it is is observing. If you if you take it out of let's do the same experiment with with USD, right? That's and and then everybody like collapses into OK, well, I guess I've got to optimize my, you know, rate rate return on investment and, you know, if it's a if it's a different token, I think we can be a little bit more circumspect about it because you get to play with the value that the exchange value to fiat, right? It's like when you start, it doesn't have any exchange value, right? Because nobody nobody has put any fiat in the system. You can regulate kind of with different monetary policy. You can you can regulate, you know, flow of fiat in and out and inflation rates and that kind of stuff. So you can actually make it just just by like some simple economic manipulation that I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean it in a technical way. You can actually change the monetary policy. So people tend to keep their money in the system or they tend to like blow it away and, you know, and you lose all the value or whatever. So I and it just takes it takes you out of the mindset of dollars, you know, and puts you in a different mindset where you can play a little bit better experiment a little bit more. I think a big part of it is intentionality. What do we want to have happened with this currency that, you know, we screwed up with with fiat? Sissy, this is that because I don't know what about it? You had if part of the rule was you had to spend a certain amount within the system with that. Yeah, I would that. I don't know how it would work offhand, because I don't do economic system in my head. But yes, that's that would be a thing to play with. Right. Another thing to play with is your money. Your money gets worth less out over time. Like if you're just sitting on it, it slowly evaporates. And if you exchange it, it doesn't evaporate. So you can keep the money flowing by doing having a rule like that. Right. Well, the reason I the reason I say giving it away is because there is something really powerful that happens when you give stuff away. And it builds and it grows. But that's actually something that you're more likely to do with the self-depreciating money, the self-depreciation what it was describing is a mechanism that's being used, that's been advocated. It's a kind of built in inflation to avoid this orization and avoid accumulation of money and to keep the money flowing. So if your money depreciates, you'd better spend it and then maybe you'd better give it. I mean, that's and that's interesting, Stacy, you're right in and then we could have interesting mechanisms whereby the value kind of resets if you give it or something like that, it would have more money as a gift than as a spend. But maybe we could make it. You know, that it's the money that you spend for charitable reasons is produces a benefit. Sorry, I'm making a tax deductibility. I can't come up with the analogy exactly. I like it. I have a quick question, Pete, about the good. Good something else. Good workhouse. Good workhouse. I will look them up on the web. You said they have an event coming up soon as an example to kind of watch these processes as implemented by other folks. What would you suggest I poke my attention towards? So here's the web page. Their their event is called ground baking. And that that'll give you the basics. Let me take 20 or 30 seconds and look, there's there's actually a really good presentation. And I think it's I think it's public now. So I wonder I shouldn't probably try to this. So I'm looking at the community discord. And as I understand it, it's not quite a public discord. And so I don't I don't feel comfortable inviting people to it. You can get yourself invited to it. But I I guess I'm not enough of a community participant. I'm I'm a kind of a friend and advisor a little bit. And then not quite a community participant. But anyway, I don't see a password on this. So this notion page has one thing on it, which is the crowdfund deck, which is a really good look at where they've been and where they're going. And makes me makes me really sad to look at this and think of where we've gotten to with OGM with probably a lot more. They've well, not not to diminish what they've done. They put a lot of work in to get to this point. But we've put a lot of work in and we don't have a nice presentation like this to show. And we don't have and we're not raising, you know, 250 East to to give a bunch away. I just wanted to point out in term and in linking Pete, what you said about Santa Monica, something that maybe some of us know about. It's called a hole in space. It's a 1980 artwork by Santa Monica artists. Kit Galloway and Sherry Rabinowitz and they basically stuck these big video walls in the camera and they basically created Zoom in 1980 and they didn't really tell anybody. They just connected New York to LA and people would show up and kind of like try to, you know, there was sound and they could like speak to each other. And then eventually because, you know, we still had things called telephones that you picked up and you paid long distance charges for. People show up and basically say, hey, be here at this time and we'll talk to each other. And so all these people came together and then, you know, saw each other and talk to each other and know that. What is that? Forty one years ago is now what we're talking on right now. Yeah. So it's time. That's a beautiful mark. Thank you. It's a good connection. One of the things this conversation has helped me understand is that I actually know a lot about this. I think I don't know very much about community currency or or monetary stuff, but I actually do. And so. In talking to people, it does this both a disservice for me to go, oh, well, of course, you know, all about community currencies because it's like, yeah. Which brings me back to my question that I could you very simply for those of me that doesn't know the difference between workstake and what was it? Proof of work and proof of stake. Yeah. Yes, let me do that real quick. And I'm going to also pop the Wikipedia link into Ithaca ours. Ithaca, New York was one of the one of the really early experiments with a community currency. And it's the kind of classic one. The way to think about a crypto token or, you know, kind of a token is it's not unlike. It's funny, I want to I want to say Federal Reserve and the Gold Center and all that kind of stuff and all that made sense like 40 years ago or 50 years ago. And now it's like what the Federal Reserve called. I don't know what you're talking about. But anyway, and maybe it's a little bit distracting to think of it that way anyway. But but basically what there's there's a cloud of value called Bitcoin, right? And there's a cloud of value called Ethereum and a cloud of value called Tezos. So basically you need a way to prove that you own part of that cloud of value. And Bitcoin, the first big cryptocurrency, the way you prove that was you basically you kind of in a way paid for the value, I guess. So the crypto part of it is just a bunch of math that helps you do the proof. But then you actually also need to have a reason to have gotten that value. And for Bitcoin, it's just basically it's just I had my computer solving a mathematical puzzle for a long time. And so therefore I claim part of the the big cloud of value and it's called mining. Because it's kind of similar to if you spend a lot of time with pickaxes and and pans and stuff like that, you'd have gold, right? Kind of the same thing. It's kind of like Bitcoin was a big vein of gold and people can go in and just do a lot of work and with their computer and get some of the value out of it, mine it. And that's proof of work. And that's proof of work as opposed to proof of stake, which is proof of stake is proof of work is is bad or good, depending on on how you're looking at it. Proof of work can be bad because you have to run your computer hot for a long time to solve all the puzzles. And you have a kind of a competition if if more and more people do it to make it fair, the puzzles get harder and harder and the puzzles have gotten extremely hard and they take a lot of computing power. Computing power takes electricity, electricity takes burning coal usually or burning, you know, or hydroelectric or volcanoes or, you know, whatever. So proof of work can be bad for the environment. So people invented proof of stake where it's like I'm not going to prove that I should own a chunk of the value with work. I'm going to. Stake, I'm going to lock up some of my some of my value. I'm going to take some value that I've got from US dollars or some other currency. And I'm going to say the value cloud is made bigger by me putting a piece in it and leaving it there. I'm not going to touch it, but then I get some of the reward for helping the ecosystem, the the value cloud, the cloud have basically. So it sounds like putting your money in a bank and getting interest. It's yeah, it's a lot like a CDA. Yeah. Thank you. And sometimes you yeah, yeah. There's on top of that, there's also systems where you can can get actual interest. Staking is a little bit different. You get staking rewards, it's called. But. And the reason you have to have something something big, like a bunch of US dollars or a bunch of CPU time is because if you didn't do it that way, everybody would get it, you know, everybody would say, well, I want, you know, 50 percent of all the Bitcoin things and I just deserve it because I'm cute, right? So. Making it turn turn into physical something where it's not just that I'm cute. I've also spent, you know, 100,000 hours of CPU time. So then I get this this value, right? If everybody competes basically for a piece of the value by saying I'm staking a big chunk of value for me in this you know, into this cloud. So all the all the cool, a lot of the cool innovation has gone on Bitcoin and especially Ethereum for smart contract stuff. And it's all proof of work still. Ethereum is trying really hard to get over proof of stake and it'll make it at some point, but. But there's a second generation or subsequent generations of tokens set out of proof. The whole proof of work thing is silly and let's do proof of stake instead. And so there's a bunch of cool stuff going on proof of stake, but not too many. Not not the right kind of infrastructure for community currency too much. Or it's it's there. It's not as easy to use as an Ethereum one. Just for completeness, not that anybody here cares. The the way I would do this on an Ethereum chain on the Ethereum chain would be to have an ERC 20 token. It's called basically it's kind of the functional equivalent of like a dollar and there's somebody's already written the code for that and actually many people have written the code for that and I could just grab the code and use it. It's a little bit that Tezos has F a 1.2. I think it is. Which has the same. Structural stuff, but there isn't there's much less code written for it. Thank you. I'm going to drop off and see you around mark that work can happen here. Good to see everybody. Yes, sorry, I was a bit distracted. I'm still concerned with my DMX setup. And yeah, please. So I just yes, I saw I'm so give me give me a username password. I'll add it to my LDAP. I'm actually now adding an LDAP UX. That's when that's as one does, Casey. I will activate my phone about later later talking with you. Thanks. Bye bye. Mark is what you're doing. Neophyte accessible or is it is it take? So there's it's documented. You know, it's not. This is this is just I'm installing someone else's system. They documented it. It's just what I'm doing is making sure that we have private spaces so we can all play with it without screwing up one another's data on the one hand. And hopefully we're able to connect our personal data as well, hopefully. And that's why I'm going through the trouble of making this multi user setup, which is not as trivial as it should be. Well, I would like to be part of the experiment. So if I am a user, not a username, password, and I'll add you. OK, go in the matter most, maybe connect to the matter most. Should we should we keep using flotilla or switch to maps mapping or? I mean, this this has to be the end because you're giving me your past password. You're choosing for that system, right? Maybe he's one of those, you know, crazy hippie guys that's like passwords for everybody, man. I'm yeah, I'm I'm I'm a bit serious about passwords. I'm like, oh, or you can also email me a GPG encrypted password. So DM me a password is the low end of the scale, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the crappy version. I'd rather you GPG encrypted me. I'll give you my public key if you're interested. How about signal? Is it happy medium signals a perfectly happy medium? But yeah. I apologize for for dropping off before I had a technical issue. And I was really sad. I'm going to have to go back and look for reporting to to finish your proof of stake explanation because you are a good explainer. He said, yes, I agree. And thank you, Michael, because I'm glad it wasn't just me, I'd like to think a lot of people would want to hear the explanation. I mean, even when you've heard the explanation, you know, it's good to hear the explanation. But so, yeah, yeah, I think I'll have to re listen to that talk. Cha cha. Now you got now you got nothing, but no, no. It's like now. So it needs a thing where it doesn't highlight the speaker. It needs to highlight the person with the expression is about to say something, right? Because I'm trying to read Stacey's expression, I'm in gallery of you. So we're all kind of about the same size and I'm like, what's she going to say? What's like? No, it's sort of like it's sort of like, again, Michael mentioned like being cognizant that we're recording. And we're working off of passes. Yes. So. Sorry, that it just made me think of something somewhat unrelated, which was that I was doing a Pilates session over Zoom and I. I did something with my hand and it produced a a wave in the corner or a thumbs up or something like that, that I realized that Zoom has an automatic function to read your physical gestures. I don't know if it's going to do it. It was on a different device, but it must have been something that they added and I didn't realize it, but there could be you know, fatic reading. Yeah, that would be awesome. This person is taking a deep breath as if they're about to speak. Yeah. So I'm going to unmute them. Yeah. You can set your preferences for auto unmute and I'm not. I'm looking forward to it kind of. Or not. Yeah, actually, it's going to be really dorky for a while. Yeah. And then they don't probably get good. Yeah, that moment when you're yelling to your, you know, significant other in the other room that you realize you have to have your auto thing turned off or you're going to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I'm looking forward to is one of the big graphics companies. As as kind of a demo, it was actually real technology. Maybe they're trying to sell the technology, but they they figured out a way to like hyper compress video streams by by simulating them by making them virtual virtualizing them basically. So they they have a camera that recognizes your face and and takes it apart and and then they just send the facial expressions, you know, like the code for this facial expressions, and then they rebuild your face to, you know, on everybody else's screen. So sending the code for facial expressions is very small compared to all the pixels that you have to send to, you know, like get the look of the face. And then you can do other things like background removal or whatever right or fancy hats and classes. I would think it would also be great. I'm sorry. What what scares me about that is so like, I don't know if you just noticed two minutes ago, I had some strange facial expressions. Now, you don't know what that was. But what it actually was is first, I got something on my screen that said the call has been muted. So I started to tell you. And then I realized that I had a call coming in. So I had to just, you know, end the call. So the point I'm trying to make is. A computer is not going to know what I'm reacting to, only if somebody says, Stacy, what did you did you mean to say something? And then I could explain what happened. That's always my concern. So you're worried that the computer is going to misread your facial expressions and well, people do that too. People do that all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's partly why why Michael was bringing it up because of that. Tension between what the computer thinks it knows and what it should know and what we think it thinks it should know. Well, you could also have I mean, when you think about that. That notion that you're talking about, you could really strip down, obviously, to emoji level. Somewhere between actual video, real time video and a series of emojis that you're clicking on that say I'm listening and blah, blah, blah, but you're controlling that with facial expressions. Yeah. And you can just the way you can put up your your still photograph avatar, you could say, leave me on wrapped listening expression because I'm going to do something. But that's disruptive and going away. Yeah. Also, you know, allows for some cheating. Yep. That'll be the interesting part of it. Shoot, I've got to yell at the dog, you know, and the computer is going to like not not miss a beat, right? You're still looking like, oh, you know, while in the background, you're like. Set me on nod for other stuff to talk about. Have you guys talked lately about just one conversation that I think we were having? I don't remember. It was a Tuesday or a Wednesday conversation, but there was a conversation about what the. Sort of branding weaving the world and the idea of somebody doing text. I'm sorry. Fabric weaving graphic of some kind. And I had actually had some logo thoughts that I was playing with. But but wondered if if that had already the train had already left the station and there was something going on after that. No, at it, right? No, at it, right? Nothing's been decided. Correct? I feel like you would know better than me, but I nothing about it. Yeah, I don't know of anything. I mean, you know, Jerry could be way off and deep with somebody. He's not. The fabric thing reminds me of a really cool. Game design thing, which was not about fabric at all, but it had this really cute look. I thought I could find it quickly, but I guess I can't. Oh, here it is. This is in the. I guess I'll share my. In the in the space of things that don't look techie, even though they kind of are, um. These these I thought were really cool. This is for a game, some indie developers developing, but these are all renders. They're not, you know, they're not real wood. And so in the game, you can actually move everything and play with everything. It's really interesting. Look, yeah, more, much more tactile and much more, you know, feels like warm and inviting. Yeah, that was really cool. I'll put the link to that. I think I want to go back to. Pete, you and I were talking a little bit and. It was about figuring out like how much something costs per episode. And I said that maybe if we put everything all in together, we would see that. It divides up differently. And let's see if I could be clear on what I'm trying to say. OK, so Mark had mentioned earlier how everybody has their own thing. And if you could just imagine for a minute that OGM is like the School of Tomorrow and all these people, they have their own specialties, but they also have their own, you know, they're also a bunch of smart people that like to come in and they have different levels of knowledge on different things. But let's say there was one main structure, almost like the production company, and you can pay with your community currency to. Help all those other members, but in a way that becomes cheaper, because it's almost like it's almost like they're cooperative. And so if you're coming into the work station and you know you have a few hours of work, often what happens is because the social component is so strong, you're going to stay longer and you're going to do more. And the one thing that I think is kind like and I understand your frustration with other places. But what I'm thinking is that what OGM has a value is different than what other groups may have. And that is like a very diversified realm of expertise in different things. And getting the tech people and the people that are non-tech more integrated I think is really important. I don't know if that's making any sense, but it makes sense. And the frustration the frustration I've got is not so much that we haven't done anything, but that we've got so much potential that we're not taking, that we're not cap capturing. So you're right. OGM has got, you know, an interesting broad network and a lot of diversity. And we don't structure activities in a way that helps people express their creativity and express their, you know, ability to like work, you know, on whatever and things like that. So it kind of leaks out, you know, as a as an OGM person, I think this happens to me and I think it happens to a lot of people. It's like, well, you know, today I'm going to be doing, I'm going to be figuring out DMX, right? Or I'm going to be writing recent changes code for Massive Wiki or, you know, I'm going to be helping somebody learn how to use a crypto wallet or I'm going to be editing, you know, copy editing somebody's, you know, essay or something like that. Those are all things that I do and OGM as a container doesn't really have a container for that happening socially, right? So so yesterday I was on a call with Brian H. I can't I can't pronounce his last name and and Jerry. And, you know, he mentioned the phrase TV lineup, which is exactly how I look at some of these calls. And if not just these calls, but calls of our members were organized into almost like a TV station, I think that would be so helpful. And when I think of weaving the world, I'm hoping that that's what it's going to model. And, you know, that that's my hope. Which part of the TV lineup, the fact that it's all in one page somewhere or that. The fact that, well, I, you know, I could be wrong. I may be taking the meaning of what it meant for me. But the fact that it's all on one page, it's somehow connected. But then it goes off into different areas, but there's a place where like I want to be able to like wake up in the morning and turn on and say, oh, so there's going to be a call with Pete over here at 10 o'clock. But Michael's doing this over here, you know, and see where I want to stop in. For what it's where that doesn't change much week to week. We could do a better job of setting up, you know, what's going to happen on flotilla Friday or what's going to happen on massive wiki or what's going to happen on Thursday. Oh, jam. Right. But what I'm saying in terms of weaving the world. And when you talk about having a currency that can be used in other places, I'm also thinking about having people outside being able to come in to that lineup. Yeah. Just go ahead, Michael. Just gonna say it just struck me. Stacy is we were talking something. A little louder. Oh, sure. Can you hear me okay? Yes. Um, I I was just thinking back to a food co-op that I helped, you know, launch many, many years ago and the sort of inadvertent skills banking that ended up being involved in that. I mean, we're all there for the purpose of having a community food co-op and getting good food for good prices and our neighborhood and supporting local farmers and like that. But, you know, at a regular food co-op, you put in a certain amount of hours. Well, there are a few things. You contribute a stake of some kind at the beginning to help get things off the ground. And then you put in different kinds of hours. And some people are just, you know, bagging groceries and some people are doing this and that, you know, and I did a bunch of graphic design at the beginning because that was a thing that I could do. And the fact that we have so many skills in whatever we want to call the community, the world we're leaving, lowercase everything, but, you know, OGM, Flotilla, we name it, that I wonder if in the realm of community currency, there isn't some kind of skills, banking, exchange, and maybe I'm stating the obvious and maybe this is what you were thinking with our own community crypto. But somehow when Stacey, when you were just talking, it made me think like there are definitely people in this group that are good at things that I'm not that are, you know, of value to me, almost independent of the community and the community's efforts. And if we were able to sort of contribute and derive adjacent benefits within some, some sane limit, like, you know, we all say, okay, we're, you know, we're giving, we're setting up a stake in this thing by saying, okay, I'm donating or, I don't know what the term would be, but, you know, participating, but participating at, I'm pledging to participate to the tune of, you know, 200 hours over the course of this length of time. So nobody can, you know, corral me and say, hey, you've got to drop everything and spend the next week doing this thing for me, but that, that is banked. It's sort of like time banking. And we're able to, yeah, we're able to to weave together our skills in service of the community and potentially adjacent projects. I don't know. Community currency does that. Yeah. As long as we're dreaming. What? I was going to say as long as we're dreaming, I have one more, one more dream that I'd like. I would love for there to be an open zoom room at all times with at least one person just hanging out in there for anybody that just needs to talk. Just even if it's for five minutes, they got a bad call. They just need to speak. You know, they just want to talk. Because, and a lot of us help ours, you know, like we can heal ourselves just through talking, but we just need somebody to bounce it off of. And to me, that should be part of everyday life that there's always, you know, a community room that you could stop into. I like it. I mean, I think it's funny because we talked about that. You know, many, many months ago. When I hadn't been here long, I was like talking about the sort of. The, the Thursday meeting being like the. The very open. You know, like church, you know, we talked about, but also like the notion of. Like church and like, you know, 12 step programs or something. There's a sense that. That resources always there and how we functionally, whether it's a matter of most channel, which is pretty much always there for people. Or, or as you're saying, you know, you know, you know, you know, there's a real zoom room that you can drop in. And of course, the larger the group. Community gets to be the more likely you're going to find somebody else there. And, you know, maybe the commitment to somebody always being there is something the community currency without to support. So that like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, or people have set hours. Everybody agrees that, you know, I'm going to be. Alone in the zoom room. If there's nobody else there. For, you know. Two hours a month. And between us all, you know, it's always man. Or you could have two people there together. And this way at least you always have two people. There's something going on. Yeah. Yeah. So I think in a call when there's three of us, like this is very different. Then other, you know, other amounts. That's a big difference between two and three. Yeah. And I was looking at a clip. It was a call. I don't know how many of you, if either of you knew Michael Josephowitz. Neither one of you he's a really he was a really interesting man and I will share there's a one-on-one video with him in Sam Han. But without going into his story I was watching this clip and he was just talking about there should always be you know that the speaker, the listener and that goes back and forth but how important it is to have that observer there. And I fully fully fully agree. And I like being that role of the observer, you know, as well as the other roles but I think there always should be an observer. Going going back to TV lineup. Yeah, I wanted to do show and tell a little bit. Maybe just this one browser window. And say someone if this is the microphone. Yes, yes, that is him. Yes. There's there is a web page on open global mind calm, which is, you know, current projects under construction. So here's a TV lineup. So we also need more stuff. You know, for each one it would be nice to have the vision and the current activities, what help they need, what matter most channel life they hang out in with is the main contact pointed to their web page pointed to their go fund me or their their funding page. Vincent also kindly set up a calendar for GM on Trove. You can see right now there's one thing on it for till the Fridays and it's a little bit tricky. So each of these, the challenge that we ended up finding is that it's hard to keep stuff up to date, basically. There's a bunch of this kind of work that that we experimented with doing and haven't haven't figured out how to make it continue to happen. So another community currency to keep things up to date, you know, would be awesome. Similarly, a long time ago, a year ago, I guess, a year ago I set up an experiment on the OGM forum. Nobody uses OGM forum anymore but I actually created a few. I created a category called the GM marketplace to for us to exchange goods and services. So we had a couple things go back and forth. We had like three or four three, I think. Beep reporter actually did get sold, which was really cool. Although it didn't end up working out anyway but George poor and the free book didn't get a lot of. Yeah, I don't know 128 something. This is another interesting one, Bentley and Web and app development. And the other thing that, you know, OGM forum itself needed more. Well, I needed a few things one of them was actually it fell down when we didn't have enough of an OGM to make decisions about OGM actually. How did OGM start. Jerry said there's, there shall be open global mind. What about somebody else who was like, I feel like even, yeah, it started with Matt Sia, and I think maybe Hank, I forget. It started with, it started with Jerry and Matt and a few other people around that. It was actually in fairly private conversations I think and then, you know, Jerry, I think it was my it was actually all of them it wasn't just Jerry. You know this should be more open more public. I felt like there was one person who I saw what I don't know if it was the first meetings I was at which were six months in or, or going back and looking at some earlier recordings, but there was somebody who seemed fairly strong role in some early meetings. Who I'd never seen again. That sounds to me like Nancy White. That was a guy. I'll have to go back and look and see. Maybe it's somebody I now know but forgot didn't didn't know at that point and didn't shop for a while. Maybe it was actually Matt or Hank. My email history goes back to June 17 2020. Well, anyway, I think that we there are some great conversations in this community, and my TV lineup would be a talk show on every single every single hour there's some sort of talk show going on that I can plug into. And, you know, actually, one of the things that could be done facing that, I think, if the TV program. I mean sometimes my calendar is this. When I when I can make the time for it to be. It's like, you know, flotilla. It's like a collaborative tech alliance. Humane tech to center for humane tech, you know, like there's these events, new public there are these events that are all kind of around the same stuff but a program of when they all are so you can figure out G there's you know, there's there's a conflict with this week so you know maybe I'll, I'll skip my GM Thursday check in so I can be part of the like unfinished conference. But more of a of a general program of all the things that are going on the world with, you know, with obviously our, our emphasis on our overlap which is the GM. So flotilla stuff. But things that are adjacent that we would be interested in, because we could, we could fill your dance code says even even if they're not. You know, get something on your whole program. More show and tell real quick. This is the GM lunch call. Something about that. Okay, never mind. I think it, I think it was Hamilton. Yeah, it's probably the one you're thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. How is Judy, we haven't seen Judy lately. I think she's doing okay. She's just doing other stuff. Well, I have something at the top of the hour. Sounds good. Let me drop. I'll drop a link to that. Did either of you save the chat because I fell off and there were a bunch of links early on and I don't have chat. Yeah, I've got the chat. It doesn't matter most straight. I can't save it on my phone. Thank you. So Jerry was thinking about open global mind in 2018 it looks like. And then that first call was June last year, I think. And one of the early links was that brain link to early OGM design questions. So how do we make sure, because this, this is, I guess why I even come here in the first place. In gathering all this collective intelligence. How do we ensure that, you know, we're getting the perspective of like, I don't know, the 15 year old kid, the, you know, the person in Africa, like what are we, to me that's what the social parts about for me. And that, that's how I think, you know, that's my part that I can play. But I have to say, Pete, I don't know if you remember this but one time I showed up at Kiko lab, and you put up the screen and I saw my name there and I was like, Oh my goodness, do you remember that. I don't. Was that a good surprise or a bad surprise. No, it was just surprised. I guess it was a good surprise was like, wow, I matter. You know, it was really nice. It was surprising though. Early design questions, how do we make diversity into GM. How do we make I can't hear that well. How do we bake diversity into GM. Yes. So it's been a question. Great on it for a while. The more we have the discussions and the more personal conversations, the greater chance we have of making that happen. Well, I do think that one of the things that fosters that is is more, more activity in other groups, and exposing each other to other groups that are more diverse than we are. And like, we had a really pretty intense and sometimes contentious conversation about it. But I think he led you to not be not want to participate at one point. But I mean, I think it was almost a year ago that I was in Mozilla Fest, which was like, hugely, hugely younger, more, you know, more diverse than every way. I mean, their lack of diversity actually had to do with not having that many people who were our age, but there were some. And, you know, it's like, why are we not there so that more and interacting with more of those people so we could bring more of those people here and just kind of evening it all out. But the TV program having shows that are are not produced by us and not featuring us and showing us other people that we can meet and socialize with would be a great step. One of the things that I see, which is why I try to like for a while I was only staying with younger people is because often not so much in this group but it does happen. Older people want to tell you what's not going to work. They don't allow for, you know, it's like, as creatures, we all want choice. And the first thing we try to take away from others, even if we're doing it in a well meaning, you know, for a well meaning reason, and younger people, they are just they don't have those same restrictions that we have like anything is possible. And I think, maybe they don't want any older people around because they're tired of grandpa telling them. This isn't the way we do it. Get off my lawn. Okay, it was great. I'm glad it wasn't canceled. I look forward to these. It was a fun call, even though I probably talked to him. Not at all. Never. Bye bye.