 Have a good morning, everyone. It's a warm welcome to those who were joining us on our web-streaming. The purpose of this press conference is to present you with the latest E.M.C.D.E, the European europole analysis of the EU drug market. This is an analysis that we do every three years. We started in 2013, and this is for the fourth round. Unlike in previous years, where the results were presented in a single report, Ond we've taken a different approach this time and we're releasing the findings gradually in a series of online modules. Today we're kicking off with the modules on cocaine and methamphetamine. So these modules are already online. You can already consult them and in the room you have the Wifi details if you'd like to connect. So it's my pleasure to introduce the panel. We're delighted to announce the two directors of the agencies. AMCDDA director Alexi Gwisdale, a'rまず cydanslif Viewer Ysgrifennie нет. First, I will give the floor to Alexi to begin his presentation. Thank you. Good morning everybody. Mr. Catherine, welcome back to Brussels. I'm very delighted to present this report together with Catherine de Boller. That's the fourth edition of the joint drug market report published by EMC-DDA and by Europol. It's the result of a very close cooperation between our two agencies and I had the opportunity last week in my visit to Europol to thank Catherine and the colleagues again. We have done a very good job the recent years and we have new projects and new challenges in front of us and today we are going to share with you the information and the reflections about some of those upcoming challenges. This report is different from the previous one. It's becoming modular, more interactive, digital and it's also structured following the structure of the work we do for the threat assessments for our contribution to impact and SOCTAR and it is using multi-data sources of information. Today we focus on two specific topics that are relating to the European stimulants market which is cocaine and methamphetamine and we are going to report different analysis on the other substances later this year. Cocaine has become now a very well established problem in the European Union. While we can say that methamphetamine is establishing itself in a consistent and dangerous emerging threat overall in the EU. Of course the size of the two problems is still different but we see a common trend in the increase both in drug production, trafficking and drug use. What is also important to notice is the important and growing role of non-European Union organized criminal groups, Colombian criminal groups in the case of cocaine and criminal organized groups from Mexico in the case of methamphetamine but also a growing role for organized criminal groups from other regions of the world in particular from the western Balkans and I think it's of particular interest if we look at the relationship between the EU and some of those different partner countries or groups of countries and of course there is a growing impact in terms of the production of billions of euros of profits. If we focus a few minutes on cocaine what we can say is that there is a high and the highest ever availability with high purity, low or stable prices. We consider that the affordability of cocaine has reduced by 38% so the cost to get access to cocaine is easier, 38% easier over the last years. We have a growing consumer market following the pressure of the offer on the consumer basis and we have at local level a growing problem with a small free-base market which is crack cocaine use also called free-base and that is characterized by high risk both for safety, security and public health. Together those events are shaping a different role for the EU in the international trade of cocaine trafficking and we also observe a dynamic European ports management with the growing use by organized criminal groups of secondary ports so the picture today is not only about Rotterdam or Antwerp but with plenty of other ports and you can even find some very good references and analysis in some podcasts or new papers. For instance, recently there was a podcast from Le Monde on the situation in Le Havre port in France and you have all the situation in other port like Marseille as you know there are a lot of challenges associated to drug trafficking and drug consumption in that city. It's not the only one. We see record seizures and of course what is more new in the recent years is the fact that we observed now in Europe the arrival of all forms of cocaine and the most surprising for me is the fact that we find cocaine paste and cocaine base that are being transformed on the territory of the European Union and those have not been detected through seizures but only through the seizures of the laboratories and I'm sure that Kathleen and the colleagues from Europe will share their analysis on that situation and as I said there is a growing impact in terms of risk for security and safety but also for public health. If we look at methamphetamine the size of the market is much smaller but it's fast expanding and actually there was an increase in the seizures on the territory of the European Union in the last years by 477% which is very, very important increase. We see an increase in the seizures but also in the production of methamphetamine on the territory of the EU with signals of increased use and I would like to flag the fact that until five, seven years ago the use of methamphetamine essentially under the form of pervitin was localized in Czech Republic a bit expanding in Slovakia and a few years ago for the first time through the wastewater analysis a laboratory detected some traces of methamphetamine use in Estonia and in Finland and it was a real surprise for Finland because there was no history whatsoever of methamphetamine use and following the following research that was done after once we can see that now there is not a big size but still a growing problem of methamphetamine use also in Northern Europe. Another characteristic is the industrial scale of the production and the capacity with the involvement of cooks chemists coming from the Mexican cartels and the development of crime as a service which means that traffickers producers and organized crime are providing a broad set of services that actually allowed to sell and equip any kind of laboratory for the production of synthetic drugs. That's a very worrying change and that it is very noticeable compared with what was the situation a few years ago and then finally I think it's important to mention that as we have highlighted and informed a few years ago there is a change in Afghanistan that started some years ago driving to the production of methamphetamine coming more directly from the plant Efedra or Efedrin and even if it's not yet fully documented we don't know if there are huge quantities arriving to Europe yet still potentially there is a possibility for the methamphetamine produced in Afghanistan to come to Europe why because it's very cheap to produce it and the yield in the production makes it easier to to sell and to use it directly so high again a high potential high risk for safety security and for those who have been looking at breaking bad or following other news looking at the situation in the US in Australia or in South East Asia I think one of the things we certainly don't know don't want is to have a real epidemic on methamphetamine use or crystal meth as for instance there is there are some pockets of use for instance in Athens so in a nutshell the situation we depict in those two analysis it contributes to the overall analysis we make which is that drugs are everywhere everything can be used as a drug and everyone can be the victim or the object of the the actor or know something someone having a problem of addiction to one or another substance and in this case we have a strong potential for those problems to be the perfect storm we have depicted a situation that is at risk especially for the vulnerable groups and the war in Ukraine certainly is not making the situation easier just because of its negative impact on the economy that in turn may have also an impact with the groups that are more vulnerable in the society so what can we do the report is presenting a set of recommendations for policy and action following an inline with the structure as I said for Socta and Impact certainly as more production is taking place in Europe both for methamphetamine and cocaine especially from cocaine paste and cocaine base we have a bigger challenge as far as precursors and the control of chemical precursors are concerned and I think we need to update our perception and understanding of the problem because more than ever when we speak about drugs in Europe it's not only about injecting drug users that for the moment represent still an important part of the problem but proportionally a smaller one thank you very much thank you very much alexie and now over to you Catherine the ball thank you thank you thank you alexies for the floor and and the colleagues ladies and gentlemen of the press it's an opportunity again to be here and as alexie said it's a tradition that a Europol and EMCDDA we work jointly on the evaluation of the situation of drugs in the EU and it's a tradition that we want to keep as long as possible the two markets that are presented today the cocaine market determines largely the drugs landscape in the EU and methamphetamine as alexie said is an expanding market for us law enforcement it is really an important to understand how these markets are developing to understand who are the criminal actors behind these markets and what can we do about it how do we have to tackle this how do we have to deal with this situation because as you understood it's a very difficult situation we are in we know now that almost 40 percent of the criminal networks operating at the international level reported to Europol are active in drugs trafficking and we expect that this will increase because drugs remains one of the most lucrative markets that are existing so for us for Europol and for the law enforcement community in the European Union it is a priority to to track to tackle drugs and I would like to start with a positive note step by step we are becoming more successful altogether in tackling the criminal networks behind never before there have been as much as seizures as the last four years seizures arrests and laps that we detected the operations you all heard about anchor chat sky and trojan shield have given us insights into the market that we never had before and in particular the financial transactions behind and the modus operandi used by the criminal organizations these insights they have also served as input for the reports that we present today let me outline some of the concrete insights we can take away from the reports that we present to you today and let's start with the home front and the worrying increase of the methamphetamine market in the EU the reality we all know is that the EU is not just a destination area in drugs trafficking it's also a significant region of origin and a region of transit and criminal networks they produce a very wide range of synthetic drugs in the EU which are distributed globally including for instance destinations as Australia and Japan we see an increasing number of drug laboratories active in the EU producing synthetic drugs and in particular methamphetamine the trafficking and the industrial scale production of methamphetamine is growing it's a growing problem for the EU as methamphetamine is a generator of many millions of euros of illicit profits for those trading in this substance the presence as mentioned also already by alexie of central and south american actors in the EU in synthetic drugs is a fact on several occasions multi ton quantities in methamphetamine produced in south america have been seized in the EU and most of the time it was coming from Mexico and what is also a very worrying trend we see is that specialized chemists operating from south america are also active in the labs here in the european union it highlights the international scale of the issue of the fact that it is dangerous and that it is highly profitable that we encountered this in the EU today it's also clear that it is a criminal service industry that is very sophisticated and it has grown and is still growing all the time some EU based criminal networks have specialized in and deal exclusively in the logistical supply chain and in the logistical services for criminal organizations for this synthetics drugs production or they are responsible for the transport or they are responsible for the recruitment of the people who need to work in the labs the industrialized methamphetamine market is an increasing threat to our society indeed not only from the viewpoint of the criminal actors but also the health impact cannot be underestimated on the cocaine market the seizures of cocaine were never so high in the past four years this shows that low enforcement activities are becoming more and more successful but drugs trafficking and the fight against drug trafficking is an uphill battle what do we see not only the corruption increased but in particular the corruption is more worrying because of the intimidation of port workers in our EU harbors more and more port workers are threatened by criminals in and around the ports or they are offered large large amounts of money to support the trafficking of drugs another worrying problem is the use of violence violence nowadays is a key feature for criminal organizations to make sure that they are the strongest in their business area the violence has also a direct impact on citizens on the streets because we see people dying on on the streets in the european union and lastly clearly visible is the waterbed effect when criminal organizations see that police interventions are more structured and organized in certain areas they replace their field of action they will always stay in the harbors where the volumes are big but they will also look for alternatives and that is what we see now we see really a waterbed effect towards for instance harbors as duncag or harbors in spain and italy even germany due to this effect what is helping drugs criminals is the containerized maritime trafficking they use the containerized maritime trafficking for the traffic of cocaine through the major harbors like rotterdam and antwerp and we see even with all the actions of the law enforcement community that this continue to grow and also increasing numbers in the smaller ports how do we approach this for us it's very important that we have to recognize that drugs cocaine methamphetamine that we systematically need to prioritize our investigations against high value targets which pose the hard the most important risk to our societies and we need to do this in the framework of international operational task forces so we need to work together and we need to put the people the investigators together to develop actions that are intelligence led to tackle the criminal groups behind in the drug economy we also need to go against the chief executive officers those who are holding the key positions in the criminal organization and we have to work on their money flows we have to trace the assets and we have to go through confiscation at Europol and the law enforcement with the law enforcement partners what do we do we recently re-established the drugs unit we did not have a drugs unit anymore and the aim is to pull the resources together and to pull our efforts together so that we really can focus on high value targets orchestrating the drugs trafficking and we are also developing a drug intelligence fusion platform at Europol it aims to synchronize all the efforts that we undertake in the European Union and with our international partners related to the drugs criminals international cooperation of course is key we have key partners globally that we can trust we have our partners in the united states of america the the drug enforcement agency is for us a very important partner we have liaison officers from colombia at Europol and colombia just decided to send extra investigators to Europol to support the operational task forces in the headquarters and soon we will have brazilian investigators also at the headquarters in the hake to support also these operational task forces and the last years we invested heavily in our data analysis capacities in order to make use of the information that we got out of the big operations like encrochette skyer cc among other sources we can say from a law enforcement perspective that a lot have been has been achieved in the fight against drugs but as the two reports show we we still have to go the way we are not there yet and we need to double down on our efforts it is clear that we need an integrated approach that we need a lot of information exchange and sharing not only at european level but that we trusted partners all over the world investment in prevention is of key importance and harm and supply reductions reduction is very important Europol is there to support the member states in the union and member states with whom we have an operational agreement for us it's a key priority it will remain a key priority and we are very happy with the cooperation with emc dda because it gives us good insights in what is going on on the drug market and also with them we can work further on this excellent collaboration and develop action plans to that to tackle the criminal groups behind thank you thank you very much thank you so we'll now open the question and answer session so the questions could be put in english and if we can focus on the content of today my colleague sonia here will be going around with the microphone yep so if there are any questions please end up or could you um state your media organization and to whom you're addressing the question thank you my name is in the beginning i'm internalist from mexico from a universal newspaper i would like to know europeals threat assessment of the mexican drug cartels how europe already is threat and about fentanyl what is the situation in europe and if fentanyl could be the next next next stage of mexican-dutch belgium collaboration okay thank you so good morning thank you for this question indeed we see a clear link uh europe mexico um mexican uh people drugs criminals from the cartels are active or active on the european soil chemists from mexico come to the european union um because they are specialized in the production and in the use of metamphetamyl so we use we see that they are active in the labs we had incidents with mexicans one dead two found on the streets in the netherlands for instance coming out of an explosion of a lab um we are worried about fentanyl we don't we don't see it yet uh in in a huge number on the european soil but we are worried because we know that the mexican chemists they are responsible for the production of them of the fentanyl for northern america so it is a worrying trend to us and we we have to look at the possibility that also here the production of fentanyl could uh could start yeah yeah what what i what i could add regarding fentanyl is that you probably know that the the situation in the u is different from the us for instance uh regarding the epidemic of fentanyl in fact on the territory of the european union fentanyl's we detected fentanyl's already years ago for the first time together with europeal through the european early warning system on new psychoactive substances so i would say we have had a first wave of nps uh belonging to the family of fentanyl's what we see is that uh and we will have a more recent analysis to be presented to you in june the 14th of june when we present the european drug report um and you will see that for the moment we see that uh the the evolution of the the arrival and the consumption of fentanyl is not as important as it was years ago now uh katlin said very well katlin said very well we have a huge potential for industrial capacity of any kind of synthetic drugs in europe so it doesn't mean that if there was an increase in the production of fentanyl there would be no clients for it so certainly we need to remain uh cautious and and to monitor and to continue the actions uh from the law and force community but for for the moment what is the drive in the us is an epidemic about the opioids consumption that was partly generated by abusive prescription of painkillers using containing opioids which is completely different uh so we we don't have reasons to be exaggeratedly optimistic uh but certainly given that the situation and the context are different uh for the moment we we don't see that as as a risk or a threat so important as the threat of methamphetamine morning chef portmans from belgian magazine trends you've established the role of the EU operationally within these two markets could you give us an idea of the EU's role financially is it a financial center within these markets or what role do does the EU or do EU member states play in in in those terms thanks from a law enforcement perspective for instance customs authority police authorities they cooperate together to tackle drugs it's a priority in most of the member states because it's also a priority at european level and these priorities are determined by the ministers of interior on european level so we can say that on european level there is a good cooperation and understanding in between the member states what we see at europeal we organize specific organizing actions related to drugs to the fight against drugs and we have grants to support the member states in in this fight against drugs at EU level the important development is also the port authorities they cooperate more and more we have for instance the port working group where you have the port of Amsterdam of a pardon Rotterdam antwerpen and Hamburg working together to have a good picture of what is coming in what are the threats where are the gaps in our system and who can we learn from one another and this is very important to europeal is also part of this and what we try to do is to have a good intelligence picture because before we start with operations we have to see what is going on and we can say that the last years our intelligence picture is much better than it was before that's why we have also these high numbers of seizures because we can work more led by the intelligence we gather as a alexis spoke about the western Balkan also with these countries we have more and more change related to drugs criminals and to import and export of drugs in in their region so when we have a good intelligence picture then we start with operational task forces it's always member state driven europeal supports with data analysis and then we decide together how we will tackle the different criminal groups behind if i can add they did a fantastic job at europeal and with the order of police forces with dyncro chart and sky cc and basically what it shows it's what together with europeal we say for years that we need to update the perception of what is the drug situation we face Catherine said in her presentation i did not mention to avoid to repeat but there is a growing problem of corruption in the EU and that problem of corruption among other things has been is reflected by the partial analysis of the huge amount of data they managed to collect through and crochet and and sky cc the problem today is to make sure that the member states will allocate the means to fight even better together against money laundering and also against corruption what what i think is extremely useful is to see if you look at the situation in the member states all the investigations that took place thanks to anchor chart and sky cc you have plenty places in all your member states where nobody would have ever believed that there were drugs or storage of drugs or production or trafficking and and it reflects that it is everywhere so as it is permeating the society also because there is a variety of substance use much more different and disseminated than before this leads to a false perception that injecting drug use heroin use is not so important so drugs it belongs to the past in fact the old drug use belongs probably partly to the past but we talk about the drug and substance use of today and of tomorrow and i think this is why the those terabytes of information that were collected through those those operations and the intelligent i would say the intelligence it may generate when they will manage to digest those mountains of information will need then to be used by the member states to strengthen their efforts and coordinate them even better but the collective tools exist and we have the EU strategy and the action plan that are supporting that what we what we also see is the real infiltration of the drugs money in the in the legal economy and that is really a problem because it undermines the trust in your societies it undermines the rule of law and but it's it's clear that this is happening at the moment that is why we also give a lot of attention to financial investigations because we need to link the two of them and we need to go after the money flows because remote coordination from drug kingpins at the moment is essential so you have the organizers in the united arab Emirates are in brazil for instance but the work is done here they stay of course there because for money laundering activities it's better they have good logistical hubs over there and they are out of prosecution in the in the countries so for them it's an advantage system and that's also something we discover this communication and this remote coordination through the big cases that are ongoing good morning Samuel Petruca for the Associated Press i think mr gosdale mentioned the highest level of purity for cocaine in your preliminary speech what are the reasons for that and does it pose an extra threat to public health okay thank you thank you very much for the question and i invite also my colleagues if they want to complement my answer do not hesitate because we have the the lead project responsible for the cocaine analysis and also the lead responsible for the for the report on metafetamin i think one of the fact there are many factors the the first factor i think is that since the the the opening of the peace negotiations with FARC between FARC and the and the colombian government years ago we have seen a dramatic increase in the production of cocaine in colombia so that's i would say that's that's a factor that that means from the origin of the places of production there was a huge increase what what i i know has also changed is that there have been improvement in the chemical processing and the yield of the culture and the production of cocaine so it's not only that they produced more but the yield in the cultivation and the chemical processes have made that cocaine there was more cocaine produced and and of high quality and and and and and then this means that as there is a huge quantity and there is no problem of unfortunately despite the huge amount of seizures and since 2017 they have only increased or a year on year what we see is that the the purity is not changing which means that for the moment we we don't know exactly you know the standard question we will never find the final answer what is the real size of the problem the real dimension but certainly the fact that despite all the seizures cocaine is still remain very pure means that probably there is no there are no consequences yet of the efforts of law enforcement that would mean that for the people who are using drugs they would notice that the purity has changed so that's one factor and another factor which i mentioned and and i expressed my surprise if i see if i look at the evolution in the recent years is the fact that now when laboratories have been seized not through standard or normal seizures we have detect on the territory of the EU laboratories that were transforming cocaine paste and cocaine base and and there the the the two risks that i see is first it it seems that it creates or it closer from some potential producers of chemical precursors this means that there is also potentially a risk in term in terms of public health because from cocaine paste and cocaine based it is possible to produce another variety of crack i i i mentioned variety because the crack that is used in europe is produced from from from the the salt from chlorhydrat while when it is the one that is used in latin america is produced from from cocaine based and cocaine paste which means potentially more crack available which is highly addictive and with the highly negative consequences for health so all together there are certainly other factors i don't know if loran wants to to add some elements but those are as far as i know the the main factors and and what is really amazing and that's what was presented also by catrin from the the result from the investigations led or coordinated by europe all is that this tent tent this trend for the moment is not even stabilizing so the which means we we need to continue to to be extremely careful uh and and and as we say in the analysis you can find in the report uh there is no simple question like why is it in antwerp or why is it in Rotterdam because the the it's like any commodities market i think one of the biggest change in the last five to ten years is that now it's circulating all over the globe in containers even heroin was seized in the port of hamster dam two years ago one ton in the container i think it was the first time ever and before nobody would have imagined that we would have 200 tons or 300 tons almost seized in one year because potentially that's such an amount of money and luckily for the moment there are not yet enough consumers to consume it so as catrin said we need to invest not only on safety and security but also in public health in prevention and that's one of the topics that was discussed by the member states at the council of the EU meeting of the horizontal working party on drugs two years two days ago there was a specific thematic debate on that um do we have any more questions yep the matriad o mesterlau gennals franspress to to follow on this particular topic um okay can we have an idea with maybe figures on how it it evolved the this precise question of transformation of of coke uh in the EU because we are usually talking about um synthetic drugs laboratory in in lambour for example in belgian or in the netherlands but is can we have a precise concrete idea on the extent that that took in the maybe in the last three or four years of this transformation of coke how many laboratories were there seizures in in in which countries of the EU okay first if catrin wants to answer but lorand then can give you the precise figures regarding the the laboratories and the seizures i can just say for the seizures for instance um we thought we had the record seizure in um 2020 because we the figures we received from the different member states we seized in the european union 214.6 tons in 2020 but now 2022 we see already until now the seizures got 240 tons so there is an increase in seizures but we also expect there is an increase in in the drugs market globally because it is um a very lucrative business and it remains a very lucrative business but on the seizures uh on the specifics related to drugs and the purity i am lor lanylai workers scientific analyst and the leader of the cocaine analysis so on the labs between 2018 and 2020 45 labs were detected in mostly the netherlands including 11 in spain and two in belgium cocaine labs what these labs were doing was transforming extracting cocaine from carrier materials such as plastic or charcoal um in which it was chemically integrated so d integrate the cocaine from the carrier materials and when you do that what you obtain most of the time is cocaine base and this cocaine base needs to be transformed into cocaine hydrochloride uh before it can be sold to consumers okay so um low enforcement in holland uh told us that at least 10 of the of these 45 labs that were seized in this three-year period had a capacity to produce 100 to 200 kilos of cocaine hydrochloride a day okay uh that's if you transform into weeks 1.4 tons a week um i'm not very good at mouth but it months it's six something tons a month of cocaine hydrochloride okay so it's a very very decent amount um the other information is also uh indicating that these labs in europe are sophisticated in the sense that they use equipment that seems to be of higher grade than the equipment used for example in colombia because the equipment is made here in europe most likely by people who previously manufactured equipment for uh the production of amphetamine and mdma and also meth uh in europe one two the chemicals used in europe come from uh as far as we know uh industrial grade uh uh producers of chemicals again a difference in colombia most of the chemicals that are used are made in illicit laboratories making precursor chemicals okay so and they do not reach the grade of industrial quality they are pretty good grade and they produce pretty high purity cocaine in colombia but in europe all these elements uh together with the presence of some colombian chemists in the labs indicate that probably production of cocaine hydrochloride in europe is results in a high quality product um on the purity question if i may adjust two things basically um a lot of cocaine is being produced incredible amounts probably historically very high amounts and because of the increase in the efficiency of the process that alexi mentioned all of this cocaine is very high but maybe not all but a large proportion of this cocaine is very high purity um and this is sold to a number of actors who are competing with each other to sell it on the market so obviously they have an interest in trying to sell the purest product the higher quality product so that's one factor explaining why purity doesn't stop increasing in europe another one which is more perhaps anecdotical but we have noticed that in the past the cocaine that was sent from colombia to europe or to the us was adulterated with other substances cutting agents such as levamisol for example right in the lab in colombia or in peru nowadays the cocaine that is seized in direction to europe or to the united states from colombia from south america in general is much less adulterated some of it is extremely high purity 97 98 purity it's a high purity this means that the latin americans have stopped adulterating the cocaine at the source and the most of the adulteration takes place here in europe in facilities dedicated to adulterating the cocaine but again because they are in competition they can't afford to cut it too heavily otherwise you know people would turn to another dealer who sells better quality product thank you loron one of the things i can add is that one of the of the actions we would like to to do more to develop in the future for the moment there is a partnership as kathryn mentioned with the dea including with their drug profile project in the future it would be good for the youth to have also the capacity to cooperate and to to develop to contribute to this work on on drug profiling and and as you can understand talking today about all those changes on the cocaine market and the changes on the methamphetamine market it's even more important than before to conduct profiling and to support profiling at u level because basically it would tell us much more even than before about the the production processes the chemical processes where those substances are coming from and of course in some cases what are the adherence and the risk for health and and second and last point what is what is also a significant change that i did not mention because we probably will further elaborate in june for the european drug trend report is the fact that poly drug use is becoming also a standard practice so you have countries where for instance you have an increase in the drug related death associated to cocaine use combined with benzodiazepines which is also something different uh that uh that uh until recently until some years ago i would not pretend it did not exist but uh there were no cases reported to us so this means the the the addictive behaviors are in any case also becoming more complex and therefore we need to integrate even much more the work on the on law enforcement the forensic labs the toxicology labs and and the potential impact and benefit of this information for strategic analysis but also for public health interventions okay thank you uh any more questions no no more okay um all right so thank you very much for that so just to let you know that in the room we have various experts who can be giving um interviews after the session along with the directors um we also have yan here who is communication from europeal so um come to me or to yan if you need an interview um yeah we have various experts who can help you with that so i think that's that's all from us uh we'll wrap up the press conference now um thank you very much to all those who watched on the streaming the streaming will now end and in the room we can have a chat and have a coffee okay thank you very much bye bye