 Salams, you're watching NewsClick, where in Imphal, where in the state of Manipur, of course, where from May 3rd, the evening of May 3rd onwards, violence has continued unabated in the state. The narrative that is being told is that the war that is currently on is between two factions, the dominant community in the state, the Mehti, and the Kuki, which comprises about 10 percent of the state's population. It has also often been mentioned that this entire period of violence began with a peace rally organized by the All Tribal Students Union, Manipur, from where the violence actually ticked off and then has now engulfed the state. A lot of these matters are being challenged in court. A lot of the narrative is being challenged in court. A lot of the assumptions that are being made through various media organs are being challenged in court. And joining us today, fortuitously, because of internet issues, he's been asked to appear in Imphal, so he is in town. Senior advocate in the Supreme Court, Dr. Colin Gonzalez, as well as founder of the Human Rights Law Network is here. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. I'm sure there's a lot for you to get through, a lot for you to compute as well, a lot of people to meet. If we can start with the chronology in terms of what has been happening in the courts and then we'll talk further about your understanding of the situation on the ground because you're here as well. Well, what I'll try and do is give you a dispassionate statement on the factual situation. I'll also cover what the Maithai side is saying so that I'm not, you know, like arguing a matter before you, but I'll give you what both sides are saying for you to decide which way you want to go and so on. So when it starts with the single judge of the High Court, who happens to be the Chief Justice, making an order to the state government to recommend to the central government that the Maithai should be included in the Scheduled Tribes list. Now, that was an astonishing order according to us. The Maithai's of course say it's perfectly legal and perfectly valid. And we rely on one or two judgments of the Supreme Court, like Millens' case, which says that when it comes to the inclusion or the exclusion of a tribe from that Scheduled Tribes list, it is purely between parliament and the state government and the central government and courts have no role to play. So it gave rise to, as you know now, it gave rise to killings right across Manipur. I suppose anyone, not just a lawyer appearing for the cookies, but anyone would say it was the most unfortunate development in the state to happen. But it's not just the order which causes the calamity and the crisis. It's the groups who are taking advantage of that order to create absolute chaos in the state. Anyway, so that was the order passed by the single judge. The tribal unions immediately filed the appeal before the division bench, which will be heard at some stage. And they say two things. They say, first, when you pass that order, you should have heard the tribals because the tribals are affected by that order and you didn't hear us. You passed the order without hearing. And secondly, like I said earlier, the constitution bench of the Supreme Court has said that the courts have no business interfering with issues like this. So that is spending. In the meanwhile, an interesting development takes place. And I'm just giving it to you factually, where I don't want to give you a one-sided view of the whole thing. So now the Maithai side comes to court, telling the learned single judge that he made a mistake by directing the state government to make a recommendation. Now, it's a surprising thing to say because that's exactly what the tribal side said. And incidentally in all this, I think there was some comments made at a higher level about whether this can be done or not be done. And now they tell the court, please change your order and say, don't say recommend, but pass an order to the state government to tell the central government to consider what the Maithais are saying, so far so good. To which the tribals say, all right, since you've admitted you're wrong on the first part, fine. But you're asking for an order to consider the Maithai position. It can't be done. It can't be done. This is what the tribals are saying, right? One, because the Maithai, the cookies are not a tribal in Manipur. They're not on the list of Manipuri tribals. The Maithais are not on that list. The cookies are. The cookies are, yes. The Maithais are not on that list. And to be a scheduled tribe means you must be part of the tribe, but you must be impoverished, destitute economically backward education, and so on. So you're not even on the tribal list. As far as backwardness is concerned, first of all, after independence, there's no attempt by the Maithais. This is what the tribals said, there's no attempt by the Maithais to have their name in that list. Some people say tongue-in-cheek. We'll have to see that the Maithais felt offended by the scheduled tribes. Come on, we're not backward, surely. And I think anyone can say, even I, who's on the cookie side, I would say that Manipuri society is very proud that the Maithais have achieved so much. A long history. A long history is one thing. But even in today's world, I mean, you control the valley, you're educationally forward, you're economically forward, you're politically dominant. So I think the Maithais, gradually, gradually old. So I think if there's one thing where the Maithais were right, wasn't this understanding that it's terribly wrong for us to say, means the Maitha is to say that we are backward, we're suddenly not backward. And I think that initial reaction was correct. So when the Kalelkar committee, which was meant to revise the schedule tribes list, sat in 56, the Maithais didn't go. Tribes from all across the countries came, said, you know, you've left me out of the 1950 order, include me, but the Maithais didn't go. 65 when Lokur committee sat. And again, tribes from all across the country, hundreds of tribes went, the Maithais didn't go. And now they go to the high court and get consider my representation. I looked at the material, they've given material and my senses from that material, I may turn out to be wrong. When they argue, they may prove me to be wrong. But from all that material, I could not find a single line, a single line showing that they are backward. Not a single line. The historical records are pre-British, a pre-independence, I'm sorry, the pre-independence. So British time and even in British time, the writers, the authors are saying that this was a tribe, they settled in the valley and they became dominant. So a dominant tribe will actually may even go out of the tribal list. The Maithais have gone out of the tribal list and they certainly can't get, you know, accelerate, take a jump and get into the schedule. That's not possible. So this argument is taking place in the high court. But it could have been these sometimes, sometimes an order of a court can cause the kind of havoc. You know, that could have been avoided if a simple thing like listening to the affected party for God's sake. It's a principle, you know, of law that you listen to the other side and look at the killings and the burnings of houses and burning of churches. There's another group behind this. So I don't want to blame the high court at all. The high court made a mistake, you made a mistake, that's fine. But who are these killer organizations behind the killings? So coming to that, the solidarity march, the peace march that was organized and where one side says the violence began because in those areas where the cookie are in a larger section of the population, methe houses and methe shops and such were targeted. And then on the other side are these organizations that you are referring to that unleashed large scale violence in the Imphal valley which is the biggest population center in the state by far. So how do you view the balance between these two completely differing narratives? Yeah, well that's where people like you come in because you have to really separate the rubbish from the truth. And this is an area where politics plays a very big role. And the party at the center and the party in power in Manipur have started a narrative of falsehood of lies, open lies. And it's important for journalists not to go by the surface story and to dig in deep and get the truth. As a lawyer we try to collect the evidence and we put it into our documents and court but I think you have a very important role to play here. If you look at the deaths, let's look at first of all who's the victim? Who's the assailant? And according to us and again we could be wrong the number of cookies killed are touching approximately 100. Yeah and when I say this it means we've gone back to the village we've talked to the cookie friends they have the name of the person which we have the name the place where the killings took place so 100. And I think we'd be by and large absolutely correct. I try to get the Maithai deaths I'm not able to get but my enlightened guesswork is it'll be perhaps about 25. 25 Maithai deaths. Now this has to be taken with another figure which is how many of them are civilian deaths of Maithais and how many are the militarized organizations communal, both communal and heavily armed groups who are carrying out the killing their sense is roughly half half. So out of 25 maybe you'll get 10, 11, 12 who are civilians who are killed which is most unfortunate which is very unfortunate. I may appear for the cookies but a death is a death. And as far as these two organizations are concerned I won't repeat their names now at this moment but it's widely reported in the newspapers and they've been so bold as to come on Karanthapur's interviews and so on. So I would say out of 25 about 12, 13, 14 are the combatants or salons and the rest are civilians. Now if you just look at this 12 civilians as compared to 100 civilians you know who the victim is so that's the first thing in a so-called clash and that word is very neutral right? Clash. What does clash mean really? It's an attack and a defense right? So if 12 or 10 are the Maithai there and 100 you know who the victim community is and I think there's no doubt in all this and then to add to that you have the villages burnt which we've got the names and the places and there are roughly maybe 80 plus or 100 plus villages burnt, small small groupings burnt to the ground and then churches burnt 125, 135 churches burnt to the ground so they are the victim community they are the assailant. Now the assailants are not particularly you know ashamed of what they did Communalism in our country has a long history and we've had many communal clashes I was, I saw the Bombay clash in the 1990s we saw the Gujarat communal clash in 2000, 2002 and so on we've seen communal so we have a long history and it goes into a particular pattern and nobody now, what's different now is that they are proud of what they do they were ashamed of what they did earlier they are proud of what they do today they're very proud of killing and I think the central government and I think our prime minister and our home minister you know very, I mean, accomplished people the prime minister won election after election after election but that doesn't absolve you of the crimes against humanity you might be a very good politician you might even have the love of some section of the people and you have one election like other prime ministers have not so I acknowledge that I acknowledge that but does that absolve you from a crime the highest possible crime in international law which is a crime against humanity it does not so they're so proud that on Karanthapa's program these guys, the head of the organization said tell the cookies we are capable of and we will annihilate them here we go what bigger crime, hate speech can you have than that particularly when it's followed up with killings you do exactly what you say you would do and the other organization we've got photographs of them with their automatic weapons and aiming at targets so proud of their weaponry and their ability to kill kill the cookies, kill the cookies only the cookies, kill the cookies I mean what has India descended to what kind of savage country are we I know the prime minister has gone to America where he's used the word democracy 10 times and we are proud of our democratic traditions but is India a democracy today and I think the sooner the average Indian or the average citizen of the world understands that India is certainly not democratic at all it's just talk it's just showmanship, it's just rhetoric I think we are going through one of the most dangerous times Manipur is not Manipur alone in terms of its impact and effect Manipur tells you what India has become in that sense and maybe we can talk a bit more about the legal aspect first before coming to sort of your broader understanding of the scenario so what exactly are you now seeking from the court if you are saying that we have enough evidence of this militarization, these organizations do you has it come down to the court requiring to issue specific instructions for these sort of people who like you have said have very publicly talked of their rule in the violence for action to be taken against them well to my mind it's the most important demand that you register complaints, FIRs against these persons all of them not just the leadership but the membership as well and you arrest them immediately if there is no doubt in everybody's mind and I would say even the the Maithais would not agree publicly but they would be very proud of what their what their communal groups have managed to do we have to register complaints because even that elementary step of registering a complaint has not happened and you have to arrest and I did say earlier and I'll say it again everybody says what's the solution the solution is so simple if the police or a special investigation agency because we can't rely on the Manipur police if you have a genuinely independent agency investigating and arresting these persons the violence in Manipur will stop tomorrow I have no doubt spineless people who kill innocent people, spineless they get their courage from the fact that certain sections of the establishment certain sections of the law and order peacekeeping establishment in every state are on their side and you take away that their absolute cowards who will take defenseless people poor people, indigent people living in the hills and elsewhere and shoot them there is a solution just arrest them and it will stop but does the chief minister want to do that or does he want to continue? question mark the home minister wants to arrest people he is arresting people all across the country for terrorism if a person speaks against the authorities you get arrested for terrorism UAPA, the terrorism statute for speaking against, criticizing the government and so on is the home minister interested and actually moving against I don't think so and is the man at the top interested I don't think so so we have a situation where the three functionaries from the prime minister to the home minister to the chief minister are they actually proud of what they've achieved are they actually agreeing with what has happened do they really want to stop it or are they thinking which I think they're thinking and I think there's an element of truth in this it's the old-fashioned divide and rule between this section of the population and that section hammer the minorities win over the majority and win election after election maybe that formula may not work exactly in Manipur because the repercussions have been huge but I think at the back of their minds they see it as a political winning formulation we've hammered them so we presume, that means the government will presume that all the baitas will vote for us which I think may not turn out to be exactly correct as we are seeing now on the ground we are seeing a backlash against this political class by the people led by some of these Mera Pai B and all who are angry also mentioning, well of course some of the deaths on the Mehte side are those who belong to these groups those who are not being able to for example so paddy in the fields out of fear of being attacked from the hills and because they have been told that there is this possibility that at any point a sniper sitting up on the hill will shoot you while you're out in your field doing your work and so we found the paddy crop for next season it's sowing time now the work has not really begun how do you see this sort of panning out from a political point of view or is that something that you don't want to get into? see I understand what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying but there's a world of a difference between being angry and not voting right and I think the judgment call is this that whatever we've done whatever problems have happened to the Mehte community we believe that by us attacking the cookies the Mehte will as a block vote for us and so well what does it matter in Indian democracy what does crime matter what does killing matter if we can win votes that's all that matters winning votes in elections if that was the crude thinking behind the attacks and I can see no other reason for it then let's see time will tell whether you're right and we're also a long time away I think from elections in the state still another I think four years to go so long way off any other aspects of the legal side of things now what can we expect from the next hearing or well I just want to say I don't want to answer your question but I want to say something of a general nature linked to your question I feel and we've all known that institutions in our country have been disintegrating the institutions in democracy the free press you know the entire education system freedom of information freedom of speech is disintegrating and with the cookies I feel that we have no one to turn to see I come from a background where my friends were in activism and they all scolded me saying what is this belief that you have you know in law and so on everyone knows that the legal system doesn't work and for all these years I fought against that saying you know come to the law use the law take recourse to the law it may be a straw that you're clutching to but it's a straw take it and I feel today slightly ashamed of what I said and I who had so much hope in the institutions of democracy I believe they are dying rapidly and the cookies just feel I mean the killings just go on and on can you imagine the supreme court was kind enough to tell the central government consider their grievances not twice not once but twice somewhere early May and somewhere in the middle of May when we pointed out listen sir this is what is going to happen we know it's going to happen and the court was so kind that the court said address their grievances and the court was told it's stopping sir in fact it's already stopped for the last two days nothing has happened and then killing killing killing so the cookies feel and I personally feel that we have really nowhere to turn to we feel that God has forsaken us in a sense you know that feeling of abject futility in the processes of democracy that's what Manipur signifies and yet I suppose interesting for our audience also to note that you are still in court you are still engaging with that process whereas the same might not be said of all sides have you ever seen anything like this before in your time at the human rights law network where the chief minister who's like you said voted in with a massive mandate 50 plus days of ongoing well whatever you want to call it violence unable unwilling or in either case has not had any conversations with the other side Gujarat classic model classic model no communal attack can take place in this country without the head of that area that state giving the orders to attack if the police are told if the police are told by any chief minister or prime minister stop the violence our police force can stop that violence in 24 hours I have no doubt and I have had senior police officers tell us Colin if we had a free hand any police force in any state will stop the violence in 24 hours if it doesn't stop it means the order to continue comes right from the top Gujarat was that Manipur is that so what do you do when the heads of your your governance is giving orders to kill what hope can an Indian have why should young Indians stay in this country I'm old so I'm hanging around I really tell young people today I said if you can get out get out young idealistic people come to me they want to work in law they want to do social work tell them if you can get out get out there is no hope there is no future for you there's no future for this country I mean it's interesting what you're saying we often hear this in the northeast that you know there is this politics of otherization that India doesn't really care that on the one hand we want this idea of the union of India and everything the democratic traditions and values that we want in theory but when it comes to the northeast that completely goes out of the window no not exactly no no no not exactly the country cares for the votes not the people they care for the votes and to get that vote they must have people on their side and in fact this government has done quite a bit of improvisation in the northeast and one elections here the question is what is the way in which you get the votes is it divide and rule is it by spreading hate is it by creating divisions so that the minority may not vote for you but the majority will then it's a model of communalism you're winning elections but you're spreading hate that's the model the government is very good in the northeast good in the sense that they've mastered the British art of divide and rule what the British did this government does ten times better spectacular division of the country and the winning of elections we have also been here for quite some time and therefore are kind of cut off from the rest of the world because of the ongoing internet ban and things like that and eventually hopefully people in the state will get a chance to watch this interview and hear your take on it what do you make of and we can do this in any sort of way that you like one how the media has been approaching the situation in Manipur and secondly is there a narrative or an understanding that this is somehow a Hindu bastion in an area surrounded by Christian-dominated states like Nagaland or Mizoram and that helps in the center kind of A, allowing some of these forces a freer hand than they normally would and B also spending more resource than in that in the achievement of that objective let me answer your first question which related to remind me again so let me answer the first question which related to the media it's a collapse of the media and I suppose this has much to do with corporate takeover of the television of the newspapers the sacking of secular journalists in the hundreds across the country and the takeover by corporate houses that have that are determined to crush freedom of speech how was it done and it's amazing that you know it's a to me it's somewhat new first of all you have a narrative of a clash so in every report day after day after day after day the attack which is once sided starting with these two you know armed groups against the cookies the tribals right a once sided killing is converted into a clash and the clash gives the story as if two groups that have historically been at each other's throats are fighting and the poor prime minister of the country doesn't know what to do and the poor home minister of the country doesn't know what to do he'll try his best to stop it and the chief minister of course is presented with this unruly clash between two groups I want to say that in all our pleadings we have not said a word against the maithais the maithais and the cookies have had their own struggles sometimes pretty tough struggles but the maithais as a group are not the enemies of the cookies as a lawyer for the cookies I want to say it clearly they are not our enemy they are not the persons who en masse rise as a force and say exterminate these people now they are increasing yeah they are not our enemies it's these two groups that happen to be maithais but they are these kind of civil society groups organized by the state who are killing the cookies not the general and there are no attacks to my mind there are no attacks by the cookies on the civilian maithai population so this entire conversation that is happening in the local newspapers today just today you might have seen again a statement what do you make of this naku terrorism and the fact that at least as far as the media narrative in the local press and when I say local I mean the infile press is concerned it always refers to attacks by cookie militants or attacks on the one side by village defense volunteers that's the maithai side and cookie militants referring to perhaps groups like the KNA and the KRA and other groups under the suspension of operations what is your argument or what is your sense on that well it's like this if you look at the terrorism act the UAPA six out of the seven terrorist organizations there are maithai organizations there is not a single cookie organization I think in that list secondly there are the surrendered terrorists there are surrendered not terrorists but surrendered whatever persons who were involved in certain activities ah militants is the better word to use those surrendered militants are in camps and those camps are carefully monitored so where the cookies are the cookies remain where they are and if a cookie goes out of that camp finish the accord is gone right so are the cookie these surrendered militants involved in these killings doesn't seem to be so doesn't seem to be so are these two maithai militant armed groups involved seems a certainty so that's as far as that is concerned what else ah see if you want to get the cookies off their land for some reason we'll go into that reason later but if your idea is if the these communal groups idea is we want to smash these cookies and take their land right what better explanation can you have actually we are not interested in their land we are interested in stopping poppy cultivation right is poppy cultivation going on yes it is is it going on on quite a scale yes it is are the cookies involved yes they are but are other communities equally involved in poppy cultivation yes they are the whole of the northeast the whole of the northeast is involved to some extent at least I know in manipur there's poppy cultivation that's not the real question to be asked who takes that poppy produce and sells it here who are the drug lords that can't be done by poppy cultivators who are the drug lords in manipur who are handling the entire poppy you're scolding the cultivator sometimes absolutely destitute cultivator working on wages that are maybe you're blaming him for the drug problem but who is the drug lord and there was this very enterprising young additional superintendent of police Brinda who wrote a confidential report to the present chief minister saying this is the connection between politicians and the drug lords and that report we have asked for saying give it to us but that report I can guarantee will never be made public then there are stories about that you know relatives close relatives of very high politicians in power today and former politicians in power once upon a time their relatives are drug lords everybody knows everybody can see everybody understands but yeah it's a small town yeah it's a small town so what are we talking we are talking about the drug lords accusing the poppy cultivators hey you guys we need to come and kill you because you're doing poppy cultivators when they are actually the whole you know organizers of the drug trade in Manipur and there's a case filed in the supreme court by persons affected by the drug trade you know for measures to be taken to stop this the drug trade in Manipur is affecting many many young people perhaps not just in Manipur but the rest of India as well perhaps outside India as well so I think all of these issues are of course connected to in many ways at least how far they have been imbibed by the common people of the state down to the media which is extremely powerful in Manipur today particularly in in the local language whether it's the newspapers or the radio of course the internet also had a role to play but as of now it's not in existence anymore a big point in the media has been illegal migrants coming in from Burma off the Kuki Chin sort of broader tribal family and how they are both the ones that are armed the ones that are you know responsible for deforestation for setting up new villages in reserved and protected forests and therefore essentially threatening what the media are defending the territorial integrity of Manipur what do you make of that argument oh that I think that was answered very well by Professor Swand who is the head of I think political science in Hyderabad University and he looked at statistics of the growth of the population in the Maithai villages and Kuki villages and he found that the rate of growth of the Kuki villages was less than the rate of growth of the Maithai villages so these things must be answered scientifically by reference to where did you get these figures from when you say that people are migrating in large numbers what numbers are we talking about and if they migrate in large numbers then you'll see it reflected in the village records because they come in let us say if this is true then they are permitted to have a plot of land then they are permitted to build a house then their children go to school then when they get sick they go to the hospitals so these records will show you the growth in the population of a particular village and going village by village you'll get the exact statistics is there migration I suppose there might be in migration it's a porous border I guess it's a porous border and people will come in but is the migration of an alarming level that you feel it distorts the ratio in the population it doesn't seem to be so at all there doesn't seem to be any evidence to show that this has happened I think that is the answer to this yeah in fact it's also reported in yesterday's paper that the cabinet's own Manipur State Government Cabinet committee that looks at this aspect has found around 2,000 in total illegal migrants so that pretty much so that's miniscule yeah that's miniscule so why are they saying this in migrants we've got to stop them poppy cultivation we've got to stop them why are they coming up with these things are they not simply excuses to justify a military style attack on the tribals that's the answer that's the answer finally Colin you have to take this conversation forward because by all official accounts I think this mass scale violence has already come to some kind of an end I think the union home minister Amit Shah at the all party meeting yesterday also said that since June 13 also there has been no killing in Manipur police control room has said that most districts are now normal so moving forward on the cookie side since they are who you are representing is there what is the demand would they like to return to the places where they lived is it even feasible that in the short term or even the medium term that infall will see again a sizable or any kind of cookie population well though I received this news that the government says that the killings have stopped with a certain degree of skepticism I would be happy in this instance to be proved wrong and that the government is right but I've heard this three times before and after I heard these kind of statements that the violence has stopped large numbers were killed I'm not sure I'm not sure at all and I don't trust the government at all and I don't trust these statements at all and it will be a huge tragedy if this lulls us into a sense of complacency which is that really government and the police have to do nothing because the fire has gone out by itself so you do nothing and then the killing start all over again the killings will only stop if the assailants are arrested like I said and we are focusing on that we want the assailants arrested and as long as they remain in society can you imagine the killing stop but this group of 200 300 armed people remain in society remain to train other people remain to spread hate will it not erupt any day is it a permanent peace to have them like that and can you sweep a kind of ethnic cleansing ethnic cleansing of tribals under the carpet by saying oh the ethnic cleansing is over it's done sorry sir now nothing has to be done no action has to be taken we've stopped the ethnic cleansing we need punishment we need justice retribution we need those guys to be hauled up before the courts put in jail nothing else all these promises I don't believe start again tomorrow that's why our first demand is arrest these people our second demand is reconstruct the churches reconstruct their homes reconstruct the villages that were burned to the ground at the expense of the state the Home Minister said I'll pay 10 lakhs for those dead so we have 100 cookies dead so I'm looking at 1000 lakhs right if my mathematics is okay 1000 lakhs not a rupee paid what's he waiting for so pay the money reconstruct the houses do all that whatever and we are watching waiting and watching because we are certain the violence will start we are certain when the assailant is not punished when the killer goes caught free it's a message sent out to the rest of this criminal world that as long as the powers that be are on your side do what you like and that's a fundamental breakdown in law and order it can't be repaired by putting a bandaid and putting a stitching can't be repaired once people with power thing that I can kill those who are poor I can kill and get away with it that's the end of your law and order that's the end of your democracy then it's a model for the rest of the country to follow why will it not spread to other states in the northeast to other states in India chief minister you won your election right the dominant group has voted for you won your election and the minority is dead you won your election congratulations well done important also it's important also I guess to note that there is a permanent minority here with the 40 and 20 divide also a clear permanent minority here in terms of political representation but I think thank you very much Dr. Colin Gonzalez founder of the human rights law network for sharing all of those views as well as the legal aspects of the work that you have been doing we hope of course that you are wrong when it comes to a new wave or a new cycle of violence starting up in Manipur but for that to happen the government clearly needs to take some concrete steps you have been watching news click from Imphal our attempts to report on this difficult complex situation from the state will continue like, subscribe share and all of that of course see you then stay safe goodbye