 Four years ago, five years ago, I had this epiphany. I realized that planners were not really engaging with the de-growth or post-growth debate. And when I realized that I was actually pretty frustrated and surprised, because I was like, cities are essential for the economic growth of countries. That's where actually the economy gets pushed through investments, through human capital, through materials. So I thought it's actually paradoxical that if we talk about the post-growth future, planners are silent voices in this debate.