 Hello everyone, they have our seats very close together up here So this is the business value track and we have some panelists here gonna have a discussion about building a business on OpenStack and There are You know a lot of OpenStack Companies out there a lot of established companies who are building products and services with OpenStack and a lot of different ways to approach it and And some of you out here. I know running OpenStack companies as well and we kind of wanted to talk today about You know the approaches to to entering a new market like this to building out business models acquiring customers figuring out how to play how to get funding and And you know just really look at at building a business and the OpenStack ecosystem from a lot of different angles And the way we're going to do this is we'll do some introductions I've got some questions, but really I want it to be as interactive as you guys want to be so feel free to ask questions at any point and We have a microphone here in the middle of the floor Or you can yell and I'll repeat and you know We'll just go to the audience anytime that somebody wants to wants to pitch in we also have a hashtag if you are Are a social introvert and would rather tweet about us than talk to us so you can use hashtag osbiz osbiz and And we have a Monitor down here. Nikki Acosta is gonna help us out and she'll she'll repeat your questions for you But we may we may poke a little fun at you if you have to ask us that way So let's go ahead and get started just go down the line here if you guys can each introduce yourselves and Tell us a little bit about what you do and how you play an OpenStack. Sure My name is Andrew Stirling. I'm the COO and co-founder of SwissDac We provide we do a lot of development around Swift itself and provide a control management labor switch Which is always a as a product I'm Scott Sanchez. I am director of strategy at Rex space and been there almost two years been involved with OpenStack Two and a half or so. I think this is my seventh one of these and to see it in a convention center like this Is pretty ridiculous coming from where we've where we've come from so that's awesome. Hopefully y'all know what right space does at this point, but been involved in helping a lot of the early companies that were in the community get in figure out how they were gonna get involved and Not only just helping them be successful with OpenStack, but helping right space now along the way My name is Ryan Floyd. I'm a managing director at storm ventures. I started the firm back in 2000 and We just do early-stage enterprise IT investing And one of the big areas right now for us is, you know cloud infrastructure cloud software I've made a couple investments in the open-stack ecosystem Which we can talk about and I think it's I guess just y'all make one statement about it I think a lot of people here because they think the technology is really amazing, which it is I'm here because I think there's Some amazing businesses that will be built around OpenStack Thank you guys. So Any business, you know one of the the big milestones is is you know getting your first customers and Really getting across that threshold of idea and potential to actually delivering something How did you guys get your first customers in OpenStack? You know, what did you learn through that process? Why were they looking to to come to OpenStack? Let's start the answers. Yeah, so it's a great question. I think it's so we are a small startup We have seen a series a financing a couple months ago, and we're rapidly growing right now and This stage rat Where we are at it's not about maximize the number of customer by getting the right Customer because we are it's about the value in the product value in the market getting great customer feedback and That is more important than the number of customers you have so To do what we basically did is that because we are a you know one of the core contributors to open-stack switch Which is the our big store system that there's part of OpenStack We have produced a mass amounts of technical content best practices Guidance, you know YouTube videos. Yes, we really try to be really prolific with sharing our knowledge Which have led to people coming to us asking for advice because we don't have we have no sales people in our company right now We're adding them this quarter actually But that will allow folks who are interested in script to come to us and learn more and we can engage But I think I mean sharing our knowledge. I think it's been the way to go So as I guess you can call us Rex face the first customer of OpenStack We We started from a different place. I think then most other people did and One of the lessons that we learned was that what was working for us as a provider at scale Was not necessarily going to work for the enterprises or the other companies that we're going to Take this and use this technology or to go build for themselves. So we kind of adopted this very You know loop style development effort Ship early ship often type model Which was not the model that we necessarily used in our own data centers to build for massive scales We're you know hundreds thousands of customers. So as we looked at our private cloud business as we look at the Work we're doing that with service providers to help them go build clouds I think the advice that I've always given people is get out get out early and talk to your customers Don't lock yourselves away and OpenStack, you know has grown to this place where it's It's big right. I mean there's there's a lot of code and a lot of projects and a lot of complexity to it So you probably don't want to try and boil the ocean and you know wait two years to ship a product You want to really get out there early and talk to your customers and and get them something they can touch and give you feedback on So Ryan you were saying just a minute ago that you are here because you see a lot of opportunity to build good businesses What do you think are some of the areas that that that startups existing businesses can come in and and fill in holes and You know make good money around OpenStack Yeah, so Well, just to you know the come around OpenStack It is transforming. I think a lot of historical You know kind of IT businesses, so I think you start from that premise what you know kind of the traditional way of selling compute the traditional way of selling storage You know, I believe over the next 10 years. It's gonna just get totally disrupted not only buy it You know OpenStack, but you know by Amazon there's others, but you know OpenStack is gonna be a big part of that So today, I mean you know looking at it today, you know, I let me start by saying what I don't think makes sense You know, I think you have to be thoughtful about what Rackspace is doing and what Red Hat is doing and IBM And I think for example trying to put together an OpenStack distribution. That's tough So what I think what you want to do is you want to create value Around particular areas where customers really are willing to pay you something for it Customers in general don't want to pay for open source. I mean it's open source So you have to think about what they're willing to pay for in terms of value And so a high-level kind of way that I usually think about it is you know The open-source community develops for sort of a commonality across all customers. So take an area like security Not all customers want the same amount of security because with anything in life. There's no free lunch It's a trade-off if you're gonna lock something down, you're gonna make it more secure It's gonna come at a cost in terms of how you have to run and manage that infrastructure It can be burdensome. So my guess is with OpenStack. There's gonna be Security that's gonna get added but for a lot of enterprise customers for example You know it won't be the security that's really required for their needs. I wasn't at the NSA keynote this morning That's obviously an extreme example But I imagine there is a lot of security ads that were made there. So that so that's one area Another area might be you know, don't forget about the Enterprise customers that are not as forward-thinking as a lot of the people maybe here at the conference are You know, we heard from Bloomberg From Comcast from HubSpot, you know yesterday These are all organizations that have enormous engineering capability themselves Most enterprises don't have that sort of capability. They don't have the money. They don't have the time They're running a business So think about products and services that address that set of customers Because that's kind of the next wave. I hope of where OpenStack goes Where it's not just early adopters and people that have large engineering organizations It's enterprise customers that are used to buying more traditional off-the-shelf sort of sort of solutions Just a question to that right so the enterprise customers that are used to buying traditional package software having an integrator come in or Training their people on how to install that and run that Do you think that what we're seeing here through OpenStack that that model is is one that startups or other companies in this ecosystem should try and emulate my gut tells me that Enterprises are making the journey away from that right and that they're they are understanding you look at Bloomberg and Comcast and Best Buy and HubSpot All these folks that are up here. They're making investments to participate in the community and Really change that model with us Do I think it just to quickly address I I think there are those customers But I think a lot of enterprises and I'll just be using it You know the typical VMware customer is not investing a lot of resources in terms of contributing back or trying to Really understand and they want a solution because they've got a business to run and they don't view their Job as technology now. There's companies like HubSpot or the SaaS companies where technology is absolutely critical to them So they get you know, I think it depends But I do there's an opportunity or you know, you take like a Windows customer, right? It's somebody who's been building on windows for years How does OpenStack fit into that and how do you make those you know? Nobody read typically nobody rewrites applications for new infrastructure That just doesn't happen you have to make the infrastructure fit into the applications So if you're not looking at Greenfield opportunities, which I think you know, that's easy to understand how it works How does it work in legacy opportunities? Along those lines, I think this is One of the things that we've heard is kind of a theme from a lot of the users who have come and talked here And maybe there's somewhat of a selection bias, but it does seem like Every company now is a software company, you know, maybe they are not Selling their software, but but what we've heard over and over and over again is that that what's driving these changes internally is basically developers or kings And these companies want to make their developers move faster keep them happier And it does seem like you know, in some cases, it's not their business to ship software But their business runs on software everybody's business runs on software and so it's interesting, you know I mean, maybe there is a shift happening where In order to keep those developers productive happy moving forward They the consumption of the underlying infrastructure is going to change as well Does anyone have a have a question here that they want to throw out? Yes, okay, so do do as open-stack businesses do we need to be molding Open-stack and our offerings to Oracle SAP and and Microsoft. I Think the answer is no and I think I think it is open stack is disruptive for those companies clearly I think they can leverage open-stack in some ways, but I think that what Companies do is to have I mean anything that's destructive you need to do outside of an existing structure And an open-stack initiative for those companies is typically something you do on the side initially Which over time will become major initiative in the company as to sort of scale down legacy infrastructure and I think that's typically what we've seen how companies approach it and and the the the challenge in that The IT spend will essentially go down When there wasn't I think a report the other day about you know going to the cloud you basically every dollar spent in the cloud You're moving between four and five dollars of traditional IT spending and I think that's that's what customers are looking for And I think it's going to impact those additional vendors in a really big way You can only move so fast in your business when you're relying on someone else's roadmap, right? And so all of these companies out there that have made these large investments into these ERP platforms or you know other platforms that are really powering their business that they made decisions on ten years ago They're looking for ways developers are looking for ways to embed themselves in a platform movement like open-stack and a lot of the new open-source development technologies and frameworks out there to Start plucking pieces out of what those older platforms used to do for them and really have a have a step to say in their own destiny right to show up here at the summits to work in the in the communities of the Industries that they're working in and really drive faster than the vendors that had been you know Delivering their own business strategy through their software roadmap, right? They're trying to get away from that and open-stack It's one of the real things that's driving their ability to go do that So Raphael you joined us here. Would you? Excuse me. Would you mind? Introducing yourself and just letting everybody know who you are as well Yeah, I'm the CEO of in advance, which is a French company specializing in open-cloud technology And we are one of the major contributor of open-stack and the SAF Project and we are based in Paris and Canada Montreal Yes, so you know you you are outside of the US and I know that that you've talked before about How you know in the US it's very Amazon centric when people think about clouds, but it's different in Europe for instance You know why why why is it different in France? Why do people have a different attitude towards public clouds? The first reason is because we want to keep our data in the country And I think if Amazon open data center in France, it would be different maybe The second reason is because we are not really ready yet For the cloud infrastructure and in terms of business development The infrastructure part the software the adware is not the problem in France. The problem is more the change management in the large company we have The syndica which are very powerful organization to defend the right of the employees And it's good, but When you want to change something and we want to redefine the function of an employee It's take time a long time and when you talk about cloud project It's not about the server the infrastructure just a tool to do something new and to do something new in the cloud you have to Use the API you have to give more power to the developer team You have to break the separation between the IT team and the software development team, etc etc, etc, and in France this is the main problem for our customer It's how I can reorganize my company to be able to Exploit the maximum of benefits of the cloud infrastructure. It's not about technology. It's about people. Yeah, so So Ryan I've run into several people here who are at this summit and they are starting up businesses around OpenStack and You know right now they are kind of at that at that very early Idea, you know first kernel of an idea stage for their for their company You know you are an early-stage investor What is just some some general advice when you're in a hot space like this? I'm sure that you hear OpenStack pitches and you meet a lot of OpenStack companies, you know What's just some advice for how to approach? Funding and kind of getting into business customers first funding first product development first You know what what are the different approaches and what's what's your input on that? Well, it's a it's a long it's a long years. I'll try to make it short, but the it's a lot in that Simple question come on. How do you start a company? I'd say number one in OpenStack because it is such a big project. I think focus I guess to be the first thing I'd say you really got a focus right now Because there is a lot of large companies there's quite a number of startups and just OpenStack is huge in terms of a project and To expect it, you know Anyone is gonna have be knowledgeable enough in all the different areas to sort of go at something. That's large. That's not credible Let alone You know the amount of money it would take to kind of go do that So I think focus would be number one I think number two is you know trying to vet it with some With some potential customers what you know be really crisp about what is it? What is the value that you're providing? Beyond just OpenStack in the ecosystem and where do you kind of fit into the ecosystem? Who's your partners who kind of might be a competitor? And and try to kind of understand that because I think that's important to how you think about building the business And probably the third thing I guess I would think about is really how are you gonna make how are you gonna make money? Because in open-source And make yeah, I mean it may sounds grass. Why don't I think about that? I mean an open-source is tough It's tough to kind of balance between you know community and the kind of want of open-source versus Creating a business and I think my opinion having invested in open-source companies before It's very important to be thoughtful about that at the very beginning because if you're not you can get crossed up very quickly So Anders what model did you guys choose and for your revenue and to you know to make money in open source? Yeah, we it was it was a really interesting process. So we building a store with a storage company we're building and We need our basic our research homework due diligence before starting the company. We talked to a lot of people in storage Everyone we talked to said you got to build a hardware appliance. That's the model of the storage okay then we talked to customers or prospective customers a lot of them and Said we said you want an appliance. No, we don't want an appliance We want software and we because we can procure our hardware cheaper than you can and we want to have control of that layer So so we decided to do something what which is sort of the experts in the in the storage in the industry was sort of the Default model had advice us against but it was the right thing for the customer and what they were looking for specific around the open-stack Swift Swift was The the missing part is sort of the missing part of open-stack Swift was sort of the management control layer And that is what we built out as it essentially an add-on Which we are selling as a product under as a subscription license But then we actually coupled that with support of both Swift as well as The actual management layer, but the two must be combined because if you just to support you're gonna have this combinatorial explosion of versions packages and whatnot and becomes a very expensive model to support and With having a sort of a common not just can we sell a product on top of Swift? But it also allows to get a consistency on deployments so we can support these Our customers at the very low cost as opposed to doing it on a sort of one-off a consulting basis And Scott, I know rack space has several different ways that Obviously the rack space public cloud is one way to do that What about on the on the private cloud going into enterprises? What's the what's the business model there? So for us we take community open-stack code we Put some tooling around it so in a similar model We're not licensing the tooling. It's all it's all open source and our model is that we're a cloud operator So we have you know a huge public cloud footprint that we built and operate with open-stack and with the private cloud We're basically making a portable version of that that we will also operate for customers So they can really focus on using it as opposed to having to have the expertise on how to architect deploy You know engineer and then operate on an ongoing basis So they take advantage of everything we're doing in our public cloud and then we operate for them privately in their own data centers so, you know, we Think figured out a good blend between Supporting the community and then all our engineering goes into the community code Which we then kind of package up and operate for the customer I will say that a lesson we've learned over the past two years more or less being in this business is that The more you can help the customer actually use this stuff the more valuable they will see you In their business. So, you know when you walk through the show floor here Almost everyone there. I don't think there's anyone really there Except for a couple that are focused on using any of this it's still all about go build a cloud And the more I think that we as a community and you know startups If you're here to learn and think about, you know Starting a business here really focus on what people are going to do with this as opposed to just serving that it user crowd That's in the data center operating the stuff because the value is using it not running it and you want all of those customers for yourself Well, there's that So any other questions out here? Yes, I'll take a first stab at this, but we all have stakes in this answer. I think So from rack spaces perspective the question if you're on this other room was you know If you're contributing to the code and then running a business based on that code, how do you? Keep from any conflicts of interest the way rack space does that is through transparency So for example Monday before the summit started We announced that we were going to go build public clouds for service providers and telcos around the world using our platform Instead of just ourselves or for enterprises like we've been doing it's transparency. So we we Early and often the same way you you know recommend the ship code We we ship our strategy out there and make sure that everyone knows our intentions or motivations So that as we sit and design summit sessions as we sit in other meetings There's no question of what what is right space doing with this because we try and just be very transparent with the community with our customers with the market And in our case we tried to admit it's pretty clearly in delineation What anything we do that goes into the core store system which opens that swift that is that is open source of Patritude and in our case of building management control later sort of there is decoupled from that So it is actually pretty clear delineation But I think transparency is critical and I think anything we do in in the coordinates they open source What do you think could be a conflict of interest in this case? Okay, sure, but we are business companies. So if you want to develop a functionality generally Customer asked them for us. So as we said infrastructure just the tool we have to Provide the good features for what our customer wants to do At in advance. We only contribute to the core. We believe the upstream should be the key We have no proprietary features or specific module. We push all in the upstream but you're right sometimes you want to push a new features because a Companies in France and Europe want to have this and our job is to Convince them that it's better to push these features in their dream than to develop Outside the project and have a high Cost of maintenance after that on these specific features. So for me, it's not a Conflict of interest is just what the the market wants. We want to do Yeah, but we make money on the open source ecosystem. We make money because This guy develop a features because this guy develop a features. So this is a This is a rule we I develop features. I give it to them. This is the key is open source Doesn't exist if we don't play the game I think that that speaks a lot to what you were saying Ryan where you have to find the the value around it and stay out of areas that are too crowded and They're just core. I mean, I think it's core like to your corner. You know, it's a feature you contribute Just a senior your competitors are gonna use it. I don't see that as a conflict That's just the reality of you know of the core project Versus something that's maybe somewhat more of a satellite So the comment was you may want to delay Contributing a feature because it may give competitors some kind of unfair advantage in the ecosystem If that's the mindset that you're going into in an open source community like this It's the wrong mindset. It just means that you don't have enough value to add to your customers outside of that I would be my comment to that if you think about it. I mean we operate in some Enormous markets. I mean computing networking storage. I mean these are like tens of billions I mean hundreds of billions of dollars markets and this is about growing the pie And I think if my competitor takes what we contributed the core We are that's that's awesome Because ultimately we are operating some enormous markets here And I think if that can advance the overall size of the open stack market, we are gonna be better off Yeah, I mean when when rack space said we want to Let's go create open stack. Let's take some of this code that powers our business and release it to the world along with NASA People are like you guys are crazy, right? Why would you do that and well aren't you all glad we did right like look look at what this is Work for rack space to exactly right? So Anders to that point You know, these are massive markets and we're talking about conflicts of interest and enabling competitors But who is the competition that you see when you are going out and selling, you know your storage tools Are you are you primarily competing within sort of the open stack ecosystem? Are you going and competing against? Existing storage installations, you know, what what are the what are the competition out there? Great question. It basically falls down in our case two categories We work with with customers that grown to such a scale using public clouds that they're bringing things in-house In our case is predominantly Amazon S3 They're they come to a point where the one want more control the data. They want lower cost more flexibility And in those cases we people coming off the public cloud and bring it in-house Then we have folks the other category of folks that they have used traditional storage solutions and That haven't really met their need or that or it has met their needs, but it's been extremely Expensive or complex Let me for instance, you know, you know one of the benefits of Swift is that it can support a really high degree of concurrent users With a traditional store system you could achieve that but it's going to be very complex and very expensive We have to shard your users. It's it's a can be quite messy And those customers needs really has not been met by existing storage solutions And I think they're coming off those those traditional type solutions and I think a huge driver in that is to move to using off-the-shelf commodity hardware Using even things like not even enterprise drives using desktop drives Which has a fundamental impact on the economics of the hardware you're procuring because if they're built the properties of Swift We work around that so I think that's I think those are the two primary ones Scott what about you? The decisions that we see from customers, especially big enterprise customers is not necessarily, you know, which Which provider of OpenStack solutions to use it's Is it going to be OpenStack or is it going to be the old way that we've done it for a long time? The old vendors or the new vendors is more the question as opposed to vendor a or vendor b from the open-stack ecosystem And when there are multiple OpenStack Folks involved it's more collaborative. I'm finding then competitive You know someone may pick something but want some more management or want some integration services or you know help getting started or You know they put multiple pieces together in the ecosystem because we have all started to do a good job of differentiating on the value We're bringing as opposed to while you either buy open stack this way this way this way It's not I'm gonna make a decision for OpenStack and the community has such a strong alliance to the trunk in the core of what OpenStack is and we're all you know moving towards this model where we're differentiating at the edges as opposed to in the middle Which is great And so I don't think there's so much competition today It's competition with the old mindset of well If I just put another few million dollars into this system or that system that I've had for a long time I'm not gonna lose my job But man if I do it this way with OpenStack, I'm gonna really accelerate my ability to innovate my business And so that's that's the decision point that we see customers facing. Okay questions anyone Right right here on the inside So what is what is the makeup of a team to set up an open-stack deployment need to look like the answer Great We have a Several team in the in advance you need a network engineers because If you want to build a big cloud infrastructure as a network and the storage will be the most complicated part We also have DevOps team Which Competence in System administration, but also in development And we have a sort team on Python development I would give you some other advice which is according the term crazy cloud which is when you Download the code and they go lock yourselves away for a period of time with people that have never done this before and Go build something that no one else could recognize when you're done So please don't go build crazy cloud There's lots of folks here and in the hall that can help you with all the learnings that we've had getting there And you know there's a giant ecosystem of people that can help you so don't don't try and necessarily just go at your Go get some help would be my advice right and it's and it's also a It's Every time it building it yourself is not necessarily the right answer in all cases I think it's important to look at both both. I think Downloading the open source bits. I mean trying them out and again a good understanding for that is going to be important But also look at you know, there are vendors to provide it expertise because ultimately many of us the value we provide is is Reducing the amount of complexity you have to deal with and I think that is a you can build that or buy it And as you have to think through that and you know, Rafael mentioned networking We spend a lot of time with networking has nothing to do with Swift But it's you have to really think through those layers and having those those folks on the team. That's really it's critical for any deployment So there was another question over here. Yes May I just just take I'll take a stab at it as quick. I think it's kind of related what I said earlier The way I see open stack from an enterprise anyway, it's gonna be it's gonna be like 80% of what every enterprise needs But there's gonna be that 20% unless I'm making the numbers up But there's gonna be some margin that is gonna be unique to each company in terms of whether it's security or whatever And so I think that's the piece that I just don't see it getting marginalized because it's just not in open stacks Best interest to incorporate all those burdensome characteristics for a small group of users No, I agree completely and that goes down to If you're starting to scratch now to go build a business around the stuff focus on how people are gonna use it not how they're gonna install it or Or run it because that that's the part that is going to get easier and easier for people to do So it might there might be a huge opportunity on that still for the next 24 months But if you're looking, you know five years out where did my business go? It's people are gonna worry about using it and if you're gonna go build it You should build something that they can go use, right? The low-hanging fruit is gonna get picked and you're gonna have to do something higher So my question is that When you're looking at funding a company that is built an open stack Is there a requirement for a product or do you fund companies that do professional services and things like that only? Or do you see any risk with that? So I've been wrestling with that question to be honest. I have a good friend in in China. That's got a consulting organization We don't invest in China, but independent at just the services organization. I Say it's a general rule. Let me just generalize Regardless about me, but for venture investors generally are not funding services businesses Because it's hard to get a lot of leverage out of it Where you can where you can add a lot more venture dollars and grow a whole lot faster because what what gates the growth of a Services business is your ability to hire people So my advice to an entrepreneur that's trying to build a services business It's probably better not to take venture money Or if you do a very small amount because the amount of equity you'll have to give up versus the return It probably the math probably won't make as much sense versus a product company where you can get more leverage out of a sales channel Whether it be direct or indirect and then adding venture money on on top is like pouring gas on a fire and you know I think it's a rocket ship and then and then it sort of works and there are a lot of very successful examples of companies that are Known as Services companies, but provide those services on a product, right? So if your passion is to go be in the services business Maybe what you need to do is to go partner with someone that has a product and be the services for that product or Go build something that that fills some of that value and then go build a big team to go help people use it, right? Thank you. I saw a question here. Yes The question is so companies like sugar CRM have a free version and an enterprise version Is that model valid today? I won't comment on sure because I know Larry Augustine really well, so but but Just just generically freemium versus, you know an enterprise one. Yes, I think it does work But I think it depends on what the situation is I think if you're giving users the ability to try a product out and use it and derive value from it before you're Asking them to commit to paying I think it's a great model. I think it's a great way to get people excited about your product It's a great way to get other people using it that that all works what I think doesn't work as a crippled product I think that's a bad experience if you deliver a bad user experience on your freemium product You shouldn't have a high expectation people are going to pay you for it So I think you have to be thoughtful about it depends on what the business is in terms of whether or not that model will work I think it also depends on the the environment to an environment where they're like Linux and an open stack where there are a lot of Good experiences or a lot of options then it then it does become harder to just have the Sort of the basic pay for use there other questions We've got a couple minutes left. So if you've been holding out on your question now's the time to share it Yeah, I would say that it's not out of scope, but it's It's a little early to to figure out exactly what that looks like and it's something that we've we've You know been looking at especially kind of towards the end of this year because one of the one of the big goals that we've had for this year is creating a clear path to adoption and And that's one of the you know if you go and you talk to people who are here that are prospective users Or you know people who who downloaded it two weeks ago, you know one of the things they want to know Okay, what do I do now? So I got I got the download and I need to put the team together or is there somebody that I should go talk to to Help me or should I go download red hats or rack spaces or canonicals and And I think that that It's it's actually really hard to have a good set of answers around that right now Just because of the stage of the market, but I think that over time You know in the next 12 months or so Giving people a clear way to make those decisions, you know, you have it you have a DevOps team You know then here are options for for getting the the building blocks You know the Legos to build your own house you have traditional IT staff and Applications and you want everything pre-built and operated for me It's something like that is is a model that we're thinking of for how to get information out there and try to Create a clear path to adoption Anything else Yes So I'd say rack space and it's gonna sound like a cheap answer I'd say rack space is kind of productize the service Okay, so it's not a consulting organization rack space doesn't try to be everything to everybody It's got a very particular service in my opinion that it offers and it does it extremely well as compared to a Full-blown consulting company that gets hired to do a scope of work and each project is a little bit different and it builds out By the hour and so so it's much more of a product company. Although it's a service I'm an investor in a company called MetaCloud that delivers open we call it private cloud as a service and They basically help companies stand up open-stack clouds and then they manage it remotely on a per-socket basis As a basically SaaS business is it a service? Yeah, technically it's a service, but it's you know, they kind of productize So it's really sass And that was those essentially my comment a few minutes ago Which was if you really want to be in the services business find a thing you can Put that service on top of and even build that thing to go do that I think it's difficult to say if we are a service company or a software company because we have Like 50% of our employees which are software developer but Because we just believe in the upstream and we don't make money on the software development we have to Monetize of the professional services and manage services and this is a in this very difficult with the investor to explain that I Know that because next week we will announce. We just raised eight million dollar to increase our productivity in several countries, so I'm the end of this round and I Understand if you it's difficult to make money and open stack on the service side because the investor doesn't Understand how you can scale Your business, but if you want to contribute to the upstream you have to make money on the service side It's mandatory. So It's a new bar adding and the we have a Problem with all the investors All right. Well, that is our time. So Anders Raphael Scott Ryan. Thank you guys very much for for your input