 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Uli Salazar from Ludwig Uli, how are you man? I'm doing well Bart. Very excited to be a guest here on your podcast. I've been listening for Quite some time now. I definitely love a lot of the features that you do. So I'm pretty stoked to be here Awesome. Thank you. Will you come highly recommended from our mutual friend and Ludwig artist Stephen Wolfe of Sony before he has like since day one Recommended you so this has been a it's been been in the works for a while in my mind and we met at PASIC I was checking out the Ludwig booth last year, which was awesome. Very cool to see everything you guys have going on there Yeah, yeah, it was it was really awesome to connect Stephen is awesome. He's just been a Really good great ambassador for Ludwig Over the years that he's been on the team obviously has been a massive fan of the brand and the product for years And he's used it in a lot of his projects But yeah, we've definitely spent some time going down the gear rabbit hole and just just talking about gear at nauseam I'm sure which which that's what this is all about right now. So So yeah, today we're talking about the black beauty Which is one of the most famous and kind of sought-after snares in the world Growing up it just seemed like to me it was this like like mythical snare drum like almost like Like I remember being like a kid and like, you know, I was in that age of like I was born in 90 So being into like Pokemon cards or something and equating it to like finding a black beauty It's this rare rare super rare thing which it is so Why don't you just kind of tell us all about it and because it didn't start out named as a black beauty, obviously So take it away my friend. Yeah. Yeah, the the what it's now known as the black beauty actually came out in 1919 as the inspiration model It was available in a few different size In a few different sizes that mostly different depths they did do 15 inches It was a six lug drum originally, but evolved over time to Be available as an eight lug and as a 10 lug There's a lot of things about the build of that show that has changed over time But overall the thing that really makes it unique is the brass alloy Obviously the black nickel plating aesthetically is just jaw-dropping and so that's where we've got its nickname from And obviously that the center beat there's just, you know, something sort of timeless about that complete package of that drum That as it's existed in our catalog over the last hundred plus years It's definitely taken a it's definitely built quite a quite a big fan base So one of the things to to note about the center bead that was actually An industry first by Ludwig as well as the side lever throw off amongst many things, but yeah that the center bead Spec on a metal metal shell was Ludwig was first to do that Now, what is that? What is the purpose of the center bead? What does that do? The center bead has a few purposes, but its primary purpose was for support The shells back then were tack welded at the center I think maybe maybe John Aldrich talked about this on your podcast as well But uh, yeah, so so back then the early brass shells that were beaded were tack welded just under The bead there to join the two top half of the drum in the bottom half essentially Okay, and that helped keep the drum in round it definitely made for a much more better Point in the shell to butt the two halves together And so really that's kind of how it came about but interestingly enough That also had played a role into the sonic characteristics and performance of the drum And really any Anytime you do anything to a drum you modify it in any shape way or form It's going to respawn In a specific way and it may be good or it may be bad and I feel like a lot of the times You know there was an intention that that Ludwig went after in a specific design and they landed on An augmentation to the drum nine times out of ten, which is cool. So there's a lot of happy accidents I feel like in a lot of the innovation that went on at Ludwig over the years But now today through like really understanding the principles of The build and working with the engineers and things like that. We we really start to understand What a lot of these components and elements in the makeup of a specific drum does and how that Plays a critical role into the overall performance and sound of the drum Yeah, that's awesome. But I mean in 1919 I'm sure it was more let's kind of figure this out because that was Very close to the the advent of the drum set. Um, so Oh, totally amazing. Yeah, so you said it was called the inspiration model at first Yeah, so it was introduced as the inspiration model and and that that name for it didn't last too long It was offered it was cataloged for quite a few Number of years as the inspiration model But the drum that's sort of got the wider recognition just because of the overall Presentation of the drum was obviously the deluxe model with the engraving and things like that So the inspiration model was just all solid black nickel plating all the way around with brass trimming And by 1923 the they sort of played off of that same theme of the inspiration model and introduced a deluxe drum And and they they threw a few more things at it. Yeah, obviously like the engraving They added Different luck configurations to it as well And that sort of caught more of the attention of players because it not only That it captured this really rich Sound that brass is known to have It just had such a really unique and and really jaw-dropping presentation to it Yeah, the um I don't know the engraving there's something about it that I think everyone just loves which I mean, it's kind of like maybe ringo's drum set as well, but it's one of those things where it just you you think of Ludwig when you think of a black beauty, which I guess we'll get there But it's kind of ironic because they were you guys were not the first people to coin the term black beauty Right. That was slingerland. I believe Hey guys, I want to pause here real quick because what I just said about slingerland being the first To manufacture the black beauty was actually incorrect A friend of mine Nate testa of testa beat drums and the official snare geek on instagram Out of the blue sent me a message saying hey check this out It was an article about the george b stone drum company in a 1925 article Has a stone deluxe drum outfit that features a 4 by 14 Black beauty separate tension snare So as far as I know George b stone drum company was the first to actually coin the term black beauty now going off of a catalog from 1928 That's slingerland. They have a snare drum called the black beauty artist model Which is actually an engraved snare drum So I think you know, you can take it for what it's worth 1928 slingerland black beauty engraved metal drum 1925 george b stone wood snare drum separate tension Black beauty and I will post in these show notes the information about these so you can actually see the articles of the the george b stone catalog from boston drumbuilders.com and then the slingerland article from coopers vintage drums.com Um, I guess we we've had the the bigger fan base to that to that specific drum And we had our our version of doing it as well and through the years of sort of these these older 20s drums really Having such a such a cult following to them there was uh Yeah, obviously the name thrown around because all these old catalogs didn't exist. Nobody knew what it was really called I guess so you see a drum and you and you know, the first thing that came to mind to some people was It's a black drum and it's beautiful. So That's pretty yeah, you can put that together pretty easy. Yeah. Yeah, no doubt actually back back in I think when they reissued The drum in the late 70s. There was a I do remember I have a copy of this somewhere in the house too there's an ad where Ludwig sort of writes the story of how that they adopted that nickname and it was through um, some band director calling out, uh, you know to the the percussion uh a snare percussionist in the ensemble Um, really calling out that drum and and he would he would be like, you know, play play play that beautiful drum that black beauty drum That's what you got to play. Oh, that's so yeah, there's there seems to be kind of a story that the Ludwigs Had and and and also talked about When they reissued this drum and what made it special and how The naming just had a pretty cool backstory to it as well Yeah, yeah, no, so you just said um, and we should we'll keep going down the line But you said reissued because like there's different eras of black beauties where they're more like, um People always say they want the black beauty and then you look at like a 1928 one But what they really want is like a 70s black beauty or something like that for different like Makeup of the metal, which don't let me get ahead. We can get there. But um, so yeah for sure Yeah, take it away from there kind of going back to the early 20s and and walking along the timeline so um by by the late 20s, obviously Ludwig had hit some hardships, um As as uh, William F. Ludwig as the you know, it being a from it being a family brand. They had to sell it off to Um to cg con who at the time owned lady Um, so just before that, you know a lot a lot of what they had offered in the catalog kind of went away I'm not exactly sure. I can't really speak to that I don't know the facts of why they chose to no longer make the the deluxe drum and things like that but um, it seems like they they definitely manufactured quite a bit of these throughout that period of of sort of it's its first time being offered Um, and throughout the years it it obviously landed in the hands of some pretty well esteemed drummers and You know, just like anything else when when you hear a lot of captivating Uh performances and compelling pieces of music being played Um, a lot of the times, you know, if you're a musician yourself or you know, you're you're you're gonna ask a question Hey, what'd you use on that? You know that you know, your performance sounded so great Like obviously the playing had a big part to do in it But you know, how did the instrument sort of influence that as well? And so through sort of word of mouth, you know, I think the word get out that you know, this drum was a thing and and and um, it sort of built its It's uh, it's clout out in the um in the marketplace and things like that. So uh, so yeah after after Ludwig had sold obviously he still remained part of the operation, but I think You know, it sort of cooled down the promotion of this drum, but at the same time I think there was sort of an underground brewing of Clout and reputation and and hype for this drum Um, you know for for the for the you know, three or so decades to come You know post 1920s Yeah Now did um, did wfl continue to make the black beauty under the wfl name? No, no, uh, they um Obviously brass was was the primary alloy when it came down to metal snare drums the first The first Ludwig all metal shell was was a brass nickel plated shell. So the the earlier Ludwig metal shells um from the from you know, 1912 I think is when the first first all metal shell came out And onward those were or through the early 20s before the inspirational model came out or the inspiration model came out Those were all nickel over brass Shells so the alloy was always was always brass and when Wfl drums started started their operations and they were making Brash or metal shells they were still using the brass alloy, but I don't know why they favored the nickel plating Over the over the black nickel plating But it seemed like that was that kind of became a standard look for for some many years when they used a brass alloy And obviously when they switched over to aluminum they try to capture that same Luster uh and tone of that luster by chrome plating it things like that. So gotcha. That's interesting. And I'm sure there was like I don't know my Wfl dates that well at this point But like I'm sure there was some wartime stuff in there as well where they weren't making metal drums in that You know late 30s 40s Period. Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, they really had to sort of retool their factories and and Redesign things so that they weren't incorporating a lot of metal during the the era of world war two And which was the Wfl era So that's where you saw like drums with with lugs and wood hoops and I think the only metal parts really were screws here and there But even down to like tripod stands and things like that. Those were all like wooden base and stuff So it's pretty cool to see the the evolution of drumming of drums because obviously you know back in the early 20s The technology and the and the approach and the understanding of all this stuff was still very primitive and as it It was kind of forced to evolve, you know, based that they kind of reacted to uh, you know, the the things that were just accessible and and and uh available at any given time and a lot of times that meant that they would have to um look at alternatives and alternative designs to sort of Be able to achieve a lot of the same product that they were offering or people, you know, were demanding At this time. So it's always super fascinating to me. I guess I'm like a really big like sort of history romantic in that sense. Yeah, and you are too obviously, so Now I understand why why wolf connected us, but uh, yeah, it's that that era, you know post post 20s. It was kind of It was it was pretty dark as far as you know, there wasn't really much happening with the Ludwig name and the black beauty drum You really kind of have to fast forward To the late 70s. Cool. Well, um Then go ahead and fast forward. So I mean, I'm sure at that point still people were like Using them the drums didn't just disappear. So I'm sure they were they still, you know showed up with I guess a lot of the users of this time from 1919 up until you know through the 20s 30s 40s 50s would be like jazz guys big band. It would be that type of Application, right? Yeah, and I want to say, uh, you know, I could be wrong on this assumption But I want to say that, you know, it definitely I think it it found itself mostly in the scene of of orchestral players Okay, uh Through throughout its existence and that was a really big scene back then like when you think about like What the big music scenes are now and it's like, you know, rock bands and stuff like that, you know Obviously jet jazz had its um had a thing where you know, it was the prominent Genre and category of music Um, but obviously orchestra players, you know, they were they they had a very a very big audience back then Um And I think a lot of these drums existed in that particular genre because of the way it performed It was very responsive. It was very sensitive and articulate Especially at low volumes, you know, one of the big things with orchestras. It's it's very dynamic driven like these compositions rely on the push and pull of dynamics Um, and that's a drum that's that you're able to do that with time and time and time again And I think that's really where it started finding Um, it's principal footing and I think from there. I'm sure it it, you know Other other musicians and drummers, you know talking to their counterparts and things like that and their peers and saying You know, it tried this drum for you know, a jazz gig or whatever And I'm sure it landed on a handful of of primary jazz gigs as well But I think there was there was an und undoubtedly there was a A knowing and a recognition of the significance of this drum Um and its performance without a doubt Yeah, before we jump ahead to the 70s, let me let me ask you about um, and John Aldridge obviously talked a fair amount about it but like Were they always engraved like why don't we talk about the engraving a little bit? Like how did that come about? Was it a single person doing it like the 1920s version of John Aldridge or Like what's the story with that? Yeah, you know, I I don't know too much of the specifics Like somebody like like John Wood, you know, I sort of believe that that expertise to him I mean, he's done it for so many decades now, but I do know That it came it it came to fruition in 1923 And uh at that point that's about four years into the existence of the inspiration format. So um, yeah, it transitioned into into that particular drum and really when when you look at um a lot of these the There's a lot of intricacies and differences in in scrolling as well within the time period of deluxe drums, you know, you have different scrolling of the leaf You know in different ways that that certain corners were done and things like that and I think That sort of represents a different, you know, whoever, you know Probably, you know three or whatever, you know different engravers at any given time maybe But each one kind of had their own specific stroke and noticing the differences in a lot of the strokes and the pedals and A lot of the other designs I think, you know, those are those are obvious indicators that, you know, there could have been multiple hands Doing doing this at any given time But that it's really cool though to know that there was, you know, quite a few different people that they were that that were that skilled to do You know, a really unique decorative Sort of craft like that which which is fascinating and that and that particular thing is what makes all of those drums really special Because at the end of the day, it really is one of a kind, you know, it's it's a You know the specific year a specific person doing it specific, you know, different design and things like that Um, and I and I think that's why so many people cherish those drums. It's it's that it sort of each one has its own identity Yeah, absolutely. And I remember John talking about how at this time it was very Like it had to do a lot with gun engraving Which was really popular at the time and it had that Kind of swirl and all that stuff which you can definitely see like on, you know, like an old Rifle or something like that. It totally makes sense Yeah Yeah, I mean it seems like that was that exceptfully a skill that existed amongst, you know, uh metal workers back then And so I don't know that it was it was a very rare thing But um, I think it was really cool that they sort of transitioned from doing it in and probably where existed the most is in guns And to do it on snare drums people were probably looking at at uh At drummers kind of weird at that time. It's like, what do you do? What are you trying to achieve here? Then once they saw the final product, they're probably like holy smokes. Yeah, let's do that Yeah, that's unbelievable. Yeah, and so people know we're talking about a previous episode with john aldridge Who is a amazing drum engraver? Drum tech for ario speed wagon and he is the founder of not so modern drummer And there's a previous episode with him which you can find that says the history of drum engraving just so you know, so Um, all right. Well, then that's cool. So why don't we fast forward then like you said into the 1970s? um Remembering that I guess it just wasn't being produced from that time where con bought Ludwig and wfl was out on his own Until the 70s. Is that right? Yeah, so, um, Sorry if I misspoke on this too. So the early part of the 30s Or most of the 30s rather it seems like the drum still existed in in at that form of being an engraved drum So it really wasn't until The 40s which is around the time that um That William F. Ludwig left and I don't know if that was an influence to this Existing uh during those earlier years of cg con only Ludwig, but yeah from from about safe to say from about 1941 To about the late 70s. I believe 76 to be exact would be when Uh production of that particular drum or a version of that drum didn't exist under the Ludwig name Okay, cool. That's funny how you just said a version of that drum because you read my mind Do you just like find the recipe book and then Start making it or how'd that go? um Yeah, so 1976 when when they went back to this concept of this black, uh, nickle brass shell um, they basically followed a lot of the the format that they were making current metal shells At this time obviously the brand And mechanisms of these drums like the the throw off and things like that have evolved in design and and adapted a New technologies and form and function and things like that. So when you look at the black beauty from 1976 they basically took the You know the format of a of the supra phonic, uh, which at that point they had been making for A little over 10 years now So they they ended up utilizing the imperial lug, which we saw in a lot of Metal drums as I think that look came into play. Uh, and in the early 30s right about the time of of the the 25th anniversary and that that lug I I want to say that it was a william f. Ludwig design However, when he he he Started wfl drums. He wasn't using the imperial lug. It was the cg con owned Ludwig that was using the imperial lug, but when uh, william f. Ludwig bought the name back um, he it seemed it seemed as though he was very Um stuck on bringing that lug design back under the the the now Reestablished late 50s Ludwig brand. Uh, and that's why I think it was a design that that he Sort of had a hand Uh and and putting together Because I would imagine if it was something he didn't do and it was a um, you know He would sort of leave that behind and focus on you know, a new designer things like that But I could be wrong, but no less. Um By that time, you know, when he gets when he gets the the rights to Or essentially buys his name back from cg con in the late 50s Um, they go through a variety of different metal shell models that they develop Obviously the the super brass and the super Ludwig Those are some of the the earliest Post 1930s um, imperial metal shells that that you that you see And uh, those are both brass shells when one was a nickel plated brass and the other one was just a polished brass Shell and then they kept going with that same format with a center bead shell Imperial lugs and then came the super phonic Um in the early 60s and I believe it's 1963 64 when the super came out and So, you know, you fast forward, obviously the super built built built a massive fan base throughout the 60s Um, and and even into the 70s So so by the by 1976 they basically had a tried and true format of imperial lugs beaded shell um, and by this point, you know, they started a messing with the uh, the the super sensitive throw off, uh, was in existence and obviously the p85 Had a number of years behind it as well So those those drums that that they ended up producing in 1976 sort of took on the format of Super phonics, um, but just with a different shell and the shell that they used basically Was a it was built under the same principles of those aluminum shells. They were seamless um seamless shells center bead with the same flanged Um Bearing edge and the same shaped uh snare bed Now as opposed to the early 20s or the 20s models and the inspiration model the deluxe model Those were Two-piece shells. So now you got a complete seamless shell and you know just by looking at understanding the The the the design principles of those drums To me by default, I sort of feel like it was probably much time Time efficient to produce a single Spun shell as opposed to tack welding Two pieces together like I just sort of seemed like that that was probably a little more time consuming Was that because of the technology of that day that they Couldn't do the spinning or was it like just you don't know What you don't know kind of thing. Yeah, I'm not exactly sure I don't I don't know if they if anybody was was spinning shells that early on Um, I'm sure there was some metal work taking place that that that was utilizing Some some form of of spinning. I would imagine symbols obviously Yeah Yeah, so it just seemed like, you know, whatever whatever Formula they had at the time and they they they were at a point where they they had a pretty tried to intrude formula through Uh, the superphonic if SARS manufacturing goes that they basically adopted a lot of those Those components and principles but just changed the alloy and they they went back to alloy or to the to the brass alloy Now is it this is probably just a stupid question But are there are they basically the same drum except the alloy like you're saying? I mean Um, yeah kind of um, what makes them different is the thickness of the shell Um, I I think influences the the primary difference between the two And and that's a big That's a big component in the design that contributes to the overall sonic performance of a drum So the the the brass shells The black beauties compared to the supras We're slightly thinner And that uh, that sort of opened up the drum a little bit more and made it more Responsive and sensitive and and sort of emphasized a lot of articulation at low volumes because of that that sort of helped that out whereas opposed to You know going a little bit thicker you sort of Tighten up the sound a little bit more Add a lot more focus Um, and and it's not as as responsive at that point So which is probably great for recording, which is one of the reasons why the supras became one of the most recorded snares in history, which um As opposed to having this, you know snare that probably like the black beauty takes more effort to dial it in For a recording. Oh without a doubt. Yeah. All right. That's awesome So now knowing that they're different in that in that um in that way is really cool So at that point in time what kind of players would be using the black beauty because earlier on it was the symphonic guys Um because of the openness and the sensitivity Was it similar in the 70s? Um, yeah, and and I think they were they still catered to to that genre because of the Super-sensitive technology that existed with the super sensitive throw-off Um, and so it became a very revered Uh drum because of it had the sound and the operation and the functioning Um of a drum that that just made a lot of sense for that setting and then on the other side You had the more standard lever throw-off Um, which was convenient for a lot of rock guys, you know, they weren't really Too I don't think that they were really too specific about like a lot of the minute subtleties Because like you said, you know in studios and things like that control and focus really go a long way and um Whereas in an orchestral setting You're playing really large rooms and you and you have to um, you really have to carve out presence in really specific places Um, and to have a drum that that does that like a super sensitive model type type of brass shell, um, you know that that that becomes a go-to tool for that application So it was kind of cool that that they did that and they they also had different snare strainer types even in the 20s as well There was a more basic lever throw, but they had a you know, obviously more advanced Uh sensitive type throw-off mechanisms and things like that So it was kind of cool that you know as rock evolved to be you know to sort of accept and want a more simpler instrument There was also still a demand and a need for a very detailed and an instrument that had a lot of these Um components where you can really fine tune the sound Um, yeah, because they're definitely in tune with something like that and obviously brass has been utilized in instrument manufacturing for many years with with with horns and things like that So the the reason why brass, uh, you know always existed in in drums I think is is obviously because of its its rich tone, you know It just had a sound that was pleasing to the ear and added a nice contrast to All of the other sonic elements that exist within an ensemble and an arrangement. Um, which is really really cool. So Um, yeah, I think I think again it kind of evolved Uh, and it took its form naturally, uh by by the time it got to the 70s And it was it was and it was very appealing Uh to a much larger Variety and type of player and by then obviously had so many genres of music compared to you know, the 1920s Definitely Can you explain a little bit about I know it's this is the black beauty episode But can you explain a little bit about the super sensitive? Like that whole system because I know, um, buddy rich loved it. Um Just take a break and talk about that because it almost has like the dynasonic kind of like Big like extended frame around it. Um, how does it work? Is it similar where you tighten? You know, it's not actually connected and all that stuff. Yeah, so the the super sensitive system basically What it's trying to achieve by principle is not bow The the snare wires it wants to press the wires in a nice even linear way Whereas opposed to the more traditional like swing side lever throw off that that that starts to tend to bow the wires because the tabs Fall, you know, they they don't extend beyond the the snare bed or the outside of the shell Whereas the super sensitive wires extended the tabs extended a little bit further. So, um, you they designed a device that basically pulled That system from both sides upward without bowing it Um, and by doing that you you don't restrict the vibration of the snare wires Um, and again going back to you know, the orchestra type players I mean they they want as much response and even response of those wires as possible Whereas opposed to when you're bowing them and cutting those wires Um, a little bit shorter from the outside of the shell you kind of start to choke and prevent Um, that that that particular effect in a drum to really do its job completely But again, there's there's a drummer for that You know, there's a there's there's a type of player that wants that sound and it wants that to perform and function out of a drum Um, and there's definitely there's definitely a setting for it. So, you know There's pros and cons to both depending on on which type of player you are Um, but luckily, I mean with the Ludwigs have have always been so deep into music and players themselves they sort of understand they Feel like a lot of what they offered in their catalog was an effort to understand all sides of the spectrum of a player And bring out some of the best solutions to help a variety not just one type of drummer But a variety of different type of players Um, the performance style that they were looking for Yeah, that's a great way to put it because it's not about What you may like it's about obviously about your customer And uh, if I say like well, I don't really like orchestral music. I'm not going to make something like that you're just That's not right. You're missing out on a huge amount of you know Obviously customers, but obviously too, you're you're just alienating people. So, um, that's a good way to to look at business Yeah, which I'm sure you guys still do today. Yeah, I was just going to say that too That those are still the fundamental principles in thought that we that we follow when we design drums You know this this era of Ludwig, um, and and all of the the key guys to designers and and and sales managers and directors and marketing guys and things like that um, all of us are drummers and and and we come in with with, you know, some of You know, a lot of us obviously have our innate taste and and style and and perspective on things But a lot of the times we we sort of have to know that that needs to be curbed for the greater thought of What we're doing and I and I always say this about the brand like this is Ludwig is the people's brand, you know, and it's always been that way even when even when the founders, you know, ran the company And and we don't stray from that, you know, we listen to our customer base. We listen to dealers artists educators and The that, you know, we develop products for them, you know, because at at the end of the day I'm not the one buying all of our stuff I mean, I got I love buying drums and I got a ton of drums But, you know, my tastes aren't going to be the same as somebody else's and my taste might not be as mainstream as some other things so You know, we really leave it up to our fans to to really, you know, steer the ship It's not it's not about us On the inside a lot of a lot of people think that well, you know, it's it's the guys with with with the ties and we don't wear ties so So let's kill that thought But no, yeah, I really love this brand because our our fan base and I still consider myself a fan of This brand even though I worked for this brand But I was I was a collector for years before coming here But a lot of how we operate is is based off of Our fan base and we have a lot of loyal fans who are very grateful for that because it really Um, it just makes the whole essence of this operation that much richer in my opinion when you got people engaged And what you're doing and you're taking ideas from people that really appreciate the brand Um, and really appreciate what you do, you know People don't want us to come up with like the next whizzbang technology They do want us to move forward and be contemporary But they also don't want us to forget about the past and I think we've done An extraordinary of that a job of that and I even think that you know The chief did an extraordinary job of that when he was head of the the operation Throughout the late 60s and 70s and the black beauty was proof of that, you know He brought back a drum That didn't exist in the catalog for almost three decades, but he saw the importance of it He saw the cult following that sort of came to fruition from this drum Over the decades of its absence And gave the customer what they wanted and the coolest thing is we're still doing that Yeah, obviously you can still get black beauties now. Um, which is awesome So and I agree with everything you just said there's there's just there's you know, my first real drum set was a Ludwig It was like a nine or ten piece rocker set. Um Which was you know, I think I paid 700 bucks and I got that and then Zildjian like an a medium ride, which I still have pair and new beats. Um Which like I mean those two symbols alone are like worth, you know A close to that amount of money So and I recently re-bought another Ludwig rocker set going down memory lane And uh, it just kind of sat in the corner. So I traded it for the microphone. I'm using right now It's kind of funny. But um, okay. So yeah, I I love Ludwig, but Now getting back on the timeline here So that's the 70s. Um, was it business as usual in the 80s? I mean things got kind of things got a little different in the 80s with all the electronics and all that stuff But did Ludwig stay true? Uh, yeah, so it's a production obviously there's you know, we face our fair share of challenges throughout the 80s You know, as you mentioned as electronic drum sort of came came to rise and also um, you know, uh The import brands or the overseas companies sort of gaining Um, really good footholds in the marketplace and things like that definitely challenged us manufacturing pretty significantly um, but no less. Yeah, the 70 the the The black beat from 1976 lasted to about 1981 and they did do iterations of this drum with the engraved styling as well Um, but these were these were mostly machine engraved So the sort of the detail that you saw in those early 20s drums Wasn't necessarily captured In the machine engraving Attempts, you know, they definitely paid off played off of the same design theme and elements with the flowers and things like that Um, but it just didn't have a lot of that that hand Scrolling, you know that you find in the early 20s drums, but people still love that drum and um, you know, obviously around this time I mean, you see you think about the that that time period of 1977 through 1981 and just think about all the countless like just solid records that came out then but also how How much music evolved at that point, you know, you had so many more genres by that It compared to like 1965 by the time you get to 1976 It's like holy smokes, you know, jazz has evolved to like a whole new thing Rock is a whole new thing and you got this thing called disco and punk rock, you know Yeah, music a different world. Yeah music really took a took quite a crazy turn But no less even around that time you found the black beauty still still, um it having a pretty dominant presence in a lot of Musical works from back then, you know, you think about I was talking to wolf about this I was like, man, what records do you know that uh, the black beauty was on and he talks about, you know, Omar came on The David Bowie let's dance record and he was like, yeah, it's on quite a few songs down there If not, you know, the the lead single off that I know topper heating or the clash used a super sensitive black beauty You know, so you covered like such a wide spectrum of music like that and not to mention whatever else was was going on and That that drum definitely found its way into um, a lot of a lot of You know, really historic studio sessions But I think by around this time even though that production window was very short lived for the black beauty to like Cattlepult and amplify as you know, it's it's sort of clout as this next level drum There was just so much action happening in music then That I think this drum got so heavily utilized that it built up even though, you know, it only existed for You know, another small number of years During that iteration of it By then like I think that drum took off like a wildfire and and you know, it didn't take too much time after that To reintroduce it again So so by I think it was 1983 Uh 81 that They stopped making that drum. So they reissued it, you know that not reissued the exact 20s one But they they they brought the concept of that drum back to the market 1976 last it to 1981 And then by 81 obviously the brand had to reconfigure its product portfolio and things like that as it was trying to sell off to Um another corporation and luckily we got picked up by another musical entity Which was the um selmer corporation at that point And that merge happened through the years of 1983 and 84 And that's when we moved operations from chicago to Monroe, north carolina, which is where we operate out of today um and and also remembered that a lot of a lot of the manufacturing That went on was mostly done under the Ludwig roof as opposed to OEMing stuff with different vendors Um at that time Ludwig was probably one of the biggest drum operations One of the biggest product portfolios for drum set um To exist an even percussion, you know, obviously owning muscer and things like that and Ludwig doing timpani Um, but they met they they did almost everything a lot of the metalwork a lot of the casting For lugs, uh, that's awesome. Yeah, that's rare Yeah, I I know that they they outsourced a little bit of metalwork to local suppliers Coincidentally enough my uncle owned a factory that did some metalwork for Ludwig Throughout late 70s and 80s. My cousin used to deliver their their Their orders to the old plant stuff. It was it was awesome. Yeah, it was so weird till I come across that You know, after I started working for Ludwig, I told my uncle about it. It's like, oh, yeah You should be our account. I was like, what? I was like, dude, why didn't you do? Yeah, exactly. It's like all these years like you knew I was a drummer Yeah, so um Yeah, and and and so by that point, you know, they they kind of have a I would imagine, you know, when they sold that off They started to focus on things that were the easiest to manufacture that sold at the highest rate You know, obviously with with being a big company like that that that's kind of how you prioritize you prioritize with your big movers Um, and you prioritize with the things that you could be most efficient with in manufacturing Um, and I and I think that's that's the direction that they headed in And that would give them a little bit of time to to really evolve at that point too because now they kind of go back to the catalog A few new people come into the picture like Jim Catalano He came in around that time who's a dear dear friend of ours Mentor and he's family without a doubt But if you guys don't know about jcat jcat is is the right hand man to to The chief Ludwig the second he really brought him under his wing Um, and he was he was a torchbearer for the Ludwig brand Um, and the catalyst behind this brand really continuing to exist Up until today without a doubt But anyway jcat also a drummer So the great thing was that you know, even though the company sort of changed ownership You know the keys were in the hands of a man who was just as passionate about drums and drumming As its founders and he's an educator And he he's really a drummer. He's he's he's the drummer that does everything timpani player vibes player You name it and he is a pro at all of it. So, uh, yeah, he he's teaching at Norderdame now He's doing awesome and he's he's still very connected And and in the music community As an educator and still, uh, you know, is is Ludwig through and through Without a doubt, but anyway, so jcat being a drummer himself. I think started to obviously recognize An answer to the people because again, this is the people's brand and by 1988 The drum makes a comeback. So it's just a short number of years that, you know, we see his production of this drum But the interesting thing about the era of drums from 1988 to 91 The black beauties then were offered In with two different types of alloys Throughout the 80s Ludwig consistently made metal drums out of bronze and aluminum Those seem to be some some of the the best Moving metal drums for them Through and through so that's kind of what they what they continue to offer throughout most pretty much all the 80s And that would be like the acrylite and then I'm just assuming like the superphonic would still be sold at that point, right? Correct. Yeah acrylite superphonics, uh, and then you had the bronze phonic that came out in the 80s Um, uh, there was some standard snare drums that they did that were like met I think those were welded though, but and no less. They were still Making those out of aluminum And uh, that's awesome. Yeah, so the bronze phonic came into existence and and that had such a very big following Allen white of yes was like one of the biggest faces for that drum Um, so a lot of this stuff in the 80s from yes was was on a bronze from he actually still uses that same drum Cool. Yeah, if it's if it works it works. Yeah, exactly and uh, man, I didn't know it I didn't know it was like so much like Like, uh, it you know in 1976 it's back in to 1981 and then 88 to 91 It's like it's kind of like, uh, I was just thinking it's like the mick rib or something Yeah You better get it when it's here. Yeah, the snare rock shake it's back Yeah, it's the snare rock shake of snare drums. I love it. Exactly. That's great. Yeah, so 1988 Yeah, it comes back and again for another short period uh to 1991 and those drums you find being a combination of either bronze Or brass and they're stamped underneath the butt plate. There's a bz if it's a bronze model and there's a br if it's a brass model Um, those were offered in, you know, the different depths and sizes as well as the throw-off combinations And there was a new style of of engraving on these now. Uh, they didn't do so much the machine engraving Um, I think that era Of drums was the first that aldrich started doing for Ludwig. Okay. I think you're right. Yeah Yeah, and then there was there was a few more other guys and also a gun engraver too that was local in north carolina Uh, who also did a few so Even that era of drums because you had a few different hands doing the Scrolling work is a little bit different too because obviously everyone had their own touch and flair With the tools so yeah, um, but yeah, that's a very short short window There as well but the bronze Of that era the bronze version of the black beauty It seems to be like the unicorn like the one that's that's like the gotta have drum if you can find it Now what like sonically is different From the bronze to the brass The bronze is is a little bit more of a brighter alloy, but it's just as responsive and sensitive as brass It's just not as dark sounding Um, got it. So yeah, I just had something special just because of the the the brighter presence that it has Gotcha, and they were still black so it was black nickel over bronze Yeah, they looked identical like you really can't tell them apart and that's why that's why they stamped them Cool, man. So then so then uh, and that was in the early 90s, right? Yeah, 88 to 91 88 to 91 Okay, cool Then how long did that shamrock shake uh phase go before it, um came back? I love that. Um I I want to say It may be the the 2000s is when when it comes back I'll have to ask jcat actually uh to be a hundred percent certain Because he's he'd be the one that that brought it back both of those times But but but yeah, it looks like it it was by then and And the the manufacturing of it also evolved. That's the one thing you got to understand about that drum Is that it went from being attack welded shell to being a sponge shell to then being a deep drawn Shell to now a hydro form shell, which is the best Version, um, and I'm trying not to be biased like I'm not saying I work for Levick today But but no I having experienced, you know, each one of these in in the past You know, there's something unique to all of them for sure But uh, um, for those of you that that don't know, I guess I'll explain What what a sponge shell and a deep drawn and a hydro form shell is but essentially A sponge shell is just taking a flat disc of metal and you kind of spin it into shape using You know a kind of lever device Uh that you spin over A a molded figure of sorts and you sort of spin it into shape now the Some of the the cons about that Is that uh, you're you're you're putting a different amount of Friction and heat to that alloy every time And when that drum is completely done in 100 cured There's a lot of inconsistencies in the way it's cured from the top of the shell to the bottom of the shell Um, and so that has a tendency to affect The integrity of the shell in general as far as roundness goes and as far as the Again just the the the final shape that it takes And that could vary from operator to operator to it and in the way that they handle Spinning spinning the drum so they're like symbols those particular drums tend to Sound different one after the other You know no two are completely alike And and that's why you know when people find the drum like it's the drum, you know And I know a few cats, you know studio techs that you know have a black beauty and they're like no This is the black beauty. It's not just a black beauty. It's the one And yeah, like like john said of if you find one that's in perfect condition. It's probably not The one yeah, yeah, exactly and and the cool thing You know and that statement makes sense because well, well, yes, they were put under different Different tensions then and and no two were really a hundred percent alike Um, and then the other, you know, then that evolves into being a deep drawn shell And what a deep drawn shell is and I think we we did deep drawn from like the late 80s Um throughout the 2000s or no, I think when we started in the 2000s That's when we did deep drawn and that lasted maybe until like 2011 2012 Okay And what deep drawn is is basically you you take a flat sheet of of metal And uh, you form it into you press it into different cavity depths So you press it once into one cavity depth you press you then you move that same block of of material Into another cavity depth so that you can further Draw it down or punch it downward Until you get to your final depth So obviously for like a five you probably don't have that that many processes But for a six and a half you would have a few more That's the way it was explained to me. I I wasn't around to see that that's the way they did it But our our supervisor that that's in charge of metal shell operations in Monroe Kind of broke it down to me and I was like, huh, that's kind of cool because I've always heard it described as spun Deep drawn and I'm like so the way you're explaining it. There's completely two different processes. It's not the same thing He's like, yeah, I don't know why they would put those two together because The operations are completely different. I was like, huh interesting So there could be people that do a combination of both but the way we've done it It was either one or the other so just to picture they heat it obviously and then just like Push it into a mold, right? Yeah, and then and then if it so maybe like you said a six and a half You can't stretch it that far without compromising the you know the metal so then you can stretch it back the other way Oh, that's cool. And and what hydroforming does is is basically it puts it It takes the same thing you start with a flat slab of brass and you you put it over a um a cavity And this one it because of the strength of hydroforming you can do it in one shot So I and I I've seen this done. I've witnessed it with my my own eyes and basically It's this massive machine with I don't know how many Tons of pressure this thing can put out but it it it definitely can crush your skull without even Any effort, but anyway, it's good to know. Yeah Anyway this thing They call it the skull crusher. No this machine basically Takes this this this blank and and just basically shoves it in one shot into shape and it's like holy smokes So that just happens. Yeah, and and it's funny because when you see that the the spun process Like it makes that look so primitive and it takes forever So when you hydroform the great benefits from hydroforming are not only in the integrity of the shell But it also improves your product yield and you're you're producing a lot more product a lot quicker Which is great because the demand for this drum hasn't gone away I mean we sell boat loads of these year after year And the great thing about today's drums is uh, well our lead times are much more reduced the consistency and the roundness Uh of these are are far greater than ever before because they do an annealing Uh to the material which is basically it's kind of like a a temperature cure um the way it was explained to me and and it basically ensures that the the The the alloy is formed at at a regulated consistent temperature from start to finish Gotcha. Yeah, and so and so today you can pull, you know, you can go to any drum shop that's got You know two six and a half by four teens on the shelf Pull one and pull the other and they're gonna sound the same Which is great, too And the reason why that principle is so valuable today When when you're a touring drummer, uh You know, you you you the best practice is is to take a spare, right? And you want your spares to not Be significantly different. Um than your main. I mean you just want it to be Exactly what it normally is supposed to be Uh and the cool thing is what today snare drums because of the consistent season in in our manufacturing processes There is no difference between the sound of of your a black beauty and your b black beauty Yeah, as opposed to before where it's like, whoa, those are completely different. Yeah. Yeah Like I'm sure there was times where like an engineer is like, what the hell did you do? And it's like it's the same drum. It's like, no, it's not You know, it's different. It was not consistent So what is so it's hydra or hydro form? Uh hydro form Well, I'm trying to think like what is that so What does hydro mean in that? Do you know what that would actually I think that has something to do with With the skull crusher machine I'm talking about Like it's like it's a hydraulic type of machine. Oh hydra. Yeah. Yeah. Duh. That makes sense. Um, so, uh Cool. Yeah. Well, that's good to know. They're they're more consistent now and and uh And all that good stuff. So that's I'm that's really cool to know those different, you know, that it's evolved over the years and So like like I was saying before where people say they want the really old ones But maybe the tack weld ones Really aren't what you want. You'd want like if I guess the new ones are really, you know, if you're recording and gigging That's probably what you want is like a nice consistent one that has the hydro form as opposed to even the the spun Which could be less consistent as well. Oh, yeah without a doubt without a doubt and that's that's kind of the thing You know going back and you know My notions on it are not to to dog, you know, a vintage drum in any case. I'm a vintage guy myself We're all you know, we all have a deep appreciation for the stuff But you know, some of the the headaches that I get that I'm sure many people get with vintage gear sometimes It's like it tends to to do one thing and one thing really well And when you find the drum it probably does that one thing Really well, but if you wanted a drum that you could really push to Uh endless limits, you know, that might not be the drum, but drums today It's just like anything else like cars, you know, you look at you know technology and in the automotive industry, you know So on and so forth. It's like everything's involved. Everything has evolved to maximize and amplify Um the integrity and the operation of that unit, right? And that's basically where we are with drum manufacturing You know, we're we've evolved from a lot of the primitive understandings and approaches Uh and and with great respect to that stuff because without having done that We wouldn't have been able to get to where we are today. Yeah, which so basically Since it came back in the 2000s it's been Available correct like it didn't go away again. It's it's been available since It's it's a rival back in the 2000s, right? Correct. Yeah, so it's been available and we've done Quite a number of different things probably the other thing I should have mentioned about its reintroduction in the late 70s is that The format was consistent mostly to 10 lugs because that was uh or only to 10 lugs because that was the format for superfonics um and things like that um And and as time went on that tended to be the preferred and consistent format However, the drums of the 20s were mostly eight lugs. They did make some 10 lug versions uh, but majority of them were eight lugs and and um By the 2000s, you know, we kept that same format, you know throughout the late 70s 80s as a 10 lug drum up until Last year Last year was Ludwig's 110th anniversary, which also coincided with the 100th anniversary of the black beauty essentially the inspirational model um to be more specific and um, you know throughout the 2000s Obviously, we offered different versions of the 10 lug black beauty. There was a hammered version We had a version with with with dicas hooves and you know, we try to augment the shell a little bit We do a lot of hammering in house already for uh for timpani and um You know, we started, you know, we started to do a lot of hammering for drums in in the 80s and so on and so Uh, when the black beauty came back, you know, we offered hammering on super and bronze And of course we would offer that on black beauty and things like that So you did have different flavors of of the black beauty throughout the 2000s Not only did it change in in the manufacturing And what that did to the sound but you also kind of had a different format that you can choose from and what hammering does for Many of you that that that may not know Hammering dries out the shell a little bit and adds a little bit more focus You can you can kind of think about it as the the same principle to you know In symbol making when they over hammer a symbol, it's not as as you know, it becomes a lot darker and drier not as sizzly and you know, uh, resonant things like that and um, yeah same same principle applies to uh To hammering i've also noticed um hammering to also put an emphasis on the body on the low end Uh, which is kind of cool, especially on five inch drums like five inch hammers supers. That's like if you haven't tried one of those Try one of those. They're pretty gnarly Going back to um, the ten look black beauty and you know, we get to the anniversary of the 110th anniversary of Ludwig and Knowing that it was it coincided, you know with the anniversary of the inspirational model. We sort of wanted to go back to um that format Or a version of that for not that format a hundred percent, you know with the tack. Well the shell things like that Um, but we went to an eight lug format on brass, which we haven't done since the 20s Um, and then we we did that uh with Just a standard black nickel brass shell Uh and gold trim just like the inspirational model Um, and and again, those are probably the rarest of of the black beauties. Um Um Is is those early inspirational model? I've only seen one in person. Uh, and I didn't even know what it was the first time I saw it Yeah, if we if we got a little bit of time I could get into that story Basically the drum is steve albini's drum and it lives at electrical audio the studio and um You know, I worked with steve on on repairing a few things for you know The shellac gear and Todd trainers one of our artists. So that's how we're all connected and I reside in chicago there in chicago So on and so forth But anyway, he one day I was at the studio and he's like, hey man, the throw off on this drum doesn't work I don't know what it is somebody That was here recording once like in the 90s Went down the street to this thrift store and bought this drum for like 25 bucks and came back and recorded on it And just said I could have it And and I looked at it and I was like, well, it's a Ludwig. Uh, I just don't know What because I've only like the only black nickel plated shells I'd I'd ever encountered where a scrolled one or a nickel over Brass drum So I was like, I don't know what like there's no evidence that this was painted over the scrolling or whatever And then finally, uh, I got some of the early 20s catalogs and I was like, oh holy smokes Like this is This is one of the early ones And uh, yeah, I paid $25. Yeah 25 bucks, dude. Oh my god. Yeah, it was I couldn't believe it. I was like, dang that's awesome and Yeah, I ended up kind of rigging a throw off that that works from Contemporary piccolo throw off that we have but um, yeah It was really cool to like hold one of those and play it But he says that drum gets used a ton He's like, yeah people just flip out about this drum. I never knew what it was and then finally Um, I found out what it what it was. I was like, oh, it turns out it's this and it's pretty cool that you got it God and you said it was the inspiration model. So it was the early early early. Yeah So it was, you know, something from 1919 or you know from 1919 and 1926 whenever that stuff was made being used at that studio I've seen videos of his studio. It's just like it's such a cool place. You're lucky you get to hang out there, too That's awesome. So that's actually a perfect segue because I was gonna ask you as we kind of get close to the end here So has it always been this? drum of like Legend that is so Collectible and everyone wants it did or did that start in the last 20 years or is that always been the case? I I think it always was the case but only grew to grander scale over the last 30 years I'd say gotcha But yeah, again going back to, you know, you know, all those records being cut in in the 80s and things like that and people Like freaking out about like those sounds and those tones and things like that Um, it wasn't a lot of stuff when you think about it, you know, that it's on I think it was um Some some of ride the lightning by metallica And Lars was using I think it was the the drum from death leopard. It was his black beauty that he was using on that um You know, as I mentioned topper heating of the clash used it Chris Layton used it a lot with uh, Steve Raven on. Yeah So you name it man. It's not like deep blues cuts. It's on punk rock It's on, you know, wolf told me he used it on like one of the One of the tracks with saline dion that went diamond or something. I was like, holy smokes. So like Yeah, if there's a drone that can get the job the job done It's that one and it has such a fan large fan base because um There's no way that you can't get excited about talking about that drum or playing that drum And when you and when you hear like a specific performance or you're at a concert or hear a record and You nerd out over gear. It's like once you find out it's that drum. You just fixate it on it You know, it's got that special something. I've never actually played one, but I have for multiple sessions had my snare Supplemented not replaced but supplemented with like a slate trigger that is the black beauty setting or whatever. So um, you know, it's kind of a fake version But that the one that was recorded was real and then I just kind of use it to beef it up. But um That's so cool, man. Well, um Man, this has been awesome So why don't you tell people a little bit about you because I don't think we said it at the beginning But you're the marketing and artist relations manager at Ludwig drum. So you're you're living the dream Kind of yeah Well, you know, I It's still I don't take it for granted. I still sometimes it pinched myself like is this still reality? Again, I think I mentioned at some point in the podcast, you know, I I grew up a drummer in plain drum sales 11 and growing up in chicago Everyone has, you know, a very deep Affinity and appreciation towards one of the local Brands or manufacturers, you know, whether it's slinger lin Um, you know or Ludwig or I think camco too was oak lawn for a brief period But for me, you know, I I've always been a massive huge fan of Ludwig just because of the the connection When you're from chicago, you know, you're super proud to be from chicago Yeah, maybe because of the 90s bulls but But no less It came from being a massive fan Yeah, yeah, I became a massive fan of the brand and it led to You know an obsession really of of the brand and the history and the people behind it Once I really start to learn the story of the people behind the brand. That's when my appreciation for this brand grew even deeper And I just I you know, I just try to surround myself as much as I can with drums and I I took on a lot of different roles, uh, whether it's, you know, teching Building my own drums to the point of starting a drum company before Ludwig called Damon drums, which is named after the old Damon factory Yeah, um, and you know working at drum shops that that just specialized in selling Ludwig like that was my game plan to do that and You know, I've worn many many hats and all of them thankfully involved Drums and and and a lot of the times just Ludwig drums, which is which was the best part of it You know to the point where the doors opened and you know, there was an extended invitation to to join The team and I couldn't have been more honored at the time and even now just to continue to do this I got hired a little over five years ago as the artist relations manager um, and You having such a deep appreciation and knowledge of the brand knowledge of of drums and drum building and things like that You know, I started to take on a lot more responsibilities just out of passion You know, I was really excited to be involved as much as I could and I worked with a great team that really embraced having me and having my input and valued that But also The community also really embraced embraced me just as much as we embrace them And that really helped, you know, catapult things and move things to where they are today You know, we get to see really cool things come to fruition and come to market like You know an eight lug black beauty and things like that and There's a lot of cool stuff on the way, you know, we've we've we've kind of It's cool because this brand's definitely Turning a new chapter and I think it's going in the right direction We have a lot of the you know the continued support and the loyal fan base And as I mentioned before, you know, the main ingredient in our recipe is to put the people first you know, they sort of they steered the ship they kind of Inspire us on where we need to go Throughout this whole thing and it's just been really cool. The guys on the inside are great guys on the outside Are are the biggest inspiration? Obviously guys and girls. Sorry. I'm just kind of using that term Oh, yeah, no, obviously, but uh, but uh, yeah, it's it's been a wild ride, man I don't think I would have ever thought I'd I'd possess a key to the to a drum factory. No less It's a Ludwig drum factory Literally, yeah. Yeah. No, it was insane. Like I remember when I put it on it I was just like this this isn't reality. Like when is the stream over like what's going on? But um, yeah, it's cool. You know and things like the speed king are back and you know playing a role and redesigning a box for that Like that was mind-blowing like I love that. Yeah at every point. It's just been it's been crazy. Um, yeah But it's all been super exciting and and again one of the the biggest things You know, one of the funnest parts of this job is is the community You know, you know interacting and building relationships with people like yourself Players educators and everything because you know, we all know why we're musicians and the impact that music has And I think we all do everything that we can to to advocate and support For one another, which is really cool. The camaraderie just always blows me away, especially, you know now that we're sort of undergoing a lot of these very difficult and unfamiliar times, you know You know seeing everybody band together in unique ways and continue to support each other is 100 important But also very heartwarming at the same time. They're very inspiring. So it's cool to be able to blend a lot a lot of elements and activity in drum manufacturing that are are responsible for Uplifting a lot of people and communities of people and that's what's really cool. I think at the end of the day Absolutely and just to put a date on this episode that we are like in the middle of like being quarantined with like the coronavirus And not leaving our houses and stuff. So uh, so if you listen to this 10 years from now and uh, you know, you forget when it was just remember We can't leave our homes right now Um, yeah, and we don't have the McRib or the shamrock shake right now. And it's a shame. Yeah Man, this has been McDonald's has gotten a mad plug at this episode Everyone's like gonna like sneak out and get try and see if they can get some McRibs. Hey, we're not supporting Mcdowns No, there's not about them. It's about Ludwig But yeah, man everything that's been going on and with the new stuff the new speed king Everything is really cool. And I think having a guy like you involved who's younger and just uh Just really in tune with the next generation of drummers Um, it's not like a thing where I don't know. It's it's not like it's gotten old and stuffy. It's still very new and fresh and cool. So, um I think everyone's really happy that you're you know, you're there and you're working on stuff and keeping the brand fresh and uh And man, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show And and and you did a great job explaining through all the like the tack weld and the spun and the hydro Like it was very clear and and I really appreciate that. Cool. Yeah, absolutely. I'm always happy to do it I know that um, a lot of this information isn't so easily Accessible and there isn't one destination for so to be able to sort of sum it all up in one place was uh Really really cool. Um, it really fun. Obviously anytime I get to I get to talk gear and the gears start spinning You know, no pun intended. Um, you know, I it's kind of that's that's you know, that that's that's where That's where I want to be, you know, and so it was perfect big shout out to steven wolf for making the connect Yeah, no, he's he's unbelievable and just like uh So wolf like he reached out to me after like three episodes when when there was just I mean people had heard it, but I mean that's like three episodes This is I'm on episode 40 when I'm recording this right now. So I mean he He called me and it was like midnight because you know how he is. He's a vampire and So um, just to talk to him on the phone. I was like, holy crap. This is unbelievable. You're a famous drummer and uh, It really helped me keep going just to be like, all right people actually like this. So um, yeah I'm glad to see to see this take off at at the level that that it has. I mean, it's definitely Uh, you're the right person for this. I mean you have such a passion for it and For for drums in general and that's what it you know, that's the kind of that's the kind of person that that you need Behind something like this. Um, so thank you for for what you're doing For the community and and for the the fan base that you have now But also for you know, the people that are going to come come across this in the next few months and years This is really critical. Like I said a lot of this information is really critical and and it doesn't exist um in in You know a lot of accessible ways and and you're you're doing that you're making it accessible Which is awesome, you know, and you and you're putting you know, you're spin on it You know talking to to different people and personalities that bring a different color to things and excitement Uh and things like that. So it was I'm I'm super stoked to do this and obviously, you know being a 111 year old company. There's tons of product in history to talk about so I'm down to do I mean we can we can pick a product, you know, whenever I know wolf is down to do some and stuff So yeah, yeah, I it's it's so cool. Thank you very much for what you said And exactly you're right where like uh, so Vincent leaf before he did the speed king episode Which we'll have to retouch on because there's a new one, but we could do the acrylate. We could do the superponic I mean the acrylate alone. I think wolf and I might do that because he's he's taking that You know student model drum and playing on Platinum selling albums. Oh, yeah, he loves that drum Yeah, that's another episode. But yeah, man Without cool. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and um Where can people find you? Let's let's say that where where can they find you if they want to follow you and all that good stuff? Um, uh, yeah, definitely you could find me. I you know all my antics and goofiness is uh Is all on instagram for the most part at at daemon drums Um, and obviously definitely follow at ludwig drums hq if you're not uh on instagram and facebook Obviously visit our site uh ludwig drums ludwig dash drums dot com uh to keep up to date with a lot of our product releases We do some blogging on there as well You know do some artist coverage product coverage things like that talk about some shops Um, but uh, yeah, uh awesome to engage with with people when we can Uh and super super proud to always have you know the consistent loyal fan base, um for Ludwig and i'm one of those fans as well Awesome. Cool. Ulia. Thanks so much for being on the show man. I really appreciate it. Yeah without a doubt. Thank you for having me If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast