 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and Don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button. So you're notified for when my next podcast goes live Yeah, he was he was it, you know, absolutely weird sort of case really because he he'd break into these houses where mostly women some men and all elderly all Very very much and those that lives alone and you know been in the house for a long time and They must have felt, you know, so secure in their own bed at night and and He would break in he'd remove the light bulbs or turn the electricity off so they couldn't put a light on it Had their phones. They couldn't go for help and They'd be woken up by this dark figure Looming over them shining a torch in their face the guy who was refused a mission set lights the place 11 people died as back in I think it was 94 and Yeah, it all 11 postmortems in one day that was a That was a bizarre day, you know, you just it was it was just such a And that deals with the the Levi-Belford investigation. So that was you know, Levi-Belford was this horrible serial murderer and pedophile who Is the only man ever to be given whole life sentences at two different trials He killed Two young women in South London tried to kill another one. That was my case. And of course, he'd also killed Millie Dowler Which is was this where you deal with that then at the start But when you get put forward to then try and catch one of the biggest serial calls on the list at that time The first reaction is am I up to it? I'm not gonna lie. That was you know, that's how I felt What we're well, I know this is gonna be really high pressure You know, when you watch, you know, when you read a book or you you watch a film There's always this pressure isn't on the on the detectives can they catch him before he strikes again? You know, that's so common. I was living that for real. That was gonna be my life You know, I was actually literally on me was gonna be that pressure if we don't catch him How many was he gonna kill? Boom, we're on and today's guest we've got former detective Colin Sutton. How are you Colin? I'm very good. Thanks James. Nice to be here. Yeah, great to see you very fascinating stories. You've got a couple of books as well But one of your biggest cases your last case, I think and before you were retired You were called in to try and find the UK's biggest sex predator. He was nearly at large for 20 years He was breaking into old folks houses at 70 and 80 and he was raping them and doing some dartship male and female Well, and thankfully that you can want to see an eventually cotton, but first of all, how are you? I'm very well. Thank you. Yeah, I'm very good I mean, it's been a bit of a manic few days with a you know book coming out and then the drama series coming out And telly and my phone's been a bit hot, but yeah, it's been now, you know, it's been good It's been good. It's both the book and it and the TV series seems to have been really well received. So, you know, that's a great thing Man, especially giving it more publicity as well that some of these times these sick crimes don't get mentioned enough like this guy Was it Delroy Grant? Was on the run for nearly 20 years like raping all women and men and breaking out their homes that Yeah, he was he was it, you know, absolutely weird sort of case really because he He'd break into these houses where mostly women but some men and all elderly all very very much and those that lives alone and you know been in the house for a long time and They must have felt, you know, so secure in their own bed at night and and He would break in he'd remove the light bulbs or turn the electricity off so they couldn't put a light on It had their phones. They couldn't go for help and They'd be woken up by this dark figure Looming over them shining a torch in their face. He was in control. I think he liked that part of it, you know and he'd talk to them sometimes for hours and and Occasionally, he would rape them quite often. He would indecently assault them And then steal virtually nothing, you know, steal 20 quid or few bit few bits of jewelry or something like that It wasn't I don't think he was in it for the money, you know, he wasn't in it to make a profit He really got off on the the thought of being able to go in there and do that to other people. He's just a You know Unique I hope individual. Yeah, power truck became the control. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah some sex shit that but You've got some other fascinating cases calling which we'll touch on later in interview But I always go back to the start of my guess where you grew up and how it all began Yeah, I grew up in in Enfield in North London and my father was a police officer He was a traffic cop actually they say and I went to school in North London No, sort of things the kids, you know played football badly. No, I didn't play too bad Yeah, I played for the local sort of representative side and things like that did okay at school went to university but from about 12 or 13 I really wants to be a police officer So I started off During the men and started off as a PC at Tottenham in North London in 1981 Which was a an interesting place It was it was you know, I think in those days the Suburbs of London were a lot whiter and a lot more sort of genteel in some ways and London's just sort of spread out into them Now, so just six miles seven miles down the road from where I lived in Enfield Tottenham was a very different place, you know in 1981. They have a culture shot. Really. It's very busy. There was a lot of crime there was a lot of Public orders stuff to do at Tottenham Hotspur football club, you know and things like that So I kind of got a good grounding in policing, I guess There's you know, it was the sort of place you either go to sink or swim. I think fortunately I swam How did people treat you if your dad being a police officer? Yeah, it was good really in some ways because I'd kind of grown up with Seeing him and his colleagues and his friends and so kind of grown up within that environment and you know, there were a lot of people There when I joined that knew knew my dad knew who I was and so yeah, kind of I guess it will probably help me that I knew Quite a bit about the kind of culture and what it was like before I before I went in Yeah, so it was just an ingrained in you straight away that you wanted to kind of fight crime Yeah, I think so when I joined, you know, I never never dreamt of being a detective. I didn't I didn't really know what I wanted to do Probably wants to do what dad did in traffic because I've had to ridden a motorbike and they scared me stiff but um, I didn't really know what I wanted to do and it was only really when I did a few Few years a few months working and got involved in investigating crime So I kind of realized that I liked doing that. I like the All I saw mental challenge, you know, I'm sort of guy who does the crossword in the paper Quiznuts in the pub and things like it's just a sort of a mental challenge, I suppose and That's that's kind of how I lent that way and what went down that path. What is did you join the force? I was 21 Was that was that an easel on it then was it to it when you had to be joined? I'd been off to university where I didn't I didn't actually finish I went to Leeds to read law And I hated being away from London hated being I think I was too young to mature If gap years have been a thing that I'd probably have carried on done it. We wouldn't be sitting here, you know But of course, it's what I wanted I gave up after a year and a term and to run the police and Just four or five years later the police was who you haven't got a degree and they sent me back You know, I went full-time to University College London. I did my law degree there Well, and the police force. Yeah while I was in the police. Yeah, how did you manage that then? They just wrote me off duties. I was just doing it full-time like I was a student. That's good one. Yeah Why did they do that? There's a scheme they used to have I think is that you know as a hangover then from the days when far fewer people went to university anyway, and and I'd go on to this sort of accelerated promotion scheme and Every year they ran this scheme and they had six places of people to apply to go into a scholarship University Of course, I happened to be on only five of us who didn't have degrees So we all applied and we all got it and I think as time moved on and Education changed and more and more people were getting degrees. They abandoned the scheme. Why did you not stick to it? Why did you go straight back to police officer? Oh? because by that time I had about five years service six years service and police and I Knew it was the career for me as well wants to do is there a buzz doing it as well even though you must see a lot of dark Scary stuff that is it a buzz to then try to catch people because everybody's different. I've had a few police officers on but everybody I'm kind of Again it for the right reasons, but then as time goes on of all the reasons change. Is it changes a person at the start? Yeah, I think there's something in that I think there's no doubt that being a police officer changed me as a person I think it changed me for the better. I think it made me, you know My son's currently serving not very far away from where we're sitting and you know when he joined I said to him You know that I hoped That he would mature as a person in the same way as I think I did as we saw being in the place So what was it like then getting your first case or catching your first criminal? Oh, I remember the very first person I ever arrested. It was an Irish lady With Mary Kelly Being drunk and disorderly in Tottenham It's funny. I think most cops will always remember the name and the circus us the first person I arrested But I had this this kind of strange career where because I was on this promotion scheme. I couldn't really be Couldn't do the normal path towards becoming a senior investigation officer So I never did the role of DC or DS. I was I was in uniform until I was an inspector So it wasn't really until I was a was a DI and I'd had I had about 11 years service. I think by then that I got involved in in being you know, the deputy on a on a murder and doing serious crime, but I kind of I mean there's a story in my first book I don't relate I relate to it again now. It was I was back in 1983. I was a uniform Constable Tottenham We'd been on doing some overtime and friend and I stopped off at a party that I knew was going on in Emfield And as we were driving home, we saw this shop that was on fire because no mobile phone So Andy and he Taylor who's with me ran down to find a phone box And I managed to get through a shop through a restaurant So that people and get to the back of this shop and go into the fire escape and just got confronted with this place It's completely ablaze. It was a look at have a dashes and sold neck curtains. You imagine how they went up, you know But of course, there was a flat at the very top. There were two people in there that run the shop and they died So it was a murder of it. It was obviously an arson. It was a murder investigation and I feel really bad about it for a bit because I thought oh could I've could I've done more, you know, I was just dressed like I am now and You know, I had no protection at all if I'd have gone in I think I'd have ended up dying with them being quite honest, but The the the house would be in the police. I couldn't recognize this and and I had to go down and make a statement About what I've done and what we've seen and the guy who was the SIO sort of spread it You can stick around and work with the team for a few weeks, you know I feel you're doing something towards what we're known and I've never been into a murder room before on a murder team room and When they sit down and have these briefings and the SIO sits out the sort of head of the horseshoe and all the team recounting What they've been up to and he's kind of keeps keeps this mantra going almost what have you done? What do we know? What does it mean? What do we do next and it was kind of like that and he's writing away in his book And there was it was that sort of moment like the kid that sees the sees the fireman ringing the bell on the fire engine I thought wow, that's that's such a job I'd love one day I can do that. I could do that. I'd love to do that job And of course it took a few years and I got to do it. So once I got it, I wouldn't let go of it What's it like seeing trauma for the first time? Did you see much as a kid before you joined the police force? No, not not at all. No, I mean it's So how is that is that difficult for is that I've spoke to a few police officers and they'll tend to see a lot Turn to the drinking stuff There's not a lot of help for police officers because of the stuff that actually see which is sad But how is that when you see trauma for the first time is it just a kind of get on with your job as I'd help They are for you to speak about it. Certainly back in the 80s. It was it was yeah The early 80s when I joined it was just get on with it You know, there's no there's no phrase that people say if you can't take a joke You shouldn't join the job and they couldn't say in those Circumstances when something horrible happens or something horrible happens to you or whatever It changed I mean changed after a ball water farm in 1986 when I was 85 85 Because shortly afterwards in early 86, I was I was doing a course at Hendon at police College and Bad nursing home there and they had a lot of the officers who had been involved in football from right and It was it was like something from mash and say, you know, what happened there that are I out? Well, it was a it was a rising I suppose Against the ball water farm estate Sorry Freddie that bit Let me get with Thursday football to farm estate in Tottenham was a state built in the in the 60s and For various reasons it had a higher concentration of Sort of problem-quote families as well and high concentration of ethnic minority families and there was drug dealing there's a lot of crime around on the estate and It was kind of a sort of place that was Could be made into a fortress if you know what I mean There's sort of three entrance points and you've got these big buildings and walkways and very difficult place to police Now I was a community officer there about three or four months and very difficult time of service And by the time October 85 came there was you know, there was a lot of resentment about how it was being pleased and There was a an incident and Then there was a deputation after the incident was was a woman died at her home not on the estate after a police search During a police search and there was a deputation went to the police station and tension had been quite high and it Turn you know ends up with a few things being thrown and then it all went back to the estate and there were false calls made to police to Call them on to the estate and then they were attacked bricks and bottles and Petrol bombs and the whole thing just carried on for for hours and of course During that time there was a fire engine fire crew that tried to put a fire out on the shots on the estate And they were given a police Serious group police officers trying to take them and they were all attacked and as a result of that Two police officers kind of fell over and say we're trying to retreat one of them keeps plate lockers was murdered And the other one was was seriously injured and Yeah, I mean it was It was a kind of dark day in in Policing for so many reasons, but there were a lot of people there who saw things that traumatized them greatly and Say I wasn't there Thankfully, I'd been transferred to Sergeant by then I was working elsewhere, but You hung around in Pendant at that time and there were you know, there were dozen or so people in the nursing home who were suffering from What we'd now recognize as PTSD and I guess it's the only days it being recognized in the police service then And and it was a powerful image to see the effect that Being involved in something like that can happen on a human being What was the first bit of trauma you it sticks out in your mind where you think shit man that and you probably didn't realize it then that affected you but you look back and you think okay, that was a Trigger point for something. I think the one that I really remember was funny enough my very last day of duty at Tottenham and We we had to deal with the road accident where Essentially because the traffic for the football match that was a car tried to do a three-point turn to high road and was T-boned by Much heavier cars an old mini was the car that did the three-point turn it's a big rover that hits it as a bad accident little girl who's in the back of the car for a girl girl was kind of thrown out through the side window of the mini and died and And say it was my very last day of new years new years day you know it's kind of a after the whole day and I was acting as sergeant in I was getting promoted literally the next day and I'm going off on my course and the inspector asked me to do various things but deal with with the family and Go and see them and yeah, it was It was the first time I come face-to-face with recently bereaved people and Where that reading was a charm and you kind of got two things there And it was just also senseless and so hopeless and you know So bank holdings little girl in the back of the car They're just trying to get through the traffic to see their family. How do you deal with that then Colin? Especially later on in your career when you're trying to kind of come away from it all and yeah, but Yeah, it's that there was certain I Delt pretty well with the fact that there were things that I saw And experienced that most people don't even know about let's see, you know and and that there is a whole Different world to the life that you and I live and you never know how other people live their lives And what happens in those lives? So I I kind of separated that out pretty much from from the beginning and pretty early on and I guess I developed a thick skin and I guess that it was only The few occasions when that thick skin was pierced that were the ones that I really remember, you know and some of those, you know, I've been lucky enough to be able to To kind of share by having them dramatized in the two dramas and Probably a mark of how good the dramas are but I feel all the same emotions when I was watching it being inactive Decided at the time one of those in the most recent series was this business of this woman who was she was actually 93 years old and She went she's grasping my hand Whispering to me he interfered with me, you know and my head spun. I just I Knew that I had to carry on being professional and do what I had to do But I just wanted to burst into tears and to have that, you know, because it was just this lovely old lady what she'd been put through and It kind of Pulled it home to me that there's you know, there are there are still things that I can find emotional and In some ways I'm pleased about it because if you do 30 years as a police officer and you're relatively you know active and and An operation then you do see an awful lot of sadness and human frailty and And and it can you know, it was almost reassuring to know that I was they could still get to me You're still human. Yeah, because you become colder the machine You would bottle all right shut up to then try move on to the next job and catch the next criminal That's why shows like this are so important because a lot of people from the streets have grown up to not like the police to Not cooperate to take it on no minutes if you're active and being bad It's understandable that the police are your enemy, but it's under is to show that police officers are human The shit that they need to say DnD out rapes murders suicides overdose a lot of bad bad stuff and Effects on mentally effect it scares them for life that people are out there trying to clean up the streets That don't matter in life. There's always good and bad always say this No matter if you're a copper or no matter if you're a nun or a priest. There's good and bad It's just life, but it's show people that We're all kind of human and it's kind of all under the same sky try to fight the same battle But it's to show people that what you actually have to go through to then try and survive because then you eventually have Family and kids and if you're seeing bad stuff every day, it must play a massive part in your mental well-being Yeah Yeah, absolutely. It does. It does. It's funny to have a kid. You know, you kind of You kind of try and shield them from it a bit and you know like my kids would be young when I was when I was investigating murders all the time and You know, what do you do at work today? That'd be well, you know, it's just Yeah, it's just um, you try and you try and sort of shield them from that and keep that separation I listen I I Think I think I've come out of it relatively unscathed, you know I'm in a sort of a happy place, but the fact is that there are many who don't and You know, thankfully that's that's that's being recognized within the service now and you've got I know just just There's lots of little initiatives and just a just a phrase. You know, it's okay. Not to be okay phrase, you know And you you kind of realize that actually quite often all it needs is something to talk to talk to about it, you know And just to say how you feel and but it's it's encouraging people who are in you know If I say I'm kind of a macho culture, that's not it's reducing it is excluding it to you know to to men but because it's that kind of Tough culture anyway, then within policing it makes it even more difficult for people to say Do you know what this is getting to me? Do you know what I can't cope with it? Yeah, and they must they must be allowed to and they must be able to and they must have help Do you become more protective towards your family and kids calling as time goes on especially in the mother investigation Seeing me you're seeing some horrific things that do you become so protective because you know how bad the world can be sometimes Yeah, I think I think it's right. I think it's wider than that really James I think you think actually police officers are far more fearful of crime than everybody else because of what they've seen and what they know Yeah, you know and and so you'll be with with with my wife or with with with my friends who haven't been police officers and when I sort of Say let's be a bit careful Yeah, what's up with you your paradigm? I'm not paranoid. I know what goes on. You don't you don't understand what goes on You know, so yeah, it does it does someone say just makes you awfully cynical about other human beings Perhaps it does but it kind of yeah, you you know things or Appreciate things that others don't and they're probably better off for not not appreciating You know how hard is it to see the beautiful things in life that there's so much goodness and so many beautiful things But how hard does it mean you're constantly seeing negatives like I had a man just on before you called Daniel cross who great man who? Just you watch the news you see horrific crimes and things happening You never think that will never happen to me But he was on the phone his house was getting burgled his wife phoned on says look I think there's something trying to get in the guy got in while he was still on the phone He was working away and he had his wife get murdered the guy try to kill the kids also, but the wife Protected the kids, but she ended up getting killed in the crossfire and then they try to take the kids away but thankfully the police were there in time and He's he's like fuck me like that can really knock somebody But that man never let that defeat him because I know people childhood trauma is a big thing the kid at six He's son seen that trauma and so he's still affected by it six years later and it's understandable but and Dan himself is now opened up a strong man mental health thing that he pushed through and Try to understand that you can kick on in life bad things do happen But it's just crazy that when you actually speak to people you realize fuck me that some people are so Blinded by actually some of the serious stuff that goes on which you would have probably seen that and then met in the vet Investigation how many murders did you get called out to? I'll call that I really don't know the number because we don't also this sort of on call stuff Yeah, once we were we'd kind of start it off and then hand it out somebody else, but You know I was responsible 39 as soon investigated over the years But you know sometimes I mean what you're saying about that man. I mean he sounds absolutely remarkable Okay, how can you know how can you even start to understand what he's been through? But but occasionally What does what does make you realize that there's still hope for humanity's yeah, he's that Out of something as tragic and as awful as acts and who can come and you know, he's he's used channeled the All the anger and then maybe bitterness and sorrow and grief that he had and obviously would have had about him and challenged that challenged that sorry and channeled that to to be a force for good one of my cases I did We did a program about in the sky crime and Documentaries I did in the year There's a lad 18 year old like Christopher Donovan who was Essentially kicked to death in one of the most stupid and senseless murders. I think I ever came across Where literally he's walking with his brother and friend and another group of young people come towards them They're all a bit drunk the other group Be taking a few drugs and it's just a silly argument the two groups of kids walking along in the street You know and turns into a fight and he ends up getting kicked to death. It's just completely completely avoidable and pointless and I saw his parents very invite one of them Very soon after when I got given the case to investigate and They're just the most remarkable people That you know, they were Committee Christians Very ordinary people but very sensible people and They grieved they had to sorrow. They had the business. They had the anger that everybody has in us You know, it's natural to have a natural circumstances and when that trial was over and They did the thing that so many members so many bereaved families will do and they'll come up as if you've been some kind of saving for them and I always find that's the worst time because It's the time I realize there's nothing else we can do for them. It's like we've investigated their loved ones death We've taken it to court. There's been a conviction. The perpetrator is going to prison Still doesn't bring him back does it still don't bring her back look, you know, the loved one and I can't do any more for you Now, you know, well, I suppose I could do I can do and did with them because I've stayed in touch until this day But what they did I think with the help of sort of counseling they've gotten through their church and so forth they formed a trust in his name To promote restorative justice and to try and Divert young people away from crime and they both got obese now For what they've done their services to justice and they go around to prisons. They go around to schools. I've got this charity and None of that good would have happened if Christopher hadn't been So, you know, so that's why I try and support them as much as I can they have so Carol services and things at Christmas with the met choir and I go into that and say try and support them with it So I think that's you know, that's really my answer. It's a long windy way of saying yes, sometimes in amongst all this mayhem and grief Something good can evolve and it's it's those things that make us think actually we're not all doomed Did you have to see all did they fit in any mother case? Did you see all dead bodies? Um, yeah pretty much so I think so certainly yeah, so You the senior investigating officer really should always go to the post-mortem examination They're they're obviously they're grizzly Things and yeah, but once you've once you've been to one or two kind of you become a bit sort of you're hardened to that as well They take an awfully long time now and when I started they would take two or three hours you can be in there now for eight nine hours because the Progress of science and the investigation of science has meant there were so many more things that can be done and so it takes longer to do and Yeah I once did he live on on the same day I was I was a di and case uh fire Undicent cinema in smithfield in london And the guy who was refused admission set like to the place 11 people died And it's back in I think it was 94 and uh Yeah, it all 11 post-mortems in one day that was a That was a bizarre day, you know, you just it was it was just such a A production line almost we had two pathologists two scenes of crime officers two photographers Two exhibits officers two slabs side by side and I'm sort of overseeing And yeah, did six we went and had lunch and came back and did the other fire Just as much who you can harden yourself. Yeah, well, that's the sort of day james when you get home. Yeah, what? What kind of a day at work was that? You know, you just absolutely Mind-blowing, but I mean, it's very unusual. Yeah, but You know, you know things things happen like that. We have sadly we have we have terrorist attacks. We have you know tragedies disasters and things where Somebody has to do that somebody has somebody's involved in sorting all that out at the end And you just go straight back into work the next day at any time no time off nothing It's mad if I see ants on the road, I'll step over them because I don't want to hurt them never mind getting to work and seeing a loving body burnt to the ground like It just shows you like I say for people watching to understand that what police officers have to go through to then And firemen firemen Doctors as well Yeah, but imagine it would make you so cold that It'd be difficult to adapt to normal life because that's not normal things. You see you see people in the army as well Seeing that yeah, terrible Shetland the majority of people are homeless are ex-military and Because the human beings we shouldn't be seeing Darkness like that but like you says there that it happens and somebody's got to be there at the forefront Yeah, so when you started moving through the ranks then calling because you became very at the top of your craft that How did you keep getting promoted just because of the work in No, I was on this sort of scheme. So so Essentially if you came How it worked back then was you could take the sergeant's exam For a motion if you had two-year service when you've done the probation And I took my I was encouraged by my my then chief superintendent to take it At the very first opportunity which was I had two years and three days service and I took it and if you passed in the top 100 I think in in the met at the time You were then given an interview to go on the six-year-old motor scheme. I came 27th, I think so it was quite high and Got on that went on the interview Got through that and then had to go to one of these three-day extended interviews Up in Lancashire actually where you had do all sorts of exercises and things over three days and write stuff and you've interviewed and and I got through it and I got selected for this course and it meant that in um January 1984 as I say the day after that fatal road accident I talked about I was off down to Bramsey Which was in the police college in Hampshire to do a year there on what they called the special course as a sergeant and There was sort of half and half Law and procedure and half and half sort of management and leadership training It was yeah, it's a big Jacobian mansion in 270 or acres of Hampshire countryside It was just a wonderful place to live for a year. I was the youngest in the course. I was I was only 23 going down there and Yeah, I made some friends for life there from people who were on other course from other forces and and from the met and They looked after me because I was the baby Um, particularly a couple of ex-military guys on there. We're both ex-marines who who I became friends with Took care of me. I had a wonderful time. I mean, I was It's like university. I have Wednesdays with sports day and I had a football team I had a cricket team so I played in both of those and and uh Had a great time and past pasticles at the end and that meant I came out as a sergeant And I had to do one year as a sergeant in uniform And because we'd taken inspectors exam while we were down there We were qualified for inspector if we did a satisfactory year as a sergeant We were inspector how many ranks as on the police force. Oh god. Don't ask me So the first one is a beat that's just yeah, yeah, comes to us off and you go to sergeant and then inspector um, so I was a uniform inspector in December 1985 having joined in January 1981. I had I'd like four years 11 month service. I was 25 years of age And I was in charge of a whole response team Layton in east London. What's the top one? Other commissioners the top one. So yeah, the met you see the reason I the met has Other levels as you get really high up that county forces don't have but You know, I mean, it's very It's very bottom-heavy the rank structure. They're only a very few at the very top and then it gets down So, you know, I I achieved a middle-ranking role of chief inspector detective chief inspector Yeah, only Smallish percentage of all police officers ever attained that rank or higher. So but it wasn't for me about necessarily having the you know, the best rank I could or the best to say I I always counted myself. I still count myself really lucky that I spent 30 years doing a job where I loved going to work every day And so few people can say that up in podcast hosts You know, it's it's right there, isn't it? You know, if you I don't know where you're from but, you know Where I came from that the the the factories nearby and you see when I was a kid You see all these men mostly men actually some women obviously as well But cycling to and from the factory said these big yellow plastic capes these over their bikes because And they're going To a factory every day other parts of the country got people going down coal mines Every day and I've been down a coal mine a proper coal mine I've been actually in the 90s and I have to tell you as far as I'm concerned those guys who did that Pay them whatever they were asking for, you know, because there is nowhere on earth. I could do that every day for a while Yeah, tough old job So, so, you know, there's so many people who who who have to work are Motivated to work. No, you know a decent enough people. I'm not going to rely on the state I'm not going to rely on handouts. I'm not going to turn a crime I'll do this job even though I hate it because I want to provide for myself and my family And they do that and there are lots of people do that And I was lucky enough to be doing something I could do that and I loved every minute of it. So, you know um, that was always my my kind of motivation really was was was to Enjoy what I was doing and when I started being a senior investigating obviously it was just the best job in the world I just loved loved doing it. She's probably why I did it for so long. Yeah, what about, um You had booked so many books. Have you got out Colin? I've got Excuse me I've got two out and one one both of them came out to coincide with the manhunt Martin Cleans TV dramas because they they were the books upon which they were based So one's been out since um, 2019. It's just called manhunt and uh That's um, not a title. I particularly wanted the itv forced you on this Made no sense to make the the book and the cv under a different title. Um, and that deals with the the Levi belford investigation So that was you know, Levi belford does this horrible serial murderer and paedophile who Is the only man ever to be given whole life sentences at two different trials in the country um, he killed Two young women in south london tried to kill another one that was my case and of course, he'd also killed milly dowler Which is uh, was the surrey case and he got mixed with that as well So that's the book about that one the first book and then the next book is it's about uh, the deregrain investigation that we mentioned at the start where was was something after after belfield and um Before I retired I was just asked to go and sort of do a review really for a couple of weeks and Probably made the mistake of coming up with an idea that somebody liked and got the gig as it were and uh, you know I'm glad I did because we succeeded and we took him off and stopped these old people from being Terrorizing their own home. So you it's difficult to to not think that You know, you've done some good by doing that. So they're the two books I've got another one that I'm contracted to write but I'm not quite sure when that's going to be finished Because the story hasn't really finished yet. Um, and that's about some Murders that happened in london during the 1970s that I did some review work on when I was in the police But kind of we all got on the back burner. Yeah, it's a fascinating story. So Yeah, um So, yeah, I'm pretty they're they're both out man-hunt man had the night story All on amazon normal places. We'll leave links in the description because yeah, why do you think that? True crime sales. Why is it such a turn on for people that you go into netflix you go into It's all murders. It's all serial killers. That why is it so much a Attraction for human beings. Well, I think it touches on what we talked about earlier on jokes I think it's it's kind of the fact that it's so removed and so different to other people's lives and by reading about it seeing about it on television hearing about it on podcasts they can kind of try to understand and try to imagine what it's like being involved in In in that and you know and how how it is for both the victims and I guess for the perpetrators and for the detectives as well It's but you're right. There's I mean, there's an apparently inexhaustible sort of demand for it at the moment both here and and abroad and Yeah, um It's interesting watching that. I mean the audience reaction to manhunt the night stalker of the last few days has been amazing I mean, I know I know twitters twitters not the world is it thankfully but But it's a window to the world or window to some of the world And and you know the reaction I'm told. I don't I don't crunch the numbers on things like this, but I'm told that um the Tweets about the third episode which was the night before last Third episode of manhunt two Exceeded the number of tweets for the not only the first two episodes But also the whole of the previous series all put together. Yeah And and and you know, I've been sitting there my wife. I've been sitting there sort of scanning it Going through it and trying to reply to people that ask reasonable sort of questions but what actually stands out is The number of negative things negative tweets out of the literally thousand thousand as we see, you know, it's three or four it's it's I'm blown away by the audience reaction to it because There were no car chases no fights no um no no gun gun shots and You know, I wasn't an alcoholic who was having affairs It was it was kind of it's none of the sort of tropes and normal sort of fictional detective stuff It was just about what it's like for these detectives who are You know the ordinary men and women who just do a particular job And it's what it's like to be in their shoes to go through to go through man That's what I've tried to do with the books is given for the point of view of this is I I wouldn't I don't want to write a book about Levi Belford or Delroy Grant I don't want to see them on television. I don't you know, they're they're they're worthless But the people who did the work to put them in prison to stop them They're worth a million of them. Yeah, that's who I want you to So the first book because you've worked in that's Neon of two of the biggest cases in the uk that are mega cases like to be involved in them But the first one the serial killing one at belford. Is it belford? Yeah, how do you deal with that? How what's the game plan when you see young girls getting Brutally murdered was it four? Yeah, and then how do you Well three three in an attempt Yeah, so how do you deal with that then at the start like when you get put forward to then try and catch one of the biggest serial Cells on the list at that time The first reaction is am I up to it? I'm not gonna lie. That was you know, that's how I felt and what way Well, I know this is going to be really high pressure You know when you watch, you know, when you read a book or you you watch a film or whatever There's always this pressure isn't on the on the detectives Can they catch him before he strikes again? You know that that's so common I was living that for real that was going to be my life You know I was actually literally on me was going to be that pressure if we don't catch him how many more is he going to kill Unless a big old responsibilities take on and and I think I think if anybody said They would never have the you know the slightest doubt they're up to it and I think they'd probably be Telling lies. I think everybody would ask themselves And you kind of think well, I'm trained for it. I've done the courses and there's funny thing about investigating serial crimes like this There are only a few detectives get trained as senior investigating officers full stop Only a few of those get trained to do these serial cases And only a very few of those actually get to do one life just thankfully there aren't that many of them So when it comes it lands in your lap you You sort of think well, would there be anybody else who's better, you know, I really did but I can't think people someone someone's got to step up Someone's got to do it. Someone's got to take that Take that risk of feeling That you'd failed on something really important, you know, that's that's that's the the risk, isn't it? He said, you know, if I don't do a good job if somehow we don't somehow we mess it up Other people might well be dying And that's that's a huge thing to bear. So it's another another bit of pressure. So if you know in a case like that and then it strikes again and somebody gets murdered How do you Feel with that? Does that totally deflate you and thinking more pressure that Well, you feel like I feel you're that thing. It didn't it didn't happen But with with belfry because before he struck and we did arrest him But although took a long time to to get the evidence into convicting he was at least arrested and On remarked so he couldn't do any harm um Oh god, I I think it would be devastating to me personally I I really I really don't know how How you how I would go on and cope living with that every day that I'd mess something up and somebody had died of a result you know, it's I say just fortunate it didn't happen, but Until he was locked away. That was That was a reality. You know, that was the reality that you were facing that and and they wasn't just me You know, there's there's there's a team we see all right I often say this most of the team most of these detectives run these murder squads are very experienced very talented highly trained officers And actually the difference between them and me is I get paid just a little bit more for signing the pieces of paper at the end of the day and making decisions, you know, um so They you know, they would have they would have felt the same. I'm sure and in case where it's happened I I don't know. I don't know how those officers must feel, but it Yeah, it would it'd be a weighty thing to have on your mind What's the what was his motive for these killings? Well, we don't really know. Um, he he's such a narcissistic self-centered person. He kind of just did whatever he pleased all the time and They didn't matter what they had another person didn't matter what effect that had on The legality of what he was doing. He was just a you know, just did what he wanted and all that mattered to him was him um What we were able to work out from the amelie de la gange murder was that She was walking along the road and because we had so many cctv sightings of belfry and his bag We worked out at one point. He must have driven past her and because It then took her longer to get from the point we last saw her before he went past her to the point where We last saw her Don't explain this to her but basically she died a slow down or she'd stopped for time And that was the time when the band was near so we think Knowing what he's like what people told us about him. We think he was cruising around looking for A woman a young woman not necessarily to murder but to chat up and take her in his car Maybe drug and rape because he did do that as well. Um, and when she said no In that exchange at the side of the road he let her go and then followed her the car and asked her on the head What sort of stuff was he doing to the woman? That was it. That was all he did. That's all he would do it with these blitz attacks and he carried out a number of um Because apart from the two that died and the one that nearly died to at least another Two that we know of that survived um He he would just we think the best guess we can say until he Comes clean shows him remorse and admits it one day will never know what's facing but what we think Is that he would drive around looking for a young woman to pick up And when they gave him a brush off He would get out the car and hit them on the head and it's kind of as simple and as stark as that See when they get I found guilty there's the officer stole try and go back and speak to them to try and get them What's to see if there's any yeah, any word the else he's done or any body's had him It was tribe with both belfield and we go wrong But because they both said no we didn't We we didn't do it. So how can we help when we haven't done it? We're not guilty. We've been only convicted So you get nothing on Nathan eason who was the di Fabulous bloke who was on the di di on on the poshum instant. They were gone on the deraugh grant case he um Shortly before he retired which was sometime after me He went to see deraugh grant in prison in the hope that he could get him to finally explain and to talk to him I just simply said fuck off. So I said, okay, and had to leave it at that Can't make these people talk. Do you ever get any serial killers? There's people who's come forward and they've been laid for doff and they've says like, okay There's a body there and the body there. Yeah, if you ever came across that yourself not personally. No, I mean, I know it has happened You know, it's There's a There's a sort of a campaign isn't it to have a law to say that murderers can't be um Peroled Unless and until they give up where the book where the body's buried And I can't think that means it's kind of adding insult to injuries and it's bad enough having your loved one murdered But then not being able to have a proper funeral not having that Closure that proper closure. Yeah, you know, I mean closure is a funny word. I don't often use it really because as far as I've seen, you know, I I've spoken to more recently briefed people that's probably good for one individual But but I have and they all react in different ways and I always tell them there's no right or wrong way Just god forbid you or I wouldn't know how it reacts until it happens. Let's hope it never does But I think what the bereaved victims do Is learn to live with it As opposed to getting closure I think every day they miss their loved one every day. They probably think about But what they do is they learn to have some sort of life and carry life with that knowledge Yeah, um, you never you can never, you know, they'll never they'll never get over it completely because you can't I says that in my last interview there that Time's not a healer that You adapt to the pain you learn to live with it You learn to deal with it and move on with it But we'll face pain and trauma like because Peter Tobin in Glasgow. Do you ever remember that case? I know I know He's a sick fuck. He had the he's working with the priest, but I think he was Shagging hookers himself. I think it was all fucked up like he had the young Polish girl and he buried In the church in the church. Yeah, that's right in Glasgow, but I think he's done a few yeah And I think they're digging up gardens and stuff Yeah, but it's scary the amount of people that has went missing and it could be all connected. Is that Constantly playing your mind. Do you try and connect dots even when you're off work when you see things on the news and the newspapers? That could be connected to something from 20 30 years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, you know, it's um It's funny how these things can sometimes come to the surface years and years later as well, you know, and Yeah, I mean, there are still real genuine mysteries out there. You know, there's still you know, many of them and uh, I guess I don't know. Yeah, it's with with the fascination with it, you know with With kind of this this demand for true calm stories. Um, it won't go away No, what about all the mothers you've investigated and speaking to the mothers? Did anybody ever just come clean straight away and put their hands out or did they all Plead their innocence. Yeah, no one or two did one or two did put their hands up straight away. I mean If you get I don't know what the figures are now for say for London 120 130 maybe 150. I don't know Um, most of those Almost all of those will be unplanned. Yeah, will be spontaneous and Is that correct? I thought it maybe be gang related. No, well, yeah, but even though it's not quite often the gangs don't go out They're not cold-blooded. They're planning it. Yeah. Yeah, they're not like they'll feel who thought I'm gonna go out tonight and get myself a girl and if I if she says no, I'm gonna kill her So I'm gonna switch my phone off. I'm gonna drive around these streets where I know there's no cctv You know and things like that this sort of planning. I'm gonna make sure that I've got gloves and I don't leave dna So many murders are that spontaneous that the people doing it don't think about cctv about their phone signal communications data about dna about fingerprints And they do it and because We as a society and the police still treat Murder rightly as something big and the ultimate crime. They put lots of resources into it So you get a whole team of skilled detectives with pretty much Unlimited budgets for scientific work and forensic work. It is limited Generally, if you if you want something done, you can get it done And if you throw that these spontaneous crimes It's pretty easy to find out who did it and actually you can end up wrestling somebody And present there is so much evidence. They've got no choice. So yeah, okay, it was me But it's those little ones at the end and that tends to be your serial murderers or people like belfield And and people like wrong. It wasn't a murderer They plan what they're doing. They know how the they might get and they take steps to avoid it And when you've got that going on, they're the really tough cases. They're difficult cases, you know Do you know You can kind of tell something's not right with people sometimes but Sometimes these guys you see a lot of the american ones as well a lot of films they come across very well dressed Very polite very smart very manipulative with narcissistic traits kick in that if you ever sat across with someone and you think How can you do how could you do that? Was there always tell tale signs that there's something not right upstairs? um, I think yeah I mean do a cons good example of that in some ways because he was he had A real double life. You see when we Charge belfield with the murders and we spoke to people who knew him. They sort of said, yeah It was only a matter of time. We always knew he was around and we always knew he was weird. We always knew he was fine psychopathic whatever When we spoke to the people in New Delhi ground, they told us we must have the wrong man They said He's the main say the cricket team. He's the bloke who we have a laugh and a joke playing Domino's with the pub he's a carer devoted carer for his disabled wife Before she was so disabled. He used to go out into knocking on doors to with Jehovah's Witnesses We have a street party in the Colisec here and he always does the barbecue and put some music Yeah, he's just regular sort of nice guy bloke. You must have the wrong man And So and and and when you know if you watch on the reading the book or watch on the drama last night It's absolutely true. I had this conversation with him about cricket The first time I met him. He'd just been arrested. He'd just been arrested. He'd just given a DNA sample uh That he knew was to put him in prison for probably the rest of his life. Certainly the rest of the good years inside And because he was dressed all in white because we you know, we stare at type of bill It was it was a joke really it was like a joke sort of an icebreaker really when they got introduced to me he was very polite very respectful bowed his head hands with me and and but he's dressed all in white because he's been given the themselves and and and Jogging bottoms and sweatshirt because they're taking his clothes one. They're all white and I thought West India man his age She's probably into cricket and he'd love to say the jokes I saw He batting all bowling and just said it like that and he seized on it. So I said, how are you into cricket? I said, yeah, man. He says he don't still play. I said, I do occasionally. Yeah, what I am bowl Oh, no, no, my knees won't let me bowl never. I mean, I still about it. Not very well He says I still What do you think about the England squad going to South Africa for the tour this year? You know, I said, what if you do another fastball? Yeah, I've been saying that to the boys at the pub, you know I would literally had a conversation. It's gone on that long and I said somebody after It was a joke and I spoke I didn't expect it to be like one of the the rain insolutes in test match special special, you know, we just had this sort of conversation about cricket and like you might do about football or anything I'll sit in the pub with the bloke, you know that you know and That was I now realized that was that was part of him, wasn't it? That was him I was seeing the Delroy there that everybody else saw That told us we had the wrong man that told us he was the nicest bloke in the world The life and soul of the party he couldn't do enough for you. He was being that man there to me Is that a spot person earlier? Oh, I don't know. I'm of my pay grade James. I don't know. I'm no psychologist, but but He definitely had two personality here and the one that everybody knew And then the one that these Old people lying in their beds, but you know before the before the you called into this court case like That's to catch him. Like were you were you just about to retire? um, no, I had about a year to go So I was um and and I'd I didn't have to retire They weren't really Forcing you wouldn't have forced me out. I suppose. Um but I kind of wasn't sure what I was going to do whether I was going to retire or not and I was still with my own murder team that had done belfield working at putney Um, and you know, I enjoyed working with them. They were they were so bloody good They were they were delighted to manage and to leave. Um, so I'd have carried on maybe for a bit beyond my 30 years It um, but what happened was that the year before I got I was asked to go over and look at minstead. I ended up there and I was there until my retirement date came up and and It was I was kind of underused really to a degree because we would we arrested him and charged him We were doing the papers for court. We didn't weren't even finding any more evidence like with belfield We carried on investigating all the time to all circumstantial evidence We'd grown we had his dna. It was it was you know, there was no conscience really Um, so all I was doing was supervising the putting together of the case papers for the crown prosecution service and and It got to the day when I could go and I thought well I've had a good run. I've had 30 years. I've got to go some time To be honest if I carry on coming to work next week and coming to work for a Half pay because I can get half and not turn up, you know the pension So you kind of way things out and I I'm sort of 50 years old about 51. I'm thinking well Actually, I've got A few good years left or who knows I might get to do something else and I didn't know what that might be I certainly didn't think it would be all this sort of stuff I did that stuff I got a job delivering flowers You know when I first left the police the first job I did was delivering flowers for like minimum wage for three Flourish shops and sorry, but I loved it. That's why I would just drive me out of this van Everybody was pleased to see me because I was giving them flowers Completely stress-free, you know, yeah sometimes that's all you wanted. Yeah So when you get called up for the one of the biggest sex cases on the run and the uk that How long did it take for you to catch them? Well, I went over to look at it to do my review. I think it was the end of may in 2009 And I made some suggestions about how they should work and change it around and they asked me to stay on and I wasn't given the sort of The reins to it The original SO was still there, but he I mean terribly sad He'd had a really bad injury to his back some years before in the fight with the prisoner and he was in a lot of pain and he Devosed himself so much really to to trying to solve operation Minstead that he At the night stalker we're going to call him. Um, he he carried on and carried on and carried on when perhaps he really Yeah, could and should have been um Given an ill health bench and and not made to him. He was in a lot of pain sometimes, Simon Um, and it's through his credit that he wouldn't do that. You know, he was so determined to try and get through this So he was still the senior investigating officer and some of the things I'd suggested he Complete went along with and took on board and We changed the way it worked a bit and then he had to go into hospital for a period for another operation in his back and so I was given the the kind of siro role and it was about the time then that I was able to get this event operation going and and um You know, I had an amazing amount of help other people in the net who were real experts in their field, you know and and and They advised me and helped me Uh, immeasurably, um And and yeah, we put this thing together and we did it for 17 days and it was he not For him and I remember the 13th 14th. I think that he was arrested So it's about six months altogether a bit less than six months six months Yeah, so how do you see when you came in calling? Yeah, and this man's been at large for over 15 years Do you need to look at all the files over that period? How does it work? Yeah, not myself in an office. We load it dusty files and there are a few videos I watched Again, you're seeing the drawing because see some of the interviews the victims have been recorded on video Yeah, um It's the only way to do it because if you don't know something Yeah, the last thing I want to do is to come up with a brilliant idea I spend a couple of days writing report on it presenting it And people who know the case better may say, well, no, that's not true because you know, I had to know all those because so Yeah, I didn't have any choice but to get myself up to speed with it and and it took a while and it was harrowing Yeah, so when Delroy Dunney's first Breaking and sexual assault and stuff you never done it for a longer period after that as well Was that correct because they thought maybe it was in prison or yeah There was a kind of break or as a potential that you could have been getting breaking into houses rape them but people weren't Too scared to maybe come forward as well. I think either or both. Yeah. Yeah the first offence that he left DNA rape was in 1992 They didn't get DNA from it straight away because DNA wasn't really a thing there, but in 1998 There was another one And they did then get DNA for it and by that time they've been kind of going back over the old exhibits and swabs and things from the old cases And that's when the match came. Oh, this is the same as one same man as well in 92. So that was what Became the series and became operation incident was given to us especially his team to to investigate So there was nothing Apparently between 1992 and 98 and then even during the times that He was active. There were lulls But the trouble was that because he didn't rape somebody every time because he didn't In decently assault somebody every time Because he never left his fingerprints anywhere because he knew that his fingerprints were on file one fingerprint. He'd have been he'd have been potting um I don't think we can be absolutely sure that there weren't other burglaries because there have been all sorts of burglaries reported in london during those periods And in southeast london where we know he he he only worked um I don't know how many of those sitting there in a dusty box somewhere might be might be derelict grant crimes, you know, I'm I'm certainly the psychologist and forensic sort of Profilers and things that that I speak to Are all very skeptical that he would go quiet for long periods Unless there was a reason so he was living abroad or he was in prison or he was in hospital or something like that You know say people like him Don't just stop for a while and then wake up one day. I think you know, I'm gonna start again You know, it's that's not it's not how they mind. Do you ever have a girlfriend wife? Did he yeah? Yeah, he had two wives They had didn't know about each other Sorry, yeah, no, he was married married divorced and married again. The first wife told us all about you know, she had a really terrible time with him in terms of domestic violence and abuse and things like that The second wife She contracted multiple cirrhosis and it was the sort of degenerative progressive version of it And she gradually became more and more paralyzed and infirm and disabled And he was looking after her he was her carer. He was paid by the local council to be her carer And apparently did a good job of it during the daytime and at night time He's over it. I'm not working old ladies. Yeah, it's fucked up It's bizarre and he had a girlfriend. We came across um And we we we found out as we after he'd been charged that he'd been working as a mini cab driver in south london in the um in the early 2000s and uh As a result of that we found out that one of his passengers Had Sort of started a relationship with him Do you think that's what he was finding a lot of his victims or a nick had maybe dropped them off at home? I think it's entirely possible. Yeah, but I mean what it was he was a creature of habit. He had a he had a particular way that he liked, you know The vast majority of his offenses. He actually removed the whole pane of glass He went to houses where they were like 1930s houses like the one I grew up in Um, I'm probably a bit like I think, you know, my dad retired in I don't know 84 something like 85 And he used his retirement money to get the windows Replaced and the windows you get replaced at those times had beading on the outside if you peeled it off You could just take the pane of glass out whole and he knew that that's how he got into houses Most of them was by removing a whole pane of glass Um, so he had that and he had he didn't do social housing. He didn't do flats. He only ever did houses and bungalows They're mostly of that sort of vintage 1930s places And you know, if you go down to the suburbs of southeast London or suburbs anywhere And look at the states of these 1930s houses You can see the ones where all people you still can Yeah, it's not just the grip the grip rail on the side of the door, but you know, they won't have had won if had their garden Concreached over to park four cars on because their children have got cars or something like that Um, the garage might still have the old double doors on Um, he just you know, you can walk down any suburban street like that and Old person lives have a shadow and he knew that he was switched on to that And he was at large for 17 years. How do you deal with that calling like Going over old footage or interview in someone in the 80s who's been raped But how do they how does how do they even deal with that with the victims? That a lot of victims imagine you would be dead now, but the vast majority unfortunately are yeah How heartbreaking is that for an officer to begin in? Yeah, absolutely listening to that. Absolutely, you know, it's just I mean Yeah, reading I got it all sort of secondhand reading. I had a reading their statements in most cases or looking at the videos um real live officers have sat down across the table like you and I and spoke with somebody about that and What what what comes over to me is this you know this the generation that we're talking about here are the generation that grew up either with children during the Second World War and they grew up with rationing and things in the 50s and and They're just a lot more sort of historical. They're just a lot more reserved and and Quiet and suffering about their about their problems. I think and and that's why I'm sure that There are indecent assault and probably rape victims of his that we don't know about because they just didn't they report to a burglary but didn't say what happened because sometimes it was A considerable time off for the event that they'd come forward to us. They were actually do you know what this is what you did this way did to me because People that generation didn't like talking about intimate stuff like that They felt shame some of them absolutely no reason for them to but you can understand, you know that they did um and that was really part of the motivation of writing the book and and and making it into into the drama was that What I realized was that these old people never had a voice There was no twitter There was no petitions. There was no kind of facebook groups instagram, you know, they didn't have access to report what happened to them And we know from talking to journalists at the time the newspapers were trying to get the youth market You know and that an editor apparently actually said to one journalist People don't want to read about old ladies being raped over their conflicts So there was just no pressure put on And and you know, we say it's true Nathan said it to me if the victims have been aged 18 to 35 It would have been dealt with by the media and by the police in a very different way but they were aged 68 to 95 Imagine that loving your whole life and your 80s a man and and then your house was broke down and the fucking guys coming in Yeah, how many charges was it charged with? He was 29 eventually And they're not guilty everyone Fucking sicko. Oh, it's even better than that. His defense was like the comedy defense to be all comedy defenses his defense was that In 1979 when he left his first wife as he was leaving her because they were having problems When they had sex she saved semen and saliva She got a doctor friend to keep it in a freezer at guys hospital and then In the 90s and 2000s somebody went out With these samples squirting him into old ladies clothing Yeah, DNA is an identification thing. You know, it wasn't a thing until the mid 90s, you know And it just it's just absolutely implausible defense. So he was just it was comical if he was serious, you know Yeah, but but he I think the I wanted to ask some questions about how we how society how we deal with old people and there was a there was a wonderful scene in the drama last night with with Colleen Martin Bloons as me talking to the family ace officer and they see some old ladies selling to industry And they're just talking about how they're invisible and how We don't think we're gonna get there. We don't think we'll be that we won't have to zimmer frame bedpan and the forgetfulness And because of that it's it's kind of pushed to one side and none of us That's I think because I'm getting so close to it myself. You've got a few years to go But you know, it's a really serious point that these old Ladies mostly these victims of terror aren't Largely visible and nobody could speak for how many victims we know Officially, I think there's 204 offenses I suspect There are hundreds more Sad on it Do you think you would have retired if you never caught him? Do you think you've kept going an extra year or two years to eventually catch them? Knowing me myself as I do 100% yeah Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't give them that pathway through this No You started putting was it little spy cams everywhere and how would you eventually catch them gone? it's just really You know It was by very first meeting I ever went to everything they were talking about was a dna And I wrote in the margin in my book what if I didn't have dna and that was just a note to myself think, okay If I'm trying to think of other ways of doing this everything they're talking about it's got dna Let's take that away. Can we haven't got it? What do we do them? It was kind of an extension of that and I said, well He's actually a burglar We're we're we're saying he's a sexual predator. Yeah, he is but every single fence Yeah, he's really a sexual predator. We know we know he's no that's wrong. I've got this all confused. Sorry. I can't back again um Everyone was treating him because he was a sexual predator and he was a sexual predator, but he was also a burglar And that's the important thing for me is is that every single offensive committee started with a burglary Some of them a lot of them went on to be assaults or rapes if there was a burglary there every time so how do we catch burglars and I sort of thought back to my time working on divisions and that and all the way back to time and when I was when I was a We lad and You know, we had this this guy that was Plaguing a tiny part of the division because all the houses they had louver windows And you could price them out from the outside and climbing through the window and burglars But he was so parochial He was so restricted to one area that it took about 20 officers that we could get together Is it sitting cars or borrow people's bedroom windows and eventually he came along He'd run this rest in the house and he's sorted so What was to do was to scale that up and do it A quarter of london It takes a lot more 20 officers to To do that in a quarter of london that was But so what we had to do was we had to get intelligent. I was talking to the crime analyst and saying okay, let's Try and narrow this down to a manageable area Where we know he likes to offend because the housing stock and because the demographics are right and the analyst did that for us and Yeah, we had about 70 or 80 people instead That's still quite a big area to cover and we just sat there Hoping and waiting that he would come and Do one in front of her eyes and he kind of did Failing in his trap. Did he stay near that area Colin? Yeah, I'm A few miles away, you know three or four miles away. Yeah, I mean Everywhere that he offended was actually reasonably close to work to where he's been lived. Yeah It's mad. I like people how people can go through that like seem you can't somebody like that like I'm not comparing about like if I'd imagine for a football player scores a hard trick or something and is Feel good. Like you do that. How good do you feel that you've brought some fucking sickle like that to justice? Yeah, oh, yeah, I'm sure he's just like that. It's just you know, it's it's um The two of the really sort of stand out moments of my life when I yeah, when that jury foreman said guilty for Bellefield And when Nathan phoned me up and said, I think we've got him Colin Because we knew once we got him Grant The trial wasn't an issue because we had DNA and it was going to prove it A bit different trial was by no means to prove inclusion with Bellefield, but um Yeah, it was just you know emotional If you're pride You you know, I felt I felt so pleased for Members of my team particularly the Bellefield one because we had people who were so determined. They said no, it's right I'm not going and you know, they've been qualified for promotion And they get offered a post and I said no, so I'll wait for a little while. I don't want to be promoted yet That's somebody bought off their wedding you know Because they didn't want to miss being part of it and so people have made sacrifice I mean, it's a wonderful story about Bellefield investigation when we before we'd identified him when we'd identified his van We didn't have registration number. You the type of van current thought we had to find it around Twickenham and I'd go Leave home or leave work rather say, I don't know seven o'clock or something. Let's go home I'll just give it an hour around Twickenham and here by just see if I can see this van So I pull up there and I Radio on just to provide live and football or something like that, you know And uh, just sit there and watch for this by van coming past But the number of times I saw other people of my team in their own cars doing exactly the same thing And we never waived to each other We never even discussed it work because we've all been a bit embarrassed for everyone else to know that we were spending their own time trying to find this boat But I wasn't the only one that was at it, you know that it's kind of dedication out there that gets to people and and Yeah, there's special people sometimes these cops So see when you caught Leroy Was Delroy Delroy So see when you caught Delroy When he was dry was it it was that Like a surveillance on him or is it just you got the That you knew that it could have been him was it just pounds on him straight away No, it was he was he we knew what sort of car he drove from the first night of surveillance because he'd done some offences Close by but not in our area But we knew he must have driven through our area So he went to the cctp local school as to identify what must have been his car So we knew what color it was one sort of car And that was the road I've been down with Belford and I didn't want to go down again because finding a car in those circumstances is really tough um, so he kept the surveillance going and then One of the officers he'd been into the same Um observation post in this building Uh every night for 17 nights and as they walked in he saw this Raised the fear of the type that we knew he drove parked up. So he told everybody else that there's this sort of Car that's not been there before and to be aware And then sometime afterwards said Delroy as we now know came jogging down the street going the car and drove off So what we then did was we had a mobile surveillance team nearby on standby They were deployed behind the car But what we needed to do was to try and get him as far away as possible from our area before he was stopped because otherwise he might think If it's the wrong person he's not arrested It might otherwise show where we're doing observations. So we can't stop people there. We have to let them go away So that's what they did. They followed him for a couple of miles And he was actually turned off the main road and into another residential area of sort of old residential houses um So part of the thinking at the time was is he actually looking for somewhere else to break into But in the meantime, we've gone back around the way his car was parked and actually found a bungalow that he'd broken into there So it's by the time he got stopped it was pretty much It was a pretty good bet that we had the right man there But of course the dna confirmed it do you think because he has character being the nice guy in the pubs and playing for the cricket team that it then it's more hard that he can't people are at because of It's it's not just a case of luck because even he's crimes. He's leaving fingerprints. He's leaving semen He's leaving all the stuff that you need for a conviction, but yet it took 17 years to catch him I mean, he wasn't leaving fingerprints because that would have that would have got him because he had convictions going years back And he's been so far. He was very careful not to do that But dna he didn't care about because he knew he had nothing to match it to um But I think it his character and his split personality. Yeah, that made it more difficult to catch him Because there was quite a bit of publicity. You know as much as I think there should have been There's quite a bit of local paper and local radio publicity around this case But because people all knew him as Delroy life and soul of the party nobody would come forward said, you know, I think it could be him because he'd done nothing to make people think that it could be him Contrast that with belford where we have people coming forward to us including one of his ex-partner saying I think your murder could be this man because you know Nobody was ever going to say that about Delroy because nobody knew massive respect for catching those people that was that's what people Don't see like can you imagine one of these creeps like Attacking your sister or climbing into your grand or grandest house. Yeah, it's it's mad to think that yeah that happens like That sick shit that you don't really hear about unless you watch those dramas or read your book like How do you feel now that your book's been turned into a successful tv drama? And martin clunes is playing that part. Yeah, I mean I just roll with it James, you know, it's it's all unexpected You know, I'll tell I'll tell the story of how it came about because he's when I when I finish working I started writing I always liked writing Sorry writing this book and I did about 20,000 words on the belford book So this is nonsense. Nobody's ever gonna want to read this let alone publish it, you know so I stopped and and a friend of a friend of a friend like they do got ed wittmore who's the script writer who writes manhunt Got him to Talk to me because he was doing something for bbc never got made He wanted some advice on authenticity for So he came and saw me in my house and we just got on, you know And we we we got on really really well and and Ed is like a complete Walking in psychopedia of murder. I mean, yeah, and I've done some other word in fictional stuff as well He'll sort of be discussing something say, oh, yeah, what about in that case in tuscany 1997 What why do you expect me to know about that edge, you know, because he that's what he does because it's his job So he heard I started writing his book. We were just talking like I guess I want to see I want to see I gave him And he read it and he said I've got to carry on. It's really good. You've got to carry on the experience Oh, yeah, okay But took it with the pinch of salt and Unbeknownst to me he was working for Buffalo production company or something else and he said I it's a really good story I think you'd be interested in making into a grand drama, but you know, we've got a persuade Colleague to write it and so I had lunch with him and We talked about it and they said, yeah, we want we want we want to option your book Do you haven't written yet? So it's okay Um, and then it was Ed came and stayed with me for a week and we we did the first episode of the first man I tv commissioned the whole thing on that and suddenly I had a book to write and a script to help write All over summer 2017 a bit busy and we got it done That's it. That's where I'm where I am sort of thing and then we knew there was you know, I'd always thought I always saw The night stalker story probably Was a better story for dramatization in some ways But because it was so unknown there's no way we could have done that first We had to do the belfield one first because everyone knew about Millie Dallow one year about Levi belfield um, and that gave us a sort of the weight of the the sort of reputation that one so we could do the second one and Martin clues was I mean, it's his wife that runs the production company And at the beginning she said I don't know who we get to play you but you know, it's not it's not I'm not doing this for marty It was only when Ed had finished the script and we submitted the scripts and she showed them to Martin he said, yeah, I want to do that. I'm gonna play that So that's how he came back great guy. Really good guy great company. We've had to be with Yeah, it's a fascinating lease. You've led calling that some madness some mystery some darkness And now you're living the celebrity life style people playing your parts and why list it best jays But yeah, it's just as I say just just roll with it, you know life life throw things at you Take them in your stride Is there any cases you've you that there's the people are stalling there on you would have liked to have worked on? I don't think so really. I don't think so. I've I've got a fascination with the looking case, but that's that's been done until he Very recently as well. Yeah, but no, no, you know, I just don't say just take life take things as it comes and Well with it. Yeah, do you look at cases though calling and think that you look at like, do you know the bible john case That was in the barra lands The guy was just taking a girl's and killing them. Yeah, do you look at those all cases and see because there was no DNA there's no forensic So it's obviously harder then Do you look at them going and and in your mind you start Putting the clothes together. There's a lot of these people kind of have the same mind Were they kind of think the same as well a lot of these cases that you do? Is that correct? Is everyone totally different? No, I think I think there is a lot There's I don't think they're all totally different. I think there are the things that they're connecting and certainly Yeah, but no, I just you know, it's um I I kind of I sometimes look sort of jealously at Yeah, I think I could You know, it was the buzz of being in and amongst an investigation fast time Was was was quite huge really sometimes and I sometimes miss that and I remember The grief that he also brings, you know, and the pressure that it brings and So I think you actually I don't miss it that much. It's easy. It's easier telling stories than he was actually doing Yeah, I imagine like being in that life as being in a life a chaos can be Quite exciting as well because it's like you're in your own tv series. It's like you're in your own life That's that's that's remarkable thing for me. That's that's the that's the sort of the head exploding point for me is that Millions and millions of people are watching these things and tweeting and saying how much they enjoyed it and how wonderful it was That was my life. I lived that for real. That was my that was my day at work You know, that was my day for the years and it kind of gives you a Yeah, say it's a sort of a head explodes moment. I nearly said head fuck But you know what I mean is you sort of think Hang on a minute. This was just that's just life. That's just what I did You know and so it's for over 30 years being a detective and not many people patting you on the shoulder just your officers Not really knowing who you are what you've done But then when your story comes to the forefront you see that you are a soldier that Some of these things that no human should see no human should be witnessing and you're there Doing what you do try to catch real sick people that that's I take my heart off to you for that calling back Last question brother going forward for the future man. What's the plan? We're getting films out more books There's definitely one on the book. There's definitely some more documentaries. I start filming back in London filming in October for the real manhunter season two, which is probably going to be the the the the remaining documentary No, sorry It's probably going to be the remaining sort of cases that I did that are suitable to be to be sort of made into a documentary and talking about um And plans for another documentary for the year after about something a bit different I'll I'll keep them on ten talks about because it's not signed up yet. Um, and as in terms of the drama We would Edward Moore and I would love to do another series of manhunt It is possible that we might but There's a lot of a lot of talking negotiations to be done You know, it takes a long time to do this, but if we can we will because Yeah, I've just been bowled over by by people's reaction to it and how much you like it and and Yeah, so we've seen and But if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Yeah, no doubt. Well, I think you've got that kind of I'm usually disappointed Yeah, I could see clearly For anybody that's watching this maybe want to join the police force like what advice would you give for them? Don't do that. No, no, it's all Hey, listen, you know, I would I would say if you think that you want to Serve your community in a way That is exciting and interesting dispiriting boring Everything you can think of um It's a good job, you know, um and We need people to come forward and be it because quite frankly, we'd be we stuff without them, wouldn't we? Yeah, numbers are going down as well, but I think there's a lot of trying to get them up Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's sad because crime seems to be rising as well Not so much as through lockdown, but again now things seem I think I think the the big the big thing that I have real issue with about it about recruiting is this this nonsense to say we We've got our people with degrees everyone's got to have a degree before they can be a police officer Some of the very best police officers Worked with the pleasure to work with or under were Didn't have degrees Many of them had a background in the armed forces And they did for dinner They make good covers last question Colin. What makes a good police officer? Common sense Now you're right from wrong Sense of humor Not many I've come across if I don't sense how humorous if I'm honest Colin But listen, I've thoroughly enjoyed your story Great character, great individual and well done for all the work that you've done over the years That's unbelievable and I look forward to seeing more series and more jokes out that You've become a You wouldn't say an overnight success because everything that you've done that nobody ever seen that But for what you've done and putting yourself at the forefront to see those horrific things to then Let other people sleep better at night. I take my heart off to you and fair play to you But god bless you Colin and thank you very much Likewise