 So, we're looking at emotionally based school avoidance and the questions that have come up are so first of all How do we support anxious parents who are transmitting their worries to the child and this is a really a Very commonly asked question actually so we've got anxious parents as well as anxious children And we're not quite sure necessarily where the heart of the issue lies here I think the most important thing here is one of communication So when you are the parent or carer of a child who is struggling to attend school Then you can often begin to feel like it's your fault and there can be a lot of shame and worry and distress It's associated with that and it's also very emotionally draining. I say this as the parent of a child who's been through this cycle It's very very difficult and you can become you know quite worn down with it and very worried and very anxious The most helpful thing That the that the school can do and the other adults involved here is to be kind actually stop Care for them just be kind a cup of tea and a listening ear I know it sounds really really basic But the number of times when I turned up to school in the morning Having spent three hours trying to get my daughter across the threshold there And I was met with people expecting me to solve this problem because I'm the expert actually in that moment I wasn't I was an expert in my child. Maybe it didn't feel like it, but really I was just a mess I just needed someone to give me a cup of tea a hug and be kind to me and reassure me that It's gonna be okay that we were gonna work on this together. We were gonna do our very best So just be as reassuring as you can be as kind as you can of course You can be thinking about whether you can be proactively supporting them to seek things like a referral via the GP or to access Kind of self-help and support for themselves Your kindness and your care will go a really long way The other thing that parents and carers need to be reminded of is the importance of looking after themselves They need to be given permission to sometimes walk away from this problem and to exercise good self-care and To take time out from this worry and just to do something for themselves to take a break from it When they take a break and they look after themselves and they get a little bit of rest and relaxation in whatever form works for them They're much more able to begin to engage meaningfully with this problem so in just the same way that we wouldn't expect to explain in depth and means of sort of Relaxing to a child a time when they were highly distressed because they can't really process and that that thought It's the same with parent We need to try and create a sense of calm and safety for them to so that we can then begin to explore What we do next Next anything that we can give or signpost parents to during holidays and in preparation for the return to school in September Yes, so It'd be good to know a little bit more about what you're looking for there But actually one of the things I would say is that the work that I'm doing here And I'm going to be doing more work specifically on this topic I am going to be looking to engage with school as well as home and the wider community I'm going to be doing lots of work with school nurses as well And we're trying to create resources actually that are kind of universally applicable So actually these things work best when we're all coming from the same him sheet coming singing from the same him sheet So having a shared understanding of what we're doing So actually what we need to be thinking is what support and training Do we need collectively here and then making that available also to our parents and our carers? And I know there are some parents and carers in the room here Who are able to support? I'm not sure if any of our colleagues from the particular support groups are here But I will look them up afterwards if you are here unmute and share is anyone here from not finding school for example Okay, maybe not but not fine in school and then the other one whose name has completely escaped me But there are a couple of organizations who do specifically proactively and support that can be really helpful But the other thing you can do is if you've got Multiple parents or maybe you've got some current parents and some historic parents for whom this is a problem is actually put them in touch with each other So this is a really lonely problem And yeah, there's some great support out there but being put directly in touch with someone who's been through this Who might give you a bit of hope? Maybe some ideas, but maybe just listen can be really really helpful And you can do that by literally just like I'm linking them up When you're back in school, you might create a space and provide the tea Maybe even a biscuit if you can stretch to that that can really help You don't necessarily need to do loads more than that giving people a space To discuss can help and at the moment you might choose to do that virtually in just the same way your kids might be meet virtually And but I will look up so if you make a note and I will send you a couple of links through to there Are some really good kind of sources of support for parents out there, which I will share and recommend It's annoying that I can't remember the name now And Okay, next How do we support anxious parents who are transmitting their worries onto the child? I think we we've probably somewhat addressed that in the earlier question So lots here around the role of the parent and I think it's really important to note These are the questions that you've kind of asked and upvoted and we need to make sure That we don't add to that stress and the anxiety by taking in so far as possible a kind of a Supportive and solution focused approach, which doesn't attribute blame the parents and carers will be doing enough of that themselves already What they need for you to come in is to come in and say this is not your fault This is nothing that is wrong with you This is nothing that is wrong with the child Of course if you genuinely think it is the parents but if they're a child protection safeguarding issues here That's a whole another issue but in majority of cases this is not the fault of any particular person and Attributing blame isn't going to help and so instead we want to be supportive safe kind in our response and work together around the child A really good thing to do here is to think about how can we build connections and shared understanding? And the best way to do that is to think about what's the thing we have in common? It's the child to think about the things that we can Share in terms of our understanding and our care and our love of that child and celebrate What's great about them and use that as a beginning way forwards Where the parents anxiety is directly kind of triggering The child's anxiety we do sometimes need to tackle that head on and I think it is worth thinking about How do we do things like create a good routine for drop-off for example? So drop-off can be a particularly challenging time and imagine if you put yourself in the shoes of the parent or the carer This is a really anxious time Is it going to work today? Is he going to go into school today or am I going to get a tantrum? How's it going to be how's it going to be when he gets there? Is he going to is it going to be all right? There's so many worries for the parent of course They feel anxious and stressed and worried and the kids will pick up on that and one anxious person leads to another anxious person So the parents care are trying to get themselves as calm as they can They need to learn these calming and relaxation strategies to that's really helpful We can teach them some things around how they can try and communicate calmly even if they don't feel calm So so if we can send a link through to the calm communication course, that's a really helpful one But the very basic thing here we can do is think about what we're saying and how we're saying it So I always advocate slow low low communication. So even if we feel Stressed anxious angry if we can communicate calmly with the child Then we can begin to convey that sense of calm and the co-regulation Can begin to kick in and they will begin to feel calmer. So we're talking about slowing down what we're saying So physically making an effort to talk more slowly We're lowering the volume So when we're angry and anxious, we tend to speak more loudly. We shout we want to bring that volume down So it feels a bit calmer and we're thinking about lowering the actual tone So speaking less high pitched in a lower pitch Because when we're calm That's how we would speak think about your favorite audiobook It feels like it's kind of wrapping you up and giving you a cuddle. That's the kind of communication We want so slow it down Lower the volume and lower the tone and you can say almost anything and if you do it like that It comes across that little bit more calmly And also it can begin to help us to feel more calm as well So we kind of fake it till we make it a little bit Another really helpful thing there is just to have one or two go-to phrases And you just repeat them like a broken record in those times of high stress Um, so you've got your go-to phrases So you don't have to think when you're worried you just return You know, and they might be really simple things. It's going to be okay. You've got this you managed yesterday You'll manage today. And if you don't You can talk to x so whatever it might be that's reassuring to the child explore that together at times times of calm That was a big answer when I said I thought I'd already addressed it. Sorry. Okay. Um The next one What if the kids are going to a new setting with no familiarity? That's a that's a tricky one and obviously lots of our children at the moment We're worried about the missing out on the transition that we might traditionally have hoped and expected to do So if they're going to a new setting and they're not familiar with it What we need to do is think how can we make this feel more familiar? Okay, so something is always going to feel safer when it feels familiar That might mean making one friend that might mean having a 10 minute conversation with a member of learning support staff That might mean going and looking at the school when it's empty and just knowing where it is That might mean doing a practice day getting up putting the uniform on having breakfast Walking to the school or going to the school in however you would and practice what that feels like Try to think what are the small steps we can make to make the unfamiliar feel more familiar because what is familiar? Feels safer and safety will always help here So think about what we can do if you are working in school And you're thinking about how you're going to support a cohort of children to try and prevent You might be here with your prevention hat on rather than having a particular child in mind Think about how you can create a warm Comfortable and caring environment for all your children and how you can create that feeling of safety and familiarity So you might be doing something like creating a video about how is this going to feel? What does it look like in our school? You can just shoot it on your camera on your phone It doesn't need to take you very long, but show the child around the school And it might be that children are returning to what used to be a familiar environment But it's going to be unfamiliar because everything's changed because we're in bubbles and suddenly you're only allowed in certain parts of the school Or your classrooms changed or you're with a different adult Have a think here about what are the things that will stay the same? And what are the things that will be different and tackle that head on and reassure children with the things that will stay the same And try to make the new things feel more familiar by doing a virtual tour recording a video something like that Or even just you know writing it out and letting them know, but yeah If they're going to an unfamiliar environment think how can I make this feel more familiar? And if you are a A parent or a carer Proactively approach the school the setting about it say I'm worried about this I want to make sure that my child can transition in successfully Please can you help me and there will always be someone who is prepared to help you lots of them are on the call now There will always be someone um Okay, next amazing ideas to get students to communicate and share in my breakout session group 18 Please can we pull all our resources somewhere to share? That's a really really lovely idea Sophie i'm going to leave that idea with you Maybe we could do something like set up a shared google doc or word document that people could contribute to after the session Um, yeah, I'll let you think about that. Um, I think it's a lovely idea And I'd really like to think about how we can share these ideas And if you've got good stuff to share send it to Sophie and we'll think about how to share it So maybe we'll set up a shared document of some kind But in addition if you've got resources and things that you think other people should see on the course Um, do send them to us and we'll we'll do what we can with them Um, so any questions, um, okay next how do we re-engage with school refusers? Um, so that's kind of really the whole crux of what we've been doing today But if you've got someone who's got a history, um of of this being a real challenge for them And we're thinking how do we begin to build that? I think my key advice with that would be Work out what you know, as we said today really try and understand what the problem was there Try and understand how we can make this feel different for the child It's not it's not so about it being different. It's got to feel different for the child And think as soon as you can about what are the small successes that they might have And the other thing is that where a child's story is that they are a school refuser and I hate that term We this is why we use emotionally based school avoidance now But the old terminology and what everyone recognizes is school refusal And that makes it sound like the child's made an active choice when often This might look like an active choice from the outside But a child is driven by so many different worries and anxieties But if their story is one of school refuser We have not to underestimate how powerful that story is both in the telling by their community around them And of themselves so we need to help them rewrite that story And we need to help them reimagine themselves a little bit and to create a bit of a new identity And so we need to think how can we help this child to Tell a new tale about themselves and to have a real sense of belonging and purpose within this school How can we do that for them? Is there someone something somehow that they can begin to build a bridge and a bit of a connection And we can start to write that story again With older children We need to think about how we can help them save face as well It can sometimes be really embarrassing for them to return and they might be embarrassed and ashamed of things that have happened in the past So we need to think really carefully about how we enable them to manage that if they're if they're adolescent And for some children it can be that that relationship with the particular school Is just a bit too broken and we might begin to think about would they be better off with a fresh start? It's always a last resort, but it is you know, it's what we did with my daughter in the end And it's never what I would advocate first But in the end sometimes it's where you need to go and sometimes it's the right choice For the child and for the family and it's not necessarily in any way a reflection on any failing by anyone But rather that sometimes children just need a chance to reinvent themselves. We all need that sometimes um Okay, how can we Best engage children how can we best support children who may already have underlying trauma or adverse experiences? And or a co-occurring neurological difference such as autism or ADHD? That's a massive question, Liz. Um Um, I think that's kind of that's a whole nother session. Um, so with permission I would I would be really keen to pick that up and run with it Sophie when you send the notes out for this session, please also send the notes from the session We ran last week about um supporting autistic children to return to school because I think that will um, That will help the question here But it's it's it's just very very big to go into But many of the similar things that we did here and I think when we're thinking about how we support children with special educational needs um to return and Actually what we need to do for one we need to do for everyone So I'd almost usually flip the question and I'd be thinking about How can we all use the ideas that we normally reserve for our learners with special needs and use them to make Everyone feel confident and happy and safe and welcome and that sense of belonging um Here I think it's about understanding that there might be some particular issues Um that might be different for these children So for example, it might be that for the autistic child The wearing of the school uniform is a massive barrier to them and you might have overcome loads of other different challenges But actually the minute they put that school uniform on it feels deeply uncomfortable for them And this is the thing that's stopping them engaging Try and work out what those obstacles are and just think can we be flexible here? Um, and the other thing is that for our children with special educational needs We need to think more carefully about how we communicate this to and with them Um, and finally that we make sure that we take again that really genuinely Child-centered approach and that we take it as slowly as we need to Um, we will not succeed in the long term if we try to succeed too quickly in the short term That's hard because you will often be uh met with challenge that you've got to turn this around really rapidly Um, yeah, you you probably can make a difference really fast But will that difference be sustainable? Will that child actually be happy and ready to learn? Maybe not I'm supporting a child who has witnessed domestic violence against mum And this has been impacting his feeling of safety to go into school. How could we address this? Awesome. I'm trying to think how best to answer that is so big and so difficult and so challenging The most important thing here I'll go back to all the time safety The child needs to feel safe The mum needs to feel safe. They both need to feel safe and know that the other one is safe So a key thing here will be that the child will need to know if they've seen they've witnessed this They will need to know that when they leave mum in the morning that she is going to be safe today And that will often be for a child who's witnessed domestic violence That will be their overriding concern It will stop them being able to engage with anything any kind of learning is mum safe Knowing that mum is safe and you might need at the beginning If that is the the issue here and I've seen it many times It might be that actually we do regular check-ins with mum throughout the day And we're able to begin to wean that off but each might need to have that reassurance that yeah And that might be a text. It might just be a really quick check-in. It might be a five-minute phone call at lunchtime And it can be very little things but just that reassurance that yes, she's still safe And gradually we begin to then broaden that out and we realize that we can go the whole day And it's okay The child also needs to know that it's okay for them to be at school And they need to be given permission to relax and have fun and to be their own person As well as worrying about the things that they've they've seen And of course there's the much wider piece there around how we support and respond To that trauma, but yeah in terms of enabling them to attend In my experience the biggest barrier here is the child feeling they can't leave the parent because the parent won't be safe So we need to ensure that the parent is safe and we need to think about how we can reassure the child that that is the case If the parent isn't safe, then obviously we're triggering our our kind of safeguarding wide referrals and taking those other hats on there What can parents do to support children who are worried about returning? I think we've addressed that that's one that came up much earlier I really hope that was the the crux of the session at home Just looking down through to the others and we haven't addressed Thinking about children who are returning after a really long break so somehow will not be returning until September I think here turn towards all of your transition materials Anything that you would normally do to transition children into school if they were coming for the first time use this with every child And this will be relevant for everyone right now They might need reintroducing to the adults around them They might need to be reintroduced to school and life and how school life works in your school And also to any new rules and policies. So again, trying to think how can we make this feel more familiar? But a really good starting point. Most schools I work with these days have really good transition Practice so think about your transition and your induction practice for your students And use it for everybody Also, please think about the transition back in for your staff so many staff I'm thinking I'm working with right now feeling like massive imposter syndrome They've been away for a long time too And those butterflies that we all get at the beginning of the school year everyone's feeling them big time So it's not just about the kids here It's about the staff when we've got cappy and confident staff who feel safe and feel able Then the children's confidence and happiness and safety will kind of follow. So think about your staff as well Okay, where else are we going? So many big questions in here. I'm just going to do a last couple because I'm very aware of time. We'll finish at half past There's uh, sorry to button. There's a nice question about how can we start a dialogue with adults and children's lives When there are anti-school too. So this is a high school setting So when the adults are anti-school, yes Yeah, that's a great question. Why haven't I come up with that before? Great question. Whoever asked that So we do get this intergenerational school avoidance issue So if the family have a negative experience and relationship with the school Then it may well be that the child has learned this. So we will often find that Parents who were school avoidant will have children who are school avoidant and there's something about learned behavior there There's also something about well, if we don't think school's a great place. We might feed into that even if Actually at this point we're we're relatively positive But here we're thinking about so there's a negative relationship between the family and the school and that's causing an issue So our key thing here is about building that relationship back up So all the things that we've thought about with the child How can we make sure they feel wanted in the school? How can we do that for the family? We need the family to rewrite their story here as a whole So it's not just a child story that needs to be revisited but the families And if they've had a negative experience before how can we change their view on this? Let's actually stop and listen to them enable them to feel seen and heard And actually just stop for a moment and explore what are the challenges they face? Why is this relationship difficult? Actually beginning to be able to have that conversation is the first hurdle You need to overcome and you might need to think about how do you reach out to that family? Can you meet them where they are and sometimes where they are will be that you're going to chat with them on facebook? Maybe that's the one place you can engage them. It might not be that you can physically get them in Actually visiting them in their home if you've got a really kind of broken thing going on here having someone Visit them in their home can be really helpful think carefully about who you send You need someone who the family will not feel intimidated by so our family support workers are miracle workers here If we can begin to build trust there then that trust can be extended just like when we build attachments with children And those attachments can be transferred and multiplied. It's the same with the adults as well Where we have a family who are tricky for us to work with those who are most challenging for us Often if we invest the time These are where we will seek the best rewards because these are often the families who become ambassadors for our school These are the families who will tell other families. This is a good place where your child will be held and heard It's really worth investing the time There's often generations worth of Of difficulty there and there'll be all sorts of different things at the heart of that But taking time just to stop and listen and meet those parents where they are can begin to unpick this If they've had bad experiences, why should they trust you? You're gonna have to earn that trust. So that's the question to start with really how can we begin to earn that trust? Um, there's another question in here, which I thought was rather interesting. Not sure if you've seen it Um, I'm supporting a child who has witnessed domestic violence against mum And this is impacting the feeling of safety of going into school. How could we address this? I did that one, didn't I? Oh, you don't uh, I I have been listening, but there's been so much information No, that's okay Okay, let's have one last one one last one And then we'll wrap up I think that's the best one to finish on Pookey, can we can we do the one about the 14 year old son who regularly avoid school? Yes, well, can you read the quite can you see the question? Can you read it? So there's so many I have a 14 year old son who regularly avoid school. He won't talk to me and he won't talk to a counsellor How do I get him to open up because I'm in a similar situation First of all, I'm sorry to hear that Elaine and I yeah, I it's very hard and so the the two things I would suggest here are um We aren't going to be able to make a child talk to the person we choose But we might be able to encourage them to engage with the person they choose So just stop for a moment Think about their life And whether there are any adults there that you or they can identify With whom they've got something of a positive relationship So this might be someone who they know through an activity that they really enjoy Um, it might be a friend of a family Sometimes godparents uncles aunts can be good people here. It might be the football coach. It could be anyone What you're looking for here is someone who the kid likes And who they can engage with and maybe engage with specific activities So when we're doing things it's often easier for these conversations to involve unfold Our job then stops being the person having the conversation But rather thinking about how can I support this other person to begin and we're not expecting them to fix it But we can help Hopefully ask them If they can act as a bit of a mentor a bit of a guide a bit of a support to help us understand where the problems are Until we know what the problems are and what might be some positive first steps It's very very difficult for us to know how to help So trying to identify who that adult might be would be my suggested first starting point The other thing is always to remember that it's not about us Um, it's it's about the child and what works for them. So it can feel really hard as a parent You want to be able to fix this you want to be able to make it okay? And we can sometimes feel that if our child won't open up to us about this that that's failing on our part Often what's going on here is that you've got a child who cares deeply about you And they don't want to worry you or just stress you and they they don't want to explore this stuff with you Because they don't want to hurt you Um, and so sometimes having someone who's slightly removed from the situation can be really really helpful Um, you don't need to make a lot of progress to begin to feel like you are making progress And both you and the child often once you begin to see some positive starts And often you'll find that that will build that cycle of I can and it all becomes a bit more possible Does that help a little bit? Okay, it's half past five. So we will we will end and I really hope it was helpful and Sophie will send you through all manner of things afterwards If there was a question that wasn't addressed that you really want me to answer Do let safety know and I can always do a further Q&A at another point and we will do other sessions Do feedback to us about how you would like these sessions to work What you find what you would find helpful and also what you think might be good topics for future conversations like this as well And massive. Thank you from me to you for coming for staying for asking such great questions and for involving yourselves in the discussions And and good luck with it. Um, yeah, remember that you can Just to build on those positive moments look for the little glimmers of hope and hold them tight Thanks ever so much for your time everyone. Thanks for all that you're doing Thanks, Pookie