 Hello, hello, and welcome to another coordinating call of the M25, the movement for Europe, featuring progressive ideas you won't hear anywhere else. I'm Merron Khalili, and today we're discussing France, we're continuing our series of sessions of discussing any one country so we can talk about political state of play in that country and what the M25 could potentially do there. We'll start with Janice to set the scene and then we'll hand over for some interventions from our colleagues from the M25 in France and you out there if you've got anything to say any comments any questions for anyone that you see in tonight's call, then please put them in the YouTube chat and we may be reading them out between the interventions or try to keep our interventions reasonably short and let's kick it off over to you Janice. Thank you, Merron. Welcome to this CC call. It's a very difficult task to sum up such a large and significant countries political scene in such a short space of time. So what I will do is I will just concentrate on our experiences the M25 from 2016 when we set up the M25. It was always clear to us that France had to be a frontline state. The Troika that was doing so much damage in Greece. It was clear to me and I didn't need to even interpret it on my own. The German finance minister told me so. The Troika and Troi were causing a massive humanitarian crisis in Greece to send a message to Paris that you folks cannot have the Deutsche Mark as he called the Euro. He called the Euro, not me. While having national sovereignty, deciding what you're going to do with your budget. So France was always going to be central to what the aim is about. And we tried very hard. We reached a point where we exhausted all possibilities, every single possibility for an alliance with progressives in France. Let me remind those of you who don't know or who do know about you forgotten and inform those of you who don't know that we had countless meeting with the French Greens, with Mélenchon's party, many very fraternal and loving meetings with the French Communist Party, with various movements. In the end, we ended up having an alliance with Benoît Amon's Generation. Because they were the only ones who were in the end capable and interested in sitting around the table and coming up with a common program with DiEM25. I won't say more about that, you know exactly what happened. It was an interesting relationship, it was a difficult relationship. But unfortunately, Généracion imploded as a result of having failed to make the mark in the European Parliament elections. Ever since we had that first encounter with the ballot box in France, as DiEM25, as the European Spring, with Généracion, working as closely together as we could with anyone who would work with us, anyone who wanted a pan-European, transnational European Green Union, because the rest didn't. And that includes the French, right? We were far more interested in being bureaucratically and institutionally linked with the German Greens, that they were interested in having a Green New Deal that made sense even to them. I know this is a very strong statement to make, but I think it's an accurate statement. The result, of course, was that the two authoritarianisms, on the one hand the authoritarianism of Emmanuel Macron, of the radical center and of Le Pen, of the neo-fascists, win when progressives are failing to put together a common program and a common front. Tragically, after the European Parliament elections in 2019, our own organization imploded. Some comrades were very keen to maintain the link with Généracion. Généracion were imploding anyway. Others were far more interested in the internal processes of DiEM25, and they expended huge quantities of money, huge quantities of energy in fighting regarding the precise manner in which we do stuff in DiEM25. The fact that in the end the movement decided to have a very open system of internal governance where anyone could come up with DiEM members assembly in order to change everything with DiEM, even though we did come up with that process, in the end those who were fighting the internal wars didn't use it, and they went to ground. So it's clear to me that, like the rest of Europe, but much more pressingly in the case of France, if you look at the situation now where you've got Macron trying to encircle Le Pen from the right, by attacking some mythical alliance between Islamists and the left. Le Pen presenting herself more of a centrist, the Republicans trying to mind their own shop. The socialist and various other socialist groupings simply caring about their own jobs. The Greens having absolutely nothing to say about anything that is of significance, except that they want to get elected and they want to be together with the German Greens who are, or the liberals, deep down. And not particularly green these days. This is my conclusion. DiEM 25 has never been more necessary and at the same time never have we been so weak in a country as significant as France. As the CC, the Coordinated Collective, the only thing we care about is to enable you to take a lead in France and to do things. And to come up with a narrative about France, which is consistent with our manifesto, with our policies, with our Green New Deal, with the document that we recently approved of what Europe must do in the 2020s. We're here to support you. We're here to listen to you as to what needs to be done, what you can do and how we can help you do it in France. We have to build from scratch, but that's fine. DiEM 25 is a young movement. We've done a lot. And in the end, all that matters is, do we still believe that we have the right idea about France and Europe? I do. I believe that. We are all ears. Thanks, Janis. Let's hand it over to Laura. Hi, everyone. I'm really glad to be here with you. There are obviously a lot of things to say, but I will focus on maybe what irritates me the most actually nowadays in France and with the coming election. A few things are, I agree with Janis, some other less, but maybe I don't know the people too much to be able to talk about them. But for me, the main issue is the left being unable to unite, of course. We have a lot of left parties and they are really disappointing and it's really outrageous how in this situation, they're really only thinking about themselves and it's actually stupid because without uniting, there is no way they can actually win something and even pass the first round. So for me, it's maybe the first problem. I have another issue that really irritates me a lot and I think is a deep problem that we cannot solve quite easily. It's that way of voting useful, which means that according to some polls and some people voting for the one that might maybe have more chance to pass, they actually don't vote for the real mind. So we end up with some votes that it's actually undemocratic and we don't know what people really think. It's for me it's a big issue. And on what we can do, well, I have actually now two, I'm struggling with two options personally on what I am going to do. Either I play by the book and I do have to vote for someone on the next election, even though with that behavior, I really don't want to vote for any of them, but if I want to be consistent and think of a program that is the most Well, for me, the Green Party, at least the Green transition that they are holding for a few decades now is really the cornerstone of all other struggles. And in France in the last municipal elections, they had a lot of weight, they've been elected in really big cities. So it's, I think it's a message that people can hear that we have to do this big change and the Green Party is really the one we can refer to on that. For me, it makes sense to say it's the main priority, let's vote Green. That's if I'm being quite optimistic, if I'm being more realistic, I think that none of the left parties can be really past the first round if they don't unite. So I have, I'm thinking of a more disobedient action, collective action. I'm kind of dreaming that all the left voters would go vote for the first round with their own ticket saying Union of the Left and leaving behind all the other left parties. And I think it could give a big message on what what the people really stands for and what we can actually do. But maybe it's only a dream. And that's it for what I wanted to say. Thank you Laura seems we have a debate already. Hello. I guess in some ways, I would agree with Laura. I'm not from France I'm from Turkey but I've been living here for quite a while now so. So, like, if you ask how I see things. Of course, as Laura said there is the on unity problem I mean it's not like in Italy or in Germany where there is a lack of a popular firmly anti-Austrian left. This is like there's a bit too much too fragmented and which should not be. This is not in itself a problem but it becomes a problem within the French presidential system. And of course, because the way the party splits from the Socialist Party, Macron's party and the France and Sumi's and the way how the presidential system kind of really forces the parties to have like a standoff if you want. It's a problem. It's a big problem. And there is also sometimes big animosity between the parties and like more partisan, like unnecessary partisanship by some people that I don't understand. Of course, each party's have differing opinions, but not so fundamentally so to explain the animosity that currently exists. In my opinion again. So, what scan DM 25 doing this under these circumstances. I mean, I personally think there's already on the local and national level already enough. I get these parties are already well established. There's already enough tension, so I don't see really what DM, electorally could do anything. I mean, I think he shouldn't. I think it would be very counterproductive. But I also think that because that we see ourselves as a transnational party, it has the freedom most parties, for example, or political organizations wouldn't have is to like pick and choose campaigns around across party lines to support. That agrees with the 25 agenda so that's always good. And also, another thing that's DM 25 can back is coalitions and unity based campaigns which we had lots of coalition building on the local level already between parties which is new which is has given success to the left in the local elections. I think there's a growing appetite for that and also campaigns like the primary popular, which is like a citizen that campaign that is trying to do a citizen's primary to come up with a left candidates because of the frustrations of the parties to unite and to be able to do so themselves. So to really, we have to break this macro in the pan duo. I mean, obviously, and that that can only mathematically just logically be this way. So having said all this for me, it's really imperative for me that the does what it does and engages on a European project, like, because I can most countries in France, left parties, like truly anti-Australian left parties are reluctant to have any kind of ambitions for European elections because their constituencies are mixed, you know, there's the your skeptics, the exit years, those who have renounced completely you and then or those are that are not sufficiently you're a skeptical or that are pro-EU and they all these groups almost exist in all parties. So this is also a source, in my opinion, of growing frustration for those that are more international lists minded that they feel let down by their party. So it is a golden opportunity for DM to really speak to those people that say, okay, like here we have we have a very ambitious economic project, the European economic project. What is what is your party doing? You know, so I think this is a very good opportunity for DM and when more than now with the pandemic. Like when has it become more important for us to have international, I mean, when has people been so aware that we need international cooperation, when have we become so aware as societies that this economic system has, whether we want it or not has connected us all. So I think it's really time to boldly demand an economic project, a European economic project and not shy away from it. And I think this alone, because there's so many frustrated people, if we just really go on that, I think we can have a good future. And we just because not that we should have that the less should have an economic project is just like, we have to have it. I mean, thank you definitely sorry to hurry you, but we've got some other people that we have to get in as well no problem. Next up, Bernard, please try and keep your speech to about three minutes max if you can. Hello, everybody. I introduce myself Bernard Blondin, member of GM 25 for two years. Not very active, I admit. I have some difficulty with info to follow in English. And I am also active in a new well done, a small party with a very good idea, often the same as GM 25. Pierre La Routureau is a leader. He is a reporter for the European budgets. He recently went on a hunger strike for the taxation of financial transaction. In Europe, we support the Green New Deal. For us, it's the climate finance pact. I would not expand in short, we are fighting against neoliberalism, the financial capitalism, the source of all disturbances. We show this fight with other left force, each with a strategy, a poster and not yet a censor rally. While we are a whole show of one thing, whether the force of the left, a political and socialist, in which GM 25 has its place, do not unit and do not present a single candidacy, neoliberalism will continue on its way or ever, even more. I think to the pain. It's their force to the activists that we are, but also to the citizens concerned about their future. That is the ups to pressure so that this union is done. That a single candidacy appraise on a common base of measure, a program which is discussed. It's under this condition that we will win in 2022. This structure exists. It's the popular, the popular primary. We talk about which brings together many movements and party on the left. And since the subject is the purpose, the positioning of GM 25 for the presidential election of 2022 in French, I suggest and submit and submit for your approval. Our movement, GM 25 gets involved more, more strongly in this process of union, and that our activists and sympathies integrate the local committee, which carries these projects. Thank you for it for your attention. Excuse me for the accent. I hope you answered me. Thank you. That was very clear. Thank you, Ben. Now, Julia. Thank you, Miran. Hello. Good evening, everybody. To my French colleagues. Hello there. I'm speaking from the zero six Alps Maritime area, the packet area to give you an idea of location and a couple of things that I'd like observations. I want to make about French system without talking too much about the politics because I am not qualified to speak in such depths as my colleagues. Going back to what Janice was saying at the top of the meeting, when the European elections were on, it was deeply satisfying, despite what happened with the generation, it was deeply satisfying to go out into the public spaces and see the GM 25 logo on those posters. And I think that was an exciting step forward, irrespective of actually what happened. And my adopted, I would like to participate in helping my adopted country in certainly building the membership, the DM 25 membership, which is my interest for attending these meetings. And I would like to make the suggestion in collaboration with the agreement of the UK PNC, that if our French colleagues would like to join in with our very rapidly growing project with the Green New Deal, which is gaining some purchase in the UK. And the people's gathering, which I'm about to launch in the UK with the approval of the CC, if they think that's a good idea, I would invite our French colleagues to sit in on our meetings, come in and join us. Do not be concerned about your language because I'm going to be struggling in a second language as well. And we do have some French speakers on the UK team as well. So I just wanted to take an opportunity of my presence this evening to say if we can work together collaboratively, France is such a strategically important player in the DM movement that it needs to raise its profile. And I think with the Alliance movement that DM 25 is now being its reputation is growing in the UK for its alliance movement. I think if something like it appropriate to the French system could be repeated. I think that we're on the brink of something very big in France and I would like to just push forward with that possible project. So that's, I think I'll stop there. Thanks, Miran. I think you have the message. Thank you. Thanks Julia, Gabrielle. Hi, everyone. Thanks, Miran. And I think I'll go forward with those hopeful, with this hopeful call that Julia just said, with speaking about how much DM is an opportunity in France right now. Because the way I see it, I think DM really brings in a really rigid political landscape, this bottom up opportunity for people to get organized for the progressive left to get organized at the grassroot level to open those spontaneous to meet up to come together around campaigns, whether at the local level or, you know, at the international European level. And this is super relevant to the French context. And here I'll, I'll talk about something that has been talked about a lot, and I'll put my grain of salt in the conversation but I think the yellow vest movement to me the one main thing that I take out of, of what I mean is that people want to get organized people do, and people want to be part of this change and they're just tired of waiting for an outside power to come and and make the change that I want to see. And this is really what DM 25 is meeting the needs of French people and obviously of people in Europe as well. I'm really answering this need. And for example, with people's gatherings to mention this project. You know, DM 25 is here giving a voice to everyone even beyond the DM members membership, giving opportunity for people to come together and talk about, you know, build policies together shape our own policies. And this is super important at the moment and I think this is also what people are waiting for. And lastly, this, this, this bottom up perspective on politics is going against this reactionary politics that the left has taken and has been stuck in for the last decade. And it's instead, you know, it's getting people together to ask the question, what do we want to see instead of what do we rise up against. What do we want to build and what's next for us. So it's kind of rebuilding this utopia that so many people have lost along the way. And I think I'll, I'll stop on these kind of hopeful notes. Thank you. David. Thanks. Thank you for everyone. It was really nice to listen to you talk about the political situation in France. Look, let me be perfectly honest with you. The Greens are not the saviors of Europe, and they never will be not in France, not in Belgium, not in Italy, and most definitely not in Germany. And I'm not speaking just from political and personal experience with this over the last couple of years, especially with European elections. I'm also talking about given the assessment that we've made as the M25 on the political path, not only of the Greens, but of other so called left parties. And for example, I know that in France there are huge amounts of progressive citizen lists are fighting for power at the original level these are groups of people who are tired of the deception of the left of the so called French left. They're tired of the forced economy between the extreme centrists and the far right they're tired of being in a political system that basically and essentially and absolutely does not represent them. Our job I think is to get to those people. And the only way, the only way that I think we'll get to those people is by growing our membership in France going out there into the communities knocking on doors telling them why the M25 ideas are winning ideas and why our ideas actually address and tackle their concerns on the daily on the day to day life that they live. That's the only way that I see of us becoming politically relevant in France. And in order to do this, obviously we need you that are here with us tonight. We need those of you are watching us maybe you live in France. We need all the other members of the M25 in France to get active. And that I think by doing that will you will help us to raise our profile and become the alternative voice that I think so many people in France are desperately crying out for. Remember, these are people looking for a political home. You know, let's provide them with one and they will join us and we will achieve the things that we need to achieve just look what's going on in Greece with Meta, the amount of thousands of people we've captured. Thousands of people that have come on our side now it's we can do this everywhere else it's not just in Greece will do it in Germany and France wherever it needs to happen. Thanks David and the magic URL to join is dm25.org slash join rosemary. I want to ask a question of our French fellow members of the M25 who have spoken. I'm just thinking of Gabrielle's citing of the Gilles Joan as an inspiration. By the way, my French is not very good but I have learned that she's Gilles Joan. So I'm proud of myself on that front. That wasn't extraordinary movement is probably still is an extraordinary movement. But one of the really interesting things is that we weren't told anything about it. It was never reported in our news over in the UK. It was almost as if a message got out to the media. Don't touch this with a barge pill. And indeed we don't hear very much about the extraordinary amounts of activism on the ground in France. There are trade union demos, their meetings and theaters all over France, talking about how can we build that better after college. The Gilles Joan thousands of citizens and millions of citizens actually wrote hundreds of proposals and took them to their local methi that they wanted to see France change in a progressive direction. What we have to ask ourselves is why did not a single left wing party confidently go and and involve themselves commit themselves to that movement. Why did the trade unions come and are about whether they're going to support the Gilles Joan. You know, most of the discussion that we got and when we get it at all is about just how many far right people there are in the Gilles Joan. And yes, of course there are. They will be everywhere because they are everywhere in Europe. But there are a lot of other people as well and there were not movements that really worked with them. So it's all very well saying GM25 is going to do it. But what exactly has GM25 got to offer. I think we have to think this through very carefully. And I think we have to think it through carefully on the basis of being this dual creature is hybrid creature, which is both a movement and potentially a party. Because there's a lot of work for an active movement to do on the ground, actually going and talking to people who want to protest. But who are not active. There is more voter suppression, voter people who don't vote in France than practically any other country and 40% of the sort of manual workers don't vote at all. Quite a lot of citizens in France are not deemed to be citizens, so they can't vote. And another 10% simply don't vote. And there are more and more trade unions where trade union members are not voting. There are more and more elections all over France where people can't be bothered because they don't believe anything is going to happen. And there I mean I think Julia's idea is quite an interesting one of getting English people and French people to compare notes. Because the one thing that we have is an enormous enthusiasm now for Boris Johnson and what he's done for us. And we don't have any people out on the streets. We have absolutely no protest going on. Well I mean I'm probably getting that wrong but we have very very little I'm sure I've heard French people living in the UK say how on earth can you put up with this government and not want to go and demonstrate in the streets. There's a curious difference there that we ought to be discussing because I feel that in the UK we are equally stuck. We're equally stuck with coming up with precisely the kind of leadership, the sort of political party, the sorts of movements that could involve people who have frankly given up. They don't believe in the politicians. And that's the discussion I would like to hear as a hat. Thanks Rosemary and does anyone like to respond to that. And it's also in the chat to opposing views. Bernard's proposal to ask the M25 members in France to support primary popular and David wondering if they're really well, suggesting that there is no space for another political party in France that's willing to do was no start again. I misread it. Do we believe that there is another political party in France right now willing to do what's necessary. I don't think so. So yes there is. Anyone that wants to reply? Yanis. Very briefly. I don't think we are ready to answer the question. But this is a question that we must pose. We've got two major questions to address. One is what kind of campaigns do we want to do in France. Because only through campaigning on the ground, can we gain legitimacy for having an answer or any contribution to the second question, which is what do we do electorally? Whom do we support? In the European Parliament elections, we did not stand on our own. Of course, we are the very small movement and we're even smaller now. To do this, we supported the only party, actually two parties. You're very right Bernard. It was a Nouvelle-Donne as well as the generation. Of course Nouvelle-Donne is tiny, but they were also part of the European Spring. And we supported them because they were willing to sit around the table, not accept our own manifesto, but work with us to come up with the manifesto. So I think that that should be our approach once we have worked out what kind of campaigning we want to do in France. Personally, Bernard, I am in favor of the popular primaries. This would be a wonderful thing to be able to organize and to be part of it. And to have debates before the primaries, not just voting, but also having a debate amongst progressives as to what needs to happen. And that's where DM25 could play a very significant role in those debates. So this is just the first meeting that we're having with DM France. I think it's a very good foundation to start building up towards answering those two fundamental questions. Now I need to apologize because I need to go because I have to be on a BBC debate very, very soon. I'm very stressful and partly boring and disheartening, but I have to do it. It's a dirty job, somebody has to do it. So I have to bid you farewell and I'm very much looking forward to continue this discussion about France very soon. Thanks Janice, good luck in the debate. We've got a couple of comments and questions coming in from the outside. The first is the big logical mistake with uniting the left is that you get one lazy self-interested party plus one lazy self-interested party equals two lazy self-interested parties and not one big great party for the people. Another comment what gives me some hope is that some Green Party politicians around Europe are supporting the Green New Deal described by DM. So that's our Green New Deal for Europe instead of the quote new innovation spheres for the corporations and a question from George Turner, perhaps some colleagues in France might like to answer. Given the inadequacy of so-called leftist parties in France, where have leftist voters directed their energy towards? Is it apathy or a shift to the right or are they still within nominally left parties? Anyone want to take any of these comments to respond to or questions? I know Julia would like to get a word in. Okay, Julia first and then anyone else? It was really just to make another observation as an interloper as a doctored country. I think there's huge scope here in France, given the different structure that we obviously we are familiar with in the UK, the national regional and local municipality in that there's more awareness. Because of the concentration of the population, the demographic around these key cities in France means that people are more aware and they are much more engaged and know how to work with their local municipality bureaucracy. Then I am aware of in the way that people connect in the UK with their local authority and I think DiEM25 has great scope with that working horizontally and with people's knowledge of the political system here. So that was just one observation. And but also the issue related to that is the obligation to connect with the rural communities because along with the concentration across the six or seven major cities in France, there are obviously hundreds and thousands of smaller communities that need to be linked as well. And I do believe in the past that France had a very good weekly Archipel system that tried to connect people obviously online and I think that would be a new incarnation of that would be a good suggestion as well. So again, it's not a I'm not commenting specifically on the political parties in the connection of voting, more the way that we can connect to the membership with each other because I think there is a huge DiEM25 potential across there. And to decide on that campaign as Yanis was saying. Thanks, Miriam. Thank you, Julia. Another comment from Jean. I think a big issue is that most people believe they have no real power and that their voices will not be heard. There need to be small successes that people experience as acts of empowerment. Good point. Anyone want to chime in? Floor is open. Johannes. Yes. Unfortunately, I cannot provide very good answers to voter movements in France someone from the French comrades has to do that. I wanted to say exactly on the quickly on the last point empowerment is a good example we have for example in the 25 a project called campaign accelerator where we empowered people recently also quite successfully in Portugal for example to protect a small piece of land from fencing it off from the public and actually a real impact on the ground, helping the local community to gain that access or regain that access that they should have to their beautiful nature over there. And I think a lot of other things are possible around Europe and we will be working on that. That's why what I wanted to let you know the other just little remark on all those little parties that are maybe coming up or not, you know, we have a little bit of a similar situation in Germany as well where I'm speaking from. One good thing about DM 25 is and I can tell you since I was last weekend on the matter 25 party Congress the first ever in Greece, which was a very inspirational and very good experience to see how much you can build if you put in a lot of hard work and a lot of consistent work continuous work, gathering people trying to make them understand each other, let them work together and build something that we could, I think also after we lay a certain foundation on the ground with movement work first. Because what we in DM provide is if you're, if you're starting a party in France, potentially maybe, then you wouldn't be just a tiny party in France, you would be from the beginning, a little party in France that is part of a European movement and European project. So something quite big. So that's just what I wanted to to let you know in terms of thinking ahead and thinking big maybe thinking about something you topic to change politics in France. Thanks Johannes Judith. Yeah, I think what Johannes just said is so important for us to have these transnational ties and to learn from each other and to visit each other. And because I remember when I got interested, I guess the, the starting point for me that brought me in a direction similar to DM 25 was the Greek crisis 2015. And I was reading German newspapers and suddenly noticed they were all saying the same they were all, like, even racist towards Greeks, calling them lazy and corrupt and everything. And so I wrenched out I didn't just be German newspapers. I started reading American ones I started reading French ones I started reading Greek ones once I got enough knowledge of Greek. And it was striking, really, especially comparing German and French ones because my Greek was not immediately that good but at the beginning I was just comparing the headlines in Germany and in France. And it was very often that in Germany, the newspapers had big like headline with a countdown. In the days that they grease must accept the new contract a new, the new treaty, the new conditions. Otherwise they'll be out of the euro and it will be all over and they would constantly every single day, or at least once a week, they were creating this kind of kind of reporting. And I look in the French newspapers online, of course, and there was not a squeak, not a squeak that today was in any way important for for Greece's membership in the euro. And there was something fishy going on that, you know, you cannot, it cannot be a big, big date if France is not even writing about this negotiation and veld has a countdown with like latest updates. So it's, we need this perspective, we need to talk to each other and to convey to each other what is going on, what our media are trying to pretend is going on, and then to compare notes and figure out what is actually going on and how can we best influence the world. Thanks Judith, and being based in Greece I concur with everything you said. I have a question from the chat. See who wants to take it. Another problem I see with the n25 winning ground is basically in basically any country is reliability basically any populist party will discredit DM as anti national as an anti national communist party. How can we counter this. I would like to offer the alternative you, or should we just let that, let that stand. Nobody is everyone just speechless. Anyone. Definitely. You put you go. I don't have an answer to this but I have, I agree with the statement somewhat, but this is why I think it is important to have not only a passing relationship but more access to people. Because trust is a big issue. And I think with the disengagement of people from politics, there are certain trigger issues where people, some people or the majority of working people maybe very present also in the gilet jaune. They've seen as like the they see your skepticism as a emblem of trust. The moment you're talking about a European project yes there is this problem, but I think it's just if we can. I think this is why the pandemic is very good to show people how things are connected and we can't just have national solutions and each nation for itself raised to the bottom won't do anymore, because not because there are any social or idealistic reasons but just for because of very solid material and economic reasons so yes, that would be my answer to that I guess, not really an answer but my two, my two cents. Thank you definitely. Anyone else we've got eight minutes before the the hour is over. Any sort of last comments or thoughts, responses to things you've heard. David. Yeah, thanks. Look, just just a little answer based on that from the question that you just put. I think having confidence confidence in our ideas knowing that our ideas as I said earlier are winning ideas and that they can indeed be ideas that people would agree with if only they knew if only we have the capacity to to reach people in a way that perhaps other political parties with a bigger organization bigger structure do, and obviously more money. I think our that confidence is super important to overcome the kind of propaganda that undoubtedly there would be to discredit them I mean we're talking about politics here so it won't be easy obviously but we need to talk to people even to those people who might disagree with us might not know anything about what we're proposing for for their country or what we're proposing for Europe or what we're proposing for the kind of restructuring of the world governance system that we're talking about is really far away from their reality, but we need to talk to to them you know we need to talk to people and and not be afraid to to have discussions and debates you know that at the end of the day that's the only way. I think we can try to overcome that that propaganda. I think that the person who put the question of being challenged that we were a sort of communist party that was against nationalism. I mean, it did have a core truth to it in that we are up against various kinds of nationalism. I think both some left nationalism. And, of course predominantly right nationalism. And I do think that we've already mentioned the answer as we've discussed things tonight because I do think these small impalments are what we have to offer, not the identification with the strong man, not the identification with you know where the real people and this is our country. And then you get into terrible conflict with everyone else who are not the real people, but enabling people, particularly locally to get things done that they want to do together and enabling them to debate things where they differ without the roof falling in. And I think that if we can be a kind of party and the kind of movement that offers that deeper democracy. And then I think we'll show very quickly that if they want to call it communism. So be it. But actually, we have something to offer that people will will enjoy and will empower them. That's the crux. And we've got a lot of work to do, because most people who are looking for the alternative are in despair, as we've been said, many times. Thank you Rosemary. And since we don't have any other speakers, I think that's a nice point to end on so work will continue on the M25 in France you just witnessing early discussions now will continue the work in that's been mentioned in this call on people's projects, our Green New Deal campaign in France and campaign accelerator of course which is both that and people's gatherings are DM 25 wide projects. So, that's it. See you in two weeks, same time, same place where we will be discussing the refresh of our manifesto, which our membership is currently debating. Thank you.