 Boom, what's up everyone, welcome to Simulation, I'm your host Alan Sokian. Really excited to be talking about cataloging and navigating consciousness. We have the Qualio Research Institute team joining us. Hello guys. Hello. Hi Alan. Hello everyone. Hello. Welcome back. This is our third episode of Quali Research Institute. Very excited. You guys are doing some of the most important work in neuroscience and consciousness today. Very excited to have you guys back. This time we have Romeo joining us as well. Very excited to have you on. And we have Kenneth and Quentin joining us as well. Hello. Hello. And Andres and Mike of course from the previous episodes as you guys know. Alright so let's jump into things with understanding what it means to even explore the state spate of consciousness in the first place. To see this beautiful catalog of what is possible with state spaces of consciousness. We have great graphics as we go through. Yeah. Yeah. So well this graphic is actually pretty illustrative. So that's what's called the color space, CLM specifically. So basically what you can do is use combinations of lights like for example you know a red and green, blue light with different like amplitudes, different energies. And see basically how much you need to change the lights for a person to experience what's called a just noticeable difference in their experience of color. So it's kind of you're comparing to side by side two colors and it's like are they exactly the same or they're subtly different and if they're subtly different you count that as a unit. A unit of a just noticeable difference. And if you start using that as your ruler it's kind of like oh you use the just noticeable difference as kind of a ruler and you start to kind of like pin all of the values of experience that way. In the case of color you end up with that three dimensional space basically it has three dimensions. It has the blue, yellow axis, the red, green axis and it has like the brighter and darker axis. And it's fabulous that it turns out to be a Euclidean 3D space. It could have been different. The paradigm doesn't impose a Euclidean geometry to it. The Euclidean property seems to be kind of an intrinsic feature of the status of color. But this is just with color. In principle you can do these with flavors and smells and sense of touch and emotions and you can basically generalize it in order to make a map of all types of Quillia varieties. Basically a Quillia variety is a type of consciousness where like for example a Quillia variety could be the variety of color. These would be the state space of color. You could also have the state space of emotions and sense and textures. And I think like the next slide actually might be a good example of the state space of emotions. You know, you try to kind of like map them out. Grief, sadness, interest, optimism, ecstasy, love. And I mean they're all related in interesting ways. And the question is how do you put them in a map so that their relationships in how they feel are in a sense encoded in the geometry of that map? Yes. I mean as I said like in the case of color you can have a 3D Euclidean space. For emotion is more complicated. You may need something like a hyperbolic space. You can get away with Euclidean space for some things but not for everything. Okay, so let's start unpacking this. So one of the things that I think is really relatable right there off the bat is when we see color. So we see one shade of blue and then we just pose it with another shade of blue. And let's say if it's no units of difference then we believe that the state space of consciousness is the same if it's no units of difference. But if there is a single unit of difference or ten units of difference which you're trying to measure with like this ruler that you're describing in the space then you could say that the state space of consciousness changes in the mind and then is there then a if you move only one unit versus if you move ten units would there be a more like a more subtle smaller change for one unit and a little bit bigger change in the state space for it? Yeah. I would I mean kind of like a worded as by changing your consciousness you're accessing different regions of the state space of consciousness. In some sense the state space of consciousness never changes it's just is kind of like the universal map of all possible experiences but yeah if you just take your experience and you just modify one shade of color in one piece of your visual field then we'll be making one step in that very high dimensional state space of consciousness. You can do much more radical transformations of course if you change the entirety of your visual field or you know you change your experience or state of consciousness you would be moving much further but yes but in a sense the state space of consciousness never changes is a feature of the universe. Okay yes and then now we gave the example of color as part of a visual input stream then we started giving this massive amount of emotions that different people can feel there's so many other ones of these so scent is another one so you have to catalog the state space for scent then catalog the state space for taste and for touch and for audio and for all these emotions and visions that we talked about and then you have to if someone is experiencing two of these different maybe a visual and an auditory or visual and a taste at the same time I mean this gets super complicated super quick with the state space of consciousness so you like silo off the state space of consciousness for all these different sensory inputs and then you also try and figure out when two of them work together or when four of them work together yeah I know it's a what it might be called kind of a combinatorial explosion as soon as you start introducing more clearly a varieties and and yeah the truth seems to be that there's like some constraints between them but they're definitely not intuitive you definitely have you know people with synesthesia for example who naturally are able to bind together for example at sensations of sound together with sensations of color which is something that most people can't and that is also you know a component of the state is of consciousness is which of the quality of varieties can be bound together in your experience and that's another kind of like area to explore like basically what is the space of possible ways of binding different quality of varieties I mean we humans are kind of have a natural or like a typical way of binding it which seems to be evolutionarily advantageous but in some sense we could say that we're all synesthetic it's just that we are basically experiencing an evolutionarily advantageous type of synesthesia and then is within if we can get at least I think more people to try to be aware of how a different stimuli is then causing us of them to have a specific state space of consciousness so as long as we're becoming more conscious of okay a certain stimuli is how is a certain state space of consciousness you know when I feel good it's a certain way when I feel bad it's something else is state space here when I see blue certain thing when I see red certain thing when I smell something certain things so if you can at least start getting people to become more conscious about I think that gets the catalog more and more and then do we have another asset with with this I mean that gets into the navigation okay let's beautiful let's shift right into navigation then so we explain the catalog so let's talk about navigating between because some usually it's kind of like we're just going through and then all of a sudden we become happier or we smell something or we taste something yeah touch something I'll just briefly mentioned this light and then somebody else should jump in but it's a what that's like represents yeah yeah it's the this is from research I did in grad school which was mapping out the transition probability between different emotions so we took like a hundred and seventy emotions and we in fact you know massive amounts of people we ended up having like more than a million data points about how people transition from one emotion to the next yes we would build models of like given your sequence of previous emotions what other emotion you're likely to go to in the future and with this kind of map you find fascinating features of the navigation space because it turns out that there's for example these gateway emotions like for example feeling hopeful feeling relieved those are like it's not just kind of the sensation of a good or like you possibly valence if you feel hopeful or you feel relieved that's a lot of information about where you wear in the past and where you're moving towards so there's kind of like all of these topology as well of the gateways emotions attractor emotions emotions that basically are reflectors that they don't for example feeling tired it doesn't matter in what region of the state space of consciousness you are what emotions you were in most people feel tired at some point of the day not everybody but most people tired is not a very high information emotion but hopefulness is a very high information emotion tells you a lot about the trajectory of the person well yeah this is huge so it's harder to get from something that's like an edge point past like cheerfulness or excitedness to something that's like annoyed or yeah it's harder to get from edge point edge points usually you have to go through these main center gateway points yes then you can gain more information from certain points about trajectory and past yeah and about other ones it's kind of like a map of how to navigate it to okay it's like if you there you're if you want to go to a very different emotion you know it's like what oh yeah you know empirically what are what is like the typical transitions between emotions that will get you there yeah it's also very important to note that some of these experiences some of these emotions are more pleasant than others by by far yeah and part of navigation or part of sort of mapping is understanding this and understanding that a good map tells you where the good places to go are as well in in the Middle Ages allegedly this might be true or just a story but in these old maps they had marked here be dragons where people went and didn't come back from or there were big troubles and this is mean yeah in terms of mapping consciousness we are absolutely in the early days here but yeah there are bad places in the state's face of consciousness and we need navigational principles in order to understand where not to go and I feel that's a core part of this research there be dragons in anxiety and depression and suicide yep the dragons evil forces so how do we avoid or kill the dragons yeah how do we navigate away from yeah that state space yeah by cataloging and then helping people move with little dissonance in those directions okay other thoughts on navigation you guys yes sort of as Mike was alluding to I think that having a map of the state space of consciousness also allows us to compare experiences in terms of their valence so like for example one of the worst experiences known to humans is a cluster headache which is an extremely extremely severe headache often rated a 10 out of 10 on the pain skill so being able to quantify the valence the negative valence associated with those kinds of experiences and comparing them to others allows us to determine which experiences are the ones we want to avert the most yeah and I think that it also allows us on the other side of the equation to say there are probably states of consciousness which no one has ever experienced over the course of human history which would be really great to explore and having this map would allow us to in a principled way sort of know what direction we're going in have a north star of positive valence and yeah I think that's like something that we could definitely explore further to damn yeah from the worst headaches in the world to the states of consciousness that have not even been explored that are extremely positive yeah and there may be a very simple set of equations that describe how to get from between those two points and yeah just in general a lot is at stake in figuring this out yeah for hope and hopefully in forms that are decentralized open source and loving compassionate ways and not yeah overly like manipulative corrupt yeah yeah ways yeah Romeo thoughts on catalog navigating feeling all right beautiful so what does it mean to have no dissonance in between the navigation of the state space of consciousness so this leads into this theory of emotional valence that this theory of what makes an experience good and what makes an experience bad and so cure is our hypothesis here is called the symmetry theory of valence and it's this idea that if we have a mathematical representation of what it feels like to be Alan or what it feels like to me like that if we the pleasantness or unpleasantness of that experience should somehow be encoded into this mathematical object this mathematical representation and we we believe the the encoding is in this objects symmetry so so more symmetrical with the states of consciousness that are really pleasurable and less symmetrical with the headache yes yes and a kind of a simple way to put this is harmony in the brain feels good dissonance in the brain feels bad and is this true that the extreme headache states are like extremely I mean there's a kind of like a lot of like lines of evidence pointing towards it not specifically for cluster headaches that hasn't been studied in that way but when it comes to like all sorts of perceptual artifacts that come from like negative states of consciousness and how to induce them yeah there's kind of a suggestion that it has to do with this concept of like roughness and dissonance we actually have an example over there it's actually not completely so yeah well if you look at the spectrum there's a spectrum picture right yes that one okay that's the that's the spectrum of the Bart I think I believe like between 24th Street and Mission and Balboa Park one of the most unpleasant sounds not to me oh it's the high-pitched screeching noise when yeah it's it's it's kind of high-pitched I mean it's it really has like it's for a wall component to be doing like 400 Hertz and 500 Hertz with some like upper registers as well but yeah but it's good it's good I think I think you played the bad part I think I think we're good thank you yeah so it's a I mean it's it's a very very straightforward example of how physical process that almost maximizes roughness can really harsh your mellow I mean I mean it's really a Boschial to be in the Bart like you're having fun with your friends and all of a sudden these like yeah incredible speed and you know a lot of people would be very puzzled about like hey like why is it so bad and that's like something that we are trying to answer we were being developing basically algorithms that can take sounds like that and say yeah that's really horrible for for a number of good reasons having to do with like the mathematical roughness of it the lack of invariance and symmetry and I mean I would add that I mean hacking your emotions through sound is one of the straightforward ways mostly because the the number of pre-processing steps between auditory stimuli and brain state are very few as opposed to for example pre-processing between visual stimuli and brain state so auditory stimuli the shape of it is going to be very related to the actual shape of the brain state that is triggered by it so in a sense kind of like the the structure of a sound is going to be kind of a window into into how it's going to affect the structure of your brain state you can tell a lot about what places are good or bad based on the structure of the sound that triggers good or bad feelings okay and then what would then if this is on the side of extreme dissonance and you could be in a very symmetrical state and then experience super dissonance and then that you could map you know how that actually affects someone's state's biggest consciousness what would be an example of the most symmetrical states well in in music there's definitely a lot of examples I mean not not to sound all all new age but any for example if you run it through the sort of software we're developing it comes out as like very very very consonant very very very symmetrical over time I mean like the sound engineering involved in like any a song is kind of really hitting the spot when it comes to like maximizing consonants and like all of these like reverb effects as well but and yeah and yeah yeah and yeah and yeah and yeah a boy a boy's gotta you know dive into other space spaces but I mean for example like a Buddhist singing bowls as well those are like highly highly consonant oh yeah yeah and generally speaking the chorus the chorus part of songs tends to be very much in the direction of very high consonants which is kind of like the part that tends to be the most hedonic of a song the reason why songs are not just chorus is because that would get boring and basically if you trigger boredom then that will itself cause a little bit of dissonance you will fail to appreciate it but if it's like those high amounts of consonants like in the chorus of a song then you can really get into it okay and just to set the frame we're working on ways to evaluate the the consonants the harmony in sounds as well as the dissonance with the eye toward if we can do it to sounds there is also a method to do it to brains to actually evaluate in a precise mathematical sense how much harmony is in a brain state and you could hypothetically imagine a world in which the part would sound very consonant if you properly employed some of these algorithms that you're developing I think I'm an important question here that a lot of people ask similarly to can we feel good all the time is well if we need these if we only have these pockets of consonants in popular music is it required for us to have the dissonance in between those pockets of consonants in order for the sound to be pleasurable and our contention is that you don't necessarily have to employ dissonance in order to achieve contrast and so I think that's an important thing for people to understand too is that you don't necessarily have to suffer in order to appreciate the contrast of feeling good you can sort of start at zero and go to infinity rather than having negative infinity to possibly infinity yeah that one's that one's really important actually one of the I think things that have been in debate in the last couple of years with our friends has been that do we really need to experience suffering in order to understand what is on the positive infinity side of things to be actually have something to contrast it with be great for and stuff and the potentially one of the hypothesis is that we don't the frame I would offer is that empirically human brains seem to kind of be built this way that we tend to oscillate between suffering and pleasure and there does seem to be some useful thing we as humans get from that but it doesn't seem to be a law of the universe that you have to suffer to feel good that there is this hedonic balance and presumably we could if we're if we're making a new organism from scratch we wouldn't have to program in that the organism would have to suffer okay and let's I'm on a little bit more on this symmetry theory of valence let's explain more about how exactly we can do things like potentially having a mathematical representation of a state space of consciousness that is symmetrical yeah I think the next slide maybe that yeah well this this kind of like illustrates was meant to be a video but otherwise okay no no problem oh sweet yeah so those are the the the harmonic states of a plate this is called a cladney plate basically if you make it vibrate with like a speaker for example at a certain frequency yeah exactly it's gonna basically lock in into a nearby resonant mode and the really cool thing is that there's only an integer number of possible resonant modes there's there's not an infinite number of shapes you can make and the reason why is that there's only a certain number of ways in which kind of this mechanical wave can fit an integer number of times in the shape of the plate so in a sense you can like discretize this is already getting very technical okay it's well yeah explain this so you so we're saying that the amount of symmetrical states are limited the number of resonant modes resonant modes are limited and then they get any given point in time you're experiencing a weighted sum of many resonant modes okay basically the vision is the equations that tell you what shapes form on this plate this so you basically sprinkle salt or sugar on these cladney plates and then you you can kind of visualize the waves and the same equations which predict the shapes at different frequencies are the same equations were applying to the brain okay so if I'm at 345 Hertz and that's making a symmetrical state for me that may be through a process of something like I'm meditating or I'm experiencing a form of symmetry of flow state or listening to the course of the music whatever it may be right and so then the same way that you visualize salt or or sugar in a symmetrical state on the could be the same way that that same mathematical equation could be of what and so I'm trying to keep that state I'm trying to hold on when people get lost in the flow state or deep in their meditation that they're just extending and extending that period and then so they've basically been having that same equation happen for a period of time right I mean in a sense it's kind of like the higher the valence which is the more pleasant the state is it's kind of like a function of the total consonants like it's basically the the way in which those harmonics are interacting to the get together are they interfering in a in a positive way or are they interfering in a destructive way and one key there is that in a sense like the the richness of your experience would have to do with how many of those harmonics you're able to feed in a consonant way I mean is that there's a difference between just hearing you know a melody played with like two or three notes in a piano versus a whole orchestra and there's like a whole you know art is a whole art and science to how to feed a whole orchestra of instruments into something that sounds good when you have like all of these different frequency channels and different timbers and different ways of softening the sound and likewise like a peak experience is not just a necessarily a pure simple you know resonant mode there's more kind of this assembly of resonant modes that fit really well together and this would look a little more scattered if it wasn't a dissonant state yes be any symmetry that right rough it would look rough unbalanced and constantly changing okay and yeah just to offer a little context here so that's what suffering is rough unbalanced constantly changing yeah kind of like turbulence yeah kind of like turbulence turbulence all right yeah turbulence is a good metaphor for this yeah shins and young talks about turbulence is suffering and whoa and just to to offer some context here this is based off the work of a neuroscientist by the name of seven this way she's at Oxford and the paradigm is called connect them specific harmonic waves and it's a way of interpreting neuroimaging existing techniques fMRI DTI MRI and adding it together to figure out the brains natural resonances just like a guitar piano or a wine glass has these natural resonances this is a way of measuring them in a brain and what we're doing is we're building on top of this analyzing this this data for harmony basically and then the the idea is then that if you can then start doing things like conducting like fMRI scans of symmetrical states of consciousness then you can start cataloging and cataloging and you can make that that beautiful representation sure I mean I think one very very important frame here is what you can measure you can manage and if this is a tight proxy for how pleasant a brain state is then it lets us understand if a brain if a person is in pain if they are suffering it allows us to pinpoint where is the suffering coming from because we can look at the mathematics of the the frequencies and the distance and say oh it's this specific harmonic it's the frequency is drifted or it's oscillating in a strange way or whatnot and it allows us to calculate the turbulence that's occurring right right and figure out how to fix it basically okay and yeah go ahead yeah sure as I mentioned we've talked a lot about human brains here but this paradigm could also be applied to not human animals as well and it could be a really interesting way to directly scientifically determine whether or not animals were suffering because I think that is a question that is a lot of people's minds and there are some people who think that non-human animals not capable of suffering and this might be a way to determine that they actually are and even even further in the future maybe it's something that could be used on on other other types of brains on artificial intelligence for example to determine what what state is that AI and what state is this animal and how do we fix that for them in addition to ourselves yeah yeah there's also even even the pool even like a plant for if the plant is is having insects eat it or hasn't having the right nutrients in the soil or sunlight and starting to die I mean is that then an expression of consciousness dying hard to say at this point hard to say at this point yeah yeah I would say all the way up to the AI yeah this method could be applied to literally any organism organism with neurons assuming that there's a some proxy relationships and plants have only cells they don't have plants have only cells but you can see a stress response happening in the plant when it gets yeah yeah not to get too to academic here but I'll just throw these this is not necessarily qri line this is more an argument by David Pierce we've we've talked briefly about it but one reason why plants are not as I mean they could be conscious we don't know but definitely there's the purely physiological component that the cells are divided by thick cellulose walls so whatever is the the mechanism of action for binding for neurons actually talking to each other and being able to synchronize with each other that doesn't seem physically possible between the cells of a plant okay but who knows okay so it's potentially how neurons are able to communicate with each other with more thin the transmitters that type of mission that makes it yeah versus the thick walls of plant cells okay so on the non-human animal aspect that's in humans we see there's this strong factor of default hedonics at point some people go through life just happier than others some people had very high some people have very low and this is this is very interesting that even within humans you find an enormous range of of hedonics at points and it's interesting to think about if you see this amount of variance within humans how much variance will there be between species and maybe it turns out it's just pretty fantastic to be a dog yeah our dolphins are just constantly ecstatic right and maybe it's just terrible to be a giraffe or a mouse yeah someone that's constantly in fear of being consumed by another animal yeah so in the sense it could move the the whole field of understanding non-human sentience or non-human I guess while animal suffering or what not yet to a more quantitative basis yeah like to be able to say that a specific animal has has a tendency to move towards specific states basis consciousness and other ones have different tendencies that's really cool stuff too now so people need to help fund you guys so you can do the fMRI scans of symmetry and dissonance that's the next that's the big stuff that's right yeah that's a what would describe it as kind of a very high-information experiment I mean we are currently collecting what you might describe as kind of like low information or medium information experiments which in a sense like they add up and of course if you have enough weak evidence that definitely builds a very strong case but in science usually how power times change is when somebody makes a really weird prediction and then they actually go ahead and test it and it turns out like yeah the prediction is correct yeah and that's that's one of the cases of for example putting people in fMRI with MDMA and then computing the consonants of the brain harmonics there's no other theory that is predicting that would have anything to do with pleasure and pain so that's kind of like the case of really weird really weird prediction very high information if it turns out true that said we are not completely constrained by that I mean the the research we're aggregating currently it is building up the case over time but of course we would love to just like you know jump to the cut to the chase and see what happens in there yes yeah I could uh maybe if you go to maybe the last slide yeah just to kind of give you like an example of what we consider a moderate evidence for the symmetry theory of aliens is moderate because is through EEG and of course like there's not a really great theory of what EEG is measuring but if you interpret it through the light of connecting harmonics these makes a lot of sense so what this is showing is okay so like they basically took EEG recordings high quality EEG recordings of a person on 5MEO DMT which is described as one of the most intense but also most blissful and terrifying states of consciousness but basically very very very high valence just like God molecule yeah basically people the rated as like 10 out of 10 in the dimension of significance as in it feels very significant so clearly if there's like a signature of valence you would expect to see it on 5MEO DMT and what this research shows is that if you take the EEG signatures of a person on 5MEO DMT and you filter by the gamma band and the gamma is usually associated with heightened states of consciousness like orgasm basically high-arousal high-energy states once you filter the EEG through the gamma band and you start seeing the the phase correlation between the different channels you will see that on 5MEO DMT it just maxes out basically all the channels are in phase coherence in some sense you can almost think of it as like there's this 40 Hertz vibration electromagnetic vibration throughout the entire brain in synchrony and like why would that be associated with a sense of profound sense of significance if synchrony and symmetry didn't have anything to do with valence you could probably round it up with some other theories potentially but and that's why this is not necessarily kind of the the silver bullet but we consider it like yeah a moderate piece of evidence and we assemble enough of these I think the case is gonna be pretty strong and yeah back on the funding angle it's this question of finding people who are very comfortable with weird ideas and potentially incredibly transformative ideas that have have a solid rationale but are sort of outside the overton window of what generally gets funded so yeah we're always on the lookout for sort of high quality donors this is complicated what you're describing is extremely complicated and yeah to be able to take a high quality EG recording and then to be able to just analyze the gamma and then to be able to take in an analysis of the hypersymmetry of osa 10 on this on impact or what was significant sense of significant sense of significance yeah yeah it's definitely true for a lot of the experiences Romeo you're trying to go the whole show without talking I know I mean they're all doing a good job so I don't see the needness of perfection okay and a couple other assets that I think we want to show can we show the one right after the simatics Ronnie the one like a couple assets back just a couple of the very first white one in that row in the row yep yep yeah so I just want to show these quick yeah I think this is important this is kind of like the catalog of the state space of consciousness you can be extremely yeah neutral these would be basically cataloging I mean how we were describing you know take the color state space right or take like the flavor state space these would be basically getting at the root of the emotional state space so this is when you be tasting something that's like really I don't know spicy I don't know like ah like what would be well yeah yeah sure like pain pain for example like when you do this like when people eat that hot sauce that like makes them cry yeah yeah sure sure sure or physical pain or emotional pain basically just like highly negative villains well actually yeah what this is suffering what this is describing is kind of like a way of visualizing the dissonance between harmonics okay so this is dissonance these are suffering right these are each different harmonics and if you want to explain the sure harmonics the size of the bubble it's kind of like the amplitude how much energy each of these harmonics has and then the arrows are basically whether they're like mutually consonant or dissonant with each other and I mean in music when you're analyzing the dissonance of like simple instruments being put together basically what you do is you compute the pairwise dissonance of all the pure tones in the spectrum and that gives you kind of the global dissonance score which basically yeah can account for like subjective ratings of dissonance here is kind of like taking the same idea but applying it to brain harmonics so you take like for every pair of brain harmonics you see whether they're like dissonant or consonant you aggregate all the all the dissonance and that it would be kind of a general measure of how bad the experience feels then you add up all the consonants and that's kind of a general measure of how good it feels anyhow like that's what the the our theory is predicting specifically it gives you so this is adding up all the all the pairwise dissonance relations this is the pairwise constants relations pairwise noise relations and it gives you a position in a valence space okay and one more time for one more time again give that give that bit again with the yeah yeah yeah so the the red is adding up all the pairwise dissonance relationships between these natural brain harmonics okay and you just aggregate them add them up and then the blue is the pairwise constants relation and then this is the pairwise noise relationship gray ones all right and it gives you if you sort of add them up it gives you a position on this state space space okay and yeah for just for clarity that triangle right so when people say like are you feeling good or bad oftentimes people say like I don't know and the reason why is because usually typical emotions people to keep it typical emotional states are mixed you have for example you're you're at a concert you're enjoying the music and your friends but then like the speakers are not really good and then like you also need to go pee and you're kind of drunk in like okay these very complicated mixed state so that would be kind of like in the middle right it has like some positive valence components some negative and some neutral and that's why to get an extent like self report is pretty difficult because it's so so mixed usually okay because there's all these these pair which compare pairwise pairwise relationships okay and they're all kind of pulling a little bit on the neutral or on the pleasure around the distance exactly yeah okay yeah I think a way to relate this to the state's basic color gangs I think that's one that's like pretty well understood by people there's one way to create colors is to create certain RGB values and so you sort of have like the red that's on the scale from 0 to 255 green scale from 0 to 255 blue scale from 0 to 255 and then you sort of mix different values of RG and B to get a certain color as an output I think the metaphor kind of works here too where you know you have these three values of constants dissonance and noise you're sort of mixing them to get a certain not color but certain emotional state and so I think that's kind of a way to okay metaphor for yeah that's a good one went down a lot yeah that's one that people I think are really familiar with yeah that people know about color yeah okay excellent and let's wrap on this point I want to bring this up so during the last talk that I went to that you guys were hosting I really enjoyed this that a lot of people are either kind of stuck in their own in their own bodies identifying with their own selves and nothing really outside of themselves some people try and understand their whole like timeline all the way back to their past and they're born all the way to their future where they're trying to go so they kind of get it on the whole timeline scale and then this and also excuse me and also where the world is at as well in those periods of years as well so from like if you're born in 2000 until 2080 so not that chunk of time versus this idea of like all that is or infinity or love or infinite consciousness there's so many ways to describe this god etc source and when one potentially taps into things like these super symmetrical states that they may experience that they may experience dives into all that is and so some people can trigger that just through breath and just by expanding themselves out as vast as the universe and I think that's a very beautiful way to get there and so this sounds it sounds it sounds great to be able to ebb and flow between all three of those and that's something that I think was really beautifully said by you you go ahead and yet explain that more to us I like that a lot yeah I mean we we do seem to kind of like come into this world with implicit views of who we are but they're like given by evolution they're not necessarily true they're just pragmatically useful I mean this sense of you start existing when you're born you stop existing when you die is usually a unexamined assumption of course people try to extend it and say well maybe you don't die really you continue to exist as a soul after you you die or maybe you there was a reincarnation most people still think of it as kind of just a single line and you're in a sense like separate from the rest of the universe there's like alternative views that can be justified there's this view called empty individualism where you're just like this moment of experience and in a moment in a second you're going to be a different entity or rather a different entity will inhabit your body because you were just that slice and then there's like this view called open individualism which is that we're all one consciousness that like we are all kind of this meta meta organism looking at itself from different points of view and I think like really that those are you can describe them also as like states of consciousness you can definitely in some states of very neutral experience you can just feel that you're just at times lies a very classical way you're feeling that we're all one consciousness is uh in psychedelics and meditation I mean 5MEO is a classic example of people it really creates the feeling that you're all consciousness and there's like this interplay between the information content of the experience and how cleanly defined you are so like 5MEO DMT for any of these like super symmetrical states it's so symmetrical so invariant it contains close to no information so there's just not enough information to know who you are so you identify with the light of consciousness or the void or universal mind I think like yeah that kind of a state and especially if you can like logically and precisely shift between those that's going to be really important for like global coordination where you're going to have like CEOs of companies or leaders of different countries identify with consciousness rather than with you know their cultural background or who they are or then yeah I think like they can collaborate to basically raise the baseline of everybody it's a possibility yeah damn that's that bad section right there is a whole another conversation in itself um all right so for uh those that uh um we're watching we would love for you to give us your thoughts in the comments below in the episode let us know what you're 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