 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook and episode 107 we're going to be talking about the nice therapist phenomena in the therapy process which you just said off air that he said he's a Bob Cook-ism. It is. Before I go there, when you said 107 it made me think of the term 101 which I know is called podcast again but that's the term for the beginning course that people do for two days in learning the fundamentals of TA. So it made me smile when he said 107. No, this podcast, I think of a lot of the titles and when I'm thinking about what I think would be interesting for people who listen to these podcasts to listen to and what actually goes on in the therapy room then one of the sort of concept cycle is therapists who are overly nice for many different reasons. In their overly niceness, that's a word, being over nice and miss the clients. So I'd like to talk about that and I suppose the first thing both of us could sort of like discuss is I'm quite happy to start off what we mean by nice. What makes a nice therapist because I often talk to many of my trainees and colleagues in these teams and people ask me all the time, well not all the time, what's your therapist like and then you might ask trainees and they're saying I don't know if I would ask that question but it's come out, oh my therapist is so nice. And that's an interesting one, isn't it? So when people say that I wonder because I'll make a statement here, therapy for me, I don't think should be about having a nice cosy chat. Me too, I was going to say I don't think we should be nice as therapists even though in my personal life I want to be nice only I'm a bit of a people pleaser, I'm definitely not in the therapy room. You see the third year trainees or second year trainees they start seeing clients for the first time. I think they often come from this place because they don't want to upset the client or they want to have smooth psychotherapy sequences or they want to you know have not having any conflict. As they start to develop and start seeing clients hopefully they'll come to the realization that having conflict or at least being a you know not shying away from conflict and challenging people constructively is where therapists need to go. Yeah those those are words that I've just written down here Bob, I write words down as you're speaking and I put challenge it. For me there's I think there's something that we need to discuss around being challenging and not being nice but also about being aware of shame and non-judgmental and how there's a fine line again that can be challenging without causing shame or judging. Yeah and we haven't yeah absolutely we haven't really come down to what definition of what niceness is I suppose I went off but I think often the people think of a nice therapist as somebody who maybe won't go towards areas of difficulties. Yeah one challenge. Stay in the safe space. Yeah yeah and that's really the opposite of where a therapist needs to go. Yeah so a little bit more about that last bit you know it's now we've said that about shame you were talking about and challenge and ultimately it's kind of like the opposite of being nice you know what I mean if we're not being nice then are we being challenging and if we're being challenging can that be seen as being judgmental and you know I think I'm really always conscious of shame in the therapy room and not wanting the client to feel shame so if I'm being challenging or not agreeing with them all the time is that going to be something that I need to be aware of in the in the process. What's your conclusion of these many years of clinical work then Jackie? One I openly say you know I hope you don't feel like you're being judged when I'm saying this but I disagree with what you're saying or you know I want to put it to you another way but I will make a point of saying this is not me judging you in any way shape or form and I would literally say that to them. Oh you actually are that explicit. Yeah absolutely yeah with certain clients that I know potentially they will look at everything on the negative spectrum. Yeah and do they judge or reward your clients that you're thinking about in inverted commas judge the nice client the nice therapist who doesn't go towards conflict and stays in the sort of psychological safe place and would they judge that something they want? I think the majority of them would be quite happy to do that and to just command off-load and not necessarily take action and do anything different and I think that's those are the ones that I'm thinking of. And do you then think that a nice therapist has high success rates? No. No that's that's the bit is this. Absolutely not. They often I think the nice in inverted comms therapist that won't go towards perhaps challenge or they shy away from conflict or they intellectualize things or they are perhaps over rescuing with clients. I understand all the reasons for that by the way and I don't think it's necessarily in fact I suppose I'll be a bit stronger. I don't think it helps healing. No. It often preserves the status quo. Yeah and I believe clients don't come to therapy I believe clients come to therapy actually to move away from their status quo or or spoke and get a new script on the road. Yeah I'm not saying that I'm going hard with clients from the first session. I might be a nice therapist in the first couple of sessions and staying that safe zone. Yeah if they're just staying a safe zone not much really happens. No. No it's the same as staying in our comfort zone we're just repeating the same things over and over and we know we know how it works. Yeah it's a bit like I'll pass on a bit unfair nothing much happens but because you know for some clients having a safe environment to play out their similar scripts might actually be some sort of change. However I think not much really does happen except for the continuation of a script that came in with. Yeah. I think that's one concept and another concept about nice therapists in inverted commas is that clients may sort of not only go not go to where they need to go but also and I'm going to use a psychoanalytical term here they may manipulate therapist so they don't go to where they need to go to. Yeah I think I was probably manipulated in the early days absolutely yeah. And often the people who are nice therapists and inverted commas may and don't go towards challenge and don't go towards conflict and don't you know afraid of say expression of emotions in the psychotherapy room. They may really have scripts you know well they will have scripts that determine that type of therapy usually though they won't be successful at therapy as we'll sort of realise that and much more important they won't actually achieve much healing from that position I don't think. Yeah yeah I want to say they'll get bored if we're just staying in that safe space all the time. Yeah I would imagine I don't I don't I don't think they keep paying the money keep coming back personally. Now I think I'm going to qualify niceness a bit more. I think therapists or inverted therapists are usually are therapists who stay in their own particular safe mode. So for example if intellectualisation is a mode that the therapist feels secure and safe into then they may take clients into intellectualisation therapy if it's such a word in other words yeah you know more cognitive behavioural therapy I think where yeah I'm looking at the past and the etiology of the trauma is not in that frame. CBT is much more that you deal with the thinking distortions in the present and in our in our language contaminations and and you keep away from emotions and you keep away from the past now can good can you have that be that is is successful from that position where you're not going towards the past and you're not going towards emotional change I think you can do and if that's what I if that's what we're talking about in a way in the world of nice therapists in terms of where they stay with their own secure frame of reference and they keep their clients in that secure frame of reference it doesn't mean you know things won't happen but it'll be at a different level than the type of psychotherapy that I think of. I agree I think change will happen but it's at a different level yeah absolutely that's that's probably a better way to look at it it's at a different a different level and a different dimension yeah yeah because you know I'm an ex foster carer and you know some of the the kids that we looked after they they would be you know able to go to CAMS or or have you know some sort of psychological support and a lot of them didn't want it because they didn't want to talk about the past they weren't ready and they didn't want to do it so they would go you know but keep it on a very safe level for them and I'm not saying that they didn't find it helpful and change didn't occur but yeah they chose not not to open those boxes they didn't want to and I suppose some adults do that they don't want to go back well yes absolutely they do I mean you know CBT there does not don't go back into people's history environmentally and they actually believe they probably would quote some research to me that by staying in the hearing now and looking at cognitive distortions and integrating new behavioural change is the evidence not necessary to go towards emotional conflict or developmental healing in the past yeah yeah but again there are those people that that's where they they want to go that's what you're just saying yeah and then in a way being inverted commas nice therapist here it's um and they stay in their own comfort zones um for some people some some some people like you say um will be part of keeping the therapy at that that level if you like they won't want to go to different levels I also think nice is a strange word because it's usually in the world of it's usually connected with the world of adaptation yeah you know so I don't necessarily want to podcast us to hear this is a derogatory word because I think it's often that therapists especially if they haven't done their own work will adapt maybe to what the clients want or don't want or what's happens going on in their own heads um by being you know uh shying away from conflict they were adapt in a certain way which somebody might say looking on but that's a safe yeah uh place to be yeah and like you said the listeners you know who are listening to this we we don't want them to have the impression that we want them to be not nice all the time it's not about saying right well I can't be nice in the therapy room I've got to be challenging all the time and I've got to be poking it with a stick to get something from it it's not about that it's about reading the situation but looking at like you say potentially what does nice mean does nice mean staying in a safe space and you know not challenging and maybe being manipulated and is that our own insecurities or lack of experience and just being aware of what's happening in the room when it's happening yeah absolutely right right I had clients leave my therapy room and I know the excuse my French but they're pissed off with me because I've challenged them in a session yeah and I've even got so as I've thought that they might not come back next week well that's that's that's that's the fear maybe but it's a risk I think in the duty of care to the client that we take in transaction analysis they have if you ever study in transaction analysis but you're going to perhaps hear these words and I know we've done podcasts on this so and I know they're some of the most watched podcasts by the way all that we've done because I've been looking recently at the sort of most popular podcasts over time and these five I'm going to say now are certainly have high tick foods but in T8 they have you know be strong yeah you know these others I think yeah being perfect yeah being strong trying hard as all adaptation styles if you like yeah we could be nice to that list yeah yeah because that's the way those driving mechanisms it's a way of explaining how we've how children have adapted and survived in their childhood of origin to get by and maybe to get by some kids have to be nice and not rock the boats yeah that's how they survived and that's how they carry through that script today and probably might have a lot of energy in the be perfect or try hard or maybe a new driver to a theory being nice yeah I don't want to hear I don't want podcasters to hear the amusing being nice necessary derogatory term because I think that like many of us grow up and have to please to survive and maybe people grow up to having to be nice and keep things safe as a way of getting on in the world yeah and if therapists haven't done their own therapy on this on the early decisions they've made I think they could enact that out or that position out in the therapy world just to say yeah yeah and I don't like conflict you know to me and I don't like yeah I don't like conflict in you know my own personal life but I don't see it as being conflict when it's in the therapy room you know being challenging in the therapy room to me as long as it's for the good of the client and it's got a therapeutic basic to it then I see that as me doing my job not just being argumentative or I don't know yeah picking at faults or things like that yeah you're absolutely correct and you also made a very very good point as well about the sequences of psychotherapy and I think the first sequence have a long we want to put this out well there'll be one session 10 sessions and that is the consultation on building up a working relationship with the clients getting a trusting work means the therapists might need to have a lot of emphasis on safety security and niceness but later on yeah and they've got a relationship which you know is robust and trustworthy and they may be more challenging yeah yeah and being able to read to a certain extent what the client needs at the time oh yes you know if something's happened during the week that you haven't seen the clients and you know you want to be empathic that can be seen as being nice and maybe you know take it easy in that session you know because of something that's happened it's not always about having to be challenging in order to get a result it's about reading the situation absolutely and I don't want podcasters to also listen to this get confused between nice and nurture yeah because that's a good point that yeah I think that we can be firm with our boundaries and challenging from a nurturing position yeah yeah and that's that's modeling to the clients as well that that can happen that you know it's conflict and challenging isn't always necessarily a bad thing no and I don't need I did I don't need my clients to you know how can I explain this to be friends with me or to um that's not what it's about my job is what you have just said actually which is to um help clients put a new script on the road and that usually means some aspect of risk taken by me if you like in terms of challenge and courage and helping them integrate that yeah which to me you know I know you touched on it earlier on about you know that and we talk about it a lot the therapeutic relationship that you know if the client can come back and discuss it do you know what I mean if they have took offence if they they do feel like they're being judged or you know that we were harsh on them or they didn't like being challenged that then that then comes back in the therapy room and you know we discuss that rather than you know the worst thing for me is that if I do something and it's been misunderstood or misinterpreted and then there's like a yeah there's there's a grunge being held or there's something between us the next time we see each other yeah that's right which is why I probably wouldn't challenge a client in the early days I would I would build make sure that we've got some sort of footing between us that they feel comfortable enough and I will openly say to my clients if you don't agree with what I'm saying then it's okay for you to say Jackie you're way off the mark with this I think is a very good point between experience clinically and the beginning of our professional careers where we don't often well I experience trainees not often wanting to you know scare their clients or like you just said so they don't come back yeah but it'd be oh and often they do this by being over nurturing yeah doing away from any type of conflict um steering away from any type of emotional expression yeah I can remember being really scared of a client having a reaction to something that we were doing in the therapy room and me not knowing how to deal with it you know how to ground the clients and how to get them back in the here and now so that when they left they were in an okay place and back in adults I could remember being quite scared of that and if I had a histrionic client that was very tearful and very over the top with their emotions yeah being being scared so that's a very good point around experience yeah I think when you talk about in these 107 podcasts as it be said I know I think a lot of our conversation um hopefully we talked about the difference between the different levels of experience clinically when we may have differently yeah experience and this job um isn't it you know it's important to recognise I think yeah and that's why supervision is so important particularly in the early days as well that you can take it to somewhere and say you know this happened in a session and for you to get reassurance that you're doing the right thing and you know what you don't need the supervisor to be nice either in this parallel process world you know it's like I would want to supervise that is you know we have a good relationship but also challenge and say well you know what do this transaction mean or or have you possibly to adapt it there or whatever it is yeah so the important things we're talking about really I don't think you'll find anything in books called the nice phenomena but we could put a sort of plea for a new driver in TA we called nice yes yes to be nice and you know generally in society it's okay to be nice oh yeah yeah it's not something I'm going to particularly slam down the point of saying this is that I would like to give a plea as well as you know the nice phenomena is that we can you know build up a relationship you know have a secure base and perhaps sometimes help people move into areas which they fear so much yeah where the actual healing could be yeah yeah another good podcast bob yeah thank you thank you I enjoyed talking about that and I hope I hope people have been listening to this gives them reflections of thoughts anyway yeah and to leave them with the question is your therapist a nice therapist or not or not yeah so what we'll be talking about next time bob which really looking forward to this one is that the most common injunctions which again is a TA term isn't it that we use a lot what say say what did I miss out the title what did you say there but the title is very long and I think it needs a bit of modification but the major and most common injunctions that clients present with in therapy and how to deal with them so we need to talk about what an injunction is yeah yeah that's a math it is it is injunctions really is a stop message but we'll find a sort of you know a condensed title of that title because we couldn't even get it on to the introduction bit when you download it it'll just miss out so yeah how we deal with injunctions and how I don't we'll think about talking about it but yeah that's what the next one's about all about injunctions so if you want to see what the working title turns into you'll have to do next week yeah yeah until then bob thank you so much thank you very much take care bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode