 This is such an important topic. And Cheryl Jay, I'm just going to abbreviate your last name there. Cheryl Jay, I want to go to you first because you lost your son to suicide. Can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. Alex passed away on August 12, 2017. He started showing signs of depression and anxiety in high school, and we got him help. And he did great. Graduated from high school, went off to college. But in his junior year of college, his symptoms came back with a vengeance. And he wasn't in an environment where anybody was addressing it. His friends thought they were adults, and they were supposed to handle things on their own, a little bit of a miss direction that we often get with our kids. And by the time he called us to say he was in trouble, he was in pretty bad shape. And we brought him home, but we were constantly chasing the disease. We had a hard time, even though we had insurance and resources, we had a hard time accessing care, big delays. And he went and bought street drugs to self-medicate and died from a fentanyl overdose. Yeah. I have a dear friend of mine who, her brother was dealing with some mental health issues. And it was really hard for them to get him care. I mean, they tried as much as they possibly could. And there would be long wait times. And finally, when they got in, it felt like every time, if they weren't going to the exact same doctor, every time they had to kind of start over. Yeah. Yeah, that continuity of care. I mean, at Hearts for Minds as an organization, we operate on the principle that no one should lose a loved one simply because they don't have information or access. And so that's what we focus on in the community. You're in a crisis. Your whole family shouldn't also be in a crisis because you don't have care. And we would never do that with any other diseases. Yeah, Elizabeth, as a psychiatric nurse practitioner, when you see families going through, when someone comes with a mental health crisis, how do you think it's best for families to support that person? Well, I think we have to be mindful that we're all human and we all have emotions. And so if we can normalize being human and talking about how we feel and what we think, it might feel less like a crisis when someone is having intense emotions. And I appreciate so much that Cheryl speaks to this as an illness because we do need to normalize that depression is a medical illness with a neurobiological wiring that we can treat. And what's really cool is the treatment that shows the most effective outcomes is therapy. And so imagine if as humans, we felt connected to ourselves and others just through talking, that might normalize even going to therapy. And of course there are medications and other forms of treatment. But when working with children and families, what my approach is and what the evidence shows is if we can restore connection of someone to themselves and their attachment figures, their parents or primary caregivers, we can reduce the risk of them taking their own life. And so that's what I'm very passionate about. That's why I teach because I want all healthcare providers to feel equipped to ask the hard questions and to sit for the answers. You don't need to know what to do right away, but if you can be a compassionate listener and connect someone with resources, you can walk them towards others who might have those more robust treatment skills. Yeah, when I think about mental health and suicide prevention, one of the things that comes to mind for me is just the stigma around it all. We don't like to talk about it. We don't like to say, hey, I'm struggling. And I think, and I also think that when we see like a celebrity or somebody in public having a mental health crisis, a lot of times the conversation, like if you go to the blogs or Twitter or Instagram, kind of mocks, it makes fun of. I remember when Britney Spears was going through her mental health crisis and she shaved all her hair off and like the memes, the jokes and all of that, like it was just funny for people. And I think that just adds to the stigma. And just in trying to dispel and fight that stigma, I just wanna say that like I struggle from depression. I've been good for a bit, but like there have been times when I've been in a really dark place. And the only thing that got me out of it was, well, at one point I went on medication to kind of help me through it. And also like I have a great therapist who I talk to all the time. Well, not all the time, but a lot. And then, so yeah, I think that like that stigma is a big part of what holds people back from getting help and also what holds families back from being able to wrap their heads around how to tackle these things. When I do think it's scary as a family to say, please take care of my child or to allow a medical provider into such a vulnerable place. And it's normalized when we think about asthma. If somebody's having an asthma attack as a parent, you're gonna hand them there in healer. Mental health and mental illness should be the same where we should want to incorporate those who are trained to support our families. And Cheryl, oh, I'm sorry, please. I was just gonna say that, you know, I think there's oftentimes shame associated with living with mental illness. And so it's really important that we create gracious spaces for people to come and to share what their struggles are. And so with Voices Institute and Collaboration with the Partnership for Child Health, we've been creating these spaces for young people because a lot of times we think about adults, but it's also children, it's teens, it's across the life continuum. And so we've recently conducted listening sessions with youth across the city, over 75 youth, and they told us what their stressors were. Academic stressors, family problems, balancing work, life, and school, racial identity, gender identity. These are some of the things that our young people are struggling with and they don't always know where to go. And so our goal is to inform and to make sure that they know that they can call the 988 number, that they can connect to mental health resources here so that they can be whole and well. Yeah, I just, as you say that, I'm having a flashback to being in middle school. It's rough, right? The worst. And I remember things that were actually pretty small. Now I can look at them and say that they were pretty small, but they were tremendously big as a middle schooler. To the point where I thought that the world was gonna end because I had done something that I shouldn't have done. And I didn't know who to talk to and it just felt completely overwhelming. I did not have suicide ideation at all. I'm just saying that my problems felt so big because I was so small in trying to understand this crazy world. Cheryl, you're on the phone. Can you talk to me a little bit about your experience and your son? Absolutely. We lost DJ to suicide June 14th of 2018. DJ was an excellent student, superb athlete, 4.0 GPA, was getting ready to go to a private boarding school and we had no idea at that time that he suffered from severe anxiety. DJ was a perfectionist, always willing to help someone absolutely kind, gentle soul. And just going back to what you just said, what we try to do at DJ's Marvelous Light Foundation is break the stigma, especially in the African-American community, by getting people to talk about it, to know that it's okay to not be okay. You don't have to be ashamed. And to go back to what you just said about middle schoolers, even children who are an elementary school, when you are surrounded by individuals all the time and you make one mistake in the age of social media now, I'm gonna say back in my day, you make a mistake, I think a few people might have known about it, but now with the age of social media, someone could be videoing it, taking a picture of it in one click, millions of people could see it all of a sudden. So what we try to do is we tell DJ's story about trusting the process, get out, talk to someone. When students or when children come to their parents or come to a teacher or come to a guidance counselor, create that safe space for them and also let them know it's okay to not be okay. You don't have to be ashamed of it. If you encounter an individual or a student who has suicidal ideations or someone who's contemplating, it's okay. We have to be able to get them the resources and the coping mechanisms that they need to make it through, the therapy that they need to make it through, the resources to them to make it. I think that's great. Just to tie it back to something you said is, I think we have to crowd out that stigma that happens with the memes on the social media that people are just inundated with. Crowd it out with the unapologetic conversations because the stigma is also a self-stigmatization. The people going through it are self-deprecating. They're stigmatizing themselves because they're looking from their perspective out. People are making fun of people with issues. So I think it's really important what Cheryl's doing with DJ's memory to change that. You can join the conversation at 5492937. You can tweet us at FCC on air. First Coast Connect at wjct.org. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and on YouTube. You know, all the places just reach out. Lindsay, you work with wounded warriors and suicide is just a horrible thing in general. But when it comes to our veterans, it's, I looked at some of the numbers recently and it's shocking to me. And it feels like it is a national failure that like, you know, I mean, obviously suicide prevention for everybody, everybody, but it feels like with our wounded warriors, people that have put their lives on the line for us overseas, that they just get forgotten and it's, I don't know, can you speak to that? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, when we think of suicide prevention, we know that any given time in the United States, something like one in 20 people are thinking about suicide. Our most recent annual warrior survey showed more than one in four of our warriors in the past year were thinking about suicide and to kind of paint the picture even further of those who said yes, 72% of the thoughts had been as recent as the last two weeks. So I think, you know, when we think of our veteran communities, there are some risk factors that make them a bit more vulnerable. When we think of high exposure to trauma, that transition period out of the military, losing their sense of purpose, connection to their community, all of those things exacerbate, you know, challenges related to mental health. You know, I think at Wounded Warrior Project, we're really working so that all of our programs and services address known risk factors, mental health being our largest programmatic investment, but also things related to financial services, right? Ensuring that they have the benefits that they deserve, ensuring they have access to employment if that's something that they're interested in able to do, getting connected to a new community and being active again, so really addressing multiple issues related to suicide. We're going to go to the phones. We've got Lonelle and Mandarin. Lonelle, are you there this morning? Yes, I am. Good morning. Thanks for taking my call. First off, just real quick, as a retired Navy veteran, I do want to say thanks for the information that you're putting out for our veterans. So, but I called, I had one of my siblings recently committed suicide. She was a long-term care provider for an elder family member and really was just at her wit's end out in the very rural area of Florida, where there's not a lot of options for home health aid or for anything else. And after a while, it's like family and church stop coming around. So she was really just overwhelmed, but also the lack of resources in some of our rural populations. So I hope that we can help normalize virtual, and telehealth type of mental health resources available for folks, especially those who can't get out and maybe those who don't have mental health care facilities in and around where they live. Lonelle, thank you so much for calling in Cheryl. Sure, Lonelle. We agree at Hearts for Minds that that's access to resources is a huge issue and it becomes more complicated in the rural areas. We are working on some initiatives with some community alliance programs to expand access to resources in our more rural areas. We're expanding in Nassau, Clay, Putnam and some of the additional counties. So it's a really good point and we appreciate that and we're working on developing that partner list so that people in those areas have equal access to resources. Yeah, and I'll also just jump in for veterans in particular. Windy Warrior Project has a vast number of community partners that we work with, many of whom are able to offer telehealth and we work to ensure that there is that kind of military cultural competency available. So if anybody is interested, they can reach out to Windy Warrior Project at 888-997-2586 to get connected to some of those supports and resources. And I would just speak to the pediatric population. So if you're not aware, Wolfson Children's Hospital does also have a local 24-7 crisis line that you can call and they do offer telehealth services for many of the mental health offerings and then also you have health. We have a pediatric psychiatric team there. So depending on access and availability, there are local larger systems that are trying to address those needs and offer video platform. What you mentioned about culturally responsive care is so important because we know that historically the white population has died by suicide but we've been seeing an increase, a major increase in suicide in the black community. And so it's important that clinicians understand the impacts of racial stress and trauma. We just had the dollar general incident that happened in our community. And so having clinicians that understand how that affects your view of yourself, your sense of self-efficacy, what that means in terms of your value, your worth as a citizen in this United States of America, is important because those issues are connected to our health and well-being. It's a really good point. Cheryl Dees, did you have any thoughts about that? Yeah, I just wanted to expand on what Dr. Basch just said. Suicide amongst the black youth in the United States is growing at an alarming rate. We do know that from 2018 to 2021, the African-American community had the largest increase in suicides with children as well as young adults from the age of 10 to 24. So again, just breaking the stigma, getting resources out there, letting people know it's okay to talk about it. There should not be a sense of shame or a sense of feeling discouraged about someone having a mental illness. We always said everyone has mental health. Everyone might not have a mental illness, but everyone has mental health that they need to care for. We got a comment from Junior on Twitter. He said, depression and suicide definitely need attention in society. As an African-American member of the LGBTQ plus community who grew up with obesity, depression and contemplating suicide were part of my life for a long time. Junior, I just want to say to you that you're valued and you're loved and we need your voice. And I understand a little bit about depression, how like depression lies to you and tells you all these things that are not true. And it's easy to, especially when you're isolated and you don't have anybody else that's helping fight those voices off, but you have to like hold on to the thing that like, this too shall pass. And if you keep pushing through and keep reminding yourself how amazing you are, you get through it. I don't want to like make it all polyanna and say like your struggles aren't real. Your struggles are absolutely real. It's just that the voices and the feelings that depression can give you are not. Yes, and I am so grateful for you sharing that comment and I'm also grateful that you're still here because I think what the data shows and what we need to remember is most individuals who do attempt to take their life and survive are very grateful that they wake up and they are able to repurpose some of that lying from depression and use it in a way to not only heal for themselves, but also to benefit others. And we have to be mindful that we are all so desperately human. We have brains and our brains have this phenomenal way of feeling, but sometimes our limbic system can get a little too loud. And we need those rational thoughts and we need these conversations to pull us out of the limbic system and back into those bigger thinking parts of our brain. You can join the conversation at 5492937. You can tweet us at FCC on air. You can email us at firstcoastconnect.wjct.org. You know where to find us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, all the places, just hit us up. One thing I think about a lot is the loss when someone does suicide, when someone kills himself. I have a dear friend of mine who passed away many years ago and he killed himself. And just the black hole it leaves in your heart, the way it just sucks everything. It's so hard to move past. And I'm constantly thinking about his parents, where I was his friend, I was his good friend, but the idea of going through that as a parent. So there are a lot of statistics, I'll talk statistics that I can talk the parent side. Cheryl Dees and I can probably have hours worth of conversation about what it does as a parent, but statistically when someone dies by suicide, the direct impact that puts other people at risk is about 12 people directly will now be at risk for having suicidal ideation because of the helplessness you feel. And you can work those statistics through. So for every person who has died by suicide when we talked about those statistics earlier, there are about 150 people who are impacted by that suicide and then become at different levels of risk. So it is a community and society issue. It isn't just that a single person should speak up and talk about what they're feeling, which they should do, we should get in front of it, but the impact on our community, if anyone thinks it doesn't affect us all, is mistaken. As a mom, it was the most devastating thing I think I will ever go through. Alex was my oldest child. He was sweet and kind and delightful. That's why at Hearts for Mines, we use this dragonfly as our symbol because we have a picture of him where one landed on his face. It was the way to remember him. It was about changing the face of mental illness, just like DJ, no one would have known. We had a diagnosis early, but if he was walking on the street, it's not as if he had a sign on him that said, I'm mentally ill. So yeah, we have to start to crowd that out by, for me as a mom, kind of crowding out that little black hole is about working in the community and helping other people. I don't know that it'll ever go away, but we try and give it a little less space. Yeah, and if I can for just a second, I think this is where training becomes really important and I think a couple of you have hit on this important point. We really have to take more of a public health approach because we know access to care is a challenge and most of these conversations aren't starting with mental health professionals. They're starting with our friends and our youth workers and people that we're seeing every day. And we at Wounded Warrior Project have really tried to use the training that we have available through an organization called Living Works to provide training to not only our staff, but to our warriors, to our community providers, to local law enforcement so that people know how to ask the question and sit with them to provide that space. We don't have to fix things. We don't have to solution. Time and distance is the life-saving combination and if we can teach people to have that conversation, it really does save lives. We're gonna go to the phones. We've got Kathy at Orange Park. Kathy, good morning. How are you today? I'm great. How are you? Good. What you got for me? Well, okay. And just the cost of getting mental health and putting them in some of these facilities that we have, which I'm not saying anything bad about some of the facilities because I know that they're overrun, but I wanna know why we just don't have certain mental health on every corner of every street because people are dying, you know? And it's not just because of suicide. It's because they're just not getting the mental help that they need. I know it's an overpowering phenomena, but we just really need to start trying to concentrate on getting the funds to start putting mental health on every corner. Kathy, thanks so much for your question. I'm gonna give it to the panel. I love that sentiment. Wouldn't it be beautiful if we did have mental health advocacy and people available that we felt comfortable speaking with on every corner? What a beautiful concept. And for your family, living with someone with addiction, I have a lot of compassion and I would like to let you know that we do have a local nonprofit called Here Tomorrow. So that is an organization that you can reach out to, anyone could reach out to. If you are looking for a peer to connect with or other trained individuals that could also connect you with local providers and you're right, the healthcare system is broken and we have to talk about that. We have to talk about that reimbursement is not equitable for mental healthcare. We have to talk about the delays. We have to talk about the lack of education in our communities and when I say communities, I mean all communities and around this table, we all represent different communities and so we've gotta do better locally and nationally. And that community sentiment is super important. I mean, the education piece, it is educating the community. We offer what's called QPR training, it's suicide prevention training and we talk to groups about you're your own little micro community. So if we can, it's the concept of, am I my brother's keeper, right? If we can educate the community on suicide prevention and how to recognize it and have a conversation, we'll start to chip away at it while we're trying to fix the mental healthcare ecosystem. Yeah, and again, from the veteran's base, all of the programs and services that we offer at We Need Warrior Project are available at new cost for our post-911 veterans who are eligible to be alumni and even for some of our other era veterans through our Warrior Care Network program. But I would also just remind any of the veterans who might be listening of the newly passed compact act, right? If you are experiencing a suicide crisis, any facility who offers care inpatient can provide that treatment to you at no cost. There are some limitations in terms of if you've been dishonorably discharged, but by and large, that care is available at no cost. And if you need a ride to the facility, right? All 911, that emergency EMS arrival ambulance ride will not cost you anything either. And yeah, so we've just produced a video, a teen suicide prevention video called Give Healing a Chance and it was in partnership with Cheryl Dees and her foundation. And you can go to the partnership for Child Health website to see that video as well as to access local and national community resources. I just wanna highlight that one of the things that young people said in terms of what they need in order to feel supported is visibility and validation. Visibility and validation that they need to be seen and they need to be heard. One of the you've said to us that, it's an opportunity for parents to learn something new every day about their child. So that engagement, that connection is so important in terms of helping our children to be whole and well. So. And I love that that came from children, it's beautiful. We're gonna take a break. I have a caller on the line, Yvonne. Yvonne, hold on, we're gonna get to you, we just need to take a break. So we're gonna take a break now and we're gonna come right back with my caller Yvonne. Good morning, you are listening to First Coast Connect, I'm Al-Letsin. I've got an amazing panel with me today. We are talking about suicide prevention. You can join the conversation, call us at 5492937. You can tweet us at FCC on air. You can email us at First Coast Connect to wjct.org. You can find us on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, all the places you know where to hit us up. We want to hear from you. On the line, I've got Yvonne from the South Side. Yvonne, how are you doing this morning? Great this morning, thank you for having me on. Yes, please. I just wanted to say that people in the medical profession are not immune to stigmatizing patients who mentioned mental health. They will ask you about mental health, but it's been my experience that once you speak to having depression and or anxiety, your, well, the way that your view can change at the practice that you're going to see, how you're viewed by other medical people there and whether your physical concerns are taken seriously or not, in particular saying that you have anxiety, you can kind of get categorized. And I think people need to be more aware in the healing professions. You're absolutely right. And I'm sorry that that happened to you. We're working with Baptist to change how they manage mental health care. And there being a huge innovative driver in the community, we installed what we call a Dragonfly Care Coordinator that helps to instill more compassion for that journey. And it is a long journey. It's a little bit of a war of attrition versus a quick fix. But the community is trying to work on that and we are sorry that you had had that experience. Yvonne, thanks so much for calling. We're gonna keep the conversation going. Yvonne, you are absolutely correct. And as a mental health provider, I never wanted to go into mental health when I first went into healthcare. I wanted to work in the ER. My first job was actually at the VA in Gainesville and working with veterans opened my eyes to the human experience. And that sometimes providers would just walk away from the bedside and then I would be a nurse standing in the room and I didn't know what to do or say. And I would ask questions. Well, who talks to someone about this or how do I support this person? And I found out that maybe I could become someone that could support people. And I would just like to propose that if we took the stance as humans that we're all doing the best that we can with the resources that we have, if we could approach each other with compassion, including healthcare professionals, please, if you're listening, be mindful that not all healthcare professionals received mental health education like we're talking about now. But I do know there are initiatives within many of our local systems that are trying to address that. And we're all doing the best that we can with the resources that we have. As a reminder, we've got Cheryl Johnson, founder and president of Hearts for Minds, Selena Webb Bass, an author and CEO, founder of the Voices Institute, Elizabeth Winings, family mental health, psychiatric nurse practitioner, founder of Winings Wellness and assistant professor of nursing at Jacksonville University. Lindsay Gray, Warrior Care Network, senior specialist for Wounded Warrior Project and Cheryl Dee's executive director and founder of the Darnell Dee's Junior Marvelous Life Foundation. They're with us today. We are taking your calls. You can call us at 549-2937. You can tweet us at FCC on air. First goes connect to wjct.org and Facebook. As we are talking about like different communities, wounded warriors, the African-American community, I think one community that we haven't talked enough about is the LGBTQIA community. And I know that we did a segment a couple of months ago, I believe, that kind of talked a little bit about suicide prevention in the LGBTQIA community. And I can't tell you how many emails and comments I got from that community telling me that it's a problem and we should talk more about it. How do we reach out better to that community? And a lot of the comments that I got were from adult members of the LGBTQIA plus community who are advocating for the younger members of the community who feel where we are politically, that they are being targeted and excluded. And that leads to a lot of these feelings that we're talking about. So I think we have to, I mean, it's education and understanding and compassion. I mean, we all were in middle school. I think we all probably can agree. It's a rough time. I think you compound that when someone feels different or is struggling to understand their own identity. They're often ostracized at school or kicked out of their home. And so we're adding a lot of trauma now at the current political environment that are using that community in a way that is causing more. So it's a lot about empathy and compassion and education in the community. Educating our community and bringing us together is a key piece of this puzzle. And until we do it, we're always going to be managing things at a crisis. And we do have an amazing local organization called Jasmine. So if you are a parent of a child that is in this community or if you are an individual in this community, that is an organization that we have locally and that is spelled J-A-S-M-Y-N. You can go to their website, jasmine.org for additional resources. There's also jacksusequality.org that has lists of resources for other groups. And so if you are in the LGBTQIA group or community or if you are connected with someone and you are not sure how to best support them, you can reach out. And the last resource I'd love to share is at Carothers. We do have Dr. Sanchez, who is a local expert on this area. So if you're a medical provider or a family who's looking for a resource, he's a great one that we have locally. I'll just go ahead. So during our listening sessions, this issue came up, we think about intersectionality, right? And so not only is race and being a part of a historically marginalized community, being black, being brown, but also sexual identity, sexual identity in terms of gender orientation and expression, also came up as well. And think about a young person who may be of color, a person who may be identified with LGBTQ community and also poor. So when you have all of these layers, it can really weigh and the heaviness is there for young people. And so again, it's important that we connect them to resources and connect them to people who offer unconditional love. And I was just gonna share one other resource available. It's called the Trevor Project, which is a national resource. So you can call the 24-7 hotline, regardless of where you're at in the community. And they are geared very specifically toward LGBTQIA youth in particular. And we do have a local crisis text line if someone needs a text connection, if it's not a crisis, if it's a crisis, you ought to call 988, but it's text life to 741-741 and there are trained providers there to help. And they respond. I think that's the most important thing to know is that there are real people on the other line and these resources work. We know that they reduce the risks of crisis. And we're gonna go to the phone. We've got Anna in Jacksonville. Anna, how are you? Caller, are you there? Hello, hello. Okay, wait. Is someone there? All right. And we're gonna keep, oh, let's see. Hold on, my phones are being a little bit funky today. Let's try this one. Anna, are you there? I am. Hi, how are you this morning? I am great. Thank you. How about yourself? Good, good, good. What you got for me? There is a certification that, trying to, like my 92nd elevator pitch, there was a grant that we had in Jacksonville. I'm a nurse. It was supported and processed through, I think St. V's, Mayo and Baptist all got together. I'm not sure if it's still active, but it was free to the community. It's nationally recognized. It was supported by Michelle Obama. She's got a video on it. Lady Gaga's got a video on it. Comedy Central trying to normalize the training aspect that people don't hesitate. They know if somebody says they have a crushing chest pain or they can't feel half their face or a massive headache, they recognize those symptoms and they know what to do. And mental health first aid is a certified, basically I tell people liking it to CPR for mental health crisis. Nobody expects you to come out of it to be a therapist or prescriber or diagnose. You're just doing the chest compressions or rescue breaths until the professionals get there, but that you know how to notice, how to intervene and how to get support that is necessary or not, but that there's so much stigma about, oh, somebody's either acting or I'm worried that I'm gonna make it worse or I don't know what to say or I'm uncomfortable and it's a fabulous, again, it's nationally, it's actually international. It started in Australia. Certification programs since COVID, they've created a new blended version that you can do virtual, half of it online. And then you get to practice the skills of intervening with somebody, assessing them appropriately and providing that support. But to let folks know if they really wanna feel like you're normalizing, the same way life saving for a physical health issue, people are so commonly familiar with the crisis symptoms of a physical health issue and would intervene and do chest compressions. They wouldn't just walk past and tell somebody, hey, make an appointment with your primary. Yes, yes, Anna, thank you so much for your comment and your call. There's mental health first aid training and there's also QPR training. It's called question persuade refer, which is specifically suicide prevention. We offer free QPR training if people wanna go to our website at heartsnumberforminds.org, you can sign up. But you can also search for mental health first aid training online. Some of them are free and you can sign up when you're there. And there's an adult and youth version of mental health first aid. So for both populations. And we're gonna go to the phones again. We've got Les on the west side. Les, how are you doing this morning? Good morning, thank you for taking my call. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I spent 22 years on the psych floor at a major hospital here. I just recently retired, but I just wanted to offer my apologies for some of the callers that have called in expressing that the providers were very apathetic. And I would offer to them that a lot of the problems resulting in apathy by the providers is due to the, just they can't do anything due to the laws. There are a tremendous amount of laws that exist. And just listening to your show, there's a tremendous amount of education that is just not provided to people unless you're in that circle, like the Marshman Act. Many people are familiar with it, but some are not. And it's the only mechanism to court order people into some type of treatment. Les, thank you. Marshman. Yes, Les, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate the comments. We got to wrap up today, but I just wanted to thank my panel for coming in, Cheryl Johnson, Selena Webster-Vass, Elizabeth Winings, Lindsey Gray, and Cheryl Deese on the phone. Thank you all for coming in and talking to me about this important subject. Thank you for having us. Thank you for your time. Thank you for having us. Thank you for making this space. Let's do it again. We will do it again. And meet us at Ed White at 10 o'clock on Thursday for our Youth Mental Health Summit. All right.