 My name is Terry Sunland. I work for the Centre for International Forestry Research, which is based in Bogor. We're an international organisation which has our global headquarters here. We work throughout the tropics, and my particular emphasis is mostly West Africa and South Asia. I work very little in Indonesia, which is a strange anomaly by actually living here, but I'm going to share some work that we're doing and have done on forest trees and nutrition, which has some implications for forestry here in Indonesia. But just as I was invited to give this talk, I was trying to think, am I a nerd? Am I the kind of nerd that Jen has just sort of presented on the stage there? The person that sort of has band-aids around their glasses and wears dodgy t-shirts. Apparently my t-shirt that I arrived in was so dodgy my wife bought this one from a place down the road because it was far less nerdy. So clearly I have elements of nerdiness, and I actually found something online which is a bit of a nerd test. So if you find these jokes funnily, apparently you are a nerd. And I actually found a whole list of 30 or 40 of these jokes, and I was actually hysterics in my office. So I think the nerdism is definitely there. So let me share some aspects of being a forestry researcher. I've been working in forestry research across the tropics for around about 25-ish years. Yeah, quite a while. My first sojourn was in Panama, and I met one of these chaps, a brown recluse spider. And there I am, age 19, a very young, geeky nerd with a very swollen finger that was nearly chopped off by the American Marines in whose hospital I resided. 1996, I had a tree fall on me in Cameroon. It sounds very funny. I know when you're a forest or you have a tree fall on you, ha, ha, ha. This put me in hospital for three months, and I was on traction for another three months. So a bit of an experience, a forestry dynamics experience, as we used to say. Of course, working in the tropics, working in the forest, you get a number of parasites. I've had malaria lots of times. Bilhazia incocerosis, which is river blindness, and have been poked and prodded by various medical students around the world. Wanting to see all these wonderful diseases now they manifest themselves in human beings. I've had many accidents in the forest. This is an unfortunate one, using a crossbow, trying to fire a line into a tree to climb up into the tree to collect flowers. And that just sums pretty much up my accident pronus, of which I do have some repute. Living and working in the forest, all of those here who do that tend to eat things we'd rather not, and this is smoked bushmeat in Nigeria, which has been carried out of the forest for a few days, and smoked, and you often have to bang the maggots out before you can actually eat the meat. And who's ever going to complain about Jakarta's roads again? This is a familiar sight in much of the forest areas we work in, and this is an old Land Rover I had for many, many years. Never really usually got stuck, but this is a particularly bad day. As I say, you can't complain about Jakarta's roads. But working in the tropics, we do see some fabulous sights. This is in Belibai, in central Africa, which has the highest concentrations of forest elephants in these wonderful salt lake areas. And I was standing on a podium for a couple of days with a woman who stood on that podium for 17 years counting these elephants. The dedication of many forest researchers is quite remarkable. Meeting wonderful people. I've got thousands of these types of pictures of areas where we've worked in with different types of people. And last but not least, I met my wife working in the forest, checking, smile on wave. So lots of benefits and ups and downs of working in the forest. So let's get serious about some of the issues I want to talk about and highlight today. The idea that we're trying to promote here in many respects is the evolution of agriculture and forestry and how agriculture and forestry fit together. As our primal ancestors crept out of the forest in the savannas and found that a few nuts and seeds would actually grow when planted, agriculture particularly in the Middle East became the real source of civilization. It began about 12,000 years ago. But over the centuries we've used many, many, many thousands of plants and animals for our nutrition, for our health, for our medicines. But over the last 100 odd years we've basically simplified our diet significantly. We've cut down on the diversity of our diet. So the biodiversity that provided much of the value of the forest, if you like, has been narrowed in such a way that we have what's called a diet simplification. And today only 12 plant crops and only 14 animal, domestic animal species provide 98% of the world's food. That's a pretty shocking statistic when you consider we have 250,000 species of plant extant in the world. And only three crops provide more than 50% of the calorific energy of our current food system. That's a pretty narrow genetic base. And we've lost a lot of our agrobial diversity because of it. So what are the effects of this diet simplification? So in many respects those of us wake up in the morning, we're very fortunate here. We wake up to a possible feast. And many people wake up to a famine. There's a huge inequity in our food distribution systems. And I'll just explain that a little bit more. So essentially we still have in 2015 more than 800 people undernourished and 200 million children that are underweight. More than a billion people are classified as hungry. And these are data that come from the Food and Agriculture Organization that were published last year. Yet we have one billion people who are obese. And that obesity leads to non-communicable diseases like diabetes, heart disease. Diseases that are starting to become much more common in countries like Indonesia and even in developing countries in West Africa and Latin America where you would traditionally not think of over-consumption contributing towards bad diets. This monoculture and the simplification of diets has also contributed to vulnerability to climate change events, particularly related to pest and diseases, droughts and other climate issues. But also market forces. Something I'll touch on a little bit more in a latter slide. And sadly 40% of the food actually grown is wasted. 50% of food is lost in post-harvest and up to 30% is lost because you and I will probably buy a nice salad in here and after three or four days if we haven't eaten it it goes straight in the bin. And this is a huge problem. And there's a very, very commendable campaign in the UK at the moment to stop food waste. And the large supermarket conglomerates have bought into this new scheme and we can touch on that again in the discussion session if necessary. So in short, our food systems, our global food systems are not functioning in the way they should do. They're not providing a balanced diet for many people and they're providing an over-consumptive diet for many others. And essentially we've not only homogenized our culture if you look at any high street in Indonesia or in any country in the world we have homogenized culture, the Starbucks, the KFC, McDonald's. So our culture homogenization has also led to this homogenization of nature if you like, so this very simplification of diets. And of course there are some major culprits. The large agriculture conglomerates often get blamed for these issues and if there's anybody from Monsanto here there's no finger pointing it's just the only cartoon I could find to illustrate this point. And there's a lot of concern that the future of food is basically about genetic modification, technology. I was at a workshop recently in Zambu where we're talking about injecting sweet potato with vitamin A and spending millions of dollars doing so. I don't quite get that. If you want vitamin A you actually just go to the forest and harvest a few leafy vegetables. Why spend millions of dollars on fortification of vitamin A in sweet potato? And they're doing the same for maize and also sweet potato, maize and cassava, cassava is the other crop. Again cassava I'll touch on in a later slide. But our food systems are not only dysfunctional because of the inequity and the calorific emphasis on our food system and the lack of nutrition in many respects. But there are some geopolitical issues as well. And this is an interesting slide which shows food price spikes correlated with periods of social unrest. And particularly here we have the Arab Spring from 2008 to 2010 large areas of political unrest occurred because people couldn't afford basic food stuffs. And there are some strong linkages between the geopolitical aspects of food production and our simplification of diets. And again I'll talk about that in a later slide. So forests, this is what I do. This is what my colleague at the back there does. Megresh, hi, Megresh. Thanks for coming. We basically are looking at why forests are important for food and livelihood issues. And there's some great figures out there, some great stats which are starting to provide a really strong evidence base as to why forests are important for food security, nutrition and livelihoods. And there's a wonderful study last year published by the United Nations Forum on Forest which actually show that one billion people, that's one seventh of the world, rely on some way on forests for their nutrition, food, medicines or livelihoods and direct income. One fifth of rural income is derived from the environment so we undertook a very extensive global survey coordinated by CIFOR. 38 different countries, 8,000 households and found the average household derived at least one fifth of its income from the environment and actually outstripped in many respects income from agriculture. Wild Harvested Meat is a contentious issue but bush meat in particularly in Central Africa and in Latin America provides significant proportion of protein intake for many rural communities and is extremely important for a balanced diet. And there have been some interesting discussions on replacing this bush meat source. And in Central Africa, if I must get this right, it's something like 700 tons of bush meat are consumed each year in the Congo Basin. To replace that with livestock you would need to clear 2 million hectares of forest to grow cattle to be able to replace that meat source. So these are interesting conundrums in our food systems that also need to be taken into account. 75% of the world's population still rely on medicinal plants, not only because of culture but because of economic need and necessity. And 6% of the global fruit production does not come from large fields of wheat, cane, barley and everything else. It comes from diverse smallholder systems, primarily at the purview of women. Women play an incredibly important role in the smallholder agriculture systems. Up to 80% in Africa and 60% in Asia of the smallholder farmers are women and these are extremely important in terms of the resilience of food systems. Basically growing many different crops in a smaller area is a great, how do you call it, a defence against climate change. People are able to adapt, not putting all your eggs into a basket and there was you to diversify and make sure that you'll at least at the end of the year have some crops which have survived a particular climate issue. And we have a long tradition of managing forests of food. Swidden agriculture slash unburned agriculture was thought of as a negative thing. It's actually a very positive way of managing forests for food. The fellow systems are important but also it links very clearly with this issue of diversity with our food systems within the forest ecosystem. So what do forests give us? They give us all the things we quite like. Chocolate. Chocolate comes essentially from a very small area of Central and South America but is now pervasive throughout the tropics as a multi-million dollar market and I'm sure most people here like chocolate to some degree. Other crops such as coffee. Coffee has a very interesting history. The ancestral root of coffee is two or three valleys in Southern Ethiopia and from there this huge industry is developed and people I work with cannot function without their first coffee of the day. Don't speak to me until I've had my first coffee. It's an interesting addiction resulting from what is essentially a very minor, very common bean. Ratan. Ratan is something which is very common in Indonesia and Southeast Asia. A little bit in Africa. I did my PhD on Ratan in Africa. Ratan's worth up to $6.5 billion a year. This is no small crop and it's very important in terms of understanding the production to consumption system that there's a very, very strong and equitable revenue-sharing aspect to the Ratan industry. So people make money all the way along the trade which is why it's extremely profitable. People eat insects in many parts of the world. These are insects which are seasonal in Central Africa and these are eaten as soon as they fall to the ground. In Thailand up to I think 11,000 tons of insects are processed each year and you can buy tins of processed caterpillars and grasshoppers in the markets all throughout Thailand and these are being mooted as a potential new food source for the wider society. Bushmeat I mentioned is extremely important. Despite the ethical considerations of Bushmeat, the nutritional value is extremely important. Or even more important I think. Many, many medicines come from rainforest plants and trees. I'll touch on one in a subsequent slide. But the pharmaceutical industry has relied significantly on novel chemicals from rainforest trees. Unfortunately as the pharmaceutical industry becomes more and more regulated, the actual system of identifying and producing and marketing these products becomes extremely expensive. So there's less emphasis on looking for novel medicines in the tropical rainforests. Charcoal and other fuel would cannot be overestimated at all. Up to 80% of the world's fuel would is used to make water drinkable. So you can imagine if we didn't have fuel would and people were drinking water that was unclean, the incidences of waterborne diseases would be that much more than they already are. And without fuel and energy to be able to cook your food, most of it would be unpalatable. So again there's a very negative impact and perception of fuel would and its importance in terms of forest sustainability, but it plays an incredibly important role in the health and nutrition of many, many millions of people. And here's our old favourite, oil palm. Rainforest, this is from the ancestral forest of West Africa and it's spread throughout the tropics particularly in Southeast Asia. But the oils and the resins produced by this wonderful palm are actually incredibly important and widely used in its native range and as we've seen has a strong global market value. Clean water, watershed protection and the provision of clean water is extremely important and an amazing role for forests. There are compensatory schemes to ensure that watersheds are protected and to be able to provide clean water. And there's an excellent example in Gooding-Halliman where Danone is paying for the protection of that watershed to make sure that the Jakarta catchment area has access to clean water and we're all familiar with the tankers that go up and down the jaguari every day bringing clean water from that area into the city. And unfortunately there are other things that emerge from the forest and we all know that most of you will recognise this as Ebola. Many communicable diseases have increased and the instances of communicable diseases have increased as forests have disappeared. I didn't have time to go into this in much detail but there are some very nice graphs that show the correlation of deforestation with the increase of malaria, Ebola and other communicable diseases from the tropical forests. But forest and nutrition, this is something that we see for have been working on in great detail and have undertaken a very extensive survey of nutrition and tree relationships in Africa focusing on USAID's demographic health survey data. And these data show that there is a strong relationship between tree cover and dietary diversity. So what that means is people who live in close proximity to forests and trees have a better diet, have a broader diet and a much more nutritious diet and independent of poverty. And this is a very powerful message and I presented these results, the initial or scientific results to a meeting in Zambia to a bunch of nutritionists within our own agricultural world. And I was stopped halfway through and someone said, wait, wait, wait, you have data to show that trees and nutrition have a strong relation, there's a correlation basically. And they said, we don't even have that for agriculture. So this is disconnect in many respects in our food system as I said earlier that it beggars belief that we focus on calories in terms of food security but not in terms of nutrition. And I think that this relationship between forests and nutrition and dietary diversity has sent a very powerful message to the donor community in particular and we're glad to be the recipients of some of that donor largesse but also it shows that there are stronger and much more nuanced relationships between forests, agriculture and food security. So we did the same analysis for Indonesia and we find exactly the same relationship despite completely different agrarian systems despite the fact that the culture is completely different that the rice culture here is much more prevalent than anything else in Africa but the relationship is the same. The proximity to forests and trees, people have better nutrition but there are some complexities. We found some interesting dynamics and maybe people can help out in the question and answer session. So proximity to forests and trees, no problem. It's a black and white issue. Better dietary diversity, better nutrition. Move to a plantation area. Move to a plantation area and you have the same issue even though there are no forests and trees there. Move to an oil palm plantation and dietary diversity and nutrition are extremely poor. So we're not quite sure what that correlation is so we have a couple of students out in the field trying to understand what that is but it looks like in oil palm plantations where you have disposable income people will rely less on forest products or forest fruits and will actually use that disposable income to buy usually Indomie or other products and we had a very interesting meeting in Forest Asia in Jakarta earlier this year where this phenomenon was turned as the Indom... Oops, sorry, going backwards. The Indomization of rural societies. So the people are relying on Indomie rather than their traditional foods in many respects but that will be interesting to discuss and explore a little bit further this evening if possible. But one thing that's always fascinated me is that we have all these medicines and fruits and tree and resins and everything else from the rainforest but how did we ever bloody discover them? I mean think about cassava. Cassava is actually a very interesting product. Cassava is a native of South America but it's actually racked full of prusic acid which is cyanide and cyanide will kill you. Now you have to process cassava in so many ways to get rid of that prusic acid, get rid of that cyanide so that it's palatable but how do you do that? I mean did our ancestors sit there and sort of do this trial and error approach? Is it your turn? You go ahead and you taste this one and I mean how much trial and error was there and I've actually worked in the field to believe that it's divinity, that it's divine guidance that has allowed people to test these medicines but I have no explanation for it at all but I just find it absolutely fascinating that we have these medicines from the rainforest that have the most extraordinary uses and that products such as cassava which are calorie poor full of cyanide have become a global staple so it's a very interesting ancestral history to much of our agricultural systems and I wanted to do more of these but this is one really cool example of a product that I've been working on in Central Africa for a number of years and does anybody here suffer from erectile dysfunction? I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask that but anyway this is a plant that has exactly the same effect as Viagra and it's managed traditionally by pygmies in Central Africa and they have these very complex management systems which plants are harvested on a rotational basis they avoid the logging and the destructive practices that often occur in these concession areas these are breaking down as you can see this is in the logging concession where it's called it's called it's felled and stripped for the bark and the bark is then processed into this product called yohimbi but it just shows how important the integrated management systems are and again I'd like to have shown a few more examples but obviously time is against me but one thing that we wanted to emphasize is that we live in a changing world and one of the things that I picked up in the last week or so I was at a conference in Oxford and somebody presented a slide very similar to this and I thought this would be quite nice to use to actually copy and cheat actually but it's very very interesting that we, a typical person as defined by National Geographic this is a melange I think of every single person in the world consumes around 2.1 hectares of the earth's resources and 7 billion of us actually consume up to 14.7 billion I actually did the maths and it is quite right but our global current current global capacity is 11 billion hectares per year so we have what is essentially ecological deficit now we make that up for technology, with technology so you know our high yielding rice our ability to manage the environment in such a way that we don't exacerbate that ecological deficit if that makes sense but essentially we're consuming more than 1.3 earths a year but how long is that sustainable and one of the major issues is that well Indonesia is a classic example there's some data here that shows forest cover loss versus oil palm production the expansion of draining of peat swamps and the planting of acacia mangem burning of residual forests particularly on peat lands and here you see, it's very difficult to see actually but this is southern Sumatra this is Borneo and as such Indonesia is the third largest greenhouse gas emitter anywhere in the world and so these contributions to climate change these changing paradigms in terms of future sustainable development are extremely important and there was a great paper published last week which actually shows very strong data that we're all going to be experiencing some sort of changing climate in wherever we live by 2050 in 90, where are we now, 2015 I hate to say I'm 47 in 2050 I'm going to be 82 so this isn't a problem for your kids this is a problem now this is a problem that we need to think about now and with this lovely picture here showing the longevity of our current generations we don't need to be shrugging off these issues we don't need to be thinking about what's going to be happening in the future we need to think about what we can do now to avert these kind of situations so last couple of slides one of the going back to food security one of the biggest impacts of climate change is we're going to see at the northern latitudes much more productivity in terms of agriculture so if we move to Canada and some areas of the northern United States northern Europe including Scandinavia and particularly the UK, Russia and China we're going to be seeing huge increases in crop production because of the changing climates the guys that we're going to be suffering in Latin America, Africa and South Asia and even Australia which is also a strong agriculture producer so much of the tropics is going to be reliant on these temperate systems for food products so essentially we need to be nice to the Canadians we've got to be nice to the Russians we've got to be nice to the Chinese and especially the folks from northern Europe those guys in Scandinavia they've probably got it all wrapped up anyway be nice to the Brits as well because we're going to be producing the food that's going to be coming to the tropics in the future so in summary the challenges of future sustainable development are really related to population growth and gender inequity, two sides of the same coin in many respects again as I mentioned I was at the workshop in Oxford last week and there was a very polarized discussion about population growth that it wasn't important but the underpinning of that was gender equity and making sure that women have a choice about population and again as I say these two issues are very much interlinked issues of climate change, food inequity which I've mentioned the issue of globalization, the homogenization of culture and nature and the overconsumption of the planet's resources and from our perspective the continued forest and biodiversity loss that we continue to experience but it's not all bad I think 2014 actually has been a very positive year from the forestry perspective the new sustainable development goals that are replacing the millennium development goals ineffective though they may have been I've now stretched out and reached out to include forests much more specifically than previously there was a New York declaration of forests and agriculture not quite linking the two together but the declaration of forests actually committed zero deforestation and more than 120 companies signed up to this declaration monitoring it is going to be difficult but I reread it this afternoon I was fascinated to see the types of companies it's not just oil palm companies or logging companies it's fashion houses it's food production, Heinz people all kinds of companies that you wouldn't think would be thinking about zero deforestation so there is a paradigm shift the world is changing into a much better understanding of the importance of our natural environment and they're willing to take those green accounting procedures to heart and to case and fundamentally we're not talking about forests or agriculture or other land uses we're talking about landscapes and these landscapes everything is interconnected and the silo mentality that has characterized much of the development community's activities in the last 30 to 40 years agriculture on one side, forestry on the other and never the twain shall meet has proved to be unsustainable and unrealistic and I think that the last two or three years we've seen this great paradigm shift towards much more integrated approaches in land use patterns and no less so than Indonesia and I think some of the legislation here in this country is much more forward thinking than in many others in terms of integrated land use and land use planning and the decentralization process and just finally a quote from Albert Einstein we've always got to finish with a quote from Albert Einstein but it's a useful one because it actually gives us nerds something to think about in terms of don't just watch but try and do something and I hope that the presentation that I've been able to put together at least shows that there is progress there is the world is changing and we need to think more about how we as individuals can change it as well thank you very much okay we have some options for question sessions we can do them all at the end or do them right now so let's start by doing them right now and we'll see if there are any questions and if not we can go back to it later in the end but does anyone have any comments or questions or observations for Terry I know it's late so my question out of sort of personal interest is you talked a bit about edible insects in Africa and in Thailand do you know anything about that industry in Indonesia, how popular is it here and whether or not it's being explored here no I don't but maybe someone in the audience does I'm sure is there a history of culture of eating insects here in Indonesia there is someone who wants to explain maybe he can help I'm not very sure about eating insects but I think in Java people eat what is Laron in English after the rain then you have the Laron yeah the flying I think they will cook it and eat it so I was told one time that there is an insect market where you can buy edible insects up in Glodok has anyone been there seen that can they verify it looks like a no any other questions or comments otherwise we can go to break and just do a question session later if you have any questions if you have any questions then you would like to say it in Bahasa I will help to translate it we also have a question back there Eric no I just was wondering if you could give a little bit more information about your comment that slash and burn agriculture is actually a good thing I know that recently there's been evidence that it hasn't been the driver of deforestation that we thought it was for many years but to say it's a good thing I just like to hear what you meant by that comment I guess it's probably a reaction to such strong negativity about slash and burn agriculture or sweden agriculture the general perception is that because you're clearing forests and burning the residue that it has an infinite negative effect but in fact it doesn't have a reasonable review of slash and burn agriculture I think published about three years ago which showed on the whole the impacts on forests were actually limited compared to permanent agriculture simply because of the shifting nature and of course there are issues of population and short of valos and all of that but I guess my point is because slash and burn agriculture is so deeply rooted in history the complex management systems for food that's sort of driven plays that link between forests and agriculture and I think what the strong message that comes from our work is forests and trees are never going to be able to provide global food security but neither is our existing agricultural system you need the two together and what unfortunately is the system now you've got the asylum mentality and you've got the world thinking in a very linear fashion and it's very logical by 2050 we're going to have what 9 billion people on earth those 9 billion people are going to be fed the traditional way of feeding people is to grow as many calories as possible but as we've seen our food systems don't necessarily are not conducive to that the other thing I wanted to touch on but again didn't have time was the role of forests and we've just done a very neat systematic review looking at how forests contribute to agriculture not only small scale agriculture but also large scale agriculture so if you think of pollination services for example if you take coffee farms extensive coffee farms in Brazil and Costa Rica yields drop off significantly away from forests because of two things the pollinators live in the forest they're not too far to do the pollination and also climate regulation and we're finding exactly the same trend with oil palm so this is going to be a big game changer in Indonesia I think because we're developing a dataset that is essentially looking at yields across oil palm estates and their proximity to forests and what is the role of those forest fragments within that oil palm system and I don't think it's about pollination is going to play a role but what we're hearing from some of the estate managers is that it's water and climate regulation you get too many fluctuations in temperature the further away you get from the forest then the forest play that very important regulatory role so there are all these kind of dynamics and they're almost linked to the slasher burn model even though the scale spatially is very different and temporarily of course but I hope that answers your question. Okay any other questions? Okay we have one more back there great. How sustainable do you think consuming insect is? How sustainable is consumed very apparently There was a I hate to say this sounds really nerdy but there was food security and insects meeting in Rome last year and the general consensus also came out with this big declaration that insect farming was probably the most sustainable source of protein of any fish or bush meat or any other source of protein so it seems to be very sustainable Terry I actually have two questions when you mentioned about endomization do you also found that there is a worse food trend from having healthy snacks at home mother selling it getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning in Indonesia I've done some research in several parts of Indonesia and I found when I live with households that the mother and the daughter got up at 4 o'clock in the morning they make healthy snacks and the daughter sell it the mother also sell it so that the children can actually go to school with those snacks and snacks money the reasons why I'm actually asking you this I'm working for the price person's office for a reality check approach methodology and we found that with that it's actually causing a much more poverty worse than before because with that kind of money 10,000 it can actually fit the whole family but now the children has to take the 10,000 just to buy for the snacks do you also look at the maybe I'm taking a different level but do you also look at the connections between the dietary consumptions the healthy food habits and also the policies that are being encouraged by the government both at the national and local level to encourage better and healthy food consumptions rather than having those food trends being encouraged by having snacks and indomization that's more of a comment than a question and I think that's fascinating I think it sounds like we need to talk to you because these are some of the sort of knowledge gaps that we have that there's been some speculation that because of transmigration you get pockets of Javanese in Sumatra or Kalamantan who have an emphasis on a much more protein rich diet and so there isn't the same level of under nutrition in these particular communities yet in communities that are more indigenous in Kalamantan and Sumatra that are focusing on the oil palm production systems because of that extra money in the pocket instead of cooking those healthy snacks they'll actually just go out and buy indomi and it was a great expression at the Forest Asia meeting there was 600-700 people in the room and the lady who coined the term got a standing ovation because it was an innovative way to think about the shifting diets and this dietary transition and there was a previous researcher who worked at Seafield called Patrice Levin and he did some very really excellent work on the punan on those that move to the city and those that stayed in the forest and their economic and nutritional circumstances and he found that those that stayed in the forest they were poor for sure but they maintained a level of nutrition and food security that those in the city had lost and they were potentially more wealthy they had access to the cash economy but their diets were terrible, there were high instances of alcoholism and other issues so the title of his paper was out of the forest, out of poverty question mark and it's a different kind of poverty so all these complexities are fascinating I think and how we draw up policy recommendations based on these subtleties and nuances if you like is a huge challenge but these are good examples thank you. If you have time I would like to speak to you on this because we are actually looking at other recommendations and research that can actually back our reports so that our residents wouldn't be resistant on receiving our reports and policy paper. Thank you Terry. That sounds great.