 Great, excellent. Good, good evening everyone and greetings from Nairobi, Kenya. My name is Awino cage and associate professor in political sociology in the department of politics and international studies. And I'm also the associate director for equity and accountability. It gives me great pleasure to say a few words to open this event and then hand it over to those who have a lot more to say than I do. This event is called unfinished business LGBTQIA plus voices of the revolution. This is a source special event series that builds on global LGBTQIA plus solidarity, and is hosted by Dan glass who is a source community fellow who is an award winning based mentor performant writer who uses music performance and protest to catalyze love so revolution and justice in communities confronting injustice. Dan glass has graciously brought to source and to us this evening Kaleho, who will be speaking with us. Again, let me say Karibuni sign up to source for those of you who are physically in the room and those who are far away virtually like me or in London but virtually joining the events. I do look forward to tracking and following the conversations once again welcome done again welcome Kaleho and let's get right into it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Can you hear us all right we know you can hear it. Thank you so much that was really lovely. There's a really lovely way to start. I'm not going to take too long because we've got cat with us tonight. I just want to introduce the kind of concept that we've been working together on the program. This year is the 50 say who you are. Oh, I'm Dan glass. We met five years back. Six. Six. Oh my God. Where's the time but with them queer tours of London. And we did a specific project within that called unfinished business LGBT voices of the revolution. And then fast forward six years a lot has changed but this year was the 50th anniversary of the radical roots of pride in 1972. The mission has always been absolute freedom for all and has always been anti racist and anti imperialist since it began in 1972, very different from corporate pride which was on July the second we were on July the first. And so this series which thanks to Angelica and thanks to a lot of other people in so as looks at how we can specifically carry on challenging the British empires. One of the most successful exports of homophobic legislation. That has been a formidable activist in Botswana in London and across the world for LGBTQI plus rights. The next event that we have is November the 29 with Jason Jones who wrote the legislation to overturn homophobic legislation in Trinidad and Tobago. So Jason will be joining us on November the 29 really to like understand and explore more about how we can live in solidarity and build connections and build successful campaigns as I don't know if you've seen it but the most beautiful picture of cat when I didn't, I didn't know a lot of what was going on behind the scenes. And I'll get it up in a second cat holding the pride flag in the courtroom, correct me if I'm wrong in Botswana so, oh my God that made my year. And you know in our lifetimes we can see the overturning of a lot of these homophobic legislations, even in the last year there's been Singapore Botswana Trinidad and Tobago. There's still 69 across the world, 41 in the Commonwealth. Was it Cuba or Costa Rica? The family planning law, the family planning law in Cuba. So things are changing and so the next two hours the suggestion is how we can continue building solidarity from all of our countries from all of our networks and learn and deepen our toolkit for overturning homophobic legislation. I was going to read this section about cat in my, should I read it? Say where it's from first. Okay, one of the last images of cat where it's so nice to be back together was, I can't remember you were walking down the street with a whole set of balloons structural back. That was after Aderonke's confirmation. I loved being able to stay. Yes, in the UK. Yes, and then we were taking down all the decorations. And I was like where these balloons going to go. You will read the passage and just let walking down the street with balloons. Tell the people where it's from. Okay, so this was our friend Aderonke. No, I mean the book. Oh, the book is called United Queerdom from the Legends of the Gay Liberation Front to the Queers of Tomorrow. And I wrote that really in tribute to the people who founded Pride. So it's interviews. And again I say radical pride not corporate pride. It's interviews with them for mainly as well as 64 younger generation LGBTQIA activists from a range of movements UK black pride, lesbian, gay support the migrants African rainbow family to really kind of explore what the 50th anniversary of pride means. My next book which is just coming out next spring is queer footprints is a walk into a guide of queer London. I don't know much about that. But this was a kind of excerpt of cats tour, which was called unfinished business LGBT voices of the revolution. So this was, this came out to 2020 but this was actually from 2017. We're standing outside the Royal Courts of Justice at the other in temple, where a friend had a Ron Kay a leading queer activist was defending her right to get asylum. She's Nigerian. And the judge famously said, how can you be a lesbian if you've got children. So this is how ridiculous and awful the British state is. So this was cat. Welcome everyone to queer tours of London queer freedom everywhere special with your fabulous tour guide cat. I would like to start with my interpretation of the poem, caged bird by poet Maya Angelou. The cage bird sings with a fearful trail of things unknown but long for steel, and his tune is heard on the distant hill for the cage bird sings of freedom. And I believe we're coming out in this cold rainy afternoon, when we could have easily hidden under the covers. But maybe you're as sick of hiding depressed under the covers as I am, as I'm sure many of us are. Today I'm so chuffed this is me speaking about myself is embarrassing. I'm so chuffed to be standing next to cat members of the LGBTQIA plus community and supporters from various Commonwealth nation diasporas are standing outside the Ugandan Embassy on a blowy and bright winter's morning to pay tribute to the groundbreaking work of Ugandan queer and HIV and AIDS activist David Cato. Is the eight years since he was a people head of David Cato. Like pioneering Ugandan queer and HIV activist is the eight years since he was bludgeoned to death in his home in 2011. He was murdered just weeks after assisting and securing a high quality. They're printed the names photographs and addresses of gay people that explicitly call for their execution call me could show is the film that this is explored in the huge crowd is from Uganda Bangladesh Nigeria, Russia, Trinidad and Svega and the UK. People have come with sponges to wash the homophobia of the embassies we will visit. The atmosphere is electric, unpeeling multiple layers of structural injustice, and the innate truth that queer story is told by those who write it means that there are always people in communities whose story is traditionally left out the picture. Like the trans community people with HIV queer migrants or David Cato until someone kicks off. The crowd surrounds cat and first to pay tribute to David Cato is Edwin to Sanjay of African equality foundation. Edwin says, the fight claims David Cato's life. This is why we launched a movement driven by refugees and asylum seekers, adamant and speaking out for themselves, instead of being spoken to or about as vulnerable people. This movement perpetuated by Cato Cato's example. Cato's activist legacy and the reality of his absence raw memorable loss. The loss of David is a tragedy for the activism he would surely have instigated, as well as being a point of uprising amongst freedom fighters who challenge injustice in his name. He was murdered for being queer, his surviving family endangered. The target of the tour is a common conference taking place that week. The Commonwealth heads of government meeting or Chogham conferences here. And we are on the streets of London to agitate for a global movement of creative activism to decriminalize homosexuality everywhere. Cat shouted across the crowd and then read a message from Gay Liberation Front activist and campaigner Peter Tatchel that was sent for the occasion. The Commonwealth is a bastion of homophobia. In defense of human rights principles of the Commonwealth Charter at 37 out of the 53 Commonwealth countries criminalize LGBTQIA plus people. Nine use life imprisonment. In parts of two countries Pakistan and Nigeria, the death penalty can be used. Even more Commonwealth countries fail to protect queer people against discrimination and hate crime and reject dialogue with their local queer organizations. For six days, for six decades, the leaders at Commonwealth summits have refused to discuss, let alone support equality for the estimated more than 100 million queer citizens living in the member states. After a night out favorite karaoke bar and cover which karaoke bar. Don't know how to think that maybe we can go back tonight. Favorite karaoke but uncovered it I think it was this summer covered in a bundle of balloons cat radiates good energy love in many different ways has been tattooed on her body as it is a comfort neck. After so many devastating shareings of homophobia from around the world cat's outfit is exactly what the crowd needs to lift their spirits. So many great revolutionary movements to overturn injustice look fabulous. We can look to the hot pink sorry wearing galabi gang in India defending against rapists. A traditional African cloth for the Black Panthers war to promote racial pride or to the actor aids coalition to unleash power activists with their tight graffiti art t shirts. So I finished. I can go for ages. We're good. We're good. We're good. Thank you. Yes, applause for that. This is the book for the people online. Yes. No, I was keeping myself out of it. No time to have us together. Thank you so much. Where can they buy the book working by the book gaze the word book shop around the corner house wins book shop. We've got the new beacon book shops in Vincebury Park, which is the last remaining to people know new beacon book shops. Love that place. It's the last remaining radical black history book shop in London. 73 Stroud Green Road. A lot of independent book shops but also the mainstream book shops as well. But one last question from my end. Imagine it's seven o'clock today. What are the specific questions that you want answered because there's so many things that we can talk about and explore other specific questions specific areas that you have like got a passionate inquiry or just a little inquiry in. And don't be shy. There's no room for shyness here. Go straight in. Yeah. I guess the question is. Do you have something that you're thinking about that you might think that I would have an answer to. And if I don't have an answer. I will tell you, I don't have an answer to it. But otherwise I am a thinker. That is what I do. That is what makes me happy. Yeah. Dan and I will spiral off into a conversation, which will hopefully incite you to ask questions. In case you just to reread cat's bug fear again. No, we don't do that. Okay. I'm not my buyer. The buyer is what gets people here but when I'm here, it's just me. So no questions, no questions, no inquiries, we're starting on a blank old slate. Great. Let's go. So what was it like in the courtroom in Botswana, when you heard the legislation to overturn criminalization was was real and what was your role in it. And what can we learn from that. So it was very interesting because 20 this happened in 2020. The picture was taken in 2019. And the decriminalization happened in 2021. So 2019, I was a fellow with our production international, which is the only accredited UN accredited LGBTQ plus human rights focused organization in the world. I was a fellow with them, which meant I got access to the UN system, got to do a little bit of advocacy, managed to sit on two different panels, the first one was the first panel that focus on trans lives ever to be hosted in the UN general assembly building. And that was sponsored by Argentina, Argentina, I think Argentina and Malta. And I was like, oh my God, yes, making history, we get to talk about trans lives, because trans lives actually matter. And then the second panel was one of the most amazing moments that I've ever had in my life, because we were with UN women and we had, we were talking trans lives and non binary lives. So today, I'm going to go was on the panel with me. Gina Rosero is on the panel with me, I was on the panel. I think the representative from Argentina was on the panel and then to other people, including Kate will and a barnet was on the panel. The most fun thing, if you can imagine the United Nations, right. And the reason I'm going to the United Nations before I go into what's on it is I want to paint a picture. This is the United Nations, everybody's walking around in a blue or gray or black suits with ties, and otherwise, you know, you know, looking either looking very dowdy, or super super like, I'm at work. And for that particular panel. In the General Assembly building. Outright had said to the entire queer community. Do you want to come through. Let's go. People in drag coming through we had people in full face we had all sorts of just the diverse spectrum of trans and gender diverse persons, walking through these halls. While all these other people who it's like, you know, I'm in my suit and my time I've got a briefcase, we're walking about and being able to be part of that history was one thing. But being at home and hearing a person who's responsibility as a legal practitioner or an officer of the law. Who bears a name from was one. Saying my favorite part of the ruling was, if a law no longer serves the people it's meant to govern, then is it not fit for a museum. And that was quite literally just the commentary on the fact that why are we holding things that actually don't matter to us anymore. Within the African continent within our context. Why is it that we brought something that should be in a museum but we still use it to hang over people who are living now. Not an idea of people, but people who are actually alive. Yeah, so being in that courtroom and hearing that was. It was, it, it felt as if I was watching a film. Hey, that's on I can think like this. Right because too often again we get taught that in this very obedient or like we always must obey culture. All of a sudden, somebody is not obeying. Yeah, by saying well actually I have the power. I have the knowledge and I have all of these other things so I'm not going to sit and say oh, I should be scared of the people. And then what happened in 2021 when the Court of Appeal finally put their stamp on because in was on a you've got the High Court and you've got the Court of Appeal High Court can make all of the rulings for everything. The High Court rules over customary as well as like the Roman Dutch law was on it is unique in the fact that we have two different legal systems. And so, and they're both valid. So the traditional customary law is not subservient to Roman Dutch law and was on. The customary law ruling and that's it. But customary law rulings can always be appealed to the High Court and the Court of Appeals. So, when it was said that like, here we are at the Court of Appeals and the Court of Appeals said, we uphold what the High Court has said. One of the major things was if you keep saying Boudwana isn't ready or Boudwana are not ready for legal reform. Who are these Boudwana because of the President can mention it if it can be in the newspapers if it can be on the media, if we can have all of these social cultural events. Which Boudwana are you waiting for. Yeah. I'm just curious. Thank you. Who else is from a country where it currently is always is was previously criminalized speak homosexuality was criminalized. Which countries have we got here. India. India. Yeah. Zimbabwe. So we're still current with Zimbabwe. Yeah. India. Cool. And will you follow in the changes and when it happened. Okay. I'm not going to out you. Okay. I don't know what I was talking about. But yeah, so it was very interesting. And sort of I guess to preempt your next question around because Dan and I will sit like this. To be in the next question, which is around. But how does it happen. You know, very often right now, civil society is losing so much space. If any of you have any people who are like, whole card holding British people in the room. Like you are a person who is a British. Right. So, um, I'm sorry to disillusion you if this is a disillusionment, but the UK, for all that it has done to sort of kind of maybe grant some kind of safety or even like dignity to LGBTQ plus people. The UK never mind people who are coming into the UK is doing a terrible job of it. So this is also one of the roots of the unfinished business tour was that under queer tours of London which is an initiative that Dan, and a few friends founded a few years ago which I used to so I ran a tour which was around, but it was the immigration tour it was a Commonwealth decriminal and where we were focusing on the different milestones along the way of and what way UK history legal history and general cultural history were intersecting. So for example, it was only in 1990 that the World Health Organization removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders. Right. So that's 1990. Anybody born within five years of proximity to 1990 put your hands up. So either side either side of that so either 1985 or 1995. Everyone's after 1995 right. Right. No, no, not everyone. You're the only person born in like the 30s. And so, at the time that you were born. There was still like people fighting about whether or not you were insane because you were homosexual. Right. And the UK with section 28, when was section 28 revealed. Exactly, 2003. Yeah, section 28 was a clause that was introduced by Dan's least favorite person, one of Dan's people that forbids people from teaching anything regarding sexuality gender. So SRHR right now y'all and think oh yeah SRHR that's great no you would have gone to jail. You would have been filed for simply giving knowledge to people. So anything that you see right now happening in again in America where they're trying to stop critical race theory and all this sort of things. There's already law in the 90s in the UK to say don't you dare tell children that it is possible for people to even get divorced never mind to be attracted to people that are not their own partners that they've had children with. And the family is still this one thing. And section 28 has had its own repercussions. It is still lingering the anti buggery laws, the, well the buggery law which was what 1553 1533 1533 think how long ago 1533 1533. 15, not 19, not 1715. This is what the 16th century 16th century. We're in the 21st. So five centuries ago. This law was brought into ideation and then brought into effect. Five centuries ago 500 years ago. Yet today. People are being like slaughtered with machetes. Because they are clear. And that didn't happen. The thing happening today is not because. Oh yes, we don't believe in it. It's because 500 years ago. A law came into effect, and then a few explorations happened. And then Jesus Christ the Lord and the savior with the golden locks and the white road with the sandals. And then everybody's Lord and savior. Right, and that Lord and savior for some reason, even though he had queer friends, read the Bible, it's there. Even though he had queer friends apparently is the reason people are slaughtering people with machetes. About a thing 500 years ago. Botswana inherited our bits in 1883. 1800s. Do people not get tired? Honestly, do people not get tired? Because it's, it boggles the mind to think that something that old could be used as, no, but this is what we believe. Yet we don't believe in, you know, riding horses because it's much easier to catch the tube. We're fine with the tube, but we're not fine with horses. We're not fine with like homosexuality being a thing. Where people are just able to be just that. Without being possessed by demons without being anything else or mad or whatever. So yeah, this is how we ended up with unfinished business because there's so much business. And a lot of this business really does stem from 1533. And thank you. I know that I'm a bit curious to what subjects people are doing here. Just shout out. Or fields of interest. Anyone at all. Who are we talking to? That's an undergraduate or a master's in anti-appealism, anti-colonial. Wow. Okay, cool. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, what are the subjects or interests that we've got in the room? Law and what? Law and gender. Law and gender. Amazing. Sex work. Is that a master's? In sex work. Amazing. Wow, this institution. This is why every time we heard my qualification, they were like, are you going to sew us? Yeah, nice. It sounds very so. Mind you, I did a master's in human rights culture and social justice. So, yes, it sounds very so. Wow. I went sassics for my undergraduate, but our friend Andrea Cornwall, who just left last year, was an old friend from sassics and she brought us here as a community fellow. The last that is, the thought in my head is about endurization, which I'm sure most, if not everyone knows, can someone tell us quickly in brief how you would explain endurization of development? And I know that there's no specific words for it, but how would anyone, someone explain it? Speak a bit louder. Yeah. Yeah, big time. Yeah. To some degree. Yeah. Anybody else? So if you think of the endurization of development, what are you thinking? Because again, this is where we're going to go with this chat. It's a segue towards that. Is there anybody online? If you are online and you want to say something, please let us know. In five. Three. Two. One. That's all right. No, it's not it's not a class. It's not a lecture. So, um, so the endurization of development is from a critical perspective, the observation that there are many states that choose to adopt or sidestep doing the work. So for example, in both honor, um, 2017 was a great year for trans folks and gender diverse persons because two cases were heard in that year. And those two cases were two trans diverse persons who wanted to have their gender markers changed on their identity documents. One of them chose to withhold their identity. The other one was turned into a bit of a national spectacle. There was a woman who wanted to have her gender marker changed. And it just so happened that it coincided with the fact that she was also engaged to be married. And so, technically, for the state, it would have still been a heterosexual marriage. Right. If they had had it done before. The gender marker change, because prior to the gender marker change, then would have been like, oh, you can't get married because we don't believe in same sex marriage. It's like, well, you can't say same sex marriage because like that is not my, that is not the way. So, yeah, it's not real. So 2017, we have the first the ruling with the person who chose not to disclose their identity. They got their gender marker changed. And then when it came time for the public case, which is the key case. She was given a settlement out of court by the government, which means we don't have a ruling for that. And the reason they gave the settlement out of court as the government of Osana, they said, Oh, no, no, no, we're already working on these things now. It's five years later, you still need to get a court order to get your gender marker changed in what's on it. And getting a court order is not cheap. It's not easy. And you have to be in a city to do it. You can't just be in a village and like, oh, I'm writing a letter to the court. So that's one thing. Second thing is, even within the acknowledgement of trans persons in what's on it. It's really only recognized by the courts and only by certain legal practitioners based on those two cases. Nobody else exists as a trans person in the eyes of the law outside of that. And so that's part of why the, the work of, you know, initiatives such as this exists, because very often folks think that because there's been a victory of sorts at one time. It means everything is fine and nice for everyone. Just recently there was a conference that was meant to be held here in the UK called safe to be me. And again, that's, there's a reason I was asking about who is a card holding British citizen. It was meant to bring people from all across the world into the UK, and talk about LGBTQ plus people talk about human rights talk about social justice, all of those wonderful things. But one of the clauses that was moved forward excluded trans folks. And so for the first time ever organizations that are otherwise just like, oh no, well, trans issues are trans issues go there and decided to not do that anymore, because trans folks are consistently left out in the cold. And so we're always the people at the front of the line, right. It's like, oh yeah well, well now my company uses like pronouns in our signatures, guess who, guess who had to be there and abused and misgendered for that to be done. It's like, you're being gendered of us people. Like you're actually being think she her. I don't use pronouns. Okay, great, that's wonderful. It was as we were the ones who are there, getting abused, getting misgender, and getting fired. And so for that to happen. And so for once folks said, well if you're going to do this trans people then we're not going to sign on to this conference. And then organization after organization after organization, which is like, we're not coming or not doing this anymore. And the UK government was forced to cancel the conference. So if you're wondering what you can do in your various sectors to have a voice sitting silent or being present and saying, no I'm going to shatter it from within is not the way to do it. I've got a question. Let's have us know each other from. Okay, cool. No. So, let's find strangers. Let's get into groups of five, just with people around you people that you've maybe count the people. I mean, I can do it. I'm making the same groups of five. We know how many people you're very, you're capable of like getting into groups of five with people in the nearest rows to you. Yeah. Okay, so I did that. We're in the room. Yeah. So to that. Yeah. You. Yeah. You're there. Yeah. You're. Okay. So you're. Three. Next speech. There. Well, we are not. There we go. Okay, so my question is, if someone wants to take notes, that'd be great. You thought we were just going to come and listen to my speech. We will come back to that. We're just going to have a little segue in terms of deepening the tactic. Imagine it's 2050. So in. 28 years time. There is no such thing as any more or heterosexuality in the museum. It's a thing of the past. There's not every single country in the world. It's, it's legal to be queer sex work is decriminalized drugs are decriminalized. There's just a museum for colonial history. There's just a museum for heterosexual motility where people can go and learn about what it was like back, back now. So it's decriminalized across the world. So does the context make sense? Okay. So how are we going to get there? How did we get there? What are the top five? What's the roadmap? What are the top like five stages that we've needed to do from all of our geographical places in the world to, to get to that utopia? And maybe actually, maybe it might not be a utopia. You can nuance that as well. Yeah. Does that make sense? That vision. So you've got five minutes. So a minute per point. Or maybe 10 minutes. No. Dan likes to be very like, oh yeah. No. Five minutes in these five minutes. And again, you're doing like an executive strategy. Right. We found out the aliens are coming and they're going to take us away. And then when we come back, we must have a thing to like bring to the people in 28 years. So a step by step plan. Great. Grab a chair and like sit right here next to kids. That's kid. And so you will five minutes come up with five things. Somebody needs to have a pen, piece of paper, or if you're going to be like one of those people, just type it on the phone. But be Pacific. As they like to say in Merca. Right. So please be Pacific. About like what, what, what's first. What comes after that. What comes after that. What comes after that. What comes after that. And number five isn't. And it's just. Five all five. Yeah. But it is a step towards it. Me. Starting in. Five, four, three, two, one. Go. If you're going to give me wine. Thank you. Thank you. And again, they don't have to be successive. They might be that this needs to happen. This needs to happen. It doesn't have to be after this happens then. And this happens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you have a person to do it, you can, but also you can just ask a person to do it. If you have a person to do it, you can just ask a person to do it. So I know there was like a little bit of stress about all of that. I'm going to talk a little while I wait for Dan so that he can hear your responses. And when I say I'm going to talk a little, it means I'm going to give you chances to ask me questions right now while I wait for Dan. It is open and it includes you people online. Hello people. I'm available. I know I try and like play myself down a lot, but really apparently I'm a big deal. Just just a little. So ask me anything you want to ask me. How do we solve. I don't know, like, not having like seven and a half shoes in every single brand. I don't know. Stuff like that. Any questions are so nice. It feels so loaded. It feels like it feels like you're trying to like say things against other people. My name is. There are 17 letters in my surname. So don't laugh. But they are what? Yeah. 17 letters 10, like 10 syllables in there. So one is a beautiful tonal language. So. That means success. And it's therefore must be pronounced as it should be pronounced. Otherwise you're mispronouncing success. And in Susana, we have a saying that says in a little more, which means your name is your calling. So if you mispronounce my name, then that means you're mispronouncing my calling, which then means you are just cursing me. But yes, my name is that I hope I can speak. Any other questions. Yes. So, in drawing up a law for trans rights and gender non conforming persons rights for me would be not doing it. And in that I mean, I would ensure that all law is particularly accessible to trans and gender non conforming persons and non binary persons. So, at no point does a law need to be interpreted to say, Oh, but this could also mean. Right. And I know that this is so it's, it's, it sits at that strange thing with, I was talking to Dan earlier that in Eswatini the Kingdom of Eswatini, which is formally known as sparse land. The Kingdom of Eswatini has refused the registration of Eswatini sex, sex and gender minorities. ESGM, which is an organization, they refuse their registration, because they say the constitution of the country covers everyone. But of course, interpretation of the Constitution is exclusive. So for me, a law that would ensure that trans and gender diverse persons are seen are validated are protected empowered. And of course not looking at folks. I often talk about people experiencing marginality, as opposed to marginalized persons, because marginality is a thing that you are subjected to. Right. And very often you, I remember when I moved here for the first time. People kept saying, Bane, black, what is it black, black Asian and minority ethnic minority ethnic. Yes, and it's like, okay, so have you been to was one. Where's my minorities in my ethnicity because it takes time for me to find a white person to see. So, from where I am, white people are minorities. So I'm the majority. So when I come here, and then I get told I'm a minority, I'm like, who's minority. So with those sorts of things, same thing with marginality, same thing with marginalized or minority communities. When it comes time to create laws that see us, they can't be laws that are sitting alongside laws that don't see us. All of the laws must see us. That's what I would do. I would tear everything else apart, rather than introducing something here. And now Dan's here. So here we go with the report by everybody is going to report back. Mind you, you are not allowed to go into monologuing. Don't tell us why and how. And then you're going to do, and you're going to do a sentence about the thing. Yeah, you've got five points. Thing sentence. Next thing sentence. Next thing sentence everybody with me thing. Next thing. Next thing. And does anybody have a name that starts with a letter between F and M. Right. Interesting observation I'm going to make. Nobody's allowed to comment about it. We're going to move on to the next people. And Kat, while I speak, you get to pick who goes next. So one of the things that you said was very similar to what you did, where it was. You're talking about safety for trans folks or non-binary folks at border posts. And the question is like, why do we not imagine that border posts could disappear. But we move on. Who's next? No, no, you're not. No, we're not having conversation. You need to say what your group said. Do you want to say a thing about the revolutionary education? Wait, wait, you've just devoiced. I couldn't hear anything. Okay, so I'm guessing yours is more progressive. Because the borders are at the end. So media is the, what, fifth state, fourth state? As the state, I'm interested in the fact that you include media in your ideation of what must be done. As opposed to being like, well, there's social media, which means nobody really can govern it. Next, do you get to pick who goes next? We have legal reform, specifically we talked about reducing the importance of marriage as we first we could talk about involving more people in marriage, but then reducing maybe in sense, but reducing the importance of marriage that it doesn't define immigration, inheritance, et cetera. And yeah, just legal reform also around characterization that we had. It only does religious reform. But I guess it was more about separating religious status but also maybe thinking about getting rid of religion together. And we also have political reform. So thinking about states that are under dictatorships or fascistic regimes and democracy being at least the end of the world. Lastly, we did have a bit of a talk about rethinking of the electorate or rethinking like, in itself, but also the problem of Eurocentrism in how the world order is ordered. And rethinking where power is sent from and how we can, I guess, just back to that so I guess. Okay, no, I'm, it's great. One of the weird things. The split between religion and fanaticism. Because fanaticism is what causes states to split right that whole like India and Pakistan situation. That was fanaticism. It wasn't quite religious. It was fanaticism. Yes. It might be religion fueled fanaticism but still fanaticism. So the, the point where it comes back to what is, is it religion as the self is a religion as the anchor. It is a religion as the lens or the weapon. But yes, we've got one last group. Did you say you're not allowed to speak now you're looking at me I don't know. Okay, because I was going to be like, he's giving this money. Yeah. I'm not just like to say I'm not just like to add anything to that. Your sentences are so long. Yeah, just because you have three doesn't mean you can like speed and then number and then number three. You have the floor with your own personal team. Yeah, I'm just inspired by them and so then I want to speak as well. I was kind of my favorite religion, because I always find in any conversation and come across, especially in the Middle East of Africa. So with that big religious. So I'm so interested to know to hear more about how can we. And I understand that people, you know, do not disrespect the fact that people and believe, and for that baby, it's them and it's a spirituality. I think that has to be, you know, that's not what I'm talking about. I mean, the structure that they've been imposed on people and kind of values that they've been imposed on people's minds, and that has created this word that, you know, basically people have been liberated. And so it's like, you know, you're very good line from religion. And then changing, changing, changing, changing perspective, changing them social rules, but those things. Yeah, I think happen once society, people's have to think and contact somehow what's that or email or whatever you should keep in touch because collating your ideas. I don't know, call it like operation 2050 get rid of etch normativity, whatever you want to call it, like start your own group and network. That's what I did at uni when I was doing my undergraduate and master's just create the groups if they don't exist already. And the community build up. Exactly. Do it. Do it. And that's the first point. And then there might be and just to throw out there to two thoughts, right. If we want to build this global roadmap, what and we need to obviously start where we're at and dig where we stand. Just one question is like what needs to be changed at SOAS in a bigger picture. And then here we go. It was like, so much what need just to just chuck it out there. Like, if we want to create that world by 2050, give us one. I'm genuinely quite clueless about what's going on internally at SOAS now. What are the top three things that need to transform. You go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I want to question that. When you say power from below, as those from above, what does power from below look like, and we can always talk about communities must do 1234, which put burden of strategy upon communities. Right, you had a five minute exercise as a brand new community to put some things together. When you're focused on ensuring that you can afford your heat bill, the water bill, your electrical bill. Make sure that your kid gets school and doesn't get stabbed. What does that look like. It's all one and good to say the community must, but how, because they're always great to talk about the what, but we never talk about the how, and the how is the most important. We can talk about decriminalization. I'll go back to your country like I've had numerous people say to me, and you know, I love the work that you do. It's great. But please never expect to see me at any real things. But if you need the resources, you know, I'll print things for you. I will cut things for you. I will. I will do everything else, but don't expect to see me there. Right. So does that mean I have community. Does that mean I have community support. I mean, I've got financing for it. Somebody's going to print the balance. Great. But who's going to hold the balance. Anybody else with a question, question. And I know I'm not, I know, please don't get rid of me. And if I do. Tattoos. No, you know, I'm so good. I guess one last question for me is like, this is all very useful, but if you have any like, really practical questions, because I, if it wouldn't be nice when I was doing my undergraduate or my master's, which I'd like to one on how to continue being an activist, part-time, full-time activist in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Like, but if you have any like practical, like super practical questions about how cat has gone on to do all the incredible stuff that cats done. Like how you just have a sense like breaking down practical questions. Has anyone got that in terms of it could be money could be like networks in London. It could be how you do. Yeah, it will be okay. So, like a very common debate and sorry. Let me just say let me go. So, a very common debate amongst the community in South Asia is on the idea of like identity and that's like the decision with the vast identity. So for example, like, like in India, where I live as well, most chance people are people in the community, they don't have access to citizenship like legal citizenship. I need parties. And the common sort of debate there is that some people would prefer to avoid it because while you do get access, when you get access to citizenship, you do get access to benefit that you deserve. But also, if it means that you come under surveillance, it means that you can be recorded. And that's also like how to do the mental. So, in terms of like finding for these rights, which one should be fighting for is that very common sort of thing that people come to show you know what you're talking about. So it's very interesting. One of the things that I within my scholarship and write about is the difference between citizen hoods and citizenship. Right. So citizen hood is, do you feel as though you are seen, and you are able to move without restriction within just that country. Then when it comes to issues of citizenship, it is what, what does your citizen hood afford you should you then start meddling with other countries. I would to, for example, Sierra Leone is one of the countries that has inherited a very, very aggressive penal code. In Sierra Leone, you can get arrested upon suspicion. Right. You don't actually do anything, but upon suspicion. So you walk in, you bought earrings that I like. And then I'm like, Oh, hey, where'd you get those earrings? Then, like, you don't tell me. I feel like I think that person's a lesbian. And the police don't need anything else. Except for the fact that I just said, I think you're a lesbian. And because I think you're, surely you're a lesbian. And if you're not, you have to prove that you're not a lesbian. Therefore, we'll take you to jail. And until you prove to us that you're not a lesbian. Right. And so, when it comes to being seen by the state, as a trans-identified model, and I told you already that we are still struggling to get documents changed, gender marks changed, never mind access to any sort of healthcare situations, because again, it involves on its universal healthcare. Everybody has access to healthcare, except trans people don't have access to trans-affirming healthcare. So we see their name, right. So everybody has access to healthcare, but as a trans person, you don't have access to the healthcare that is directed to your particular needs. So when it comes to that situation of are you documented or are you not documented? If you're not documented, what are the things that you then don't get access to? For a lot of people, the things you don't get access to end up overpowering the things you do get access to as an undocumented person within your country. So it's a personal choice, but essentially, if you're not planning on traveling, which again, travel should never be the reason why you engage with certain systems. But without those things, you're not going to be able to access some of the things that folks like me are advocating more for us. So as much as I can advocate trans folks to get access to trans-inclusive healthcare, to say to the healthcare system, like, make sure that when there's a testosterone shortage globally, because again, this happened, I don't know if anybody knows this, how many people knew that there was a testosterone shortage across the world. Hands up high. I don't even like small hands, big hands, big hands, all the way up, all the way up. Even if you didn't shake your hand but show it, like me, show it, show it, show it, show it. How many people knew? Okay, cool. So there's been a whole testosterone shortage across the world, right? And the reason for that is because Pfizer was busy making COVID vaccines. Now, we hate Pfizer, like they left like trans men and people who needed testosterone just like in the cold. Or do we say, no, great, you saved my family's life. And it's very easy for folks to be like, oh, no, no, no, no, actually, you're busy making a vaccine. We got vaccinated. We're still alive. We're good. But the fact is, even I as a trans masculine person who got the vaccine still needed my testosterone. So it's like, which one of the two do you go for? Okay, so things like that. We cannot advocate for access to things if folks are not there to be known as meaning access. So that has to be a best choice. Yeah. Yeah. What is your question? I am curious about your experience. So, could you talk to me about how your trans identity intersects with the community of black African advocating in the first world? How do those things interact? Like what are the differences between your experience and someone else who maybe is a hard-working British white person? How do you think that those bad experiences differ in how they interact in your life? Thanks for that question. Seeing as a black history man. Yeah, a black history man. And unfortunately in Africa, we can't have black history men because... It is a bit... Yeah. So it's been very, very, I don't want to call it weird, but the mere fact of the matter is I am a person born in France. France used to actually just be a rarely post, so it wasn't a city. And then it became, well, on a obscure second city. But growing up in that obscure second city, I was... You've been to France now. Yeah. I thought it was Eagle. So growing up there, but still not necessarily getting what a lot of people think of as the black experience. Right. So it's like, okay, grew up with the television in the house, pay tennis, competitively, pay chess, competitively. And not as like an out-of-school program, not as to keep me off the streets. It was go and compete in tennis, go and compete in chess, go and compete in swimming. So those sorts of sets of privilege, I had to start making sense of much later in life. And more so when I moved to South Africa, because South Africa has such a polarized relationship between what you can afford and what your skin is and your culture and your language and your percentage and all these other things. And I was like, well, I'm normal science, I'm a speaker, and I also have a bit of a triangle. All of these things are happening, but I'm not kind of the white. So just because I listen to Fallout Boy, it doesn't mean I don't believe in blackness. So there was that, that preempted me entering world politics. So by the time the world politics came to be, I'm saying good, I'm still a person in the world. I have access to my kin, my siblings, my cousins who experience the black experience. And because of that, I'm able then to know that some of this isn't about like, oh, I'm doing it for me. I'm doing it for my nieces, I'm doing it for my nephews, I'm doing it for my cousins. Because I know that should they ever need this, the way needs to be made. It can't be, oh, well then they're going to have to do it for themselves. So the diplomatic speak, even when I'm doing my diplomatic speak, I am bringing the fact that I can do this, but I'm also very confident that there's somebody who's not going to be able to do this. And I'm speaking for myself and expressing what I hope they would want to say. I'm not going to say I'm speaking on their behalf because I know they can't ever do that. It would be absolutely false if somebody could think that they could speak on my behalf. So why would I think that I can speak on anybody else's behalf. So yeah, that's how it's been moving. Have I finished answering the question or is it still a little bit more interesting? Because when it comes to, you know, sitting with heads of states, representatives of states, those are spaces that you get afforded. They're not a day to day. You get afforded the opportunity. I remember, okay, I'm going to finish the first part and then I'll tell you the other thing. So you get afforded this opportunity, right? So we were, we were meeting with a certain state that we were trying to get into a partnership to go. And it was a whole policy, high level, high level. And this is the reason I can't tell you which state it is or where we were meeting. But we're trying to get this stage to join a small, very special group. And of course, while we're having this meeting, we must panda to them before we start making our demands. And me being catch and saying, we ain't got time. I was like, cool, you did really great. But, and then I went in with all of the, you didn't do this well, you didn't do this well, you didn't do this well, these are opportunities, these are opportunities, these are opportunities. And I wasn't saying you're doing terribly, but I was saying, here are your opportunities. And after the meeting, the people who are very well versed in that. Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for having us and we're so grateful that you were doing such a wonderful job. And we know it's really difficult and you, we've seen the efforts that you've been putting in. And I think I'll tell you the opportunities, take them, don't take them. That's a new thing, it's not a new thing. Those people then said to me, that you did well to get the meeting done in the period of time that we had, because then you've been told you've got 10 minutes. So what am I going to do? Like send 10 minutes, like telling you how wonderful you are. No, I'm going to do two minutes to be like, oh great, go. Because we've got five minutes of us telling you what we need. And then it may be two and a half minutes of you responding. And when your fund has anybody ever sat with a diplomat in a room, had a client diplomats be like this. You know, thank you so much for being here. And we appreciate the work that you're doing. And as the entity that we are, we are always so proud and encouraged and inspired by people. Right, so they'll take two minutes just saying the, oh yeah, well, you know, we're happy that you're here. I knew that we didn't have time. And I got scolded by the people who know how to do that. Yes, it's so wonderful. It's so wonderful. It's so great. Because I went straight to the point. And of course, it's very difficult to think about whether or not you go straight to the point, or you then say, no, we played the long game. The long game is hoping that you'll be proposed to when you've already bought the ring. And it's pointless. But with that, there was also a moment I ended up sitting next to like the Crown Prince of Norway or something. Many years ago. But I'm sitting next to this person. And we're having this chat, beautiful chat. About things we care about about changes we want to see happen in the world. And I didn't know that they were part of the royal family. But they are. And then I also didn't know that they were the person while one of the two people who was going to be leading the discussion we were about to get into. And then when we get into the discussion, they're referencing the conversation we had. So it's very easy to think, no, I will know when the moment of importance is. But the fact is, you'll be sitting next to some blonde person wearing like a blue shirt and jeans. And they've got more power than somebody who's going to walk in with an entourage with briefcases. And you always have to schedule time to sit with them. So never think you know when the moment of importance is. Just go. And don't almost yourself. Just say it. Say it if they don't take it. It's a them thing, not a you thing. Any questions? Yes. So much. Sorry. 16. Six years. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So the UK is still a country that criminalizes sex work, you know this, right? Yeah. But the weird thing with the UK and its criminalization of sex work is that it's not that sex work is criminal. It's just that. It's just the orchestration of sex work. So I don't know if people know this, but you can be a sex worker but as if two sex workers live in the same premises then it's considered for brothel and brothels are illegal. So sex work is legal but brothels are illegal. So now you're basically not allowed to have anyone as security. So that's one of the weird things about where you are right now. But the thing that you can do for the community and with the community is the very thing that we always say with regards to like folks who are allies who are just like well what can I do for like for the community. It's like, just don't think you're going to save the community. They just firstly, nobody needs you're saving. Folks are doing what they do, how they do it. The most important thing is assisting them to get what they want. So whether it is access to legal counsel while you're here. That's great. So you can find and create networks of people who are willing to provide pro bono or whatever kind of legal counsel for sex workers in China and to say China and Japan. Okay, cool. So Thailand Japan, finding legal counsel that is willing and able to do the work there. Right, because it's all one good for them be to be like allowed to practice in the UK but it's not the thing. If it means creating relationships between firms where you might think that there's more expertise here and somebody who can actually go to court in Thailand or in Japan to do that. That's fine. It's a little bit colonial, but at least it's, it's something right. I think nobody really needs to be extradited to come and do sex work in a foreign country because who says they don't want to see their favorite nieces or nephews or cousins or go to their favorite peak. I might just not want to leave the country simply because there's a person who makes the best pancakes down the road. And I'm not willing to give up those pancakes just so that I don't have to run away from the cops. Right. You need to Firstly, let go of any guilt you feel about the fact that you're here. They assisted you. One of their products. Your job now is to continue the work. I wouldn't have invested in you if they didn't believe in you. So they've done the investment, give them the return on investment, and that return on investment is getting what you came for and then continue the work. Thank you so much Kat for inspiring us as ever.