 So I suppose what interests me about this panel is that in their professional life and in their personal life They've interacted with the business of upgrading building stock Creating the business case. I suppose with their significant others as well as with their other significant others So I'm Brian seeing is your closest me. I'd start with you and I suppose tell us about your personal journey through your upgrade to start Yeah, I bought a house in 1919 Sorry early 2000 we moved house from a small three-bed. We had a growing family Out to a bigger home at the time was a built in 19 late 1960s. It was a still had kerosene boiler in the home little boiler room off off the back of the kitchen that when you went into was just like a black hole and So you one can imagine what was what else was around the house that you couldn't see We subsequently then decided to do a renovation a kind of generational renovation of the house Would have transitioned to gas at that time thought we had done a very good job in terms of the standards we had applied at the time in terms of dry lining insulation of an extension etc Underfloor heating etc. So he'd done a lot of very good work Then in 2015 and I suppose in the context of my professional activities I came across Paul Kenny from Tipper A RNG agency at the time was Was pioneering kind of deep retrofit in terms of what we needed to do our homes I suppose is very difficult in the role. I was in to resist the convincing So what we did then at that stage was to transition away from gas to a heat pump But part of that that journey involved quite a bit of work around addressing some of the quality issues that existed in terms of the work We've done previously primarily air tightness We did an air tightness test on the house and we were losing 15 15 air changes per hour was the measurement at the time The work we got done which primarily was was very manual in terms of insulation sealing of attic doors Sealing of doors etc. Got us down to five air changes per hour combine that with a demand control ventilation system Because at the time we had observed Mold and moisture becoming very apparent in tricking in one shower room despite the fact that we had we had what to call natural ventilation at the time And so put in a demand control ventilation system to address that so I mean with literally within within I'd say a week or two of that going in and having obviously we'd painted up the airs We've done some work to like we're here now four or five years later And there's not a sign of any mold or any condensation in any of the rooms and effect just the general air quality in the house There's been a kind of a significant improvement But I suppose that mean the challenges at the time we obviously the work It's we were looking up that we could stay in the home because we had the main main issues for us was drilling of a couple of The walls for the piping for the demand control ventilation a bit of a lot of work in the utility room to integrate the heat pump But I think overall it was a very positive experience and one that I think Once you go through the the genuinely you're gonna ask the question later once you go through the bit of getting it done Yeah, once you experience it it's been very positive and certainly I think overall my wife who necessarily wasn't necessarily you know pushing to To go to move away from from from gas. We had a lovely gas fire that she was very disappointed to lose Loved her climate for turning the heating on and off When she was coming home for work, etc. So I think but overall we've got got accustomed to to the to how we how we manage the house And overall a very very positive experience Great, and Ali do you want to give us an outline of? Your own journey. Yeah, so and we're a young ish family and from Kildare And we were looking to settle back in minute after being abroad for a few years Ideally the plan of the time have been to try and find a turnkey a rated home That was in line with our values and what we wanted for a home And but with the market availability and cost they became limitations So we started to look at plan B and look at your uppers in the area So we found a home that ticked all the other boxes besides efficiency in terms of location and potential But it was a let's say under loved to say the least at the time So then haven't been on oil. We started to initially look at the gas option and just one of those nuances in Infrastructure our estate actually every only second cul-de-sac has gas possibility and unfortunately I wouldn't have one but then that started to get the mind thinking about what's what could be next and deep retrofit Started to be talked about him again having known super homes and Paul and it was really an interesting option for us And at the time so yeah, we embarked on the process to bring the house, which was a D tree It's about 25 years old Achieved an A to and I'm sure you'll share the stress of the day The test goes through and the kind of priority get when it achieves the house But it was a it was a great experience. I know I'll discuss the detail over in a moment But for us it was very important that we were able as a family to To live our values in our home life and that that option of deep retrofit With the super homes program and the grants made that a possibility so we're in the home now just under a year and still figuring it out Still trying to and get used to what is a different way of living in terms of heating a very pleasant way of living but different And so yeah, really interested now to see what this winter will bring in terms of performance as well Great Mike do you want to give us part of your story? Yeah? I mean look, I'm principal of Goethe and Agricultural College in Tipperary at least I'm retiring principal of Goethe College in Tipperary and Really the kickstart for Goethe was the crash of the Celtic Tiger Because when the Celtic Tiger crashed we were a small private agricultural college with lots going on But the government basically turned around was at that time and said you're gonna get a hundred grand a year less money than you used to get to run the education and We looked at our non farming bills. We did something with the family we looked our non farming bills now were two biggest bills by far were heat and electricity and When we were burning peat through an old peat burning boiler and you're looking at it like end of life And you're first into a bill of a hundred grand for oil Place it with straight oil boilers We started fairly quickly investigating biomass boilers and biomass boilers led to looking at actually growing fuel on site with Willow And we now produce about 80% of our heat from the Willow field Costs us now about five grand a year to dry it and five grand to harvest it And we then top up with about 10 grand with a timber so our fuel bill now is about 20 grand Saved us some money that the government had taken off in the first place We also at the time looked at electricity and investigated Wind turbines we investigated solar panels at the time wind was the right thing to do small Wind turbine 50 kilowatt wind turbine putting But again Tiberary engines you were mentioned earlier. They've been great friends of mine. They came along with Potential energy efficiency because somebody said to me when I first started looking it's been mentioned several times today Look at how you can reduce before you look at how you can produce differently. And so good team was in this position in 2009 with a 1960s built concrete slab of a building with no insulation Old buildings other things so we literally just did what we could in terms of insulation around the place To reduce the heat bill Silly things at the time like somebody came along and said how do we reduce electricity in terms of lighting? We took out half the fluorescent tubes in the college because we didn't need them all When you actually measured looks levels so we did that Said serve grant appeared through Tiberary engines you which made it possible for us to do this and Then more recent days We got towards the end of the 2000s again the next round of energy efficiency came in we found some more again Grant driven because it makes sense I think that was the thing for us that we have to make the bills meet at the end of the day and so there's been Investments in solar PV panels now. We've changed all the lighting in the college to LED lighting Because in 2009 LEDs didn't work We put we piloted three or four LED floodlights in 2009 and they just weren't good enough then around for safety But they work and LEDs across the college now We've built a new milking parlor again looking to save energy with variable speed pumps the heating systems all have variable speed pumps So you're all the time trying to reduce the energy bill where you can and then save in other areas I think I think what's notable here is in your story Mike the the First domino to fall was a hard-budget constraint Sorry, but that was a hard-budget constraint someone said you will not have that budget next year Yeah, I'd like to explore just because it's both residential with with Ali and yourself Brian Ali perhaps first and You bought as you said yourself a doer upper Yeah, and you thought as I'm doing this up I could go a little bit further in your case Brian You had done some work and then more recently you decided to shift to a decarbonized heating system So from that gas border to an electric border and What was your nudge when you did that so you were going to do up your home Ali What made you think actually I can do something more so for Mike that first domino was a hard-budget constraint for you What was that little piece that said I'm now going to look into this and take it seriously and then Brian a similar question to you Yeah I mean besides from obviously the values and ideals drove up with the practicalities had to line up and for that The level of work we needed to do to the house regardless of energy efficiency to make it livable and comfortable for the family Involved pretty much gutting it anyway, and it was going to be unlivable for the few months So at that stage to the option of super homes and the level of work They needed to be completed slotted in as a feasible option for us, you know If we've been living in the home We had to do that level of demolition and rebuild at the time I'm not sure we would have been able to be able to carry that out So they kind of lined up for us like that as well And then miss will be fully honest and be transparent to the process with the banks They were very good with us in terms of mortgage and everything like that So we got a stay on the mortgage to start repayments until we were in the house as well And again that comes to the budget on what was feasible for us So it was those kind of range of things that lined up and that put it on the table Yeah I think timeliness becomes very important even if you look at the UK They're looking at a specific in sentence aligned to stamp duty Yeah If you bring your home up that decarbonization ladder You can get a specific accommodation there because you might be upgrading your home at the time of home change I think it's something to keep in mind here We could also align it to mortgages or green mortgage packages Brian yourself Yeah to my suppose look I mean to be perfectly honest about it I mean in the business and then in the role I was in I had spent maybe 18 months or two years Looking at this as you know a lot of work I'm going on with an ESP around looking at the decarbonization Carbonization journey what we needed to do as a business and obviously Looking at the heating sector in particular, you know, we had identified Technologies that existed that could facilitate a more a more a deeper decarbonization at the home. So It's easy. It's easy You know sitting job and talk about it and go out and tell people it's a great idea I think you need to put your hand in your pocket yourself And I was lucky in that I wasn't you know because we had done a job prior to that We were probably at a b3 at that stage The the depth of my pockets didn't be as deep as others have had to go to in terms of what they're trying to do So it was an overall 18,000 euro kind of investment Which was supported by the BC scheme the same of about 30 percent of that 35 percent of that cost so But again, it probably was it was a little bit of a leap of faith in the context that it wasn't something You know we were looking to do and I thought it was only as you start to To explore what's going on what are the drivers can consider your own behaviors and what's going on in your house Looking at your bills in a bit more detail You realize that there is scope to benefit and happy to say that next month that I've paid the last Retainment on my on my loan from the credit union. So You know, it's it's a relatively short payback. We've definitely seen benefits in our in our energy in our energy bills But I think more importantly just in terms of how the house feels I think just You know, you I know it's maybe going back to Ronald's comment earlier about you know, we wouldn't know what temperatures are outside You know in reality. So in our house, we have a whatever our comfort level is around 2021. We would Ronald would be delighted to hear we do pull the temperatures down at night because we don't need the same temperature upstairs We're not even tucked up in bed, but you can manage the environment very well. So I think it's it's something You know, I'd admit I did because of that the role I was in but certainly having haven't experienced it I think I would I'd be very quick to recommend it, you know, great And just a sort of final round of questions for you. I'll start with you Mike in terms of the journey you went on We tend to and even state agency sometimes tends to speak to the positive case study and the seven things that went brilliantly Well for all of the people who engaged in a program What were the speed bumps or the bullets that were just dodged along the way? Yeah Well, I mean, there's there's two major speed bumps that we've had And one I don't whether we've dodged it or we're working through it We bought a wind turbine from a company in Canada very reputable that went bankrupt the company that took over the company went bankrupt It's just hard work getting spare parts to keep it moving at the moment So, you know, but you do all your research you get what you want and you know, we'll get there with that The other biggest speed bump everybody thinks insulation is wonderful And we had an old 1960s built building that has a foot thick concrete slab roof and In history the roof got lovely and warm with the heat that went up to it and it was never a problem We had to use a bagged insulation between the suspended ceiling and the roof Because it was the only way it could be done because those are sorts of services in there that we might need to get to We got all the bags of insulation up there We thought we'd done a wonderful job and three months later what it's that he pouring through the ceilings Where small amounts of heat had now got up to a cold concrete slab and condensed and water was pouring down through the ceiling So that was quite a major speed bump that was actually relatively simply solved We couldn't put any more insulation in so we had to get ventilation above the insulation Which meant somebody spending a long time drilling four inch cores through a ring beam But look by the fire so it was a major speed bump at the time and as the boss man You suddenly said I think what on earth have I done? But you get through it and you look back now And you say that the college is now on its heating bills been saving well at oil prices of $80 a barrel We've been saving 80 grand a year for nine years And if oil went up to 160 dollars a barrel, we'd be saving 160 grand a year and it's there for the next 20 years So speed bumps are there things happen, but you have to have the determination to say right What's the solution rather than what it doesn't work? I think that's it Allie or Brian any personal thoughts? Yeah, I think we were kind of gluten for punishment in addition to the deep retrofit We changed the layer of the house as well in the doing and Probably was very naive in terms of timelines and mock-up be achieved So there was a bit of pressure on site with the different elements trying to get a completed for the timelines And the grants and sometimes when you've got like anything different parties working together and trying to manage the communication You know, I remember coming home one day and there was a window in the wrong wall and just trying to manage all that and work around it To make sure you're still hitting the deadlines But yeah, they're workable true and it's just I suppose being realistic about The timelines and the expectation and that's definitely a lesson learned for me anyway. Yeah Yeah, it's a it's kind of two things really one one I think allie just touching the bear this when you're dealing with multi trades just the coordination of the work in the home Can be can be challenging at times Obviously when you're doing it when you're trying to have a normal family life as well and they're Using concrete cells to take out holes for holes in your walls, etc. A lot of dust around the place So probably that even though it was not as Inconvenient as in others have been through but certainly that just that kind of the nature of not fully understanding What's gonna happen when it's on and then realizing it's actually a little bit more inconvenient than you thought And the second thing was more practical issue. Obviously we had installed under floor heating Downstairs and and we had two zones downstairs We hit some rads for the sitting room and we had under floor for the kitchen in the hall And I suppose what one of the what happened was we there's a new controller for the heat pump went into the kitchen and has a built-in thermostat And I remember coming home one evening in the place was feeling fierce cold and what's going on here? And I looked and I discovered that my wife had lit a candle and On on a sideboard literally underneath the thermostat so that there had never been a thermostat before so now is a flame Under the So the thing never never thought the place is cold You know so so simple things that you remember look even the location of thermostats is really important as well You forget we've a lot of glazing at the back of the house that you there's a the temperature kind of gradient from the The hot wall down to the glazing so you need to find a place to put your thermostat that actually reflects the temperature at the You know at the least warm place So they're there the kind of practical things when you're in it because we were lucky that we didn't have a lot of other We weren't doing anything else to the house other than purely the change of heating system the DCV and obviously the LED lighting and stuff Which was relatively painless anyway, you know, I think I think some of the points being made reflect on what Roger also stated where Through through behavior of the change we can reduce our CO2 impact today tomorrow on the walk home And but after we use some of these measures and technologies there also is a behavioral change So it is only as smart a technology as we make it at the end of the day And I think I think we all need to recognize that I had Luke give me the signal for five minutes about five minutes ago I'm just wondering am I? Okay, right So I think we're going to wrap up unless there was anything more that any of you would like to say in terms of burning issues Or that we haven't covered No, I think just one of the just to pick up on one thing that I think the Ronald said about the importance of ensuring that our Suppose we continue to build what we're building now. It's important that it's future proof for 2050 So I think there's a huge challenge there and it has been very positive developments and the building regs in Ireland particular I think they are a Good bit ahead of our some of our European neighbors, but I think there's a bit more we can do there To to to carbonize further so I think I think building with the new buildings I think it's a huge opportunity for our to embrace that well said I know we've lost to think about on the back of them Ronald's presentation But even when you were talking earlier about how do we get this at scale? There's nothing better than a good example, and I've even seen from my own cul-de-sac My neighbors has been a great way to meet them just genuinely Interested in the technology wanting to feel it touch us see the data and now having those conversations at home So well, yes, we're going to scale. I think there those one-off houses I hope we'll have had value and to show what's possible And again just to show people what what they're likely like in their house. That's great I'd just like to thank our panellists Brian Ali and Mike for their time and hope you had some value out of the session