 everybody. We are live for a new episode of This Week in Science. We have our guest, Dr. Jessica Hebert. And oh my goodness, it's going to be such a fun time. Remember, right now, yes, I'm going to introduce you really later, like really introduce you. But right now is the pre-show that gets edited out because they want to let everyone know who's watching live. This is a recording where we livestream to make the podcast. So if there are bleeps and bloops and blarps, and stuff, then those get edited out. And the podcast is the nice edited version. Everything else is live and real. And now, when we're doing it. So press the likes, the subscribes, do the shares. Now is the time to get that going for all the algorithms and everything. And we're ready to start the show. Yeah. Yes. Okay. I hear this. So we are beginning the show in three, two, this is twist. This week in science episode number 964 recorded on Wednesday, March 20th, 2024. Is Earth the plastic placenta planet? Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Gigi. And tonight on the show, we will fill your head with potentials, placentas, and hair. But first, disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer. Earth, Gaia, mother, home on the planetary crust, so much life does Rome, surviving or dying, rare existence or thriving, connected by the fact that this rocky raft hurtling through space is the only place where you can find this week in science. Coming up next. Got the kind of mine that can't get enough. I wanna let it happen every day of the week. There's only one place to go to find the knowledge I seek. Good science, everyone. And welcome to another episode of This Week in Science. I'm so excited to have you all here. Thank you for joining us. We have a great show ahead. And on tonight's show, I am joined by the amazing, incredible, hardworking, just multi-talented, so cool Dr. Jessica Hebert, a placental biologist who works at Oregon Health and Science University here in Portland, Oregon, and who has joined us on twists on a few previous occasions. Sharing both science and music. You do both. You do lots of things. Hi, Twizz. It's good to be back. It's why I know all the words to the theme song because my band, the PDX Broadsides, played all of the music when we did the live show at Alberta Rose. Pre-pandemic. Oh, my gosh. I was a minute ago, but my band, Christian, still pulls out Blair's Animal Corner in rehearsal, basically, once a month going, this is the ish. So we're... It's so good, isn't it? It's great. All of it is super fun. And I'm really glad to be back. So hi, Twizz. Hi. Thank you so much for joining me and everyone here tonight. I mean, we get a chance to chat with you and talk about science and so much good stuff. I want to let everyone know I have a bunch of stories about some earthy kind of things, plastic kind of things, baby things, hair things, blood things, blood in space. What's that all about? And then we're going to talk about placentas and a lot of other cool things. And so I hope everyone's ready for that. Are you ready, Jessica? I feel ready. I feel like you've got it covered. Also, as we jump into the show, I would love to remind you that Twizz records live weekly on Wednesdays, 8 p.m. Pacific time on Twitch, Facebook and YouTube. You can look for this week in science to subscribe to us on those channels or on any podcast platform to get the edited version of the show. And we are on social media. Look for Twizz Science, a variety of places. I think we're Twizz Science on Twitch too, but go to twizz.org if you want the general info and show notes and all sorts of other stuff. That's the main place to go. But now, it's time for the science. I try to make it like a big, exciting thing, like science, you know, whatever. Sometimes. Science! Very good. Little resonance and vibrato. We'll add the reverb in post. It'll be great. More reverb! Please! Just don't use the artificial reverb thing because that's, you know, then you're like a pop star. Okay, Earth Day's Cubic. April 22nd, annually is Earth Day. So that's going to be in a couple of days. And I just wanted to start the show with the reminder that as much as we talk about climate science and issues related to climate change here on the show to let everybody know, you know, what's happening and what researchers understand about climate change. Humans are having a planetary impact, but we also have technology that can assist us in reducing our planetary impact. And that's where I like to start, like, like to keep my brain, these optimistic solutions-based thoughts, right? So I think like back in February, Oregon State University researchers reported on some carbon capture technology they'd been working on with Vanadium, an element that they were able to use very well. And like nickel and other similar elements didn't work the same way to take carbon out of the atmosphere. That's not this week in science, but it's happening. And the this is research that's been going on for a while. And it's just nice to know that there is progress being made. So I think that is one important point research progresses. And we are getting to points where this engineering and the technology are starting to work a little bit. But how many batteries do you have or have you used in devices in your life, Jess? In my life? Oh, just, I mean, now in your house, like you have a child. How many battery-operated things? How many batteries have I had to keep away from my child in the last few? Well, I mean- How many of them are recyclable? Some of them, a few of them, or at least rechargeable. But normally I take my batteries and I take that we have like a battery disposal bucket in the lab, and that's where the batteries go. The batteries and the chemicals, the elements, the compounds that are involved in them sometimes are toxic, cannot be just put into the ground or just thrown in the garbage that need to be remediated. Lithium ion batteries, well known for historically starting fires in people's laptops and other if not paid attention to appropriately. I had a laptop at one point where the battery started to swell so much that the the case of the laptop actually broke. Yeah, that's right for a new laptop. Yeah, yeah, I had obviously had not paid enough attention to that laptop in a while. Lithium ion batteries are going to be used for a very long time. They're being used in cars with Teslas and other vehicles for electrical power. They're being used in laptops, in all sorts of devices, and these are the rechargeable batteries. But at a certain point they reach end of life because at the electrodes there's a chemical reaction that begins that starts to crystallize. There's like these fibers that start to weave and grow within the battery itself. And so those fibers take away the ability of the battery to have a higher efficiency. So how do we get better rechargeable batteries? How do we take the batteries like lithium ion batteries when they've reached end of life and then potentially recycle of them? Can we do that? Right now the process is it involves taking the batteries apart, separating all the parts, and then putting them back together in different ways. So there's a lot of dismantling. There's a high environmental impact. There's all sorts of stuff going on. A lot of energy involved. It sounds very expensive. So it's probably people don't want to do it because it costs money. Yeah. And is there a way to do it better? Could we? Could we do it better? Well, researchers just published in Juul, which is a wonderful name for a journal. Their work, looking at these lithium ion batteries and developing a method to recycle them more effectively and efficiently. And in their process, they have a recovery reagent that is injected into the batteries. So the batteries don't have to be dismantled. Nothing has to be taken apart. And this this reagent reduces electrons in the carrier lithium ions and it controls a whole bunch of things. So those fibers go away and the batteries get better. Capacity is improved and everything's happy. Lithium ion batteries can then be returned to the world of use without all of the energy. It looked like in this paper as well that if for some reason the lithium battery itself couldn't be restored fully, they could at least still use a lot of the parts of it in order to make another battery. So there's still kind of that ease of recycling. And I think that's one of the big points here is that we as we move forward, resources are limited, right? We just discovered, hey, huge lithium mine in Oregon, that's awesome. But still, these are all limited resources until we start mining off earth, which of course is a plan by the new space movement. But we have to manage what we've got, not destroy ecosystems, use energy efficiently, make sure that things are sustainable, like how do we move forward with a cradle to grave ethos? And I am excited about this particular study because I think it really hits on that. It's the what they say in the end of their summary. It's expected to achieve the shortest route in battery regeneration and provide new options for circular battery systems. So cool. Yeah, your batteries don't have to just they don't disappear. They're going to be part of a cycle and you can but of course that takes teaching people about all that kind of stuff. But anyway, you have felt bad about your swollen laptop battery this whole time, haven't you? I have. Why didn't I pay more attention? Okay, Earth Day also, let's talk about plastics. Plastics have been on people's minds for a while. We're finding them everywhere. Microplastics, macroplastics, people are trying to clean them up in the rivers, the oceans, all over the place. And a United Nations program called the Plastic Chem Project reported, this is out of Norway, NTNU Trondheim, the state of the science and plastic chemicals. And they've been trying to identify and address chemicals of concern. Previously, they had identified about 13,000 chemicals. And now they added more to the list. There's 16,000. Yay. It's incredible. 1,000 more chemicals. Yeah. So chemicals in plastics, we know plastics themselves can be physically an issue for wildlife and ecosystems, but then these chemicals that are attached to the plastics in the production process, there are a lot of them that are really not good for the environment or humans. So we need to really think about what they are, how do we deal with them, and how do we move forward, because we're still producing about 400 million tons of plastic waste every year. That's a lot. Yeah. So anyway, talking about life cycles of batteries, life cycles of plastics are really important. And I am sure you have some thoughts about this. How long it takes for plastics to break down? We also think about microplastics in the water and how they build up in the body. So in different organs, if they're connected to endocrine disruption, and endocrine disruption is a big deal when you're talking about reproduction or fertility or healthy pregnancies. So yeah, I think about microplastics more frequently than your average bear. Yeah. And there's been so much news recently about microplastics being found in placentas, in blood, in all over various human tissues. There was also involved in this plastic report. There are some 68 or 69 forever chemicals that are also involved in the plastics industry that are forever chemicals. They don't go away. They're not going to break down. A lot of these chemicals of the 16,000 that they've identified do potentially break down over time or get used in some way and aren't necessarily dangerous forever. Studying plastics is one of those really cool things because we have such a limited environmental scope, like a time scope to understand what they can do to humans and to our environment. So that's why places that have environmental health and occupational studies are so important to help us get to the heart of what do we really get affected by long term. And of course, removing microplastics seemed like a really good idea, but the science horse is kind of out of the science stable on that one, I think. And then really, like how? The microplastics are micro many times because they've broken down. They've been reduced there at this point where they're hard to filter out and they pose a challenge. Yeah. I think it was in this paper, they talked about how you couldn't see it under a microscope and you have to do a lot of very sensitive. They did what? Suponification in order to see it. Yes, science horse. If I had a science horse, its name would be Archimedes, or Archimedes the Wonder Horse. One day I will be rich enough to have a science pony, but not today. And I have a story to tell you about my science horse. Good. It fits this whole pony's horse. Yes, okay. This is why we get along because we dream of science horses. It's tangential, but okay. Science horses moving away from plastics and chemicals in the environment. Let's talk about infertility. This is a place you dwell in regularly. Yeah. Yes. And this research actually comes out of OHSU. And it is a process that's a technique to treat infertility, not within the person's body, but by taking a skin cell. And unlike the dolly, the sheep stuff years ago where they cloned the sheep to create a new baby sheep, in this case, they have used nuclear transfer technology. So they take the nucleus out of a skin cell and then put it into another cell and another donated egg where the nucleus has been removed. It's very similar to these techniques that are like the three parent technologies to get past mitochondrial diseases that have been okayed in the UK and some other countries. But in this particular case, instead of reverting a skin cell to an embryonic state or to a state where it can become haploid egg cell, they just go, hey, we're going to give you a new nucleus, little egg cell. And then we're going to tell you you don't want to be deployed anymore. So maybe get rid of some of those chromosomes. I love this press release. It's because they coaxed these cells into becoming egg cells, to becoming haploid, coaxed them. Because this work happened at OHSU, I can tell you that if any lab was going to coax chromosomes to go away, it would be Dr. Metallipov's lab. They've been working on this technique for a very long time. And you would be right. Yeah. How absolutely crazy and very cool is that to be able to basically reduce the chance of rejection, reprogram somebody's own cells to become a myotic copy of themselves, basically. But in the case, yeah, a myotic copy. So it's not cloning. It's not saying it is a cell that is a copy of yours, and it's just going to be impacted by some epigenetics and environmental stuff. In this case, it's half of your chromosomes in the appropriate way so that it can combine with a sperm cell from a partner. Yeah. That's the difference between Dolly and this is that they're still using IVF to combine it with sperm. How cool. Yeah. And it is cool. I think it's very neat. It's an alternative to some of the in vitro comedogenesis with reprogramming that other people are trying. But let me say this is not in humans. This is mice. This is a mouse study. This is very early stages, mouse oocytes. And there's a lot more work that needs to be done before this turns into anything that can be used by humans. As a researcher, how long, with a lot of these things, there's so many techniques that are like, oh, we did it in mice. And how many have you seen or known to come to fruition? I mean, how much time you got? Like, lots of them. And sometimes mice are, you would think mouse, what is, is that actually a useful model? Yeah, sometimes mice are a great model. I mean, for pregnancy, for a lot of the things that I want to look at, like placental function, they're great. But for other things, like overall brain development might not be necessarily the same. Interventions are harder because they have shorter life spans and shorter pregnancy spans. But lots of things that have started in mouse have gone to human. And Matalapob's lab has done human embryo work as well. Yeah. So I think Matalapob has done some really incredible, that lab does really incredible work, actually. Yeah. So I think it's possible, but what really helps is if there's already kind of a foothold to get there. So if somebody's already tried something similar in pigs or rhesus macaques, then it makes the translation go so much faster. And more and more, it's less like we're reinventing the wheel and we're just, you know, taking the steps that were laid before us and we're, we're building on what's been there. So it gets a little easier every time to do that sort of translational work. And I think that's really, you know, the really important aspect of this is that, you know, there is no like one end in sight. It's all a continuum, understanding the research that's come before and how you can use it, how you can base your work on it, how you can take it in a different direction or combine it with different techniques and do, you know, find new ways to approach a problem. That's a joy of collaboration. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Collaborate. Learn not to hate. Okay. Oh, it's that. Yeah. All right. New story also. Let's talk about where hair came from. Where'd hair come from, everybody? Hair. It's made of keratin. Keratin is important for things like skin, nails, and hair. And keratin started somewhere. Where the heck did it start? What genes were important in allowing keratin to develop into things like claws versus hair? Researchers just published in Nature Communications their study of frogs. Well, because model species are fantastic. So of course, we're going to study hair in Xenopus. Frogs. It's a model species. It's great. Xenopus tropicalis is also known as the tropical clawed frog. And these tropical clawed frogs have claws and they're claws. They are made of keratin. Okay. Phylogenetic analysis of the genes that lead to the development of the keratinaceous claws of the clawed frog led to an understanding that, hey, you, with your pretty hair, you got the same gene, well, a homologue, which means it's kind of related to the genes that make these claws on the frogs. And it's called a HoxC13 gene. A Hox gene. HoxC13 is important for the creation of clausification, cornification, the hardening of a surface that involves keratin. And so the researchers were able to develop an understanding by blocking these hox genes in their clawed frogs and saying, hey, look, they don't make claws anymore. If we stop the hox, they don't get claws. And this... Can't stop the hox. Can't stop the hox. Do you know why they call them hox genes? Tell me. So it's short for homeobox and these genes program your body pattern. So the fact that they're at the tips of the claws, like those are going to be at the tips of other people, well, I'm sorry, other organisms in terms of programming. So homeobox, it's all about body planning. Right. And so they also saw these genes and the HoxC13 and keratin homologs at the toe tips of axolotls. Nice. We love axolotls. Axolotls, they got a lot of things, a lot of things to show us. So they were able to determine that these genes are prevalent and they are involved in this keratin defining formation function. So like body formation function, but in these particular locations. And so in their work, they're able to come up with the conclusion implications, you know, not looking at actual like mammalian stuff and making people's hair go away or mouse hair go away, but the implication is that once upon a time in our ancestry, we all started with fish or maybe a tetrapod ancestor that gained one of these HoxC13 genes to go on to create what we now know as our lovely locks, hox to locks. Makes sense. And the hooves of ponies. Yeah. So like you said, the body function, it's at what places in the body formation did bodies need to protect themselves? And for what function? So for protection, for durability or for, I guess, resilience against temperature? Or enemies? Or enemies? Yeah. If you get bit in the tail, I imagine you would want to be able to get away. Yeah, no. I'm at the point now where I'm letting my hair, I haven't cut it for a couple of years. It's been a while. I don't leave my house very often anymore. So I met that superhero point where it's like, don't wear a cape, you know, that's like the worst thing a superhero could do when they're fighting a villain. Like they're good. Okay. Yeah. Or tie it up really tightly so that you protect yourself. But anyway, we'll move on. Now it depends. Interesting that you brought up axolotls. I recently read somewhere that it's pronounced asloloch. Of course it is. And we recognized it. And yeah. Okay. Thank you. It's a no wattle word for water dog. Water dog. Yeah. I hope I'm doing that right. Asloloch. But yeah. I appreciate that. And you know, for years, of course, it's fun to say axolotl because that's the sound. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. Yes. But it's also not recognizing the language and tradition and place that it came from. So I appreciate that. Oh yeah. Now when we learn things, I don't know, the internet may have lied to me. The internet has lied to me before. I'm gonna need somebody to really, really pronounce it for me so I can do it right. Well, we'll have to get somebody on the show who knows a little bit more about a no wattle than either one of us do. And the language and traditions and the influence on science, which could be really amazing. That would be amazing. That would be a cool conversation. Let's do that. Let's do it. Let's do it. Oh my gosh. Okay. So moving from languages and keratin and our genomes and where our hair came from, let's go to outer space. People want to go to space. There's been a lot of research. There's a great article in ours, Technica Science, right? Available now that discusses the many methods that have been researched to shield humans in space from radiation, from solar flares, from the high energy particles that could just, they go right through most stuff. We on earth are protected because we have these awesome magnetic fields that are like, whatever, we've got Van Allen belts that are like, just follow us. Just stay with us. Be in the hula hoop. And it's great. But it's a lot of radiation out there. And if we want people in space for long periods of time, we need to protect them. We also need to protect our technology because the technology, quantum bits get flipped and then errors occur. And if you're depending on a computer system to keep humans safe, then that could be an issue. All right. That's a great article. Really, it's going to be linked on our show notes. But the story that I really wanted to get to is published in Forensic Science International reports because as more people live in space, of course, we need to figure out how to do forensic science in space. This paper simulated bloodstain patterns in microgravity. They basically were like, hey, we know a bloodstains look like and gravity. So let's try and have what happens to droplets. Droplets are different when there's microgravity. So the droplets are going to be weird and they're going to like distribute differently. So the bloodstain pattern from a space murder, space crime scene is going to be different. And so now they are doing space forensics research to plan for the future because people suck. There are also accidents that we need to explain all the time, I'm sure. But yeah. We haven't figured out yet how to get people to Mars or how to sustain life in orbit indefinitely. But we're going to certainly understand space murder. Yeah, we're going to understand space murder. That's the thing. So I love science so deeply. I've been saving this story because it just is one of those stories that I'm like, we're, of course. And yes. Okay. How did they make the splatter every time? So the splatter was created by the researchers using an ejection device to simulate the splatter, to simulate the impact and the way that the blood would be distributed. So in this microgravity that they used, they used a syringe and they applied pressure to syringes plunger and then looked at the midair breakup of the mass of fluid prior to target contact and then tried to analyze surface tension, cohesion, and connect that to the volume of the syringe and then how things changed as they splattered. Yeah. So they looked at 21 stains measured and they used an angle impact of 90 degrees, no deviation in the calculated versus the actual angle. And they also, let's see, this data was collected within the Roswell, Georgia Police Department Forensic Science Laboratory. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Horror movies when they're trying to imitate arterial spray, you put the fake blood in your mouth and you spit. And it's the same ejection pressure and pattern as getting an arterial spurt. So yeah, I know. So those syringes are like, I was wondering if they had like the same hand pressure every time or if they had one of those like micropumps that was, otherwise you've got that human error, you get way too excited about space murder and you put the syringe down. I was so excited about space murder squish. I'm going to make that by being told in that previous episode that I could keep you just yelling, I was so excited about space murder. That's a clip. Yeah. And they used a computer program to measure everything. They used horse blood back to the science horse. And they used the NASA flight opportunities programs where they had parabolic flights that were used as these experiments were conducted aboard the zero gravity modified Boeing 727 aircraft. So microgravity blood at that point on those parabolic flights, you could just study vomit spatter. The vomit is not blood. It has a different surface tension, a different like mass and viscosity. So it's going to be different. Yeah. So they used the air drag was present in the cabin, but gravity was the altered variable. And they say that they used, let's see, in the first and second experiments, one CC syringe containing the blood analog horse blood was used to project the fluid in a stream on a flight path of approximately 20 centimeters length that would intercept with a target of paper affixed to a foam backing board. They used the hydraulic pressure and the syringe was only used to set the fluid in motion. I'm not seeing anything that says that it was not a human. Yeah, it seems like a person squished the syringe. Right. So yeah, I'm not seeing anything yet. Yeah. Anyway, they want to study space hemorrhages and blood spatter. And that's what they're doing. Wow. Space murder. They got published in forensic science journal. Yes. This is forensic science international reports. How interesting. Blood in space. That's exactly it. Yes. Yes. Anyway, it's not the same surface tension is a driving factor to the shape and size of a blood stain without gravity. And so it's going to be different in microgravity than it is on Earth. They're going to have to use different reconstructive formulas when people do space murder. Those are my favorite stories over this year. I can't get over it. So what do you study? I study space murder. Get out. No, really? It's got to be Department of Defense funded, like Space Force related. Yeah. So this sounds like so it was, yeah, Roswell Police Force. If we go down to sources of funding, we see a research grant funded by the International Association of Blood Stain Pattern Analysis. Of course it is. Oh yeah, I know them totally. So I love it and hate it at the same time. There are grants that are very focused, very niche. Yes. Yes. That's what you gotta look for. Oh my goodness. Everyone, this is this week in science. I promised Jess that this was gonna be like an hour and now we're and so I'm gonna make this very brief. Thank you for joining us. This is the little break where I say, if you love the show, please tell somebody else about twists. Head over to twist.org and join our Patreon if you would like to support the show in an ongoing fashion. You can also click on the Zazzle link if you are interested in purchasing some merchandise that will also help support the show. We really can't do this without you. Thank you for your support. All right. Coming on back and it's all about Dr. Jessica Hebert. I'm gonna reintroduce you right now to everyone. Our guest tonight is a researcher at OHSU, Oregon Health Sciences University specializing in rhabdomyolysis. Rhabdomyolysis depends on where you came from and renal function. She's a placental biologist by training and an Oregon Museum of Science and Industry Science Communication Fellow and award-winning science communicator and science musician. And while we've been talking through the start of the show, it has been a long time since you've joined us. So even though we have talked about your work previously, I would love you to if you can summarize what is rhabdomyolysis and why are you interested in it and are you still interested in it and why am I pronouncing it incorrectly all the time. I think I've heard it both ways as they say on psych the right way and the wrong way. So yeah, thank you for that introduction. I am a placentalologist by training and but these days I'm a integrative physiologist. I work at the intersection of renal and reproductive health and I do still study rhabdomyolysis. So rhabdom means muscle, myo from myoglobin and lysis meaning breaking apart. So I study rhabdomyolysis because you can get something called acute kidney injury from it. Rhabdomyolysis happens anytime you get a crush injury to a muscle, whether that's from falling debris or earthquake victims or vehicle crash victims or crossfitters get rhabdo all the time because they overwork the muscles, spin class enthusiasts, people who do basic training, people who get shrapnel in their legs. So all these ways that you can blow up your muscle, it releases myoglobin and other metabolites into the bloodstream. And when it gets to your kidneys, all of those things are pretty small. So they get filtered by your glomerulus that's right away at the start of the kidney nephron. They get filtered right away. But then that little bit of tubule right there has a protein that attaches to myoglobin very readily and takes it up into the tubule becomes reactive oxygen species and damages. So that's oxidative stress and damages the cell and causes leaking in the kidney. So yeah, that's exactly what it is. You tear a muscle, it gets here kidney, and then you get that classic what's called Coca Cola or iced tea urine. It's very dark brown. It's kind of sticky. And if you see brown urine go to a hospital, you have your kidneys are not working right. They call it acute kidney injury because oftentimes people recover within about two weeks the only treatment is aggressive fluid resuscitation. A lot of people get rhabdo or AKI in such a minor way that it's often subclinical and they can recover at home. But if you see brown urine go to the hospital, your creatinine is through the roof. They're going to want to treat you. This is like you've worked out too much, not had enough water, you've pushed yourself too far, like you've had too much protein or is it a specific combination of factors that leads to this or is it really dependent on the person? It's really dependent on the person. You could say that the more muscle mass you have, the more likely it is that you could injure yourself and have muscle breakdown and have more severe rhabdo. But it's what they see in basic training. There's this crazy figure. It's like 80 to 100% of women in basic training lose their periods. And part of that is due to development of muscle and also potentially muscle injury. So it's this entire system of checks and balances in our body when you throw it off whack by doing something like extreme exercise. Now I want to know about young athletes who don't get their periods because for a long time they don't get them at the normal age or the average age because they are working out at such a high level like gymnasts or runners or... Yeah, they call it amenuria. Yeah, the loss of a period. But when we say... If you don't get your period because you're doing that, like if it offsets, the beginning of your menstruation ability. Yeah, the things that we do to our bodies is being humans weird. Yeah. The take-home is be cool. Don't work out too hard. If it's brown, go to the hospital. Yeah, if it's brown, don't flush it down. Go to the hospital. Flush it down. Go to the hospital. Yeah, yeah, also that would be fine. Unless they ask for a sample then don't flush it. We say that rhabdo causes acute kidney injury, but we know that if you recover in about two weeks, but if you have any kind of acute kidney injury, you're at a higher risk later of getting chronic kidney disease. It's called shred, so stroke, hypertension, reproductive risk, dementia, and death. Your risk of all those things goes up significantly within three years. Yay. What? Yeah, yeah. And COVID-AKI looks and functions a lot like rhabdomyolysis, AKI. And when I started this research, I was doing a lot of placental research, but I'd also done some kidney stuff and I met a guy named Mike Hutchins. He's a critical care anesthesiologist over at the VA, and he had Department of Defense money to study what happens if you're in combat, you get shot in the leg, you're not anywhere near where they've got a whole lot of fluids to help you save your kidneys. Can we give a drug that stops that little part, that tubular part of your kidney from taking up the myoglobin and getting damaged? And I said, that's very interesting. They get all these long-term effects from getting acute kidney injury. What happens when they go to get pregnant? And he said, well, people don't study that because AKI is considered an old people's disease. And I said, old people aren't in combat. Old people aren't doing crossfit. And so I made a model of acute kidney injury caused by rhabdo in mice. I know. And this is why I asked you this question earlier. This is important. And we found a lot of things, including the fact that being born to a parent that had recovered acute kidney injury in their past in mice would lead to the pups dying three times more frequently in the perinatal period. Mom's kidneys don't work so well in pregnancy. She's got problems in the glomerulus, dumping a whole lot of protein out of her urine, including a very specific protein that we're developing an SA4 now in human urine. Okay. So then you can actually see what's possibly going wrong. And detect it sooner so that we can help develop a treatment. A lot of the mouse study work is coming out in a paper that was accepted today in frontiers in physiology. And it'll be published open access. So keep an eye out. I've got a Google scholar page. And I'm on PubMed. And I'll post about it on Twitter and Blue Sky and all the places too, when it's officially out, but it should be out in at least preprint in the next couple of weeks. I'm so excited about that. I want to, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Really quick. This is a sideline entirely. Kai, who you met probably ages ago, like he's here. You want to say good night to everyone? Yeah. Hello. Hi, Kai. Oh, goodness. Yeah. Oh, goodness. Yeah. He's 13. He's 13 now. I don't think I've seen Kai in person since he was probably eight or so. Hi. Oh my goodness. Look at you. Yeah. He just had a birthday. He's a teenager now. He's five foot, one and a half. And he's working on getting taller than his mom. Oh my goodness. It's good to see you, Science Baby. Yeah. She said good to see you. Yeah. All right. Good to see you. I love you. Good night. He's over with the babysit my Science Baby now. Yeah. Maybe he wants to make some money in babysit. Actually, I don't think he wants to babysit. For people who don't know, we're both, we're both in Portland. We're in the same city. And we just want to see each other. It happens. It really happens. So, I mean, I'm going to go back in time and remember a demonstration you made talking about the placenta and pressure in the placenta involving like a squirt gun. And it was very well thought out. And it really demonstrated, you know, the importance of pressure in the functioning of the membranes, the organ, the things that are working. And so, you know, it seems like a natural follow on that you would be looking at the kidneys because the kidneys and glomerular, glomerular pressure and all that. Is it all a similar system with the integrative physiology and stuff that you're like, is this, do they, do they have similar genetic cellular, like metabolic pathways? Like what's happened in there? So, the placenta in the kidney or cousins is the easiest way I can put it. They have a lot of similar functions. So, they both have to transport waste and nutrients. They are important in exchange. But the big thing that people don't necessarily think about when we talk about the kidney is that it is a cardiovascular related organ. It cleaves. So, if you ever have known somebody to be on an ACE inhibitor to help lower blood pressure, all of that ACE, everything in the renin angiotensin system, a lot of that gets cleaved and is functional in the kidney. And that's what controls your blood pressure. And in the placenta as well, you have this balance of ACE and angiotensin II and other things that control blood vessel pressure and formation in order to adequately slow the blood down from the maternal side through to the fetal interface so that that exchange region gets bathed with blood rather than blasted with blood, which is why I use the supersoaker and be like, there's different levels of pressure. So, if you turn, if you turn mom's blood pressure up, hypertension, yeah, in pregnancy, yeah, you don't have the ability to slow that blood down. So, controlling maternal kidney function in pregnancy is also very important and leads to placental development changes as well. Yeah, it's all interconnected. It's pregnancy by committee or Oregon committee, physiological committee, putting it all together. Yeah. So, your paper is going to be coming out is like, can you tell us, you know, implications that are, you know, that you're really excited about or anything? I mean, if it hasn't been published yet, and we have, you know, it's, it has been accepted. So, I feel like can we talk about it or is it under? Yeah, it's always cool. I was presented a chunk of this at the Society for Reproductive Investigation meeting in Vancouver last week, where it won Best Poster. So, people have seen it. It's out in the world a little bit. So, long-term implications. There's been a couple of really great papers on this, including Jessica Tangren's group from UMass, who studied, they went back through a bunch of cases and said, okay, people, women who have ever had acute kidney injury, who have then gone on to get pregnant, what did their risk for preeclampsia or small babies or anything increase? And it turned out, yeah, their risk for all those things increased. But what we would call classic preeclampsia doesn't necessarily look like what I'm seeing in my mice. The mice get higher mean arterial pressure, but not higher systolic pressure, systolic pressure versus diastolic pressure in blood pressure. So, systolic pressure is when your heart contracts. That's all the force on your blood vessels. And diastolic is when your heart relaxes. And the diastolic pressure doesn't go down. So, their blood vessels never relax. Do you think this is a mouse thing? Is this one of the differences between the mouse model and human or primate situations? Or do you think that this is an experimental issue that you need to dig into? I think it's totally translatable to humans. And here's why. So, back in May of last year, you may have remembered a high-profile story, a woman named Tori Birch, who was on the U.S. track and field Olympics team, died very suddenly of eclampsia at eight months. And it turned out that two of her other teammates also died because of pregnancy complications. And even though they're, you know, they had access to great health care and their blood pressures seemed right, they were still high performing athletes who probably had a history of some sort of maybe damage to their bodies over the course of training. But there's definitely something going on with them that leads us to believe that there was a difference in how their pregnancies proceeded that we might not have caught on traditional, like pre-eclampsia measures. So, being able to see this model where we've got, you know, a mild form of acute kidney injury that is recoverable, but pregnancies are still, you know, not quite right. And the offspring aren't quite right. While most of them survive, they tend to have kidney issues in later life. Even if those offspring didn't get AKI themselves, it's all developmentally caused. What can we do in order to make the, detect as soon as possible that those pregnancies are in trouble? And if it's not blood pressure, is it a marker in the urine? Is it a marker in the blood? What can we find? And then, how do we help it? Yeah, it seems like elite athletes, they'd be measuring creatinine all the time because that's like muscle, you know, how much muscle you're building. And, you know, that's, that's a standard measure for metabolic purposes. So what you're talking about with this new measurement for the kidney function and damage is possibly going to be huge. I hope so. Creatinine is not a great measurement for kidney function for a lot of reasons. We don't have time to unpack all of that. Oh, as a physiology lab instructor for many years. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Yeah. So the protein that we'll be, that we talk about in the paper and the protein that I'll be studying in my new American Heart Association grant that I just received last week. Congratulations. It is kidney related to cardiovascular. Exactly. And I'm so glad that they were able to see that and put their belief into women's health, which has been a big topic lately. It's a small protein that if the proximal tubule isn't working, that first part of the nephron, then you see it in high abundance in the urine. It's a small protein called, I always get this one wrong. It's RBP4, retinol binding protein for. So it binds vitamin D. Retinol? Yeah, retinol. A, vitamin A? Yeah, vitamin A. Yeah. It's, you need all the vitamins A. A. We're all Canadian now. RBP4 and then albumin gets dumped out of this, out of their urine in a huge amount. And albumin is also a pretty small protein. So, I mean, compared to the other proteins, it's like 70 kilodaltons. That's pretty small. Yeah. So that's an interesting thing, like what the size of proteins are, how you use them to detect certain things, whether they're useful, based on their size, bigger proteins, probably easier to detect in particular assays, but whole other area of study. And you did just mention this next topic that we do want to talk about, which is women's health research in general, and how work like yours is being supported by the American Heart Association. And also with the White House and the Biden administration have been pushing forward with their women's health research initiative. I mean, do you think it's, I mean, there are moonshots and there are things that presidents do and women's health has been at the bottom of the list forever. We know that there are attacks on abortion rights and women's health reproductive rights across our country right now. We've lost them in a lot of places. And generally, research studies, because women do vary in their cycles throughout the month, as opposed to men who just, you know, vary a lot during the day, you know, we've been not studied, not involved in studies in women, female mice, female birds, female whatever, like not included. It just hasn't been addressed. What are your feelings about this initiative and how the politics may influence research moving forward? Well, I think it's about time that we put some money into these studies. I mean, so much of what we know about cardiovascular medicine has been designed around male subjects. The long term effects on the developmental origins of health and disease have been done in men, not women. And that's, and when I say men and women, I mean, largely speaking, from the biological, the assigned at birth, as a nation, but we also are expanding like the Society for Reproductive Investigation has an expanding area into trans medicine, which I think is very important as well. Absolutely. So being able to understand reproductive sciences as a whole, how they affect everyone is critical. I'm glad to see money going into women's healthcare, particularly into long term obstetrics and long term disease vectors, because they haven't been the focus. So this White House posting that you have up right now, I think this was from today, wasn't it? A couple days ago, but it's been reported on like just in the last day or so. Yeah. So President Biden has signed in $200 million to the NIH to help support women's health research. And then the first lady, Jill Biden, committed $100 million to women's health research. Vice President Harris has also been a part of the women's health research initiatives, and places that you wouldn't necessarily expect to be on superboard with women's health research, like the military and the VA have gotten on board. So I'm really excited to see that. I don't know if you know this, but women were not allowed to be combatants in the US military, like actually in the field of combat until 2015. So what we know about the effects of women in combat are extremely limited. And when they leave the service, they become veterans. And we know even less about what happens to women veterans who have served in combat. So I'm glad to see these initiatives taking place and supporting long term health research so that we can actually do some good. Yeah, I'm excited about it. I mean, there's so much work, for example, studies that have shown that having head injuries at different points during your menstrual cycle can influence the way that your immune system reacts to the, or the inflammatory aspect of your immune system reacts to that head injury. And so an accident at one part of your cycle can be more disastrous or impactful than at another point in your cycle. Is this the same to your kidneys? Is this the same to other part other organ systems in the body? Like estrogen is a huge part of the inflammation cycle, like all of our hormones and the way they work together with our immune system are so, we know so little, especially because so much work has been, it's just been limited. And it's interesting you bring up hormones. So estrogen is reno protective, it protects your kidneys. So if you get some sort of kidney injury while you're pregnant, your kidneys typically do a little bit better. But I gave a talk on some of this at the UK preterm birth conference in January. And I'm not a preterm birth person, but you know, my mice are born small, which is important. And I had so many clinicians get excited in the room because they went, our patients get AKI and labor all the time. Do you think that's important? And I could have just like dropped, I had no idea. Yes, it is. That would be really important to know. Especially like the recovery. And what does that mean for, you know, like, for recovery care, breastfeeding later for fluids for all the things. And not even like recovery related to childbirth, just recovery as a human. Like, what is that going to do to your long term blood pressure to your, like, are you going to be more likely to get CKD? There were so many questions that we hadn't thought about before. So now that is an aim on another project I'm working on that we can talk about anytime. But I would like to find a way to help protect women from getting AKI while they're in labor. Oh, is that important? Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah. And so like, we, the American healthcare system, we know that certain populations of people, black women specifically, have a higher rate of death during childbirth. We know women die a lot more in childbirth in the United States than other like really advanced westernized societies. What the heck is going on? Is it because we're not talking about this kind of stuff? Is it because we're not paying attention to these particular factors in people's lives to previous injuries or previous experiences that might be impacting blood pressure, kidney pressure, glomerular function, like? Partly that, partly, you know, a system that has been designed to be inequitable for healthcare over years and years and years. And also a lot of distrust amongst black and people of color and black people and people of color who don't want to be involved in research studies and who can blame them. We have not necessarily as. We haven't done anything to make a lot of trust. Yeah. So we need to expand our knowledge about what affects these communities in particular. And it's not just in an equity of where health systems are available. As a woman pointed out at a recent meeting I was at, like Beyonce had access to healthcare. Tori Birch had access to healthcare. They both had pregnancy complications. So it's not necessarily about access, but it could be about historical access and awareness and what the caregivers are paying attention to. Absolutely. In the moment. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of questions, both, you know, scientific and social that go together, but they're all important. I feel like a lot of times biology is an area, you know, it's not a hard science, but it's one of the sciences. And it's like, oh, when you go to school, it's like, oh, yeah, hard sciences. They're the ones that matter. And like the soft science of psychology, social science below, what do they know? But I feel like the integration of all of these things now in a civic manner where they allow people, scientists, communities to work together is needed. And do you see that happening at all with Portland OHSU or just the general community you're working in? Like an overlap of the humanities and the sciences. Yeah. Like you said, like the social factors and the, you know, the physical factors that people, doctors are going to be looking for, right? Some. And I think this is why conferences are really important. I don't know that I would necessarily go and see like a psychology of gynecologic health talk if it was being offered at a local university. But when you're at a symposium, you know, yeah, I want to learn more about that or about global health care initiatives. And these are all, that's an important intersection that I think we're sort of missing during the pandemic. And COVID isn't over, but we are starting to reconvene and getting some of that face to face time in those connections, I think will help us. It's, it's hard when you're embroiled in science to see beyond your own front door. Yeah. Yeah, that it's, it's a real challenge when the push is constantly on, like, get the next grant, get the next grant. So initiatives like what the Bidens are doing right now will hopefully help take the pressure off a little bit so that we can think outside the immediate box and look for some of these more radical transformations to our health care system. And, and hopefully lead to more collaborations between researchers like yourself. You're also a communicator, but you can't do all the communication when you're doing the research. So you need to have the ability to collaborate with nonprofits, with community groups, like how can we get more of that happening so that progress can really be made more money. No money, no money, no bills, yo, here we go. Yeah, I think that if you don't have someone in, in your research sphere who is in charge of your science communication and good at it, then you should hire people who are, who are, who are, who are, who are, who are hire people who are. Yeah. Dr. Kiki has a shingle. Oh my gosh. I did want to like ask about the plastics in the placenta research, but I do know that I've kept you much longer than was discussed. So do you want to go there or do you want to discuss anything else before we end the show? My thoughts about plastics in the placenta can be summed up pretty briefly. It's bad, okay? Well, especially for, so the placenta is my favorite temporary organ because it's the only temporary organ. And the fact that we see buildup of microplastics in the placenta at rates that we would see buildup in some of the other tissues of the body over the course of 40 weeks is a little bit scary. And microplastics come with endocrine disruption factors. So if you have, you know, this very carefully balanced pregnancy by committee going on with estrogen and angiotensinogen and all of these factors working together, disruption of that is going to disrupt the potential for fetal development. So it's not great but I think that that research is still pretty bleeding edge because there's only so much we understand. And there's only so many like space murder. Exactly. Yeah, there are, it is on the edge where there's only a small number of papers that really are heading that direction where we're showing like the number of papers that actually support that microplastics are deleterious to animals in the oceans or the environment is very small. Physically, yeah, it's bad for turtles to and fish to swallow plastic. That's bad because then they're not eating food. But like the what you're talking about the chemical factors, the endocrine disruptors, all the others. Yeah, it's not enough yet. It's not enough. Continue to talk to your lawmakers about getting money to science. And also if you happen to have a wealthy relative who wants to donate to a foundation, I love money and making science and I would be happy to tell you how to do that. But yeah, you can. Did you know that foundations will let you just give them money to do things? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think anybody knows that. Yes, you can also start your own trusts if you are wealthy enough to start a trust for a particular function and can get a nonprofit or a foundation to be a manager of that trust and how it gets distributed. There are so many things. That sounds really nice. How do I get one of those? Why did I choose the life of crime? Let's talk about that. Doing the science, communicating the science, neither of these things well funded at this point in time. But we do it because we love it and because it needs to be done. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. And you are incredible. You're absolutely amazing. And I know that you're going through it with a two year old family. You've been doing postdoc docking, looking for a professorship, associate professorship, like all the things and the grant funding and the research and the music and the pirating and all. My life is weird. It's true. But if I didn't have some of the weird outside of it, I wouldn't survive. The rest of it. And like I said, found out that I got an American Heart Association Career Development Award and that helps tremendously. And I will be making a transition, a job transition here in May. And I'll be leaving the world of postdoc behind and joining the faculty at OHSU Nephrology. So that will make my life a little, I'm very excited. Nephrology will be a good home for me. It will. And I can't wait to introduce you with a new title. Yay. May that I'll be Dr. Instructor Hebert, Dr. Instructor. Thank you for joining me tonight. Of course. It was my pleasure. I love you. I love this weekend science. Your audience is always the best. So it's a pleasure to get to come on and talk about not just my science, but the cool stuff that's happening out there that we read about and then we don't have anyone to yell at about. So let's yell at each other. Space murder! Love you in space. I believe that was... I'm both glad and horrified that space murder forensics was... I saved it just for you. Thank you. I feel blessed. Hashtag blessed by space murder. Oh my God. Do you have any upcoming things, media, links, anything you would like to share with everyone before we go? Do. So I have my paper coming out in Frontiers in Physiology very soon. But in the meantime, you can check out my Google Scholar. I'm also Dame underscore DNA on Twitter. And my band, the PDX broadsides, we sing about science and space and fandoms and feelings and Nathan feelings. But we're going to be doing a set at the Alberta Rose Theatre in Portland on March 31st as part of a benefit for a place called the Steep and Thornie Way to Heaven. There's my Google Scholar. They were damaged by the ice storms in Portland in January and they lost their performance space and we're very good friends with them. So it's a resurrection benefit on Easter Sunday with singing and burlesque and opera with suspension and I can't interact with you. Opera with suspension? Yeah, she's like a suspension artist and does ritual opera. I can't even describe it. It's incredible. It's pretty crazy. So resurrection at Alberta Rose on March 31st, those tickets are available now. And we've got some special songs ready for you. That's fantastic. Yeah, I can't wait. All right, end of the month. Nerdy, wonderful exploratory, adventurous fun with music and again, thank you so much for joining me tonight. Dr. Jessica Hebert, all of your knowledge and experiences. Much appreciated here. Thank you so much. Anytime. All right, I'm going to do the outro in the show and you if you'd like to stay for all of it, you may if you want and go family. I will stick around for like five minutes and then I hear my son doing nonsense. That's what children do, child sense. After the outro, if we're just chatting, I'll open my door and if you can come say hi. Okay, do the thing, the official thing. I'm going to do the official thing right now. Okay, everybody. I really, really love that you all joined us for this episode. Thank you so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed the show and for everyone out there, make sure that you do. Go check out PDX Broadsides. Look for Dr. Jessica Hebert at wait, wait, wait on the Twitter. Dame DNA on the Twitters and the blue skies also there, you know, because Twitter's weird these days. We also have a lot of shout outs to do for people who support the show, all of you in the chat rooms, all the chat rooms. I see you. Thank you for being here, Discord, Facebook, YouTube, Twitch. You're all here. I appreciate it. Thank you, Arn-Laure, Gord, those of you who have been involved in helping to keep the chat rooms happy, nice places to exist and be and converse. Fada, thank you for your help with show notes and social media. I know you did a little late switching of stuff to help get the word out that Dr. Hebert was joining us this evening. Identity four, thank you so much for recording the show. And Rachel, thank you for your help in editing the show. And finally, I do need to thank our Patreon sponsors, because what could we do without all of you? Thank you, too. 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And if you've learned anything from the show, remember this week in science, this week in science, this week in science, it's the end of the world. So I'm setting up a shop, got my banner unfurled. It says the scientist is in. I'm going to sell my advice, show them how to stop the robot with a simple device. I'll reverse global warming with a wave of my hand and all is coming your way. So everybody listen to what I say. I use the scientific method for all that it's worth and I'll broadcast my opinion. This week in science, this week in science, this week in science, this week in science, this week in science, this week in science, this week in science, I've got one disclaimer science science. We've made it to the after show, everybody doing a podcast every week is a lot. That is a labor of love. It's been. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, it's a long, long time. You're almost at episode 1000. What are you going to do? I had, I've thought about doing like some kind of a like a festival kind of thing and trying to get people to come in person, but I don't know if people would like try to get like cool scientists, science communicator people and then like make a party and people talk about and then I don't know people could buy tickets and come and then it would be a live show. And I don't know. I think it could be a lot of fun. Yeah. Live show. Do it. Yeah. I have this little dream in my head of like this live show thing with lots of cool people and it's only 40 weeks away. So sometimes you're like so long. It's basically a full gestation and a six-week baby. It's not that long. It's not that long. It's fine. But we're cutting after show. It's after show. We're live, but it's after show. Oh, Paul, you've come to Portland for twist 1000. That's right. The train what train ride would be amazing. Yes. I'm opening my office door now, which means my child will come steaming in at any time. There is no longer restrictions on your behavior. Yeah. I'm running. Thada, thank you so much again for running things in the chat. Uh-oh. Running baby. Oh my goodness. Hello. Is this Hudson? Oh, Hudson, how are you? Are you good? Can you say hi? I like your little onesie. That's very cute. You can say hi. You say hi all the time. Say hi, Dr. Kiki. I feel like that's like a dark side Star Wars onesie thing. It totally is. He's our little Darth Vader. Are you Darth Vader? You're not Darth Vader. No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're Darth Vader. He might be. He's a Hudson, a.k.a. Darth Vader. No. Okay. No. No. Oh, lots of people want to come down. 46 weeks. No. You'd be big enough. You want to be. Yeah, he'll be the MC. Okay. I will. Your mom and I have experience. We can totally train you in the MC skills. It'll be great. Well, and his dad, his dad is an actor and an MC. Yeah. Do you like science, Hudson? Yeah, you do. Yeah. Yeah, you do. What's your favorite? What? Do you like animals? He does. He loves his doggies. Oh, we found the button. That's our Excalibur's engineering says that Hudson is still Anakin. We are going to go have dinner, but yeah. Is it dinner time? We're going to go have a burrito with your bow. I love burritos. Do you love burritos? I love burritos. Yeah. We're not rolling dice, man. Wednesday night is always a burrito night because usually mommy and daddy have other things to do, but yeah. So I found my child would have like a 5 p.m. meltdown, need to take a rest, needed food kind of thing, but then he'd want to stay up super late. We usually sleep at about 11.30. Yeah, it's wild. Yeah, and then you're like, oh, now I have to put you to bed at like seven because you have to go to school. This is a weird thing to do. Yeah, we'll adjust when we have to, but he's not two yet. So we're just two. He's just very... You're going to sleep when you're going to sleep and you're going to get all the sleep that you want. Yeah, he is. Hi. There you go. No, you're saying hi. Hi. Yeah, let's talk to your kiki. She's our friend. I hope I get to see you in person. I live in Portland. That would be cool. Yeah, we can totally do, especially as things warm up. No, outdoor things. Love a park. We have parks. There's parks in Portland. Yeah, we love a park for a splash pad. We did go to a couple of splash pads when he was, last summer, he was just over a year old. He didn't know quite what to do with them, but now, no, you're a maniac. You'll figure that right out. All right, Mr. Man, we're gonna go get maniac, maniac toddler. Thank you so much for having me on the show, and I look forward to coming back on the third. Yeah, I hope that that works out. I appreciate that you put that out there. And yeah, if I can help with the sitter costs, I would be happy to do that. That's very kind. We'll see what we can figure out. Yeah, I can make it the third work, and I can talk about. Hey, Chalk is amazing. Don't eat it though. I mean, that's like, we'll talk. We will talk. We'll make sure I'm so glad that I got this chance. Thank you. Thank you for thinking of me. This was delightful, and I'm so glad to be back. You had said it a while ago, and I was like, but you're so busy. And then I reached out and this worked, and I'm so glad. So thank you. Yeah, no, I'm Wednesday nights can be hit and miss for us, but as soon as I go, we burritos. This was time. This was meant to be. Yes, I know. Burrito time. Go eat burritos. Go eat burritos. Say bye bye. Bye bye. Blow us a kiss. Bye bye. Thank you. Back to you, little animal. I caught it. It went right to my heart. All right. Good night, everybody. Good night, Jess. Have a good one. Everybody, thank you so much for joining me and Dr. Hebert for an episode of This Week in Science. What a fun night. It was great. Yes, and I'm glad that I could make the show happen. Yeah, there, I don't know. I don't know. There may be some changes moving forward. I don't know what's happening schedule wise. I need some more consistency. So I'm going to be working on some things on the back end, but I want you to know that I'm thinking about all of you because you have been here. You are here. You're who I talk to every week. And it's really wonderful to be able to share with you and get to know you over the time in the years. So, huh, live show? Shall we try and do it? I don't know. I'm glad that a few who would come see in person. That could be fun. Okay. But it's a Wednesday. It's 9.44 here on the Pacific time zone and I'm going to go check on my 13 year old who probably has not brushed his teeth and is not in bed yet. So I'm going to go take care of those family things and thank you all for joining once again. And I look forward to seeing you next week. Remember, stay healthy, stay safe, stay curious. And as Justin would like to say, stay lucky because that's a big thing. Good night.