 Rwy'n cael ei wneud i'r peth o gweithio mewn ei wneud�r mewn ysgolol mewn pethau i ddweud fy ystodd am y llyfr newydd ym uwch, i ddweud o gweithio'r ysgrifennu a'r bydwyr ai'r sefyllfa yn rhyw ap y nifer,紙 o'r ffordd y clef ar hyn i'r ffordd. Yn y ffordd, fynd ychydig bywch eich gwneud gweld ffordd o'r pryddiwyr, a'u fydd yn ei chemilyd. Fy wnaeth ychydig yn eu huws fel y cyd, ym ychydig i'r ffwrdd yn dod yn rhaid Herywyn adegd, alcoholyg, dyna'r arm drobary, y tent mardda, sy'n your mum and dad feiton. You've been through a ton more you on your life, you've been through misery, you've been through pain, but you've came out the other end of it. You know, I got into crime quite young and my first offence was arm drobary and position of firearms. I was age 15 and you know, back then it was it wasn't that heard of like a 15 year old arm robber and really looking back it was my desire to protect the scared little boy. You know, if I could be the toughest, the loudest criminal it would mean that no one could hurt me. I believe I had to make a decision. I don't believe you can be on both sides of the fence. If I've got to be on the side where you're building people up and hearing people down you can't be both. A group of rugby fans got racially abusive to my friend and you know, a fight broke out and it just went too far. You know, the guy who racially abused my mate got stabbed in the throat the face and the throat like multiple times and that was it. I remember waking up to a pillow over my head. Did that kill you? Yeah, a pillow over my head and the other two were just battering me really, you know. It's funny, I was so desperate to end it, James. To the point I was like I cannot bear this cold turkey any longer and as soon as I the rope tightened around my neck like instantly I didn't want to die. But I'd realised it was too late. I couldn't get it off and you go from trying to pull it off to then realising it's too late to then thinking about your family and your mum and your brothers and sisters and that was the saddest part is like, I wish I could have been better for them. Ben, we're on. And today's guest we've got Michael Macy. How are you brother? I'm good James. It's good to see you. Thanks for having me on man. You sent me your book away back in August. That's right. Powerful book, you've got a very this podcast is for anyone who's battling with addictions been in and out of prison being abused for you as a kid who was abused when we were younger heroin addict, alcoholic done for armed robbery, attempt murder senior mum and dad fighting you've been through a ton more you in your life you've been through misery, you've been through pain but you've came out with the other end of it. First of all congratulations have been 13 years clean. Thank you mate, thank you. It's amazing to see you've got a great glow about you. You're flying mate BBC news everywhere telling your story going round prisons. This is what it's all about. Change, how to change and how to make better lives. How are you? Yeah well you know I'm good and I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me on mate. It's a privilege to be here and you know it's when I hear you say all that stuff it's like crikey that is my story you know in a lot of ways I'm quite detached from it because I tell it so much I tell it like it's someone else's story but that was me that I was that kid who grew up in a broken home who experienced physical abuse, sexual abuse had an absent father you know and it's been a tough old journey you know but I'm here today and my life primarily is to help others that's what I live for is to help others and carry a message of hope that change is possible but not just not living a life of crime I mean actually being sober breaking the cycle for your own kids having a successful business really really changing every aspect of your life and then going and helping others do the same. That's the gift in life as given try to help others try to be better but when you help somebody else you really receive something from it but it's difficult like you say it's about breaking cycles and your prime example that it can be done I always go back to the start of my guest brother on how it all began. Yeah yeah sure so I grew up on a council estate in a place called Isworth which is just outside of London it's very clear it's a council estate called Ivy Bridges state and if you've ever been to Twicken and Rugby stadium you'll see the big tower blocks behind the stadium and that's where we grew up you know I come from my mum was from a gypsy background she left Ireland pre arranged wedding arranged to another rival gypsy family she fled and came to London and that's where she met my dad and my dad was just like a normal guy used to like to drink take drugs bit of a party guy and they had a pretty explosive relationship you know my mum had you know experienced physical abuse from her father and so she was always looking for that sort of man to protect her to keep her safe and she found that in my dad who was quite an unpredictable violent man and you know by the time I was one we'd moved house three times he'd left and I was primarily raised by my mum and um when I was about five years old my uncle Tommy came to live with us and my uncle Tommy was different from the rest of my mum's siblings he was took into a children's home run by priests who were all paedophiles he was took into a children's home when he was a baby so all he'd ever experienced all his life in this children's home in Ireland called Nazareff Lodge was physical and sexual abuse when he reached out to my mum and said I need somewhere to go my mum welcomed him into our home and you know that was I'd experienced quite a bit of trauma up to that point but nothing was enough to really give up as a young boy but after my uncle Tommy came to live with us and after the sexual abuse that was when I really started changing my attitude and outlook on the world I basically made a decision as a young boy that this world isn't a friendly place you know the people who hurt you the most are normally the ones closest to you and the people who are closest to you normally lie as well and as a young 5 year old it's hard to figure your head around that you know I had to somehow think how do I survive this and my coping strategy as a 5 year old boy was I'm gonna be loud, angry unpredictable what that would do people won't want to be around me teachers, social workers anyone they'll be like stay away from Michael he's got mental problems behavioural problems ADHD whatever you want to call it now right that was just my defence of keeping you at arm's length I knew if I kept you just there you couldn't hurt me and so that was my thing throughout school and you know my early sort of teenagers and then I found safety the first safety I found was really in the gang that I became a part of we weren't called as a gang we were just a group of kids from a council estate but that was where I first felt a sense like I'm safe like there's people here who aren't gonna hurt me and actually who have my back the only problem with that James is you know we were all young lads from broken homes so it was like the blind leading the blind none of us really knew how to live properly as young men in the world and we also lived very close to Twickenham rugby stadium now sort of there's like a rugby season throughout the year and so throughout the year you'll have a period of time where lots of people will come to Twickenham rugby stadium to watch rugby now most rugby fans and not all of them but most of them in my experience come from wealthy white families and I grew up on a council estate where it was very mixed culturally mixed race, black people, asian people you know and when there was a rugby match on there'd be loads of Range Rovers, Mercedes, BMWs parked up on the council estate you'd see rich white families getting out of them going to watch a rugby they looked well, they dressed well and it was always a thing for us where in a lot of ways it really shone a light on how little we had financially but also from a family perspective you'd see a lot of these young lads going to watch rugby with their dad for most of us on the council estate our dads either weren't around it or they were in prison and so it created this alienation of them and us even though we were all from near the same community it was like we're the poor people and with that come this sort of mentality that in order to get what we want we have to break the rules and hustling and committing crime was part of that and I got into crime quite young and my first offence was armed robbery and possession of firearms I was age 15 and back then it wasn't that heard of like a 15 year old armed robber and really looking back it was my desire to protect the scared little boy if I could be the toughest, the loudest criminal it would mean that no one could hurt me really it was about it was about protecting that little boy you know and so yeah that was it I didn't go to prison for that offence I went to court and my solicitor basically presented a case that a judge said look at what this kid's been through they had all the case files from everything I'd been through the times I'd been hospitalised and what were you hospitalised for? when I was about about 3-4 years old I I woke up one morning and I went into the kitchen I didn't have a napion and I went into the kitchen and I sat on the floor and I was in there was a tin opener on the floor basically and I was a young boy and I was I was just infatuated with this tin opener and I was playing with it and in the middle of this infatuation I'd wrapped it in my testicles and that was the first time I was hospitalised as a young boy I had to be taken to hospital I had to be surgically removed so it was like incidents like this that were brought up in court can you remember that or do you think somebody done it to you? no no I can't I can't remember it but I remembered afterwards like when there was parties that would joke about it that it was like a joke it was weird because it's something that I remember it on some level and I know when I had sexual partners when I got older it was always an area that was I couldn't have someone touch me in that area basically so I always knew something had happened there and I always knew they sort of joked about it when I was a kid so yeah it was always a difficult thing and that was like the thing they brought up in court amongst other stuff but that was some of the stuff that you had mum and dad they were herion addicts? my dad was yeah my mum was an alcoholic my mum sort of said to my dad you know you can't be around us you know she sort of ended that relationship before I was one that's right my mum come from family is it 15? yeah so my dad I've got 15 brothers and sisters from my dad and my mum come from a gypsy family he was Catholic and he used to branch in mum like burn stuff and stick it to the kids did I read that? yeah that's in the book yeah my mum had a my mum had a horrific life you know she grew up and she looked quite different from the rest of her brothers and sisters and her dad would always punish her for that there was never any sexual abuse in her family but it was very physical and one of the ways was branding them he'd spoon over the fire horrific stuff James when my mum told me about it and she told me about when I was young it traumatised me as a young boy hearing about what my mum had been through and looking at the burns on her so yeah she had it hard my mum was doing the best with what she had she didn't have proper parents to show her how to be a proper mum so although my mum fouled in a lot of ways she actually was done the best as she could with the tools she was given so it can be difficult did you have hate for them at a young age but then once you started understanding them more sympathy and love came across forgiveness that as you said they could only be what they knew or what they were to so it can be difficult for coming from family who have addiction problems to then follow suit but then you get a better understanding wait a minute they went through all that shit it doesn't for anybody getting sexual abuse physical abuse it doesn't give them a free pass but when you realise that that's exactly what happened to them it comes down from a generation to generation did you understand your parents more when did you start to understand that they were fucked up as well for me James it was much later on it took me years until I got sober and really unpackaged all of that could I really start having any forgiveness for anyone for years I was just angry I was just angry with the world I was like if the people you love treat you this way then what is the average guy on the street going to do to you so you need to be the loudest angriest most unpredictable young man if you're going to survive I never said that out loud but that was the message I got in my brain so forgiveness was so far away from me it wasn't until years later when I got sober and I believe I had to make a decision I don't believe you can be on both sides of the fence you've either got to be on the side where you're building people up or you're tearing people down you can't be both and so that was one of the biggest lessons I had to learn and I found it in finding forgiveness for myself funny enough James when I've tried to forgive myself for all the things I've done and I realised I was innocent when I come out of my mother's womb I wasn't a bad person then maybe the same goes for my mum and dad maybe they were innocent as well What age was the first thing you went to prison? I was 16 years old 16 years old it was probably about a month or so after the arm robbery case and it was the same thing again it was a rugby night in Twickenham always a tricky night for us rugby nights because loads of loud drunk rugby fans getting loud, aggressive etc and that was a night where the attempted murder happened where a group of rugby fans got racially abusive to my friend and a fight broke out and it just went too far the guy who racially abused my mate got stabbed in the throat the face and the throat multiple times and that was it we was all arrested I had the previous arm robbery charge and they said who done it and I went no comment I lived by that bullshit code of the street you know just loads of bullshit you know and I kept my mouth shut and I didn't grasp my mate up and he went no comment so we both went to prison and I'd done a length for time on remand for him until an eyewitness come forward and said it wasn't the white kid the white kid isn't the one who done the stabbing that was it like being in prison at that age was that a wake up call or was that the free pass I'm a gangster I'm becoming a bad boy where you thought that was a life people can go to prison and either walk about with a swag and think it's cool other people go fuck this I'm never come back here again yeah well it was funny James and I don't say this to be like egotistical this was my mindset at the time when the judge said you're going to be offended and I was excited and that was because on my council estate when any young lad had come out of prison there was like a party he was like celebrated like a celebrity he had loads of street credibility so in my mind as a young lad I was like going to prison is actually a cool thing you come out they have a party girls want to be with you your street credibility goes up so in my mind I was like great yeah let's go let's get it done and you know that excitement was very short lived you know when you when you arrive at felt me on offenders and you get put in a cell and the door closes like that's pretty much it there's nothing much more to it you go out and get your food three times a day but it's 23 hour a day bang up and so you know I went there with an excitement but I left with a desire to never go back there because of you know what happened whilst I was there what happened well I was you know back then it was the population it was about 80% black and I was a young white kid young 16 year old white kid you know with a pretty face you know and it was I was a target you know I looked like a kid who grown up from a very well to do family you know although I hadn't that's what I looked like so I had to prove myself I was constantly trying to prove myself I looked around and I realised you know okay I'll just stacked against me we're outnumbered the white kids are outnumbered you know so you're going to have to work a bit harder to you know to not get bullied you know and I basically I thought I don't have to win I just have to fight so it was a bit of a knucklehead mindset you know instead of sort of ducking and diving using my mouth to my advantage I just thought if someone brings it to me I'm going to respond with aggression but you know it was a wrong strategy and you know I my first fight in there was in the showers you know naively my first time in prison you go into the showers everyone had their boxes on and I never understood why and when I put the shower gel on my on my head and I put the shower gel resting on the shower in front of me whilst the soap was in my eyes someone had nicked my shower gel and then I realised everyone stashed the shower gel down their boxes right so so that was my now this is my first moment what are you going to do here Michael you take this they'll probably try and take your food next so first fight happened I asked where the shower gel was and no one said nothing and I resorted to saying so whoever's got my shower gel go eff your mum and there was a guy on the wing called Pepsi he was the toughest guy on the wing a young black lad they called him Pepsi cos he was small and stocky like a can of Pepsi and yeah he come out what did you effing say about my mum and we had a fight and it was just like luck of the draw you're rolling around in a slippery shower room you know it's like whoever gets the first couple of punches is just luck of the draw and I got a few punches on him and after that everyone thought I was this crazy white kid you know when really it was just a lucky I got a lucky few punches on him you know I wasn't tough for anything really and um you know I lived off that I lived off that hype for a little bit but I knew in the back of my head I was like as soon as Pepsi gets an opportunity he's going to get me back and it came one day when whilst I was in on the attempted murder I had another court case going on for assault on police and I went to court for that and I didn't get back to prison until really late and the day prison guards knew keep Maisie and Pepsi separated but the prison guard had switched over to the night guard so when I got back the night guard said I'm going to put you in the dorm and on every wing there's one dorm which is a four man cell and I was quite excited I was like great put me in the dorm I'll have a bit of new conversation new people to talk to and I went in the dorm and it was Pepsi and two of his mates and it was a tough moment when I walked in I wanted to straight away make a run for the door again but the governor slammed the door and he was off I was caught in the headlights a little bit I was like it had been a couple of months since off scrap you know you're not sure if it's still on or not but it was still on and Pepsi played it cool he waited until lights were out and I laid there on my bed for what felt like hours trying to reason with myself you know you're an idiot don't go to sleep you just got to stay awake and in the end I just give up and I said fuck it I'm just going to try and sleep and I just I remember waking up to a pillow over my head yeah pillow over my head while the other two were just battering me really you know and that was like when I look back at one of the things that made me never want to go back to prison that it was that moment it was that moment where I actually thought I was dead I was like I'm going to die here in this prison cell they're going to kill me you know because it went on and on you know no one could hear me screaming you know the beating just went on and on it was only because my cell mate I was banged up with a guy called Dred he realised I hadn't come back to the cell and he called the governor and you know other people in the cells were like saying fucking get him shouting so you could hear something was happening and Dred said called the governor he said is Maisie come back he said where'd you put Maisie is Maisie in the dorm he was like fucking get up there and get Maisie out of there and that was if it wasn't for Dred my cell mate I reckon I would have died in that cell have you ever came across that gay Pepsi I've never come across Pepsi no I've seen a couple of the lads I was banged up with but I've never seen Pepsi no I mean it would be that would be a tricky one for me seeing him you know because yeah that's probably one of the most traumatic events of my life that experience you know were you taking drugs or anything unpleasant at that time not really the odd bit of weed here in there if it was someone's birthday and someone one of their relatives or girlfriends brought in a bit of weed from but not really it wasn't like when I was banged up it's not what it's like now you know when I go in the prisons and I do my workshops and talks in prisons now it's like everyone's on spice everyone's on all sorts of drugs but back then in Felton it wasn't like you'd get a bit of weed but you wouldn't be getting heroin and crack and all sorts of all that sort of stuff so what happened when you get out then so that was it mate I got out and honestly James I had this firm believe me I was like I'm not going back to prison mate that is me I'm done I'm never going back there it was like I was so convinced in my I was like I'm never going back and the problem was I'd been gone it was probably like 5-6 months of my life I'd been gone I had no GCSEs and I had a criminal record of farm robbery on it and it was like any employer you just got to be honest because they're going to check right and so I went for all sorts of jobs I started with jobs that I really wanted and then I went to jobs that I sort of could tolerate and then I went to just a job just any job to survive just any job to survive and it was just no no no and all the time I'm getting these knows I've got older kids from my council estate and here you go Michael just take this weed and just sell this weed like you ain't got no money just take this and give me the money because they was all like no one's going to try and rob you because I got street credibility because I've been to prison so I'm battling getting knows and I'm getting temptation in this year and my last chance to loon the last choice in my head I thought if everything else fails I'm going to join the army I'm going to go to the army and I'm going to say just use me as cannon fodder put me on the front line in some war zone just like a disposable force I was like I just don't want to go back to prison and I went to the careers office in Covent Garden and yeah I was open about my firearms charging they pretty much like immediately was like it's not going to happen mate it's not even worth you doing the written exam just mate it's not going to happen you're not going to get into the army if you've got a charge for firearms we're not going to give you a loaded firearm and I tell you James that for me in that moment looking back in hindsight that for me was you know you talk about a crossroad in your life that for me was like the only way I could go was life of crime now because I tried all these jobs I'd even gone for the most basic jobs and then I tried a cannon fodder unit and got a know there and for me it was like I can't do it I can't live a legal life and maybe it's just not destined for me I grew up with you know we'd hear like oh it's just a gypsy blood you've got a gypsy blood life's hard when you're a gypsy I sort of had this sort of ingrained in you that life's meant to be hard it's meant to be a struggle because you've got gypsy blood running through your veins and I think in that moment it was like maybe it's true why should I think I'm any better than all the men who went before me maybe I'm just destined to live this life of crime and that was it I went back to my council to stay I started getting into crime selling drugs and I was back in prison again you know shortly after you know other offences and then I come out the second time and the same thing again the second time I didn't even try and get a job mate I was just like it's pointless I just went straight back to crime and then I went back to prison a third time but the the third time was really sort of where the rock bottom for me happened the emotional rock bottom you know because when I come out of prison the second time I went to get back into crime and it was sort of around the late 90s and crack and heroin had hit everywhere in London everyone was smoking taking crack and heroin and a lot of my friends were like now we're not committing it doing robberies or anything now we're just selling crack and heroin there's so much money in crack and heroin everyone was doing it even like the rich kids were taking the heroin so he was like great so I was like that's what I'm going to do I'm going to be a dealer but you know I'm a drug addict and I've got an addictive personality so I was a terrible drug dealer you know I used to just take it all and then have to commit crime to pay the guy back now there's a good side to that because you know my time at a prison ended pretty quickly I was straight back in but this time I was back in as a fully blown addict heroin addict physically dependent on heroin and that was when I had my first suicide attempt was in fact among offenders when I was when I was put on the hospital wing and they give me two choice of detox they give me it was like a 14 day or longer detox or a really quick one like a really quick detox and I was I thought it wouldn't be that bad I said give me the quick one let's just get this over with and all I can say James for me it was like hell on earth in a prison cell I was in a single cell detoxing from heroin I had visions of stuff in the room I was hot one minute freezing cold the next minute and the fall of suicide was included in my mind and at first I was like don't be so stupid but then as the time went on and we got deeper into the night it started becoming a real you know logical escape from what I was going through and I'd learnt how to do it from another inmate who killed himself you know we figured it out he cut up his bedsheet and he ripped up the bedsheet he had a rope and put it around the bars and that was it you know you know this moment of where I'd given up where I was like I genuinely thought I'd tried to be better than older men who went before me and my father and everyone and I just thought I tried I couldn't do it How did you get older? It was just by pure luck mate you know on the hospital wing you know the prison the prison officer used to go around throughout the night like just open a flap on the front of your cell door just peek in just to check your still life because everyone on the hospital wing was detoxing from some sort of drug or they had like mental health problems some sort of It was like suicide watch yeah but also you know as people like probably like I was detoxing from heroin who you know you don't know if they might choke on their sick or they might start being sick and then they choke on it whatever and so they come round and just check the flap on your cell just check you're still alive basically and you know it was just at that exact moment he decided to do the rounds you know the prison officer now if he had started on the top floor of the wing or on the left hand side of the wing I would have been dead or I would have had brain damage because by the time he would have got to me but he started on the ground floor on the right hand side my cell was three doors in and he came and I was hanging there I was unconscious and he cut me down they'd done CPR on me and the next thing I remember is seeing a bright white light and it was a light on the ceiling of the prison cell you know and that was it you know as soon as I was breathing all signs of life they carried me by my ankles and wrists and put me in a padded cell and that's where I spent the next sort of week to week to ten days I spent in a padded cell and that for me was where the there was something in me died in that padded cell you know this this desire to be the toughest, strongest, loudest unpredictable kid died I knew deep down I was a scared little boy who just wanted love and it really became apparent to me in that moment James because they called my mum and said your son almost killed himself you should come and see him and my mum come to visit me and I went out to the visiting room which is normally a place where you like to act tough you want to show the outside world in this gaff no one can mess with me all this macho bullshit but I went out broken you know all my neck was all bruised and I sat in front of my mum and my mum said to me I didn't want to tell you this until I know I was serious about it but I'm going to AA and I'm a couple of months sober and I looked at her in like astonishment I could see there was something different about her I thought she was on some new anti-depressant or something and I just broke into tears just broke down crying my eyes out in the middle of this visiting room and that for me was a clear sign of like I've let go of what everyone else is thinking of me and I just want to get better I just don't want to live this life anymore I don't care what all the other inmates think of me anymore I just don't want to be this person anymore I don't want to live this life anymore and that's the hard thing about change is when you become at the broken point and you either decide you want to fight or you want to quit and it can be difficult especially if you're in prison but if you've got bruises around your neck if you're seeing your mum trying to change then you're thinking I've got two options here I can go back and kill myself properly or I fight and make changes to better my life because I just think if you had died a few seconds away you wouldn't have your kids or if your wife you wouldn't now be helping others what was going through your mind seconds before you knew your life was going to end is it a blur or do you know what you're doing can you remember it? Yeah I didn't want to die Do you think it was that people always say I scream out for help but if you don't know somebody's coming to save you then you were fully blown going to take your own life was it tears or was it numb? The prison officer only comes round every two or three hours he's just checking every two or three hours so the odds of him finding me and that's why I'm not a religious man but I do believe in God because there were times like this I should have died he could have chosen to start upstairs on the left side of the wing I wouldn't be here today so I do believe all of this had to happen for me to be doing what I'm doing today How long did you have left of your sentence? Well at that point I was still on remand because I went straight to prison as a heron addict so I still had all these cases Was that still yours? Yeah still my offenders All of it is in felt my own offenders but it's funny I was so desperate to end it James to the point I was like I cannot bear this cold turkey any longer and as soon as I the rope tightened around my neck instantly I didn't want to die but I realised it was too late I couldn't get it off and you go from trying to pull it off to then realising it's too late to then thinking about your family and your mum and your brothers and sisters and that was the saddest part is like I wish I could have been better for them That's the scary part I do a lot of suicide work with Chrissie's house and when people come in with the burn mats they get the exact same feeling when people have jumped off bridges and some have survived the instant they take that step the thought comes through their mind I shouldn't have done this I want to survive I've never been to that side Suicide has always crossed my mind through life I think fuck it would anybody miss me if I was here but I've not got the balls to follow through with it but to do that and then have the automatic feeling of saying I've got something to give everybody's got something to give in life no matter who you are, no matter how fucked up your life is you have got something you are here for a purpose to even be born is billions to one you're already a winner so it can be difficult to get in these positions where you think the only option is to take your own life it must be scary but then you become numb to do that it takes more balls to kill yourself than it does to actually stay here and fight it takes more courage I believe but it's scary because the numbers are rising as well through mental health was there a lot of people committing suicide in prison at that time when you were there there was one guy who I knew personally who committed suicide and that was just through bullying he was a white kid a very good family he went to private school and unfortunately if you're a white kid who come from a good family and felt them back then which was 80% black, you were a target the odds are you were going to get bullied a lot and he did and he got bullied and he ended his own life now that's only one that I knew of but there was lots of other stuff where things like me being put in the cell with Pepsi I could have been killed then and then a few years later there was a young Asian lad put in a cell with a white racist guy who killed him and I think the prison system at that point was going through this period where there was a huge influx of inmates and not enough staff to deal with it so I don't know the statistics on the suicides back then but I think a lot of deaths could have been prevented back then what did your mum say to you when she's seen the band max do you know what James I can't exactly remember I think from what I recall she was really building up to tell me this big news about her being sober I feel like it was like a big deal for her it kind of killed her pride a bit because she's coming with good news but then seeing us in but she would have passed and probably blamed herself also which must have been difficult even though the fuck ups that families in that happen like we spoke about earlier they know that sometimes people know but everybody wants to change when you're an addict every day I was gambling every day I was taking coke or smoking weed I wanted to quit every single day she's never had the courage to say no so it can be difficult so if your mum's coming with good news and then seeing her son partly she would have probably thought if I'd been a causeress I don't know this is where I think there's a higher power working in all of this stuff because exactly the same time I was getting nicked and taken to prison she was just on her journey of AA getting sober so it was like if she didn't get sober at that point and then come and visit me when I was at my lowest maybe I might have tried to kill myself again she was coming to you as the strongest she'd come to me and the one thing I wanted all my life was just one sober adult to be there for me just one sober person I could count on for some solid advice and when I needed it the most she showed up to felt my offenders and the conversation that day was after I'd stopped crying we just held hands and it was just I'd reverted back to this young boy who just wanted the love from his mum that's what I became I was like this 17, 18 year old kid but I was a little boy who wanted his mum's love so when you got out of prison because you went AA very early in 18, 19 18 I went to my first AA meeting I went to my first AA meeting in Ashford Hospital they used to have AA meeting in there it's not there anymore part of me went there because my mum was she was newly sober it's like when you're newly sober you want to save everyone so I was like I don't want to kill my mum's excitement so I'm going to go for my mum and I went to the meeting it was on a Friday night I was like God what a waste of a Friday night sitting in an AA meeting but I couldn't deny it although these people were a lot older than me a lot of the stories they were sharing I could relate to but I had this strong thing in me that was like come on mate you're 18 you're not an alcoholic in my mind an alcoholic is someone who sleeps on a park bench who wakes up in the morning and the first thing they do is drink and I was like that's not me I'm not an alcoholic so I was in denial that when I drank I'd done really stupid stuff and when I drank I'd end up using drugs and if I used drugs I'd end up doing even more stupid stuff but I was in denial about it or it hadn't got bad enough despite everything I'd been through it hadn't got bad enough and so I thought I don't need to go to meetings I don't need to get a sponsor and do the steps I'm going to go and try this I'm going to exercise more I'm going to do boxing I was searching for all these things to try and fix this problem that didn't mean I'd have to stop drinking trying different types of alcohol I'm not going to drink spirits I'm just going to drink beer I'm not going to drink Stella though I'm just going to drink Fosters actually I'm not going to drink any beer or spirits I'm just going to drink Guinness trying all these different methods and eventually coming back to the same it's got the power over you I just can't drink like normal people I was just saying with the gambling when you're trying to quit okay I'll keep it trying for a Saturday and Sunday but it never worked man it was a 24x7 cycle just constantly trying to get money to get that fix that's crazy so when you came out a prison then because it's a star young age to be wanting to work on yourself very young age there's usually a point the majority of people I speak to have went to meetings as usually but for ages of 20 and 35 there seems to be a massive transition where people kind of awaken and they've got the crossroads where they think fuck it I want to change but for you to be doing that at such a young age shows that how much pressure in your mind the constant battle the constant chaos to then it shows you your character as well to want to do that young and your love for your mother just for you at the start like you said you've probably done it for her because that's how much you cared but then you realise once you started to hear other people's stories you probably think because I used to go to GE meetings and I think fucking state of these people I don't want to be here for 30 years I look at them and I think I'm not as bad as him look at him they're all the same boat any of it's got the power over you you're an addict and once you come to that conclusion and realise you don't have the power because as we spoke earlier I'm constantly bad constantly every day no matter how well I'm doing or what I'm doing it's a constant good and evil battling up my mind mate I'm the same and that's the reality of it you might look at me on Instagram and look at the great life I have but mate it's not always a bit of roses for me I still look in the mirror sometimes and see this little criminal who had an underprivileged background he'll battle with his voice if I deserve everything I have even though I've worked so hard for it and that's part of it am I willing to really look in the mirror at myself am I willing to stop pointing the finger out and start pointing the finger in and saying are you going to get responsible for your life and that for me was the real turning point in my journey on sobriety because I had lots of great excuses James I was sexually abused I experienced many cases of neglect my dad left before I was one I had lots of reasons to justify why life was so hard and I should drink alcohol and take drugs my life was so hard look at all this shit I've been through and it took someone who was brave enough to say I don't care all that stuff that happened it's not okay what happened to you you're going to let that ruin the rest of your life because in you ruining your life you're ruining the life of all the people around you who are slowly watching you crumble what happened when you were in remand did you get a sentence I never got a sentence no was that the last thing you got was that the last thing you were in prison all my time was on remand I always spent a lot of time on remand most of my teenage years up until when I got out the final time what age were you just before my 19th birthday and then what was your transition like then because I know 285 was a big turning point 25 was when I really threw the towel in that was when I really got sober what was the ages I 19 to 285 like for you were you still dabbling were you still feeding aw mate it was it was this thing of like can I drink like normal people can I have a few pints you know I'd look at my other mates who I went to school with who at that point got driving licence and cars and apprenticeships and they'd go out on a Friday and have a cup of beers and enjoy themselves and I'd look and think that's what I want I want their life I want to go out on a Friday and have a cup of beers wake up Saturday maybe go and do work and then Monday morning I'm right as rain was I'd go out on a Friday and if I took cocaine the party wouldn't stop until Saturday morning and then Saturday day I'm recovering and then Saturday night I'm back on it probably until Sunday morning which means Monday I'm hanging I'm not ready to go into work so then Monday's a sick note and so you can see like over the course of a year a job isn't going to tolerate that your career is not going to go anywhere and that's what it was from 19 to 25 one step forward two steps back and in the end it was just like oh my gosh I'm sick of just scraping along the bottom of life barely existing I'm sick of it and that was it for me that was when the change happened when I was like I need to take accountability for my life stop blaming everyone else and getting sober was the first step for me am I willing to address my alcohol and drug problem and go to meetings and really do the work get a sponsor do the steps stop getting accountable stop blaming everyone I was great at blaming people I was great at making excuses how did you leave how did that change your mindset 18 to then getting older and doing the 12th step how was that feeling for you did you feel a much better person did you feel more in control of letting go of your demons because one of the steps we spoke about earlier in the car is going to meet the people who you've done wrong to for me James it was one of the most difficult but one of the most empowering processes of my life for the people who don't understand that process when you go to AA it's optional whether you do a program called the 12 step program I chose to do it, I've done it multiple times and one of the steps of that program is that you go back to the people that you've harmed and you say sorry and you know for me James it was there were certain people who I harmed who weren't welcoming of my apology they were like if I see you it's on don't be mistaken Michael you can take your apology and shove it where the sun don't shine but then there was there was other people who when I said sorry to them they said I always knew you was a good kid Michael but I could see the life you had to go home to and it was moments like that where I realised these were real people I hurt they had real families they had real lives and I came into their life and I committed one crime one moment of madness and it had a massive ripple effect for them and I made a lot of them apologies and after I'd finished them all I was like I'm never going back to that man I will never go back to the person I used to be I will never hurt people anymore and that for me was this sort of moment in my life where I was like this is what side of defence I'm going to be on I'm not going to be on that side where we resort to violence or tear people down I'm on the side of building people up and being a good person and a law abiding citizen and that comes with its own set of problems James being a law abiding citizen you know because you know when I set up my business I set up my business in the middle of the community I grew up in and I had lots of scraps lots of people when I was growing up and when people got released from prison there was conversations that needed to be had there was one conversation in particular a young lad got out of prison and he was like he had a beef with me and he was like bruv you're lucky I don't come shoot up your shop and all of this stuff and I remember I don't know whether to say it or not but he was a Muslim lad there was a mosque not far from from my shop I haven't mentioned his name so he can't sue me and I remember going back and saying right what am I going to do these guys threatening to shoot up my shop you know and my mentor at the time was like well what would a law abiding citizen do he's like I was like I guess he'd called a police and he was like well you'd better go and just have that conversation with him so then next time every Friday he'd go to the mosque so I went out and waited outside the mosque and he was there with his men so listen come here listen I don't live by this bullshit code of the street anymore let me tell you san if you shoot up my shop I'm going to get you nicked that's what I'm going to do I'm not going to come out here fighting and screaming I'm not going to try and shoot you back I'm just going to call the old bill some of you make threats I call the police and that was like a moment for me of like okay that's what a law abiding citizen would do that was never an option for me growing up for me the police were always the enemy and that was something I had to unlearn is that look the police have a role and a job and not all of them are bad in fact most of them are good the ones that I've met so you know there's stuff like that James which you know often isn't spoken about in terms of you know changing your life really changing your life that was one of the biggest things out to overcome is that actually the police aren't the enemy was that difficult then to being the bad kid, violent, aggressive to then be then like I say I'm going to tell the old bill I'm not going to fight your violence I'm not going to get a gun but I'm going to tell the old bill how is that the people calling oh he's a little snitch or he's this and he's that because then as you say becoming good becomes a new different wave that you need to deal with whether you're good or bad you're always going to get hate no matter what so how you deal with it is how you react so how did people's reactions then become that okay he's a straight pig he's just I'm not going to give him any more shit because he'll basically fall in the old bill and you know it's sort of I know it done the rounds of the community I grew up in and most of the people got it already they was like look Michael at that time I was like four or five years sober I had a business you know a successful business I went to work wearing a suit it's like I'm not that guy anymore I'm not that guy you can come and threaten me with shooting up my business I'm not that person anymore who's going to get a gun out and fight you back you know and it really cemented for me that belief in myself is that I'm not that person anymore I do things differently you know I don't just say it I actually I actually live it you know and these little moments in my life were opportunities to prove well how much have you changed Michael really how much have you because this is a great opportunity to see are you just talking to talk or have you actually changed Michael because you can really prove it here now by not resorting to your old way of doing things and that was it for me you know and it was you know but the sort of hate and the gossip in you know it really took off James when I got the award you know I the first thing I'd done when I got sober and I haven't spoken much about this but I would go into prisons and give up my time for free share my story in prisons and I'd done it for ever since I got sober you know and then back in it would have been 2014 it was one of the local residents nominated me the Metropolitan Police have this award once a year where they it's called a community safety hero award where they nominate random person of the community for this award for their acts of kindness and service to their local community and um and anyway I won the award in 2014 I won an award from the Metropolitan Police right and that was where the sort of the gossip in really started me on the front of the newspaper with the chief superintendent of the Met Police getting an award you know everyone was like oh there you go look he's definitely across now but you know it was because of the voluntary work I was doing in the prisons you know which I still do today but it's um this is part of it you know when you change your life we live in a society here in the UK I'd say it's probably not as bad in the US but we love to tear people down we hate to see people do well we love to point out their floors and I think it needs to stop because if we all came together we'd be so stronger so much stronger if you point fingers to people there's always free if you point a finger there's always free pointing back it can't be difficult but this is life it's not mean people it's just life you just need to learn to deal with it absorb it and move on I think that's why suicides on the rise as well I think social media plays a part in that with people not feeling good enough not feeling worthy people slipping into addictions, depression especially with the lockdown as well I always say it was kind of just winging life even doing a podcast what is it really I try to promote a positive message but I still question everything like it's crazy that no matter what you're doing life you're thinking is it right, is it wrong it's weird the way humans are built we're built for comfort we don't like being out of the comfort zone but that's what the growth is when you're put to your tests when you're backed into a corner I'm always backed into a corner where I've always come out swinging but you just think what the fuck is it all about man do you know what I mean see when you're going through your chains that your relationship with your mum gets stronger that she's stay on the wagon my mum's great my mum's almost 20 years old she's an inspiration we're so close my mum is, we're so close now I tell you, I'm so proud of her for the life she had to where she is today but it was funny because in some ways it brought us closer together it also pushed us a bit further apart at times why was that it was really the sexual abuse I'd kept it a secret all these years because I carried the shame I was sexually abused by a man I made it mean all this negative stuff about me I wasn't a real man there was something wrong with me so I carried the shame it was his shame to carry but I carried it and obviously when you get sober you can't you can't bury stuff anymore you can't use alcohol drugs to make you forget so every now and again I'd be reminded of it and you know my mum didn't know about it and neither did any of my family and so it became this sort of thing where did they believe you not at first no I mean to this day some of my family are still in denial about it but my mum eventually come around to the idea and there's overwhelming evidence he'd done it to lots of other kids and was eventually murdered on the streets of Belfast so eventually it was all proved to be true but for a long time it caused this divide because I didn't want to I didn't want to tell my mum about it I thought if I'd tell my mum she might go back out and drink I didn't want that and I didn't really want to admit it myself I was like if I open this can of worms around what happened am I going to go and drink again where am I going to be is my head going to be so messed up I can't go back and so I tried my best to just forget about it but the divide between me and my mum got bigger and bigger until I sat down and I really unpackaged it and looked at it and really I realised James how much it was destroying any relationship I had you know the problem was is that someone very close to me hurt me and betrayed my trust so now as an adult when people are trying to get close to me and earn my trust I don't trust them and I can't let them get close to me because I'm worried A you're going to hurt me or B you're going to see how messed up I am from all the abuse and you're probably going to run a mile so I'll reject you first so at least I've got some power over this situation so it is affecting any relationship I had lots of trust issues and you know it got to a point where I was like I need to look at this I really need to look at this what happened to me as a little boy and you know that for me was one of the most difficult journeys I went on in sobriety you know how do I work through this without using alcohol and drugs as an emotional crutch to get me through How did you work through it then for anybody watching who has maybe been abused like I say when people because I had the Barbara Hoheron who I always mentioned she released a book at the hospital the doctors used to get the vulnerable kids from broken homes they had a checklist because then if they've got the vulnerable kids at addiction used to take them into psychiatric ward sign them off as crazy, some of these kids were running away tearing the police the police wouldn't believe them because they were already signed away as crazy so then the police used to take them back for more misery and more torture these doctors were killing the kids abusing the kids using MQ Ultra and Barbara Hoheron thought she was a fantasist and it all came out in the wash that it was all true so we knew there thinking I don't want to say anything because I could potentially drink again I could push my mum to the drink again and then when you do tell people nobody believes you so it can't be difficult it's a whole effect of that but it's very brave and proud of your brother for coming forward and for anybody watching what advice would you give for them if it's happened to you I want you to hear that it's not your fault what happened to you is not your fault that would be my advice for years I thought it was my fault I thought maybe I was naughty maybe I was a bad kid maybe I deserved it maybe that's why dad left you know and that was the hardest thing I had to lift because if you believe that you're bad it's very hard to let anything good in compliments good things in life so good things in my life would come to me and I would have a desire to tear them down and I had to realise through a lot of digging deep that it wasn't my fault I was an innocent little boy I was an innocent little boy and I had to remember that innocence and forgive him how hard was that to do it's probably one of the hardest things I've done James you know it wasn't just me he'd done it to other kids most of them I knew you know but the anger it was just eating me up it was eating me up I just couldn't carry it anymore you know and we've done this we've done this piece of work where I found forgiveness on my uncle was on a there's an organisation called ClearMind International ClearMind run self-development workshop similar to what we run and we run this workshop went to this workshop with him and it was about helping me find forgiveness for myself forgive myself for all the things I've done wrong and it traced back to when I came out of my mother's womb when I was born was I a bad kid then obviously you're not a bad kid I was an innocent little kid right well maybe my uncle was as well when he came out of his mother's womb and then life chipped away at him bit here took here slowly slowly chipped away at my uncle until the only way he could cope was by sexually abusing other kids doing to other kids what was done to him and so in finding forgiveness for myself I found forgiveness for him you know and in that it was then my opportunity to share this message to give other young men hope who've suffered this because it's it's a stigma around it when it's a man abusing a man you know and it's not your fault and the shame is theirs it's not yours to carry how did life progress after you started forgiving you started letting go realising it wasn't your fault did you feel a sense of relief the pain will still be there but did you feel better if something was lifted when she started understanding it wasn't you there was a thing James that I had right where whenever I met a woman I was great for three to six months you'd get a version of me Mr perfect this guy is great you know but as soon as you got a little bit too close to me I started putting walls up and that was a reoccurring theme in a lot of my relationships until I met my wife and my wife just you know I'm so lucky to have met my wife man you know she done a year counselling course so she had a little bit of knowledge about her and she was like in these moments that really feel quite perfect I feel you cut off I feel like you want to run I feel like you don't want to be here but actually everything is beautiful and that's what led me to go in and look at the abuse I was like this is affecting this now I'm in my mid 30s this happened when I was a five year old boy and it's still with me I'm still carrying it and one of the byproducts of doing this work and the forgiveness is I was able to enjoy the moments with my wife I was able to let her get close to me and not feel afraid not feel full of fear How did you drop those barriers to progress on to the next stages by that six months to understand to become completely vulnerable that's why I believe all my relationships break down because again that three months barriers come up I find excuses to end them because I'm so paranoid and insecure getting hurt and broken because a broken heart is the worst kind of thing to go over, one of the worst anyway because it can mentally scan you for life but it's to break down those barriers and be completely vulnerable that it's okay to be hurt it's okay it happens it's life but as men we don't want to face it we'll pretend men are weaker than women I believe women are the strong ones they're the ones that bleed life so men be a man that's bullshit be a woman not saying cut about dresses whatever but if that's what you like sub to you right but for a man it's difficult because I believe we are so sensitive every bad my lab and I've viewed some of the baddest men on the planet and you'll see the insecurities and the vulnerability with them and it's difficult because we just want to be loved as you said at the start of the podcast you just want to be loved you want a cuddle just to be told everything's going to be okay but it is so difficult because we're all living in a very fast paced world but how did you get through how did you manage to start dropping those barriers to let your wife in I brought all of my mess to her so instead of saying I'm going to let my walls down and let you in I just said okay look here is all the mess when you get close to me this is what I'm battling with I'm worried you're going to hurt me I'm worried you're going to reject me so when we have these lovely moments and you're sitting there completely at peace watching a romantic film eating a box of milk tray in my head I'm worried don't get too comfortable Michael this is all going to turn sour she's probably going to hurt you and when she really sees the real you she's probably going to reject you that's what I'm battling I'm battling all this stuff silently here on my own and when I said that she said well that's refreshing to him because I thought maybe you just weren't attracted to me anymore and you know in the middle of that it was like all of me and all of her met for the first time connection and that was the most intimate I'd been in my life I'd never brought all of myself to a woman ever in my whole life until that moment in my mid thirties rejections are massive part on male figures abandonment issues rejection because we're all scared we don't want to feel pain in her well we're all hurting at some degree no matter who you are in life, no matter where you're sitting no matter if you're sitting in a castle or a tent we're all hurting we're all kind of not sure what the fuck's going on I don't know if it's just me but there's always a sickie feeling that something just not quite right about the planet or what's happening on here like maybe we can brush it up or you'd get a successful podcast or this or that but when you break all down it doesn't really mean anything ok you've got a bit of driving a bit of self work but there's still something within that's not fulfilling enough where it just doesn't feel right I don't know where it is that's why I do all the cold water stuff and the mountains because that's when I feel alive even doing the podcast this is where I feel free and Paul Gascoin says that when I had him on a couple of weeks ago that he felt free when he was on the park for 90 minutes I feel free when I'm doing this because you're not looking at your phone your mindset's not anywhere else you're in the present moment connecting so it's a beautiful thing that I love to do yeah and mate I you know I disagree that it doesn't mean nothing James you know you could probably have any celebrity you want lined up here but you give people like me a chance to share my story and I believe there's something in you that wants to give back that wants to be of service that wants to help and that is important that's what the world needs we need fake celebrities to sell in all these get well products overnight we need real people with real life experience to give people hope and we don't get that unless people like you open the door so it does mean something yeah I appreciate that that's all you need sometimes is hoping and a lot of people get inspiration every guest no matter who it is we'll try and promote some sort of positive light and positive message not to make the same mistakes to understand that you're not alone which is very important we're all battling but life is life and tomorrow mean you're up the mountains we're going to do some cold water stuff let's talk about the CIP stuff yeah sure so you know I've volunteered in prisons most of my sobriety 13 years you know and I decided to set up a proper organisation a non-profit organisation where I can use my skills that I've learned to better my life to help others so I go into prisons mainly in the south of England and I deliver one two day workshops transformational life workshops where I deliver some of the work that's work for me and we run workshops outside of the prisons as well for general members of the public I run workshops in schools as well and 90% of it is not for profit so it's completely voluntary and it's my way it's my way of giving back you know that's what I do and I got to a point in my life where it would have been very easy for me James you know I moved to Devon I bought 10 acres of land kids were going to a good school you know I had everything but there was something in me which I think you've got as well is I want to be of service I want to give something back I want to help and that's where I really thought I set up the CIP project and CIP stands for change is possible you know and I think that is you know the message that I want to communicate because growing up in my community there wasn't anyone who'd really turned it around you had a couple of people who might have had a job but they still sold weed on the side and they still cheated on their wife you know and what I really wanted to demonstrate is that it actually changes possible you can go from a criminal to a law-abiding citizen you can go from an addict to being sober you know like you can go from a broken home to being a loyal husband and a loving father so that's what our work is it's about helping and giving back so if anyone has heard anything in this podcast and they are struggling reach out I'm really active on my messages on Instagram and I know during this lockdown a lot of men especially men are struggling I get lots of messages and just talk just reach out and talk the common theme amongst many of the men who've committed suicide is that they felt alone and I want you to hear out there whether you're male or female actually if you're struggling you're not alone you can reach out and talk and we'll try and help where we can Friends are one of the biggest actors on the planet Tom Hardy how did that relationship come about it was just by chance really you know we met I got sober I'm from Isleworth and I got sober going to meetings in Richmond and he lives in Richmond we just met we met there back when we first met he wasn't famous and then a couple of movies later suddenly everyone was stopping for photos and it was incredible really and Tom for me and I credit Tom in my book because in terms of having someone who he's had his own difficult ease growing up he's quite open about that someone who's had difficult ease and then literally chased his dreams and smashed it he always stood as this beacon of light for me if Tom can do it then maybe it's possible for me so Tom for me he's just been a beacon of light and always encouraged me to push higher and been supportive and you know he does a lot behind the scenes for helping people that he often doesn't get credit for he's a really inspirational bloke honoured to call him a friend that's the kind of people you want surrounded with winners and work ethic because you tried acting as well do you think that was like I said, they're doing this podcast as a bit of freedom but you're doing acting as well do you feel that was a get out as well to be somebody else because you look at Tom Hardley's parts as well they're very extreme imagine it to be very tiring and draining Daniel Day Lewis they go deep into her character method acting it's next level shit that must play a mental part we always speak about it, about balance how did the book Young Offender come about because that's what two years nearly two years now it's been two years in July it was I got the award from the Met Police and then there was a bit of a media storm around that and then it was really just Tom actually inspired me to write the book to be honest with you really when it gets to the nitty gritty of it lots of people said write the book and then one day me and Tom was out canoeing on the River Thames in Richmond and he was like, you written a book yet mate I went what? I was like you think I should write this book? he was like, yeah mate I think you should write it and I was like, well fucking hell if you think I should write it maybe I should write it and it was weird James hearing it from someone like Tom was like maybe I should really pay attention to this maybe it is worth writing it and that's when the feelers went out and I signed with book publishers a publishing agent and he pitched it to Penguin and Pan Macmillan and they both wanted to write it and we went with Pan Macmillan because they said it felt like Penguin were going to glamourise it and make it this exciting gangster novel sort of thing and it didn't glamourise that gangster life there's nothing glamorous about that gangster life it sucks you end up in prison you end up in prison you have a load of mates who claim they're your brothers who never write or visit it's rubbish and so Pan Macmillan said if you sign with us we'll tell the truth so I was like great signed with Pan Macmillan and here we are it's sold I think about 13,000 copies featured in the best seller chart and I've been blown away by it really whenever someone reads it I get a nice message from people and it's lovely it's been a lovely experience it's been a little bit of negativity you've had people who have been jealous who want to try and tear you down and stuff like that but that's been the story of my rise anytime I've done something good and succeeded there's always been people in the way hating trying to tear you down assassinate your character that happens in life every time you level up that's why it's not just a case of having a talent to succeed you've also got to have the mindset to understand to block out the outside noise to block out the criticism everybody's got an opinion and that's fine but you've just got to keep rising keep raising the bar and success is a beautiful thing when you start achieving it but when you become successful you want to become greedy so it becomes a fine line don't miss the journey I always try and remember I always say to Nick, enjoy the journey when we're travelling and we're going to meet guests because I'm constantly thinking I'm trying to create a story I'm trying to create entertainment I'm trying to create so many things to sit across from someone and connect boom we're on how can we help others how can we promote messages how can we change the game it's constant and sometimes it's tiring because you get drained from it but now I'm starting to look more after myself mountain climbs, cold water exposure because I know you're a fan of Wim Hof who I've had on the podcast massive fan of Wim I've done one of his training workshops with him back in 2018 or 2017 so I've met Wim he's just like I've never met anyone like him he's just like he's got a vibe he's got such a vibe you feel light energised around him he's an incredible guy and I think just to come back on the point you made about doing all this stuff someone once said to me with this work that you do out in the public eye trying to share a positive message but you don't see where the ripple effect ends you invite me on and someone reaches out to me and I support them and they get sober and now their wife has got a sober husband their children have got a sober dad where does that ripple effect end and I think that's one thing I always hold on to in the middle of all this we're busy, we're doing a lot but you're causing lots of ripples positive ripples in the lives of other people giving people like me a platform here and then me sharing my story openly and honestly not glamourising anything and that's the best thing we never glamourise anybody but it's still good to understand it's good to laugh as well because we spoke about Jordan Peterson psychologist and he had the nervous breakdown sometimes we can just search too much and just forget to drop everything and just laugh just laugh man so many things too seriously become honest with yourself life can be beautiful, it can be good there will be battles, there will be struggles happiness is not a 24-7 thing that is an illusion, you can't be happy 24-7 because there's always issues, bulls, kids where you're going to get food from how you're going to play, what you're going to do next we're not built that way we're human beings and human beings have a full range of human emotions so we're not meant to be happy all the time we're meant to experience all these emotions and the key for me is like can I experience all my emotions in all their levels of intensity and not use alcohol and drugs to numb them out and that has been the key and the art of my learning how to live a sober life I watched one of your videos there was a thing that you do with your wife you used to do it quite frequently at the start I think it was going to be every night or every second night you'd switch everything off and there was a discussion what's the benefits of this for me that's how we really learn the art of intimacy intimacy for me growing up was sex shagging I was like that's intimacy isn't it and it's not intimacy if you break the word down is into me see so I'm going to let you see into me now how do we do that is to turn off all distractions so you know I turn the phones off TV off radio off any distraction off we set a timer on our phone whilst our phone is on airplane mode we set a 10 minute timer boom you're on my wife goes 10 minutes and all I do is listen and when she's finished we start a timer and I go but I don't jump in responding to everything she said about the dishes blah blah blah blah we just check in how are you doing how are you feeling and we use I statements so anything that starts with you just scrap it I statements so always start the sentence with I and you know slowly you start to remember the person you fell in love with you know I'd forgot James you know like I met my wife I knew the moment I met her I'd marry her I fell in love with her straight away beautiful heart kind spirit and I got sober and I set up a business and I do voluntary work in prisons and slowly slowly we stop talking we stop communicating and we start disconnecting and you know people who I talk to who their relationships break down I believe is because you stop doing stuff is connecting like you forget the person you fell in love with and that process for us another process which was given to us from ClearMind International Dwayne and Catherine O'Kane who are experts in the field of relationships I believe if you have any relationship problems seek out Dwayne and Catherine O'Kane from ClearMind and they pass that on to us have a check in so simple eye contact and talking you know and it saved our relationship it was it's something that we go back to I'll be honest it's difficult now you've got two kids and a newborn it's tough to get no distractions but occasionally we do and we remember I see you you're the girl I fell in love with four them years ago it's good though because as much as we can talk all that stuff I've educated myself so much over the last six years and reading books and doing everything trying to become a better person but it's still difficult it's hard to take your own advice like somebody can come into my life who's maybe depressed and down addiction problems I can help change their mind don't help them change instantly but I can plant the seeds where they start seeing the world differently I know this but sometimes I can have my down days and I don't put it into practice myself which I kick because I'm going you know this so stop talking shy and get it done because it's hard to make any sort of changes because the subconscious mind they'll just take control again 95% of their data is controlled by the subconscious so it's to do change it is difficult but it can be done your prime example it can be done and prime example it can be done sometimes we can be very much a worst on critics just looking for flaws and flaws because we're always wanting to improve so you do your own podcast and interviews and stuff as well yeah I mean I've got a podcast it's called the CIP podcast CIP obviously same as this change is possible so I try and find guests who've overcome a big change in their life and yeah I'm on Instagram and Facebook which are names just make or maes just my name you can get the book you can get the book on Amazon waterstones I think any of the retailers in my experience the most best value for money so Amazon yeah and I think I've brought some free copies for you James distribute them as you like yeah we'll do it, we'll do it something on Twitter retweets the benefit of chance they won the books and stuff for anybody that's watching and they're struggling right now what advice would you give for them reach out reach out and talk we're at a period of time through lockdowns where the government has forced us to isolate the opposite of isolation is connection we also live in a time where social media and zoom and other platforms make connection possible from our living rooms so reach out talk if you're struggling don't struggle alone reach out to myself or any of the guys who work with the CIP project because we're a group of men, we're not gurus we're not saints, we don't have all the answers we've just found a new way to live and we can help because I'm going to come to one of your retreats what kind of stuff is it we do here I trained in breath work so we do breath work we do native American sweat lodge we do cold water therapy we do shadow work we do processing there's lots of stuff lots of powerful stuff that will help you really be the person that you want to be so you're digging deep everything's natural was it like to finish up on anything brother? I think just thank you James thanks for giving me this opportunity and you know I'm grateful for it keep doing what you're doing Michael, absolute honour brother you're a good man can't wait to see what you do for the rest of the future brother God bless mate