 Thanks for the audio check Tim considering I was the disaster of audio with my awesome rig on your very first podcast, I appreciate it. Right. So just two minutes after just give another 30 seconds or so and then we'll jump in I've got a few things to share with you folks. Christine is assisting me she runs one of our businesses and is an awesome help. She's already advised and Christina once in a while you can drop that into chat to remind folks as well, those who just joined new don't see the history historical chat. If you have any questions fireman chat or use the webinar q amp a. Why don't we just get get things started off and get moving. I'm talking today about what happened in 2021 I will try not to mention coven more than I just did. As well as what's happening what we're seeing coming in 2022. It's been a pretty crazy year in many many fronts. Yeah, a quick intro a what I would call the major happenings now I would say major highlighted in red for a reason. One is I'm going to miss some some that's intentional some of it was right. Totally forgot that happened is 2021 seem to be a very long year, as well as what's going on 2022 the trends to watch and q amp a, as I mentioned send them in through chat or use the zoom questions. Christina will monitor those and and likely interject in the middle of the presentation if necessary, if warranted. I'm just a quick, who, who, who is this guy. If you don't know me, I'm Darryl O'Donnell founder and president of continuum loop where a boutique consultancy focused on decentralized identity, aka SSI self sovereign identity. Typically operates ranging from minor tiny not minor tiny startups through to the largest of organizations including big financial institutions governments military large corporations, not for profits and various different NGOs. Also, you may have seen some of the information that we created which is the wallet report which was dropped a couple years ago. And if you haven't read it I suggest you get the SSI book which chapter nine is the wallets and agents drum and read and I authored that and and editing and 90 page report down to apparently says largest chapter, but it's a, it's a big topic, but that book has been very very helpful for many. I don't know why that's animated as much to copy the slide. Quick summary of what we'll talk about then I'll go into the detail we're going to talk a little bit about good health pass the SSI book that governments are slinging code now. The ever name acquisition and the launch of checked. You'll see why each one of these is important and I kind of on a different theme each and every one of them. It's also why I selected these kind of five topics is the 2021 topics. First off, good health pass collaborative. This was an effort that kicked off I guess it started off in late 2019. In relation to something that caused a travel shortage or travel halt globally, and it said I wouldn't mention it. But really part of the question came on and Charlie Walton who will play it again and in this story was a mastercard at the time, and was trying to basically help the world understand. What is the digital identity. What does good look like the good health pass collaborative was established and and really it's primary use right now is aimed at enabling international traffic. International air traffic. You have a real problem when it comes to digital identity identity in general when you're talking about that specific space, add in. I'll say it, add in COVID and you get a really weird mix. You have nation states who are beholden to no one issuing passports. That's a really well known thing. You know I chaos involves and that's a well known process, but now we have to carry along health credentials that range from a scrappy piece of paper through to a QR code that only works in the country of issue. Do you have a real problem of how do you merge all of these things together. So what the good health pass did is is help build a blueprint that shows how we can get to a global level solution. And really I look at it as a blueprint for general data sharing. Yes, it was focused on international air travel with the health ramifications and health requirements, but the same patterns apply broadly. So it was issued in mid 2020 2021 sorry, and it became kind of a good guide for what are the pieces that are needed all the way from governance. I led the trust registry side will talk about trust which is a bit more later. And what we're going to need as far as the standards and where they are the standards and specifications and protocols that are necessary to wire this beast up and it's a very complex beast. And what I learned out of it most was the value of going in and not talking. I'm one of the founding members of trust over IP. The governance part of trust over IP is hard. It's also really hard to take a look at and think about all the details you need until you go through a really complex and concrete example. So we actually invested many months of time from continuum loop into good health pass and came out of it and then we've now been assisting if your clients on lighter aspects of governance because we're they're not trying to solve a global problem but they are trying to solve a regional or smaller scale some are actually going full regional for global. The blueprint itself is great document of how is what's the starting point parts of it are still awaiting the standards to to to finish I'll talk to that in a little bit. And we're seeing examples where people are looking at it the shape, the size of it and using that in different spaces. One of the things we learned was missing was this concept of this trust triangle we've been talking about for years is that it's wrong. It's missing and it's not a triangle and the trust register critical explain that quickly it's the only detail we're diving into this one. And if you've been to prior webinars you may have seen some of this so just bear with me won't take long. When we talk about the idea of issuing a credential from an issuer to a holder. So let's say the government is giving me a health credential that says I got a vaccination. credential. And then later I need to present that to a verifier. So I need to go to a restaurant on a very nice simple case, or I need to pair that with my passport along my travel credential to get on to a plane to leave the country. And the idea here is that the issue is to me, I presented to the airline, and the airline needs to trust that issue. But how do they know to trust the issuer. Good health has really exposed this deeply. They know on passports, who to trust, I KO manages all of the keys for that. There's a very rigorous process and we don't see country standing up every few days. Where things fell down quickly was even inside of a country. Is this lab real or not. We saw tons of fake stuff. Governments pushed out paper that was easily no security features of any kind. So how do you prove this stuff it's really hard so the verifier realizes, I don't know if I can trust the issue. And that's a real hard question to solve when you only have this triangle. Charlie Walton again, the gentleman for Mastercard he's now at a vast again they'll play a little bit later. Realize that we needed that governance authority to say hey listen, there's an issuer here and we put them there. We manage the list of issuers who are authorized who are sorry authoritative for a particular type of credential. This lab is okay to issue a PCR credential. This country is issued by managed by I KO to issue passports. Similarly we may have we may want to limit the verifiers of what types or how they may ask for a proof as an example. I may limit those people who are allowed to last sorry allowed to ask for a full driver's license. I may let anybody ask for proof of age of majority using a driver's licenses are not getting my name phone number height weight birth and God knows what else is in there. This is through a governance framework the governance framework sets the rules by which the governance authority manages these, and that's the critical part. And that is where the trust registry falls in. This is managing side of a trust registry will get into the detail of that a tiny bit later. Another big big thing that dropped in May and I, it felt like it was a lot longer ago because I keep. I keep showing it off my my autographed copy from drama and and telling people to read chapter nine which I wrote. And I just do that too often it wasn't that long ago. If you're looking for it it's available through manning press you can Google SSI book self sovereign identity book. It's the only one that comes up that I've that I have found. I've found depending on who you are what you're doing. There are chapters that are absolutely critical for you to read and layer chapters which won't mean a damn thing and they're confusing as heck. That said it is by far the best resources, best resource out there, I would recommend reading the wallet and agent chapter there as opposed to the report, unless you want the extra detail. I've seen if you make a note as well will. I've already got a note on the trust registry webinar will add the wallet update we did one a few months back on that too. So you can have that in hand. I'm not going to talk too much about gain gain is the, I don't know, go global assured identity network out of the if the international. Institutes of finance. Basically, this is the biggest banks on the planet, issued a large federated system that is aimed to try and simplify digital identity. I bring it up just for completeness in that it's a, it's kind of an old school approach it's definitely not a decentralized it's more centralized. But the goal that they have there is how do banks help their customers sign into various places so instead of signing with Google or Facebook that you can sign in with your banking credential. This has been tried on multiple country levels I'm not sure where it's going to go. I jokingly referred to those who are old enough to know spinal tap I'm like this is, you know, if you adjust the gain on an amp you can say in spinal tap terms you know ours goes to 11. Let's turn on from that. Another neat trend that happened is that governments are actually slinging slinging code. In a couple different ways, globally speaking there are at least 10 different governments whether they be a national or regional product provincial state level that are either coding directly, or enabling. So one of the projects we advise on is a Canadian prevention province that's working with multiple provinces to work towards not yet but work towards issuing digital identity credentials. They're exploring the technology, seeing what the bounds of it are, looking at the overall framework and seeing what it would mean to issue to a citizen. And as another example, Germany has got multiple projects they created at least two ecosystems, leasy and ID union, where they're not coding directly, but they're helping fund and inspire startups and large companies to build out and follow a particular pattern. So they can start seeing what does it mean what does it look like in the wild. And other countries Netherlands Finland, at least 10, as I mentioned different government bodies now they may be in the same country. But what's interesting is they're all doing the same thing. They're taking hyper ledger areas and hyper ledger indie as the predominant solution. And I look at that one during what the heck is going on. It's interesting to see because I've been involved with both areas and indies since before they were called that. I remember the agent to agent discussion which became areas and indie was sovereign and before that it was ever name and no play again later. But I was wondering why, why are they doing this and there's really two different trends that are happening here, one of which is data sovereignty. And Christine if you can just make a note of this too. The government of the UK government and Canadian government have really good policy pieces issued by government on why open source helps as well as what the concepts of data sovereignty mean. But the kind of my quick summary of data sovereignty means that the country, the nation state is recognizing that in some aspects of what they're doing. They cannot lose control. They cannot trust that a vendor will come in and say we're open standards were interoperable. And know that they're not going to be one tied to and or held back by the vendor and the vendor for that matter may walk away from the space and leave them hanging. They're asserting and requiring that they both learn, as well as execute to a certain level so that they are in control of what they must be in control of my motto, our motto is always being controlled only what you must influence the rest. They need to control this one. This is one where losing control means you have absolutely lost control of the beast and you may be stuck forever. I'm looking why hyper ledger areas and hyper ledger India. The answer really there it is it works well enough. It is sufficient to get the job done. It lets them look and explore of the user experience with the citizens, what does it look like to ask for a digital driver's license if and when you do that. What does it look like to be offered a digital photo card if and when you do that. It's a really weird user experience when you go pure digital. It's not the same as handing someone a card. What if you hand them a physical card and a digital credential so they're looking to do this but also wanting to understand all the deep crypto behind it the security behind it how do they recover how do they revoke things. The hyper ledger areas and indie frameworks allow them to accomplish that. I think they're also seeing, which I'll talk to in a second, some convergence of things so that they know that this is not a dead end, that there are similar pathways that they can take that may not be a one way road. Big story happened and it was funny. One of the companies we advise was talking a Matthew globe from northern block was talking to Charlie Walton had a vast, barely the day before this was announced and Charlie's just I mean, don't ever play poker with that dude. No hint that things would happen the next day they announced the acquisition which obviously that kind of thing doesn't happen immediately but I have no insider information on it at all. I honestly have stayed away from my close friends, until at least after this to get the casual type stuff but I have no insight. But my thoughts are, I'm looking at why would a vast a consumer I think they have business in some enterprise stuff but largely speaking consumer security play. You know I used to be a hardcore users when I was a window guy of AVG free I think that's them. They've now, they're also merging with Norton life law. You know, you're going to require something like every name. If you read the wallet report or go to the wallet webinar. You'll hear me talk about a couple of things that scare the hell out of me one of which was wallets is backup and recovery. I need to know that someone is going to can help me recover the things that I lose. I'm deep in crypto. I am terrified of losing my keys. I have no idea where I put some things yes it I should keep them in the safe guess what I found one thing hanging out the other one. Why was this there I almost threw one out. I have thrown out keys. I mind a Bitcoin a long time ago. No idea where it went. If I have a partner who is doing and helping take care of my security. And if you read the wall chapter. It's actually called digital walls and digital agents. I need someone help take care of the mess that digital identity is already become and will get messier in some ways much crisper and cleaner and logical in other ways. But I need people to help me with that maybe that's what a vast is looking at. That's what the biggest gap is is the wallet and how it is backed up and restored and protected. The reason I say protected is if your recovery process is weak. That's where you get attacked. You're only as strong as that step in your in your overall security protocol. Last one here I think is checked launched in in in 2021 checked is really the first native token enabled SSI network. I mean you can run identity on on any number of ledgers. But like sovereign which runs on hyper ledger indie now. The network was created to support identity, not as an incidental this supports identity. There are other networks by the way we have one client that's working with Cardano, working on Cardano that is similar but it they have you many many things. It does identity. It does identity on cosmos which by nature itself is intended to go cross chain so that's awesome flexibility. Additionally, it is hyper ledger areas compatible. It because it runs on anchor to the cosmos chain not to indie, but because it's areas compatible this means we can start using the same thing as honestly layer one, where you have sovereign where you have in Canada there's a Canadian network being stood up that governments are going to run in time who knows where that's going to end up. You really don't want to care about layer one. You want to know you can trust it. You want to know it's a cure. You want to know this going to be it's highly reliable. And then you want to forget about it and let the Uber geeks worry about that little bit because it should just work and be very boring honestly. The cosmos is an interesting network as I mentioned it goes cross chain allows for more baked in interoperability. They're focused in and for disclosure than the load here I am an advisor for check and I do run some nodes, because we have customers couple reasons, we have customers asking where is this going. How, if it's a if it's a token enabled network how does a customer who doesn't want tokens play. It's like okay, we have a fiat gateway we need to know how to do that and how to work on that. But additionally it's understanding where are the SSI the self sovereign identity. Use cases. So imagine that holder being issued a credential and maybe having to pay for it may be being paid to hold it a verify potentially being paid but there's value being transferred. When you're using these credentials some people in the SSI space consider that to be anathema everything should be free I'm like good good luck running. That said, I think the SSI space can get to the point where where there's real value added. There is an expectation that some of that value will be extracted into the network, which ideally will be more diffuse. So we're looking at the SSI the web three crypto web three and crypto, talk a little bit about trends as well. They're, they're recognizing that, you know the not your keys, not your token, not your coin solution is great except keys to an address being identified solely to you is problematic. And they're starting to recognize that there's other pieces here so so check this taking a look at this, how does identity fit in with other stuff, and just general use cases where it's the performance network and the preferred choice because it's cheaper who knows. They launched a test net and may not may not launch I think in the end of November. So, let's change topics here actually pristine you said there was a question. Sorry yeah we have a question on trust registries. Just want to know do you foresee these registries being run in a centralized or decentralized manner. Do you these think of any leaders and what business models have you seen. Awesome. I like these questions. We'll probably mispronounce your name but Moises that the the registries are going to be centralized and decentralized if you take a look at as a concept as an idea. The good health pass just the health credential side of that. There is nobody in charge, yet every country has an authority somewhere. And they may have deferred authority to another country, but take just Canada and the US as simple examples, both of which they're really yes there are national authorities when it comes to pandemic response. But I think both of them largely speaking and there's some health budget at the federal but both of them are. They have, there's more subsidiary control provinces and on in Canada are in charge of delivering health care, similarly states as well as the private system in the states gets even more unique. So we get into the who's certifying the labs and stuff. In every case there's likely a centralized body that's certifying that list of labs list of health care providers. And if you look at lawyers and professional engineers and accountants I'm a professional engineer. My license is managed by professional engineers Ontario. There are the authority by regulation and legislation to manage licenses. So, there's likely a whole bunch of centralized is a decentralized group of centralized agencies. But down the road, you can imagine a virtual a truly decentralized trust registry, perhaps on on reputation on who's a good KYC provider whoops, I'm clicking my mouse here sorry. And that that can be both centralized and decentralized. As far as who's leading. There are no tech leaders right now. The groups that are leading in my view in our view a continuum loop are the ones who are already aware that governance is very important, and maybe able to point to places where the governance is already there. For example, a prior client is the BC government. They have issued credentials now for multiple millions of of corporations that are registered in British Columbia. They are by legislation and regulation the authority at the federal level we have corporations Canada, they are the authority and they can issue that and that's already covered, because they have a mandate to publish corporate registrations. How they publish it. Well it's on a website, you can get your print out if you want it you can have an embossed paper if you like, and you can have digital credential that already exists as far as the, the, the leaders and who's doing it. And then business models is a really good question this is something we've been working on with several groups is how do you work inside of an ecosystem so that you can start the ecosystem up. And have it sustain itself. And this is where we're looking into what's called you know high value credentials where there is a value to someone. Won't name the client but they got a call from a health insurance company saying, Listen, we know your, your customers are doing KYC, and they're holding your credential. Can we just ask if someone has a credential we don't want their account number we don't want their name. We just want to know that they are holding a credential issued by a financial institution. We're like, Yeah, we can do that but why you said we have so much fraud that we're willing to pay $5 to $10 because that saves us so much time and money that will do it. I was like, huh. So the business models are really shaking out typically there's many what I've seen and we've worked on many. There are a lot of this should be free, and it's correct, but there's also a lot of groups who do derive direct value and are willing to pay. The problem is if they don't have to, if everything is free, you have a problem you have a problem supporting the system, if it's mandated and funded perfect. I'm going to jump on to the next little section. We've got a question here to from Tim. He wants to know are there any sector agnostic trust registry protocols and or standards yet, or is the generic concept still very early days. Yeah, there's a Tim trust over IP there is an early stage protocol that only does three things. It allows you to ask a trust registry is an issuer authoritative is a verifier authorized. And that's really the two main questions that start the stuff in our trust registry webinar from the fall. And again that'll be linked is linked in here elsewhere. We do discuss the next stage, you know, what are the credential types in the ecosystem who's allowed to see what what proof requests are normal, but we're not there yet so it's the is the issuer authoritative is the verifier third one. Do you trust this other trust registry. So I could say to hey Canada, do you trust the US trust registry for health credentials yes, cool. All that does is give a signal that says Canada is says says is both trusting them and willing to say they trust them, which gives a signal that to another player that maybe this one is useful to go into a 27 times and get to this, they're probably trustworthy, but it's very early days to your point. And that one is at a version one and just going to the community this quarter. They do here, so it trends to watch. We're going to talk a bit about this convergence I was talking about a little bit about standards and some shake up that's happening. Well some convergence specifically in credential exchange that's that we're seeing anyone who's heard me talk about premature interoperability, we're still there. But there are good, good pieces coming out and through the questions that have been coming in trust strategies are starting to become much more urgent. And this is something we realized in during the good health pass effort that it was really important to nail these things down because no one could answer the question do I trust this issuer. That's why we spent so much time and effort on it. So soccer tiny bit about orchestration and convergence. This is sort of a soft topic I don't have a lot of crisp things but what I'm sensing and seeing and hearing hearing a lot, especially on podcasts is, it's really interesting to listen to a podcast is talking about pure crypto wallets. Talking about security of those and someone saying, yeah, we're kind of realizing that as I mentioned earlier, we're realizing that having just the private key tied directly to an address is a problem. It is to identifying. There is no you can call it pseudonymous but the minute I have tagged you I now know you for the rest of your life if you're using that address and everything that happens upstream and downstream of your particular crypto sitting in that wallet. They started talking was an e 16 z who's deep into web three now, but they're one of the old school VCs from Silicon Valley. And they're now talking about decentralized identifiers being a good way to separate the addresses from the person and or the identifying information that's necessary, so that we don't do things like directly tie an address to a KYC credential and personal information that we've now we can never get away from. So we're starting to see people are recognizing that when you add in governance. People are recognizing if you look at the web, the crypto space I'm not going to call it web through the crypto space. The hardcore crypto space you know initially was you know burn the government libertarian that side of it was you know not your not your keys not your coins. So here are the ones who are starting to recognize who I don't want to hold my keys I don't I certainly don't want to hold my keys. Hey I need some recourse if this thing goes sideways. In some ways they're rebuilding some of the financial and banking infrastructure on top of web three. Why it's because of the social contracts and stuff that we need. It's because of the governance we need, because it's not the same as handing. I just to accept an offer for my house. It's a process to go through it for for the monies to move into an escrow account. Check all the boxes then move it over here. I don't want to do that with just single press of a button and I might screw up. We're starting to get these things being rebuilt. Some of them are far faster and better, regardless the governance is tying and converging on top of both generic blockchain and crypto, as well as the identity side. There's also been a bit of a standard shake up this kind of comes back to it's an ongoing battle started in last year but it's ongoing. The W3C, where it did and very public credentials have sat for multiple years. I was actually in the room when we were discussing where should it go and I don't like being right but I was right on this one. There's a fight right now on whether did are being accepted because there's over 100 different did methods out there. So the big browsers, Mozilla, interestingly enough, Mozilla Foundation was the prime driver and Apple and Google were behind it as well. Google a little less so saying you can't do this this thing is is is way too diverse. The thing is if you look on. I don't know who does it I am a maybe who handles all of the little methods the HTTP HTTPS FTP SFTP, blah, blah, blah. The ones that handle all of those, there's hundreds and hundreds of those of which you in your day to day life use handfuls. It's exactly the same as things were back in the original web, yet they're fighting against it. Why, because they're browsers. They think the browser is a wallet, it's not. Another shake up is starting to happen right now in discussions is that the W3C credentials and this is one where we're not I'm not sure where this is going to go. There's no direct way just to formally tie a credential to me that I'm holding it. You do it using a subject identifier, and then you need to know what the subject identifier even means and that it's me, and we immediately have correlation. So there's no immediate way to do some of the privacy preserving things that we've all been talking about. And it's been very difficult to get changes through on that. So it's going to be some probably some churn over there is my guess. And it's especially these governments who are who are who are jumping in are recognizing a standard space is that they need to understand wallet security, as well as differential security meaning, how do I have a wallet that can handle multiple levels of assurance of credentials. How do I ensure on the wallet security side that you haven't had a family member, take your phone over without you knowing. Or that that a credential has been moved, it was backed up and moved to someone else's wallet. Kids nowadays are asking for people's expired driver's licenses, because it's an easy way to get into the bar if you're underage. There's a digital concern that because you can make that a lot faster if you especially we don't have holder binding. And if you will if your wallet allows movement and backup of credentials. There's also some shake up as well as convergence what's really interesting is the hyper ledger areas and wacky packs which is over at deaf I'll talk about again. They're different. They do the same thing ish. But they're starting to I think recognize that that that this is a good thing that they've kind of come to the same answer and interesting enough hyper ledger areas and the patterns in wacky packs, or exactly what the governments are pushing one to the next level credential exchange specifically that last little bit there. So we're seeing the same patterns form. When I issue a credential to you I need to you either need to ask for the credential. I need to offer it to you and then we have this back and forth that happens behind the scenes ideally, you don't want to see this in the computer it's really really boring. The dance that occurs to finally say okay here's you you're you okay cool put that in your wallet. You got it. Thank you. Good issue is now done and disappeared. There's an action between the holder and the verifier that says, yep, hi, how do I talk to you do I do you present a QR code to me do I present a QR code to you. Are we doing Bluetooth. Am I getting a text message from you how do we start talking. What do we how do we go back and forth and it looks so simple in this arrow. This arrow is really messy. This is back and forth and the verifier says yep cool I got one oh and the verifier may ask hey listen. I don't want your whole driver's license I just want to know that your age and majority so you can drink, or I just need to know your citizen of this particular country, and you're good to go. All of these things have to be figured out. What's really cool is in how do I miss my slides here. So how do I ask for and get and share the credentials. I think the major areas and wacky packs as as as something that's happening this year because I believe this is when it's really going to happen to shake up between the two. They're doing the same thing. How do I get you a credential. How do I use a credential. We get into the trusters beside in a moment you know how's the verifier know that that's really a bonafide issue. But they're talking about exactly the same exchanges. They're making very similar things now there's going to need to become a shake up moment when they come in say listen. Here's how you do wacky packs on hyper ledger areas, or here's how you do wacky packs with a test suite hey areas is up to you to comply. And I think we're going to find some of that back and forth in between both hyper ledger areas, which is that hyper ledger at diff is wacky packs, which wacky packs by the way stands for wallet and credential interface presentation exchange. It was called killer whale Jell-O salad at one point in time that's a IIW oddity that I really don't understand. But what's cool is they're starting to talk and starting to see how do we do this together. And the patterns are so similar that it's like watching going okay cool you're doing the same thing just get your get your ish together and let us know how the standard is. Talk a little bit about interoperability those who know me know I've been talking about premature interoperability and premature standardization a lot. It's really early days on interoperability. The, there are many different pieces here that are problematic the one I just described you the credentials exchange is hard. It's not done. In other areas there's a test suite that people regularly fail and like, oh, right, I broke it again. Go multi protocol now you're into a mess but here's the funny part. You tell me you're going to give me a w3c credential I'm immediately asking okay cool what type. Because there's at least three I count for depends on how you count them, totally different types, which have totally different aspects of privacy. They're changing from, there is none basically I give you an identifier that correlates me everywhere and I give you all the information can't hide anything through to their zero knowledge proofs, which allow me to hide things I don't need that can say hey listen I'm over 21, but I don't have to give them a birth date, and I'm not going to show you my name type of thing. There's this spectrum of them, each of them are different. And actually doesn't actually fully work yet because there's still some crypto issues to be solved. So just that thing, the the the here's a credential I'm not this is a coaster well use it as a potential great coffee by the way, rampage coffee I don't not associated to them, but I drink my body waiting and all the time. If I give you if I say I'm going to give you a credential you need to know which of the four types it is that's cool that's big picture. What are the attributes and where the hell do I find them. How do I know about them. There's a lot here. They have that whole exchange thing which gets messier even faster. But if you take a look at the, what am I doing in my ecosystem, you can simplify what I would call points of interoperability. How do I take a particular credential and use it in various different ways by verifiers. A good one would be this is a health pass a good health pass where I can walk up and people can know the other green check mark isn't just a graphic. It's not just like an NFT gets JPEG. It is actually backed by something in our wallet our wallet saying, yep, good to go. That's interoperability is at the point of point of engagement, and all the pieces that have to happen that's the only places where interoperability one is worth pursuing right now to its achievable. Now, anything beyond that you're whoever selling you something is, you know, it's problematic. I'm going to talk a little bit about trust registries and see if we've got any more questions that are going to come in please do drop them in. So trust registries were mentioned actually I realized they were mentioned back in 2019 in the wallet report. We mentioned as something was happening last year. But I think the trust registries are really coming into their own this year. And that is we're involved with multiple projects that for business reasons have to deploy trust registries this year. They have started out small enough, and this is inevitable. We're working one project where the network is a defined set of entities and it's by virtue of being on the network, you're good to go. So we can't suddenly have a high school student issuing a driver's license because they can't even get on the network to write to it. I would I would be the high school student in issuing fake driver's license by the way I'd be the acting as the slowest state or and or province, because I would just make sure I stay ahead of them. The difficulty with these trust registries is the minute I just say, okay cool it's a closed network. No one else can get it. Oh, but this guy's really kind of like us but not quite. I would give the analogy of his governments. I mean can we have things called crown corporations. It's an agency it's a corporation owned by the government, typically operated under a not for profit basis, but it's not government. It's an agency of government. It's not a normal corporation either. So it's not like it's a bank. It's, well, the Bank of Canada would actually be I'm not sure if it's a corporation. Canada Post is an example. Some of our nuclear agencies. They're really government like, but the minute they got on the network I now have to ask questions. Oh, okay. Some non government folks are on here even though they're pretty close. And then the minute you go the next step further you are now you must have a trust register because you cannot possibly know everybody on the network. This is the analogous to the days of anyone has seen the diagram that shows the nodes of the internet has spots in Utah has spots in California is only about 660 different connections or something like that. It's the same as that everybody literally knew everybody. And then everything went sideways when it got too big to manage inside of your brain. And you have attrition of people. And once you get into thousands, tens of thousands, millions of people, you simply can't do it. And that's how we ended up with this internet we have right now it has no security based on identity at all. So what's happening is it's formalizing I realized my specification word is now covered by by trust registered by the diagram. And as Tim asked the question, we do have the specification going through it only answers the first three questions, which are, is this an authoritative issuer is this verifier authorized and does this trust or three trust that other trust registry in a particular context. The next steps are. How do I know what credential types are valid in a particular trust framework. How do I know what presentation requests, how do I know what wallets are valid. That's actually a big one right now with the governments is the wallet side. There's no easy answer to say oh, anybody can put out a wallet in the wallet report. I think in the book we talk about whether we can trust Bob as well it's why I need to know can I trust that wallet in the trust registry. I'll be pretty quickly on that but that initial piece. Excuse me. If you have that initial piece of is the issue authoritative is this verifier authorized and do I trust that other trust registry. You start to build the ecosystem properties. So this is also what we're finding a trust registries. Every single governance framework that we've worked on ends up asking the question well where do I put that information. Where do I put the list of issues. You can put them in a database, you can put them in a config file. But if you can't expose it to the outside world. You've missed the point. And by the time you need to put it in a database that is the outside world is your problem. So we're finding that every single governance trust framework project we're working with is stepping into. When will I deploy and who's trustworthy will I deploy. Good news on that is if you're building a good governance framework of how does an issuer get into the system. You have all the business stuff figured out of how do I know you're a bona fide lab for this particular type of test, who's the accreditation agency, what are the rules for getting you in. How do we get you out. If you don't pay your dues when do you expire all of that stuff. So adding an API called it says hey is this issuer trusted to issue this credential type under this governance framework. Yes or no. That's actually really really easy. So adding the protocol support is really really easy. Ensuring you have the management and the governance and the trust framework behind it is the harder part. We do have a webinar back from 2021. You may want to, I guess it was to remember, yeah, it was September or so that we'll link to in the in the notes that we provide afterwards, the deck dives in deeper into the trust registry side. That's principally it. So do we have any more questions, Christine I think we had some that were pushed in beforehand. Do we want to look at some of those. Yeah, yeah I have some here. One of more one that was most interesting to me. What scares you the most about 2022 and beyond for SSI. It's still back up in recovery of wallets. The the the thought that in time I'm going to people aren't recognizing a couple things. So let's start with crypto wallets crypto wallets where you have to remember your mnemonic your, whether it's 1215 or 24 words depending on how you've done it. If you lose that you're in deep trouble. That's a given. We know that that's a problem. The problem with I did but when you have that if I lose my phone and I have my mnemonic I got to download an app. Type it in Spain full but I type it in and boom goes back to the blockchain or chains. Boom, I have everything I had, because my wallet is just a pointer it's just pointing at something and showing I control it has the private key for it. That's it. The difference with a digital wallet and identity wallet. It may have the only copy of the stuff, whether that is a driver's license now by lose my wallet today. I'm going to service Ontario to get a new one. I'm going to be doing in a digital space and governments are getting faster and better at doing that in an onboard online way that is secure that is going through the processes of validating it really is Darrell, not someone trying to rip off my identity. But what about other sort of incidental things I have a I just sold my house realized my ice maker is broken in my fridge. And I need the warranty that was in my digital was actually on my computer but I use the analogy was in my wallet I lost my wall. Well, how do I find that my case I was able to go to my email and find okay here's the vendor I can reach out to them and find out and they can help me hopefully. Otherwise I'm buying a new fridge. And that's scary in many ways because I get it. This is my world. Most people won't even understand that there's no apps that have a catastrophic failure mode in the in the real the normal internet world, we need to get past that my guess is we get past that by having. This is a terrible phrase in the web three world a trusted third party that I can rely upon this is my hand my hunch. Why a vast acquired evidence. They are to us trusted third party they protect people's devices, ranging from phones through to laptops to servers. That might be what they're seeing, not sure, but I need to have trusted third party the key difference is, I need to be able to move away from that trusted third party. That's where the decentralized word allows us to truly have portability. You'll hear you know I can download my Facebook information as Christine may tell you I'm not a Facebook person. I can download it. I'm a recovered software developer database guy, I can look at the file and say oh cool I can see what this is and there's nowhere to put it. Absolutely nowhere on the planet to put it other than Facebook. It's of no utility to me. I can't say hey that relationship with a good is. Oh, yeah okay that's that's Christine perfect well that's not going to help us doesn't help anything. It's a portable wallet that I say hey listen I've just changed law firms. My lawyer has my will. They're also part of my recovery network I don't trust the social network because if you and by the way if you trust me on your social network to help you recover your keys. Don't do it. I'm not I can't do my own. I don't want to do yours. But if I can go to my lawyer and my bank and have two of those parties both of which are legally in deep career ending trouble. If they steal my stuff. I really have a good good answer there. So that's really the thing that scares me I think the most still and it has for three or four years. So that kind of would lead me into the next question what about the MDL is the mobile driver's license I didn't hear you mentioned that Apple supports them now. Right. So Apple supports them on a technical basis but my understanding is they've held off and are going to be doing this quarter. MDL is interesting it's got a lot of really cool things. The coolest and most important of which is the fee is that in theory, I can use it without unlocking my phone. And that's pretty powerful. There are in the states I don't know what amendment it is First Amendment or whatever that are fifth that you cannot. And in Canada we have similar just we don't have a particular name for it that you know comes to mind. I don't have to unlock my phone. If it's if it's with a code I don't have to give that up to you. But if I have to do that every time I show you my driver's license I've already unlocked it and the cop takes it boom, we have a we have a whole different legal issue there. That's one capability that's really really cool. The rest is it's really proprietary. There are vendors who are running it. Which is great governments don't write their own stuff on this usually. They need to have the how do I do revocation you know image checking and all this stuff all the quality checks that there's a large vendor network that does this and does a good job that do the printed ones. When I issue that credential and it goes on to my phone. Yeah, sure I could show it to you again I may have to unlock my phone. But if you need to verify it. So imagine I'm pulled over in rural Ontario I just drove across Algonquin Park and regularly zero cell coverage. I've been pulled over there. They have no ability to check that. Plus, they have the full MDL reader software, which means I've now tied a vendor into the mix. And Ontario provincial police may have it, but what about the small town police. Do they have to now buy that new equipment. It's not open enough is my problem with it. It ties things into the vendors and it doesn't have enough of the controls that said it is a step forward and many many many different ways. Hopefully that helps. I got another one that was sent in here. Did you hear about TB decks and what square and block are doing. Yeah, Tim's on the call to. So I didn't realize it TBD X so TBD is like I guess the new business units to be determined. I think that is a money and identity. So that's part of that convergence as well as a bit of governance piece that square slash block and TBD this new business unit that may spin out in time pushed out that is kind of aligning the crypto world based on the business promise trying to solve which we have certainly in Canada. And I don't think it's an option in the states it's worse, but an internationally might be easier but just getting money to or from an exchange to work in the crypto space is really hard. It's really really painful you're either doing something dumb like paying 3% to use a credit card. You have to know how to do a wire transfer. It's just difficult to move money around TB decks. The intent is, how do they create an ecosystem that we can have someone who's doing KYC says and we'll say hey, yeah, I know who Darrell is. I get a small percentage of the fees that are ripping through the network, but I'll stand behind Darrell. But I get to move money to you, you need your own KYC provider, and they're creating a protocol to allow hey, how do, how do different institutions bid on this to either be the on ramp off ramp for the funding to be the KYC provider. So it's kind of a really cool, more structured approach to looking at this. We did something similar with one of our clients, bonafide CEO ledger, where we purposely separated didn't realize it was novel at the time. Moving money in between countries in particular we're looking at Virginia United States moving money specifically to a credit union for credit union in the US to credit union in Estonia. We basically credit unions, they're standing on their members providing the KYC they were the KYC provider but we weren't sending the KYC information with the payment. The payment was routed across and because of the weirdness of Estonia and credit unions, they don't have swift. We had to do it to an intermediate bank swift to someone, and then they use the thing called SIPA, so we have this weird ass payment rail, sorry for swearing. And the identity was on top what we also realized is it allowed us to do a lot more. I just got one of our other businesses, Christine you would know the business just got a $5 test payment from a customer from a government customer saying hey we just want to make sure we have your banking information correct. I did that three or four years ago and people thought it was a wacko. But they're about to send more than $5. That's the only information you have is can you please go check your account. Our model had hey I'm sending money to Uncle Teemo. Uncle Teemo Darrell sending you money you good with that yep and our wallets figured out how to do it swift to SIPA. And then it said, hey Teemo funds are there. As opposed to hey, Uncle Teemo oh it's middle of night never mind I'll come tomorrow. The instantaneous connection we have over the identity and comms rail, augmented the payment realm. Tim has commented here that for TB decks just add money to your identity blockchain and governance. Yeah. But for me Tim blockchain and money, I guess you have your money. Good point on the fiat side is not, not there but you have money to the. Yep, good point. Definitely will do that. Christine any further questions. We have time for one more here. It's kind of two but I can throw them in together. Where should I look for more detail on interoperability standards and how things are being put together and then what kind of goes with this why are you cynical about interoperability. The first one, I'm, I'm all I'll claim I'm biased. I am both a founding as well as one of the initial funders of the trust over IP foundation. The I would suggest going there and depending on where your focus is there's two different areas to look at. If your focus primarily on business and governance. There's the governance framework working group. If you're looking at the overall technical architecture and how it fits with the governance side. Look at the tech stack working group which I chair. The reason I point at trust over IP is its mandate is more on the, the business and orchestration side than on the developing of the particular standards. It feeds into diff for some work diff requirements feedback into trust over IP for clarification. It feeds into w3c to me it's a really good starting point. As well as the discussions aren't getting down into the bits and bytes necessarily. So that's what would be a starting point. The cynical part of me on interop is is this. If you can define what your interoperability problem is you may be able to achieve it generic interrupt is a farce. There's a reason why if you travel globally. It's a good idea to get an international driver's license every country outside of a very small few. You have no clue whether something is real or not. So we now defer to the CAA of the world to actually do that. I was involved in the GIS industry interop, which actually was we cracked the nut in the 90s. And what it did was reduce data costs by 90% or more. The reason that you can now see if you if I wanted to see a picture of someone's cottage before you're talking $25,000 like from above. Now it's free. I just zoom in on Google. That's all using the same standards. We haven't defined the frame of what interoperability is yet. So that's why I'm so cynical. People will point out we're intrapable. No, they're not simple as that. Got a question here from Brent. What's the biggest challenge or challenges the governments in Canada are struggling with on moving forward with digital IDs. I think the, I'm not sure that there's any sort of fatal challenges I think the, what I'm seeing is and I'm on the inside in some ways is they're taking the right small steps they're not trying to jump in without checking what the waters are. They're they're learning the hey this is a bad idea this is going to be a problem, as well as if we build something how do we get out of it because the government doesn't want to run a lot of this stuff forever. Some parts it likely will need to but that's only very few things. So I think they're doing the right things by exploring it just it takes time, it takes time to build that both institutional knowledge to understand how the policy cover works with the technology how the technology either breaks or supports the policy cover. So overall I think governments are. This is so new and different that the governments that are dipping their toes in the water to stick with that analogy, are the ones who are not as challenged in my view, the ones who are not doing it, they just don't have a clue what's next. Maybe that helps. We are Christine we're at time any more questions. No, I don't have anybody else who sent anything in that was perfect. Perfect, I've got to jump on to a board meeting, but folks. Thank you very much kudos to you for for for for being here, and please feel free to reach out. Hi, mostly Christine will get you the show notes, the, the overall links that we've talked about as well as a present PDF of the presentation, and we'll get that on on an email out to you in the next week or so. Thank you very much. Have an awesome day everyone.