 to this very important session that is live streamed about how to strengthen resilience. The last years have shown us that there is a high price if you are not prepared and if you are not resilient. We saw that during COVID and we have seen it after COVID. Countries are strengthening their supply chains. It is not anymore about just in time, it is also just in case. And we know that the economy is doing better than expected last year in Davos. Some people were even predicting a recession by now. Seems like the largest economy in the world, the US, is going to have a soft landing. But we know that there are a lot of geopolitical risks. And we are still not out of the woods when it comes to the economy either. The reason I am mentioning this is that it shows that we have to be prepared. We have to build resilience in a cost-effective manner. If you build resilience, it is also a good investment if it is done in the right way. We have a great panel to discuss this. On my left we have Mohammed Al-Jaddan, his Excellency Finance Minister of Saudi Arabia and G-20 country. We have Odieh Renault-Bazot, the President of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, EBRD. They have a lot of resources to put it that way. And then we have Bob Sternfeldt, his Global Managing Partner, the boss of McKinsey. And then last but not least, we have Madame Niembesi, Chair of Standard Bank Group South Africa. Great panel. Let me start with you, Bob, because we have had a great cooperation with McKinsey as a knowledge partner on the resilience. And last Friday we put out a paper with concrete examples from companies that have prepared well when it comes to resilience. So maybe you want to say something about that and maybe even position this better than I did in my beginning. So over to you, Bob. Well, Borges, first, it's just a pleasure to be here. It's a pleasure to have collaborated over the last two years on this topic of resilience in building out with you the resilience consortium and launching this new report. So I did want to just say a deep thanks for the collaboration and also thanks to all the panelists for engaging on this topic of resilience. I thought maybe what I could then do, and I won't frame better than you, I promise that, but I could help to lay out for the audience what were some of the key findings of the report from this year as we burrow in to what does resilience mean, what value does it have in the times that we're going through. And I'll start with this notion that it matters. It matters a lot. We've done some work that said if both countries and enterprises and individuals are not resilient as we go through these periods, it can cost us up to 8% of global GDP, a massive, massive number. On the other hand, if we embrace resilience and resilience excellence, we can add up to 15% to global GDP, which is a massive, massive amount. Also there's a value swing here in terms of getting this right and it matters. The second thing is we started to look at a how this year. How do you become excellent at resilience? And we came up with a few key findings by looking at over 1,000 entities of what is best practice as you think about this notion of resilience. And there are three pillars with seven calls to action under this. And I'll briefly kind of go through what this looks like. And the first pillar really relates to this notion of resilience that starts in both the leadership and in the organization. And there's two calls to action in this pillar. The first is that leaders need to embrace a resilience mindset. If it doesn't start at the top, it's not going to happen. And then when we did a survey, we found that only 16% of global leaders feel their organizations are prepared in terms of resilience. So there's a leadership imperative that starts from this. The second is you can't just say it's an imperative. You have to convert it to an agenda. Is there a resilience agenda either at the country or institution level? So a leadership mindset and agenda. The second pillar relates to what gets measured gets done. And quite frankly, this then starts with, do you have a framework to assess how resilient you are? Our consortium, Borges, last year came out with a framework. It's not the only framework for both a country and a company as a way to measure how resilient you are. So the first imperative is, is there a framework to measure? The second is, have you taken those measurements and embedded them in your decision-making process? So rather than going to a reactive process, are you starting to proactively scenario plan based on how the world can play out, what would I do so that you're ahead of the game and does this wire into decision-making? The final aspect is then measure over time to figure out, am I getting better or not? So that second pillar is all around measurement. And our last pillar relates to collaboration, which I hopefully is a theme that we come through. Resilience cannot be done alone. It cannot be done alone. And this notion that public-private partnerships are key. And also the notion that unlocking finance is going to be absolutely key to this. So new mechanisms both across finance and insurance are going to be required. So those are some of the key pillars. I'll say one more thing. We then looked at 1,000 companies. We put them through a whole bunch of metrics. And we looked at rewarding some pioneers in resilience. Not the only folks, but folks to call out. And there were so many wonderful aspects, but if I boiled it down to three, what do the pioneers do? Three things to remember. One, the pioneers play offense and defense at the same time. It's not just buffering for shock, but it's the ability also to make bold bets and move forward when you're in volatile time. So I like sports, the notion of offense and defense at the same time. The second is they think about resilience at three levels. The entity level, the entity might be a country, it might be a company. A collaboration level across the value chain. So are you not doing this yourself, but are you doing it with others? And finally, importantly, resilience at the individual level. How do we build skills so that when we get knocked down, we know how to get back up again? And building this from a capability level is incredibly important, so at three levels. And finally, the last notion I'll close with is if you don't use it, you lose it. So it's not something to do once. It's more like muscle that you build. And how do you stay fit on this notion of resilience? So, Borges, those were some findings that we collaborated on this year. I hope that at least is a bit of a fire starter as we set the stage. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I think this positioned it very well. Let me go to Odieh Renaud-Basot. EBRD has a lot of muscles, and that is needed. It can play offense and defense at the same time. But we know that many countries are in a volatile situation. So there's so many needs at the same time. And any reflections from your side how EBRD can also support countries that are in a volatile situation. But also that they are able to invest in future resilience. Because it's easy to just go for the immediate things. But sometimes, as also Bob said, the price of inaction here far exceeds the price of action. We're really talking 8% of global GDP if we were not to invest in resilience at all. So, Odieh. No, thank you very much. And I'm very happy to be here because I really believe that this notion of resilience has become at the core of the agenda. I think that few years ago, before COVID, before the wars we are facing, before the natural catastrophe also, we have been facing and in the impact of climate change. I think the notion of resilience was less prominent. What happened in the last few years needs that we really need to address it. And at companies level, but also at countries level. In a way, I think that the experience we had also shows that there is, we have been quite, I mean, the economies have been quite resilient, the countries have been quite resilient. There have been some short-term response to COVID, to natural catastrophe. And institutions like MDBs, so military development banks, international institutions, are helping there to help with this firefighting activity. So the short-term and providing emergency tools, emergency financing in order to be able to face the situation in Turkey. We provided a lot of liquidity, support to countries, working capital to clients in order to help them go through this period in countries facing natural disaster. Earthquake, for example, in Turkey, we provide quick facility in order to help municipalities or companies to rebuild there. So this is really the emergency part. And we need to have quicker tool. I think what we learned in the last few years is that we need to have very rapid response, not to wait months and to think about how we can answer, but at least tools available in our toolbox. A lot of work has been done in the last few months about, for example, debt close in order to be able in the situation of natural disaster, to suspend debt service and the World Bank. Other MDBs are doing that. Automatic suspension of debt service for a given period of time. This is a big outcome for the G20, I think, and it shows that we have enhanced our instruments to address this emergency situation. But as was said, the defensive and the offensive part is very important. And I think one very important part of our role is also to help countries to prepare. So to anticipate and to work on the structural dimension, what they can do in order to be more resilient over time, whatever the catastrophe, whatever events will happen. And from that, at the bank, which is very much focused on the private sector, I think for the country, we're thinking about the role of the private sector, how the private sector can be a key asset in enhancing the resilience of the country, helping to weather shocks, to react is very important. And that's why all reforms, structural reform, which at first side could appear very far away from this resilience objective, are there in order to have a more flexible labour market, more competition on the internal market and so forth, the country will be more resilient. The other part is, of course, and you mentioned it, how to think about supply chains and how to diversify. We COVID was a high opening in that respect. And I think now all countries and companies need to think about that. In Europe and in the marketing, which we operate, the energy crisis following the beginning of the war on Ukraine was also, I mean, a shock in terms of supply chain, diversity of energy, supply and so forth. So this is a big area of work, ensuring that there is diversity. And we are also working on tools to ensure financing for suppliers in all sorts of innovative instruments in that respect. The other dimension is climate resilience. And I think that it brings me to a very, I mean, make a link with a very important agenda, which is discussed a lot here also in Davos, is how to improve the response to, I mean, to accelerate green transition and the response to climate change, financing of adaptation and so forth will be a key element of resilience in developing economies and globally in the world, in the years ahead. And that will be, that's a big task ahead of us. Thank you so much, Mr. Al-Jaddan, you're the finance minister of an important G-20 country. You heard about offense and defense. You know, having worked with many finance ministers through my life, they're known for also looking very much after the purse. So it's hard to get any money out of them. But does that also count for resilience? Or are you more open for future investments in making your country resilient? One question, and please share also some thoughts about the global resilience on the economic side. Thank you very much, Borge. Good to be with this fantastic panel. And it's good actually to see the commercial side, the banking, you know, the brand sales, although we have some, but I think it is also there. And then the multilateral development institutions and governments. And I think resilience, I think sometimes we use words that we possibly need to define, but resilience comes at even individuals. And we could see that the post-COVID shock, China, for example, you know, individuals felt vulnerable and therefore they want to significant savings and not spending. I mean, that is part of how they reacted to be resilient. And if we are not careful, that could actually be counterproductive. And that applies. And Bob talked about businesses and how they can be resilient. And instead of, you know, being too thin in terms of their ability to respond to shocks, possibly not to go to the other extreme and swing to be inefficient. I think there is a balance between the two. And then governments, I mean, there is a significant role in governments to prepare in advance. I think you shouldn't wait for a shock to act. And then even when the shock happened, don't wait for it to end because actually life told us over the last three years, we moved from one shock to another, from one shock to another. So if you are going to wait until that shock just goes away, you're not going to be prepared. From a government perspective, I think you need to do significant structural reform to be able to improve your resilience. And that is at multiple fronts, at institutional level, at fiscal level, regulatory level, and then engaging with the private sector, engaging with your own people and making sure that you are providing them with air cover. You know, I just mentioned you need to provide, you know, safety net in cases of shocks. You need to provide safety net even to businesses in cases of shocks. But also, let us just remember, and I will close with this, that while I think there is significant more awareness now about resilience at household level, at business level, at the government level, let us remember that those who are in the lower deck of the ship will feel the water first. And in the context of governments, it's low-income countries that are really vulnerable and need support. And for them to grow, they will need two things. They will need investments, and they cannot get an investment with a crunching debt situation. And they need jobs for their youth, because that's part of the productivity. And looking at Africa, for example, you have the average 12 million new youth coming to the work age, and the African nations generate about 3 million jobs in the main economy, not the shadow economy. That is a serious issue that needs to be looked at. And with them suffering from a really serious debt situation, we have a role to play. The G20, multilateral development institutions, and even commercial banks have a role to play. And this is what the common framework under the G20 is about, to enable these countries to restructure their debts, give them a breathing space, allow them to grow, allow them to create jobs. And the good thing also is there are a lot of countries in the western or in the north, and possibly some of the south, like China, who does not have enough workforce. So there is actually an opportunity to utilize that workforce, even when they are at home. Now that with technology, you can actually do that, and you have the money that can actually support them to grow. So that's part of the resilience. Thank you very much, and also a very good segue into Madam Anu Mbessi, the chair of the Standard Bank. His Excellency, Mohamed, mentioned that the youth bulge in Africa is just staggering. I was just at breakfast in the African continental free trade area, and one third of every newborn in the years to come until 2050 will be born in Africa. But this Africa gets it right. By 2050, it can be a 16 trillion US dollar economy. Today, it's 3 trillion. So there are big hopes, there are ways of playing offense and not only defense, but in a bank, I guess resilience is something that you think about every hour. Yeah, thanks, Boggi, thank you very much. I am going to start off actually where Mohamed ended, which is while you're thinking about adaptation, particularly to climate, clearly we all know that although Africa had very little to do with the causes of the carbonization problems we deal with, it is the one area of the world that is the most vulnerable, with the least resources to build that resilience muscle that we're speaking about. So whilst Mohamed talks about the role of G20, the role of multilateral institutions, let me approach it from the point of view of what is the responsibility of the African governments themselves. Now, we know that many African governments today don't have the resources, in fact, the biggest issue that we face on the continent right now is sovereign debt crisis. People went and got low interest loans by the bucket load during the COVID years and pre that. And so today, we sit with very indebted countries and we're back to, I don't know which year is this way, where we thought we had broken the back of this problem. So we now have to contend country by country with how to support countries at this vulnerable time. And unfortunately, the fundamental structural reforms that are required are no different from the old nuggets that we have spoken about over and over again, simply to talk about clearly politically very, very difficult to achieve and what might that be in the African continent broadly and in sub-Saharan Africa more specifically, there is a huge amount of informal work that doesn't come into the net of the formal economy. Well, that then creates a problem for tax authorities to collect tax. So just getting that muscle right to start having the capacity for tax collection is an absolute requirement to get out of this for either the offensive or the defensive, whichever part of this conundrum that one is trying to deal with. And actually the solution start to have a commonality whether you're talking about getting the financing for adaptation or dealing with the debt crisis. You also have as a continent or as a region an area where there is a need to actually think seriously about liberalizing FX markets. The years of fixed exchange rate is long past. And we see the impact, the negative impact of continuing to hold on to this sort of crutch. We need governments to start clearly thinking about this. The African continent also needs the institutional capacity building that actually had started and got interrupted by the COVID pandemic that needs to come back onto the table in a much, much more forceful manner. So we've been talking about the demographic dividend actually for a long, long time for as long as I have been aware that there is something called a demographic dividend. The thing about potential is that somebody needs to do something in order to realize that potential. And absence, the kinds of things we're talking about now where governments need to actually change things structurally country by country in order to create an enabling environment first and foremost for people to create businesses, take away all of this unending red tape to create new businesses, make the investment climate a lot more welcoming to foreign direct investment. None of it will happen. We will have youth, it will have unemployment all grow at the same time. So I don't really buy that the demographic dividend of necessity is going to be a solution to the Africa issues that we're speaking, related issues we're talking about, but it certainly can be quite an important lever to pull if the governments of today's Africa just do the right thing to maybe borrow money, clearly they have to borrow money, but the money then gets deployed in productive sectors where there's investment, there was infrastructure development rather than funding the wage growth for public servants, which is the case today. And of course we can't really talk about building resilience in economies in sub-Saharan Africa without knocking head on this issue of corruption. People will come in with funds with capital but they want to know that it's being deployed in the right way. It is the custodianship over those assets is also in the correct one. So corruption has to be dealt with. We've come to Davos now for, don't know how long, 10 years over 10 years talking about the same thing. Transparency International used to be big here. I see not so much, but it doesn't mean the problem has gone away. It means we simply are struggling to break the back of some of these intractable problems that we've been dealing with on the African continent for quite a long time. I just want to make one more input into this and then I'll leave it to my colleagues. There is something to be said about increased debt transparency in highly indebted countries whether they in Africa or elsewhere. And this really talks to transparency both on the side of the borrower and on the side of the lender. And it really is very encouraging to see China, for example, start to come into the common framework as they are doing in chat because what bedevils some of these restructuring efforts is in fact this issue that there isn't complete transparency from some of the lenders about the terms and the values thereof. Secondly, we think as we get into this whole area of sustainable finance, it would be extremely helpful if some credible body, say the World Bank, takes responsibility for certification of country-level sustainable plans. So if you're deploying capital as an outsider into any kind of sustainability and sustainability plan, you know that it is credible, something standing behind that that you can rely on. We'll take time, always takes times when you're dealing with multilateral organizations, we absolutely understand that. From a standard bank perspective and taking a very narrow selfish commercial bank lens which of course we have to do, we've gone to the World Bank and made a direct proposal for the World Bank to become more explicit about when it would back using gas, right? Financing of gas because it is still a very contested space. For some people it's a fossil fuel, others a transition fuel, et cetera, et cetera. So I just came from another breakfast where our CEO talked about Lagos as an example of this sort of thing. So Lagos almost exclusively depends on own diesel generation for power. And on top of that Nigeria also flares gas. Now imagine if you were to finance gas to power the city of Lagos, which by the way is larger than the city of New York, replace all of this diesel with gas, stop flaring gas. Just how much you could contribute to decarbonization on the one hand and to development of the city on the other. So from an African perspective, I think it is time for us to stop pussy-footing about funding gas because this is one of the most important levers by which we can address both climate change. In South Africa we burn coal, very many countries in Africa burn biomass of whatever kind. So gas financing on the one side for decarbonization but also to develop human capital and to develop economies in the African continent. I'll stop there. Thank you. Coming back to you Bob when it comes to resilience because you work with a lot of companies in the private sector. And of course in the boardrooms these days there's more focus on risks than in the past. You have to look at the risk picture of how you prepare yourself for that and build resilience. But there are also trade-offs, as you said, you also have to be thinking about offensive. You can't only look at the possible challenges that will come up if you use all your money there and invest, of course then there is less for the future and the future is changing very fast. AI can improve productivity with 30% in the years to come. So what is your recommendation and advice to the companies you work on? How do you find the right balance between the offensive and defensive? And we get this advice now for free and it's all out there, huh? Well, you may get what you pay for. Yeah. No, I just wanted to say thanks to the panelists. Back to advice, I was taking tons of notes. There's just so many, I think, powerful notions that come from this. The idea that it can't just be an aspiration, there's action and transparency really resonates with me. Despite the common multilateral, the idea of speed and moving quickly and can organizations move quickly to respond because time matters and this notion of balance, that you can't go too far on one way or the other on the efficiency with the investment. How do you find this balance? And I think, Barhei, that goes to maybe the question that you had teed up. At least when I take a more private sector lens and think about some of the board discussions that senior management is having around the world. On this notion of resilience, given the times that we're going through, there may be a couple watch-outs that I think are useful. One is from a scenario planning point of view, taking a too narrow lens of what could happen. And what I see management teams get in trouble is coming in with an implicit bias of the range of outcomes. And if there's ever a time to be creative around looking at a wider range of outcomes so that you can develop plans to be ready for them, it's at that stage. And we do see a systematic bias of looking at too narrow a range of outcomes. And so that is one push of our teams being creative enough, both management and with boards, around looking at a wider range of scenarios because the world can evolve in several ways. I think the second aspect is literally drawing a line down the middle of a page and saying back to your resourcing point of view, okay, how much of our resource, whether it's capital or people, are going to buffer and defend and shore ourselves up? And how much are going to the bold plays that will actually take us to a different spot going forward? And does it look in balance? I haven't found a team yet that is in perfect balance. You're either too biased around defense, which spurs a conversation of, how do I put enough resource into technology investment, talent investment, perhaps acquisition, transformation, et cetera? Or they're putting all their eggs there and it's very risky and exposed. How do I actually put some buffer in the system? This resilience around supply chain, I think we saw the world might have been efficient, but it wasn't very resilient, right? And so this notion of literally drawing the line down the page and are you in balance? Maybe the last thing, Borges, I would say on this, and we just touched on it a little bit. We spent a lot of time around thinking at the institution or even at the country level around these topics or even multilaterally. I think we're under investing at the individual level and increasingly the conversations rest with the chief talent officer or the CHRO about how much are you investing in the individual to make the individual more resilient? When you get a setback, how do you get back up? Do you have the ability, when the world knocks you to then figure out how do I reach out in your bank? And what we found is that institutions that overinvest at the individual level and also countries, by the way, in investing at the individual level systematically outperform. And so I might just also push, Borges, on this idea of individual resilience as maybe the bedrock for this. Thank you. Also to your point about supply chains, just remind ourselves that of course we soldier in COVID that we did not have resilient enough supply chains. But we also have to be careful so the pendulum doesn't go to the totally other side because we are in a higher inflationary territory. And that will, I think, continue for some time because if you nearshore and diversify, there are arguments for that. But if you go too far, you can also lose the baby with the buttwater because the fact that you have then been sourcing where you get the best price has also, for your input factors, has also reduced the price of what you're producing. So now when you buy more expensive, your product will be more expensive than it adds to the inflation. So it shows how you have to diversify but at the same time, you also have to be very conscious about what you're producing. And second, I think also what we're now seeing in the global economy is that one has to also be building the muscle of resilience. So, Odia, you're looking at a lot of countries that are now under huge pressure also on the debt. We are, unfortunately, in a unique and quite challenging debt situation. We haven't seen this amount of global debt since the Napoleonic Wars. And I'm not kidding, we have more than 300% of the global GDP in debt. And then we're talking about investing. How worried are you about the resilience on the debt side globally, and especially in the area you're operating? I'm getting more and more concerned. Even the largest economy in the world, the US economy, 25% of the global GDP, the biggest expense, the biggest item now on their state budget is paying interest on their debt in the US. I think that tells us a real story. Odia. I think that's a global challenge, but in the countries in which we operate, we don't, they are quite different. I mean, not so much, I mean, facing issues of that sustainability. It's in few cases, but not as serious as it was mentioned, for example, in sub-Saharan Africa, where it's becoming really a major obstacle for investment and so forth. But I think that this debt situation needs to be, taken into account, and we need to find effective solution because the common framework has been there, it's been starting to work, but it's very slow. I think we really need to find a ways, and I know that this one is working on a lot on that, on how to accelerate. And to find the way to cooperate at the global level so as to address these issues in the over-in-depth countries very quickly, because it's a question of human capital. If a country cannot invest, I mean, the human resilience will not be there because human capital will not be there. Investment for economic growth will not be there, and so forth. So this is a very important question. The private sector debt, otherwise, I mean, it needs to be, when it's not, I don't think that as an imminent threat. I hope I'm not mistaken, but I think that we need to continue to invest globally. We have the climate challenge that requires a lot of investment, so we will need to continue to invest, even if we start from already high level of debt level. And I think that having the right macroeconomic framework to us to, and hopefully interest rates will start to, we are hopefully at the high end and with what we see in inflation and interest rates may start to, so this will make also the situation easier. One point I wanted to mention in terms of easy importance, and you mentioned public-private partnership, but is it important on these issues of resilience at the macro, but also micro level to work with the private sector on solutions? Because, for example, one thing that was not so much mentioned is cybersecurity, which I see now as one of the most emerging, I mean, highest emerging risk, where it requires a lot of work with the private sector to have the appropriate solution and be ready at all level, be it at the government level, at company's level to have the tools. So that's the point where the solution often lies in the private sector. Thank you. We have five minutes left. The resilience of the global economy. I guess you're not in a debt situation at least. No, but I... Many worries, but that's maybe not one of them that keeps you up at night. I think I just wanted to cover the sovereign debt side globally, I think. And then I'll come back to the resilience. But very quickly, we should also note that particularly governments, not like, for example, the GCC countries who does not rely on tax for most of government's revenues and including their debt service, countries who rely, which is most countries, rely on tax. Actually, it's in their interest to see a higher inflation. Not too high, but higher inflation because 2% will not allow them actually to maintain a level of sustainability under debt. So they need possibly higher inflation. To exploit themselves out of it. Well, not necessarily, because basically... And it helps if you have the reserve currency. No, no, exactly. But basically, they borrow at fixed rates and when you have an inflation, their revenues will inflate and they will be able to pay that interest at a fixed rate from an inflated revenues, basically. But going back to resilience, and I'll try to be very brief, I think government... I'll talk from a government perspective. Governments will need to ensure that they do what they can every day, every week, every month, and every year to be more resilient. And what does that mean? Structure reform and continue to enhance that. Increase your ability to actually respond to shocks. And what does that mean? Basically, don't spend all your money and invest in human resource. And Bob talked about it. This is very important. In countries where you are subject to volatility, for example, Saudi Arabia and most of the GCC countries, you will need also to have buffers. So, for example, in Saudi Arabia, we actually take the government reserves as part of the demand side, not the supply side. We don't use it as part of the means to supply our needs. It's actually part of the demand side, because you needed to deal with external shocks. In Saudi, for example, in 2021, we knew that there is so much quantitative easing, so much money supply that inflation is going to happen. So we took proactive approaches in terms of putting a ceiling on energy prices, which actually controlled inflation, significantly in Saudi. We established a very good framework of social safety net to support the low income part of the society in a manner that actually dealt with the inflation. And we ended up with an inflation that did not exceed 4%. Now it is back to about 2% or even below 2%. Last month, I think it is 1.5%. So you can actually, if you are proactive, you can deal with shocks and be more resilient, but you need to do your part. I liked the comment in relation to Africa. We multilateral development institutions would obviously do everything we can to support low income countries, but we need them to also support themselves. And I think that is very critical. Working with donors, and Saudi Arabia is one of the largest donors in the world, donors are increasingly now saying, we need to work with you as a country who is in need, but with multilateral development institutions to help you reform. To help you, we need to see reform. We need to see that you are doing your part before we do ours. Thank you. In one minute and 46 seconds, we are off air. So Niamn Bresley, you have to use one and a half minute really well. No pressure. I just want to put one thought forward. As bankers, we have the concept of ruckus lending. If you lend to a non-credit worthy client, retail client, knowing that, essentially you lose recourse, right? You can't really enforce your rights in that case. Well, knowing we're in this high debt and distress debt risk with sovereigns in SSA, it strikes me that we need to be very careful to instill or insist on fiscal discipline. So we don't have this miracle round of people borrowed too much. They then get these headcuts and restructuring and all of that. They are made whole in part at the expense of taxpayers in the global north. Once they're whole, they start again, high yield debt. Yet again, everybody's happy to come in because they know, you've created moral hazard. They know they will be rescued. So the insistence on fiscal discipline this time round is off the utmost importance. Thank you. I think the panel deserves a big applause. And we're on Swiss time. We still have 12 seconds left. So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. Thank you.