 a very good morning to you thank you very much for keeping it why in the morning this is why 2-5-4 TV if at all you're just joining us you're just in time for the next conversation of the day my name is Ram Agucco remember we are coming to you live from our broadcasting house here in Nairobi Kenya we are also live on our website that is at www.kbc.co.ke 4th Lush Y 2-5-4 we value your feedback and we encourage you to participate with us keep talking to us on our social media handles I'm seeing many people are telling us that they are watching from different parts of the country tell us where you're watching us from now this morning we want to talk about HIV AIDS awareness what is it that we need to do to increase awareness in terms of HIV and AIDS how are we communicating about this particular issue how was it back then how is it now considering that we are in times of a COVID-19 pandemic how are we communicating about the COVID-19 pandemic all right vis-a-vis how we are communicating about hate we are communicating about HIV AIDS is there a way that you can learn lessons from one and implement on the other is a way that you can be able to pick lessons and also implement them on the ground what are the do's and the don'ts that were there on HIV that we need to implement on COVID-19 today let's talk about HIV and AIDS and to help us in this conversation I'm joined by none other than Dr. Bernice Gatteri she is the executive director at the TWR Kenya that is Transworld Radio Kenya. Thank you very much hope you're well I am well thank you. And even as we talk about this particular conversation I'd like to engage with you the hashtag is why in the morning at Ram Agucco and that's why 254 channel is where you can find us engage with us even on our Facebook platform we've posted a question there on our Facebook page and go to our Facebook page there drop in your comment and we shall read or sample your comment as you continue with this conversation today. Dr. Gatteri Thank you. Before we talk on HIV you work at Transworld Radio Kenya I want you to tell us about that for those who may not know I am aware that it has been there for a very very long time longer than some of us you know when you were born Bandai you know yourself. Also tell us about TWR Kenya. Yes TWR Kenya has been in Kenya since 1976 so that is a long time so we are actually celebrating our 45th year this October. Coincidentally this October which year do you have a date? We looked at the founders and the time that they got here so around the 15th of October we celebrate our anniversary and of course Transworld Radio Kenya is a branch of the International Ministry of Transworld Radio which broadcast the gospel globally and that one started way back in 1954. Yeah but Kenya was actually the second office to be opened in Africa basically to produce programs for shortwave station that is still based in the kingdom of Swaziland currently called Eswatini. And you used to do some particular programs and then over time you expanded and you went and did more. Tell us a bit about the things that you do at TWR. Okay basically we we produce Christian programs some of which are aired on KBC Bible teaching and preaching but we also do development programs looking at issues affecting the society, issues of health, family, lifestyles and we also run a network of FM stations called CIFA FM stations that are mainly among what we call the least-reached people groups so we currently have about eight FM stations in the northern parts of our country and also at the coast. So far so good how is the reach from the audience in terms of the reception you're getting you know is it is it something that you can say that CIFA TWR has made steps in terms of you know the the number of people you are engaging with the way they're responding to the content you're giving to them and the inspiration that they're getting from it. Yes we can say that of course as we acknowledge how things have changed from shortwave to medium wave and now to FM and also what is happening through social media and the fact that we are able to reach people from across the world really from where we are because of the technology that that we have and also the fact that we are engaging communities at the ground because we are running our FM stations locally on location so we have a station like in Lodwa so we are reaching people there our latest one is in Kakuma refugee camp we also have a station in Masabit in Lamu in Boye and we are also reaching north eastern parts of Kenya through our FM stations so yes we are we can say yes we are we are fulfilling our mandate and I love that you know what personally I'm getting that from this particular conversation you know I'm inspired don't give up you know everything at some point has a beginning and and and not an end but I want to say as a beginning and there will always be those challenges that you'll face across time you know from for all those years 40 years down the line you're standing strong coming from the executive director herself I believe that we can all get inspired from that the executive director for all these years don't give up doctor Bernice I want us to touch on HIV I'm aware that you did your doctoral thesis on on this particular area what is it all about okay in my my study I looked at sexual reproductive health campaign messages and I looked particularly at the case of the Wachampanga Wakanda campaign in Kenya and this of course and I made it from my interest in HIV which began again through my work with transfer radio producing radio programs on HIV and AIDS and also traveling around this continent and seeing what was happening in different countries regarding this matter of HIV and AIDS so it's an issue that is very close to my heart and what are your findings as you are doing this particular thesis okay before I come to the findings I was I was looking at why the rate of in new infections remained high among people in marriages and long-term relationships okay despite the campaign messages and of course one of the findings was the fact that a message that is targeting an issue like Pango Wakanda needs to recognize that this is such a complicated it's a complex issue because people engage in Pango Wakanda for different reasons so when you do a blanket message it may not reach everyone and you may not get the desired results the other thing was the fact that the campaigns thought were very good and memorable because people could still remember these campaigns many years they could remember what they saw on television but the campaign was not sustained long enough to be able to look back and measure we aired this campaign for four years these were the figures before we started these were the figures after and because of the shortness of the duration then you find that when the researchers went back after the campaign they found that the rate of new infections was still where it was before the campaign interesting interesting indeed now we are realizing that there is power in having a campaign yes but now the sustainability of these campaigns is the issue here what do you think we need to do as a society in order to change this particular narrative because you're mentioning campaigns have not been that sustainable some start and stop in the middle what how do you think we should address such kind of an issue okay one of the reasons why the campaigns stop mid midway is because of of funding and that is because of donor funding that campaigns are built on funds that have been availed by the donors so i think one of the ways is to actually have this as part of our initiatives to fight against campaigns the way we are looking to make sure that there is treatment there is testing we are also making sure that there is a budget allocated to make sure that the campaign is sustained for a longer time so with proper funding it is sustainable it is sustainable because then you do you do a campaign on the media you'll also do a campaign at the grassroots where you involve the stakeholders the cbo's on the on the ground the churches the mosques they all become a part of that the schools they all become part of that the campaign and coming to the down to the youth how can the youth also you know be part of this how do we put our hands on the ground and and be part of campaigns against you know raise awareness on hiv okay the youth is a very very critical the critical segment of our society and if you realize one of the things that has happened with the covet was the increase of teenage pregnancies and you know the statistics came out but what the story did not tell us is the risk that this youth were getting exposed to contracting hiv hiv and aids and statistics i think are showing that over a hundred and thirty three thousand youth and teens are actually living with hiv in the country and representing about 50 percent of new infections every year wow so it's it's a real concern that's a big number yeah it is and it's a it's a real concern so whatever campaign that we engage in and develop we must then have the issue of youth at the core because one of one of the things that youth leave their lives sometimes feeling this is not for us they have not seen youth with hiv and aids this this is hard to tell who has it you can't sell yeah so they they may not think about about the fact that they are at risk so the messaging is to remind them a you are not immortal you are not immune to to getting infected you can actually get infected and these are the statistics that are showing that youth are actually at risk and why do we have such high numbers especially among the youth is is here change that is there right now that was not there before you know in terms of even communicating how are we doing it before that we are not you know that is different from now this high numbers in the youth is quite alarming okay as i as i looked at the campaigns that have been done before yeah one of the the campaigns that was rated as most successful was actually targeting the youth and it was entitled me mature i remember that yes and unfortunately we've not done another one like that yeah you know in recent past but the that campaign really helped the youth to see that abstinence is possible especially for school going kids yeah they were in uniform yeah they were in uniform the ladies were giving that sign you know yeah and in my chill and so it became being chilled became cool yeah so girls and boys chose to abstain and actually showed the figures came down of the age at which they were engaging in sex so a campaign like that having a season two three and four of the mature campaign would be a good idea so so that is one of the thing but when there's there's no information you are just doing it quietly then because of peer pressure there's a lot of peer pressure among young people unfortunately so your friend tells you i had sex with my girlfriend what are you still waiting for your laughter if you're still a virgin yeah so they want to go and experiment because it's also the age of experimenting yeah and and we need to change this narrative yes it's it's quite interesting because right now the things that we would not encourage before we are encouraging currently yes um how can we engage the youth because right now it's we're in the world of social media and social media has taken the world by storm it wasn't there before but it is there right now but because of social media i believe there is a way information can be passed at a faster rate as opposed to how it was passed before yes okay as you think of social media one of the things i think is the many young media influencers that we have and you know we have them as ambassadors for products and other services yeah and those are perfect for to be ambassadors for messages to the youth regarding hiv and aids and talking to the youth about first prevention this is how you protect yourself um second in case you get infected this is how you get treatment this is how you get care this is how you get the support social support this is the number you can call for for voluntary testing yeah and and i'm looking at the conversation we are having currently we are a time where everyone's talk about the covid-19 and uh we are forgetting many other uh underlying issues that are there like hiv yes you know how can we promote uh the awareness on hiv during a pandemic like this okay first i think is to to look at um hiv um from the early stages and see that there was a time that hiv was actually what covid-19 is today yeah um where um not much information was available um the the first when the first person came with hiv people thought you know this is this is which crowd it is it is from the devil i mean the the church say this is for sinners yeah you know where people should be running there was a lot of stigma there was a lot of stigma a lot of stigma so there was no information and now look back at when even in our own country the first case live alone who and when the first case in the country we locked down when there were how many three cases you know yeah and how the streets were empty for a couple of weeks we were locked in yeah you thought if you go to the kiosk you come back with hiv for sure i mean with covid-19 with covid-19 so when you look at it the the beginning of of the both of these pandemics they are the same so there's a lot we can see from how then the governments of the world began to educate their people and how again now we are beginning to educate people about covid-19 because we were living under fear living under fear and also the earlier messages were also a lot about fear appeals there are fear appeal the the the the pictures that were shown of people who are dying from AIDS were people who are totally skinny eaten away by the disease barriers were people are putting those plastic black plastic bags being buried and we saw that in the early days of covid as well you know you feel it for the families who lost their loved ones in the early months of covid-19 you watched from afar as your your loved one is being buried by total strangers you know in in the in those governments of preventing covid so so so you we see a lot of similarities because here we are seeing hiv yes the human immuno-divisive virus yes and the covid-19 virus both viruses both have uh hit us by storm yes but there is a way we can pick lessons from each one of them yes yes how can we be able to learn from hiv other tips that the hiv gave us as a society that we can actually use to learn and make preventary measures that can cushion us against the effects of the covid-19 yes i think the first thing is the the awareness for for the first few years there was a lot of awareness on hiv which was was going on in the media at the community level in churches just people coming to tell you this is what hiv is this is what it is not this is how you can get it this is how you can't get it you know you not get it by sharing utensils for instance there was a lot of that that awareness we need to do that also right now yes we should work in churches yes and and say you know covid you know like covid now one of the things we are we are facing is this vaccine hesitancy people because of the many myths and conspiracy theories that we can't enforce here so people just not going for it and so there's need for education there's need for awareness that this this is this vaccine this is what it will do for you this is not what it will not do for you as you may have had rumors that it will do this to you it will not do this is that such that has been done these are the number of people that have been vaccinated and they are still alive yeah yeah so there's there's need now to to share that information the the other thing that happened with the with the hiv campaigns it's also using um personality non-personalities you know and i remember one of the the the campaigns used jimi gathu a media personality yeah and the idea was to it was called fanya i was that one for when he sat on a chair like this yes yes and he was uh and he had a calculator yes and he's telling this guy just count the cost of having this pango a candle yeah you know the financial cost first of all and i think it came to something like 34 000 paying her rent sending her parents money and also consider the the cost of contracting hiv and aids in the process and decide whether it is worth it so the the same thing for for covid when you are being told you know wash your hands social distance wear your mask what will it cost you what do you risk if you don't do this you risk contracting hiv i mean sorry contracting covid you see then as we are confusing that you risk contracting covid you risk being hospitalized and this are the call this is what it is costing families we all have been involved in in in um in fundraising because of of covid bills so this is what you risk and mainly you could you could lose you can lose your life oh yeah and and and some of these tips youths can also learn from them yes um is is there a way that we need to communicate to the youths concerning uh hiv uh vis-a-vis the covid-19 pandemic that they can be able to associate with and learn from yes i think one of them is that anyone we are all at risk when one of us is at risk we are all at risk yeah and one of the messages again that for hiv helped the population to see that was another one that became very controversial and it was showing two women at the marketplace and they are discussing their affair one of them is having with a younger man yeah um it was called you know what you know last year we were called um pangoni and the idea um according to the message designers was to show the population that all of us are at risk even the ordinary woman at the marketplace yeah and in the same way we can we can take that message and say looking at covid-19 don't think that because you are young and you survive you are safer than the mom at home who you might take this virus to because you have no social distance you have not worn your mask properly and you have not sanitized or washed your hands yet you go home to your to your parents or to your grad parents and if they catch the virus they may not be as lucky as you are they may not survive we need to be responsible as young people as individuals yes and especially the young that is not just about us it's also about the people that we interact with it's about our family because this thing is being you know also spread through trusted circles you know and it's the same with hiv another of those messages was basically showing that hiv is spreading through a network of trusted partners so you have a sexual partner that you trust so you don't use protection what you done with that that partner also has another partner that they trust so they don't use protection with that partner and through that network it is being spread and in the same way covid we can say you know we let off our guard when we are with family you know it's a family dinner after all and it's a family wedding and for most youths we we tend to overlook most of these things yes and we assume them it's going to kill us or harm us or harm us in other ways at the end of the day yeah you may think that a young person with the status of the young people some have the ideas but they are not as high as people let's say over 60 but then you could be the one who brought it to your over 60 loved one yeah yeah the psychological effect of that how do you live with that so think about that before you engage in the risky behavior wow I'm looking at the way we can unintentionally stigmatize some of these things comparing hiv and the covid 19 are there ways that we can be able to you know prevent that unintentional harm that we make on somebody in terms of stigmatization because we've seen stories we are we know families and friends who contracted covid we know families and friends who conducted hiv that unintentional stigmatization how can you prevent it especially as youths yeah that's now another lesson again from hiv because in the initial times stigma was very high and one of the way of fighting stigma is really sharing accurate information about about the disease yeah and how people get it it was of course worse for for hiv because especially in sub-Saharan and Africa it was mainly through sexual contact yeah and so that's why the church would call later disease of of sinners but as information then is shared and you see that you can get infected even when you have not done anything you know you've not even like gone out of your marriage as this campaign was showing that you may think marriage is is safe but actually if your partner is is unfaithful you are actually at risk and in the same way with the then the stigma of course came with the way the disease presented itself the way the person looked and so the family you would go to a village that you be told you that family was wiped out by covid i mean by hiv aids and nobody wants to be there to be near them you find grandmothers taken care of children left by parents who died and that family will be stigmatized by the society then we come to see again as i was talking about the earlier days of covid nobody wants their person to be known that they died from covid and we we upload the the families that came forward and said yes it is covid that kills so and so because one of the way of dealing with stigma is really coming out in the open and and and and using that information to help others protect themselves is instead of fighting silent battles silent battles so instead of having so many people who died from a short illness we see it and we understand because when a family is mourning really they are trying to protect their loved ones and protect themselves from certain information but if we encourage the family to to come forward as it happened with the hiv then people begin to see that yes this thing is real because we still have people who do not seem to believe that covid is real but as more and more people come out and say yeah we are raising funds because we had this this bill in the hospital of 10 million whatever our patient recovered our patient did not make it then people begin to see yes this thing is real and once we accept we come to accept and then the next step is then so what steps do we take how do we protect ourselves from from becoming the next the next victim of the virus because we may do some things unknowingly we are just we are harming ourselves and unintentionally stigmatizing ourselves and those around us and those around us I want us to look at the financial implications here in terms of because you mentioned that funding is an issue when it comes to these campaigns what are your recommendations especially in regards to the covid 19 visa v hiv okay first you probably as from me from a media perspective already you probably know this that when this funds are in short supply one of the first things to go is like advertising yes and and that of course with then by extension include things like campaign so if I'm in an end you that is in the hiv space and I have to make a choice whether to buy the air v's yeah offer counseling services or develop a campaign to air on kbc and we probably say let me first firefight and make sure that people have the the medication so I think the the lesson is to actually ensure that we prioritize information is information is power we are told actually having the right information is just as important as making sure you are getting that medication yes it is because even that medication need to know this is how to take it yeah and this is how to report if I have this this kind of of science science so investing in information as a critical part of of of the fight again is the the pandemic and you you realize that we are actually considered essential services the media yes in a crisis like that and like this one now so even the campaign messages you know we've seen them in the media but I believe we can do more more investment in terms of finances can be put in by the government the ministry of health in this this pandemic that we are in of of covid to make sure that we are sustaining those messages and that we are doing the messages not just on the media but they are also again at the grassroots level so that everyone has information and they are enlightened and they are enlightened so look for instance like now if we look at the counties in which counties have we had the the highest vaccine hesitancy for instance why why are people not going then develop a campaign to address the issue the reasons they are giving for not turning up to take the vaccine yeah and I love what you're saying because you're already giving the government recommendations on what they need to do because we all have a role to play all of us as youths as government as media personalities yes I want us to bring this conversation to a close and I want you to have a final say what should be our take home considering that we are in a time where many youths did not really take put much weight on HIV I want you to advise that youth who is watching you today what would you like what would be your final word just in the nutshell as you wrap this conversation up that is your camera you can speak to that to that Kenyan youth who is watching you today okay for the Kenyan youth I know there's been a lot of attention in the last 18 or 20 months on on COVID-19 but HIV is still with us as we talked about earlier the youth the rate of new infection among the youth is still a concern so it is important for us at young people first to take steps to prevent getting infected abstinence we've talked about it we have talked about faithfulness that is for those who are in marriages and if you're unable to do any of those two the option is the the the C which is the condom the ABC then there's this information if you're infected there's information on where you can get treatment where you can get tested where you can get counseling please don't go through this alone make sure you seek you seek help and we are grateful for for centers which have been set in some places specifically where they specific days when a young person can go if they are they are suspecting they could have contracted the virus to actually go for testing to go for for counseling and to go for treatment yeah and also know they care how to to care for yourself because you can be cared for this this medication it is no longer a death sentence yeah yeah Dr. Asande Sana thank you thank you for coming and keep doing what you're doing thank you I love the campaigns that you're you know you are advocating for because at the end of the day we need this information as youths we need to understand a lot of these things because there is a lot of misinformation out there youths like googling and you know when you google some things you will you will end up getting yes a lot of information that sometimes may not actually help you yeah yeah but thank you so much for finding time it's a pleasure thank you thank you sir pleasure also I've enjoyed being here Asande Sana thank you that is Dr. Bernice Gattara who is the executive director at the TWR Kenya and you know we were talking about the HIV awareness how do you communicate these particular issues how do you compare the COVID-19 virus and the HIV keep commenting keep talking to us on our social media handles the hashtag is why in the morning at Ram Maguko at Michelle Asheera and at Y254 channel we're taking a short break after this we are still going to come back with much more this is why in the morning