 Hello Shannon, I suspect you're probably not getting a lot of snow, but what you are all getting is a lot of future Transform so welcome everybody. Welcome to the future. Trends forum It's the top of the hour. So I'd like to begin. Thank you all for coming. My name is Brian Alexander I'm the forum's host. I'm its creator. I'm your chief cat herder with the next hour of conversation We've hosted Terry before and I find that trying to describe Terry Is actually kind of exhausting because she seems to be a one-woman army She's a political scientist with several published books And I don't know how many articles under her belt and a faculty career She's also been in the administrative world leading and working on programs She's also an author as I mentioned with books She's a leader and a consultant and she does this all with incredible Applam and grace what we're here to talk about now is her new book called radical empathy and you can see a link to it The bottom left of the screen that little box that says radical empathy and her idea is to use radical empathy to help address Racial divides in campuses in the United States. What does this mean? How does this work? Let me invite Terry Givens up on stage to explore with all of us. Well, welcome. Dr. Givens Greetings It's so good to see you welcome aboard Where where are you coming from today? Well today, I'm in California, but yesterday I was in Montreal, California, Canada I am teaching at McGill University and we're heading into our winter break. So what and you're also McGill are This is incredible You're the recipe an army of clones that make all this work for you. This is incredible What are you teaching? What are you teaching at McGill political science and specifically compared so Speaking of books. I've authored. I wrote one of the first textbooks stick to really cover comparative immigration politics and called immigration in the 21st century And so I taught that class in the fall and this spring I'm teaching a class on transatlantic race and immigration politics and so that goes along with my other book Which is called the roots of racism We could talk about another time But it goes into kind of that why you know, I mean it starts off kind of it's a pretty broad Look at my research and others research over the years which Shows how we haven't really brought race to the floor and that race and even in the discipline of political science has been Marginalized for various reasons partly because you don't see people like me As as much as you should and actually that's what I'm doing at McGill and the provost academic lead and advisor on the strategy to address racism So I'm working with the provost office to bring In specifically more black faculty and I also do workshops on radical empathy for my colleagues around campus to help them Create a better space and environment not only do we need to recruit these people But we need to bring them in and retain them Indeed indeed. Oh, that's a lot of a lot of work I you know, normally we ask people to talk about what they're working on for the next year. It sounds like that's a full plate Well, congratulations at that appointment and what looks like just a very powerful position to be in It's a lot of work I have to say something about that though because what I was talking to them about taking this job about a year ago You know, they had only A couple years about say two and a half years ago. They only had eight black faculty out of 1700 at McGill and we're now pushing 30 but It was just incredibly amazing to me that such a high-ranking institution could be so behind Indeed Well, good luck. Good luck. I'm looking forward to carrying that number get higher and higher I Care I if I just want us to begin with Your book just sounds fantastic. What is radical empathy? What do you mean by that? Well, I'm gonna I'll put in the chat So that first of all, let me say why I wrote this book You know, I had been following. I mean throughout my career in life You know trying to understand a lot variety of issues but also, you know having my own lived experience, you know in terms of you know where it grew up and and You know, I'm the first in my family to let me go to college let alone get a PhD and you know Understanding how structural discrimination has played a role in everything from, you know My father's heart attack at the age of 73 to my own, you know health issues to the challenges I faced being woman and a black woman leader in academia and So I wanted to do something that would help to understand why we have these racial divides and ways that we can actually take action so the really important component of radical empathy is You know taking action, but the first step is willingness to be vulnerable and You know, that was hard for me But important to me because that and people ask me well, you know Do we need to be vulnerable with especially if you're a woman or a person of color trying to be Vulnerable around some folks is you know feels like you're just opening yourself up to attack But it's not being you know necessarily be willingness to be vulnerable You know to others it's starting with yourself and really the one of the key focuses of radical empathy is We each need to understand our own and it's very much about storytelling and we can come back to that in a minute, but The this idea of being vulnerable really for me meant being a willing to do that deep dive and understanding the choices my parents made in terms of how we grew up and where we grew up and and You know internalized oppression and respectability Politics and all these things that that influenced my life and how that formed me as a person and once I was able to pull that together then the next step is called is um, oh You know becoming grounded in who you are and I'm gonna type that in and The important thing about becoming grounded in who you are is that you know you really have to learn to Be accepting of yourself and have empathy for yourself and so you know I'm a big fan of Whitney Houston and her song the greatest love of all is one of my favorites You know you have to learn to love yourself before you can love others And I really believe that is such a key component because that then leads to the next step which is being open to the experiences of others and so that Being grounded in who you are makes you more I believe open to others experiences because you don't want anybody putting you Into a box or you know telling you who you are when you know, you're the one who knows who you are So I talk a lot about you know, there's the golden rule which is you know Being you get doing unto others as you would have them do unto you But it's really I believe in the platinum rule which is doing unto others as they would have you do unto them Right, so it's not saying. Oh, I want you to treat me just like I want to be treated It's like I have respect for you and I want to learn who you are as a person and I want to treat you the way you want to be treated So that's that's an important step. And then the next is really practicing empathy Because empathy is not something that really comes easily to all of us And you know, I feel like I'm an empathic person person But yeah, and I yeah, I really got interested in empathy when I was younger I'm a huge Star Trek fan and there's a Star Trek episode called the empaths and those of you who know it know it talks about this woman who you know Kirk and Spock and McCoy are Abducted to this planet to help her and she's trying to learn how to use her abilities around empathy and not only You know taking on people's you know putting yourself and other people shoes But actually taking on people's you know injuries and so on and anyway So that got me intrigued with the idea of empathy, but it's something you have to practice and just let Jim had to and that's Star Trek So practicing Empathy is really critical and then the next step, which is the radical component of it is taking action and You know taking action is so important because I feel like we You know, I walk when I'm in California I live in Menlo Park and I walk around the neighborhood and I see all the black lives matter signs and everything It's like, but what are you really doing? And you know, do you really understand the this neighborhood and why it is the way it is and Why there aren't as many black people living here as you might expect otherwise and so on and so I really challenge people to take a walk Around your neighborhood and try to understand You know why things ended up the way they did, you know, we the problem is we're very passive You know sometimes about these things like and even when we want to take action It's like, oh, okay. I'm gonna go March. Well, it has to go beyond that you know, it has to go beyond these these kind of Punctuated equilibria as we political scientists like to say you know incidents like George Floyd It has we have to understand that structural discrimination is impacting everything in our lives and every day of our lives and so It's really important to Understand that the place where you live is the way it is because of structural discrimination the schools We are working in or go to are the way they are because of structural discrimination You know all these things are impacting us and then finally Besides practicing empathy and taking action we want to create change and build trust and so You know, I really want so every chapter of the book ends with actions that people can take So I wanted this to be a very action-oriented Book something that people can take in and learn something from but also, you know Imagine if all the people of goodwill went out there and really tried to create change, right? That would be a movement that could really change the world It would indeed it would indeed so we start off with that kind of Vulnerability and you know accepting other people then proceeding to start telling of the platinum role and then ending with action This is quite a ladder to climb up. I I have more questions for you Terry But the forum is is is for everybody else to have their questions So friends if you're new to the forum, just remember press that raised hand to join us on stage or type in the question mark Will your question or answer? And we have a few questions that have already come in and I want to make sure that everyone gets a chance And there's one right here. Just I think this is a another take on what you just said from Jim Venete's Who asks? What is your working definition of empathy more than caring I suspect? Yeah, and there's different types of empathy. There's kind of the cognitive empathy that says, okay I understand you have issue. You know, I see you have problems You know, I want to deal with them and it goes beyond that to actually trying to you know Put yourself in the other person's space to and so and the way we do that is the story telling so I'll start off with you know the story I start off with in the book, which is you know story of my family gathering and And you know my father there, you know being so proud of his children and grandchildren and this was in 2001 My son Andrew was about nine months old And I just had the opportunity to invite my parents to come and visit me in Seattle at the time I was at University of Washington and I really wanted them to see me in action as a professor, you know wearing my So I invited them to the political science graduation and wearing my Regalia and all that and it was really exciting for me to have them see you know What I'd become and they came to the reception afterwards and then two weeks later my dad had passed away from a heart attack and You know, it was just this horrifying situation You know as a first very close family member who I lost and and you know, I mean at the time You know, it's when I had a nine month old So I had to kind of tamp down my my grief and and you know be there for him but You know as I began to try and understand it being a researcher, you know once I got past my grief Which is something you really never get over but in any case I started looking into it. It's like well What happened? Why did this happen to my father and 73 relatively young and The first one of the first things I learned is that Just being an African-American male put you at higher risk of heart disease having a heart attack dying from your first heart attack And I was just horrified and you know that started me down a path of trying to understand You know, I had had my own experience in my late 20s when I was having, you know horrible issues with pain and so on and Demetriosis and you know, I finally found a doctor who would treat me and he actually told me You know, I bet you've had a lot of doctors tell you that black women don't get it and Demetriosis Like well not directly, but yeah, they wouldn't you know really treat me and this all issue of pain and so on is You know something that is problematic, you know the data in the chapter on health disparities It's just horrifying when you realize, you know There's all the medical students who believe that black people have thicker skin and don't experience pain the same way and and then You can imagine how that translates into the education system where you know, I mean I saw this all the time I mean there was almost an expectation that as when I was being a black student when I would walk into Classroom and you know, I know the teacher didn't know me or my family. They immediately assume, you know There's a problem student when you know in reality. I was a straight-A student And so you just the sad truth is we internalize this oppression and we just assume, okay I'm gonna get discriminated against so I have to be prepared for that But you also forget how just exhausting that is when you always have to make the assumption Okay, I'm black so people are going to discriminate against me and I have to prove myself over and over again That's a very very powerful answer and I I and I think that yes, should your storytelling power again Which you mentioned Jim. Thank you for the good question We have more questions coming and there's one that comes from our friend Tom Hames And it was a very practical question. How do we get the political leadership? Like my own Texas to be vulnerable instead of defensive Or just plain awful I was just I've lived in Texas for 12 years. I was at University of Texas at Austin and So I know about situation very well and unfortunately and you know There's a lot of these politicians there who are just out for power and it's not gonna be the politicians who are gonna change It's the people who have to change and that's you know, something I really emphasize as you know Empathy is not absolution first of all. It's something my friend Greg Sattel says all the time and I say that because There are toxic people out there who you just you you're not going to be able to connect with them and there are people out there who? You know, you have to understand, you know, sure you can have empathy for them But you don't have to agree with them actually you can vehemently disagree with them and still you know try to make those Connections but and you know, I just saw I was sharing on Facebook with some friends the you know What they're doing around trans youth and in Texas, which is just horrifying and so I think that It's what what up the people I'm trying to target are the people who could eventually you know Hopefully you'll vote these people out of office if that's what they want to do And so it's important to start sharing your perspectives and stories with other people around you So my advice to Tom is is yeah, you can't legislate Culture, but you can you can influence your friends and family and sometimes not always your family as I know I have many friends You have family members they can't influence But there are people you can influence and we have to you know, I mean we can't just step back and say I'm not going to do anything Because it's just too much. It's the little things that actually can build into more So as I'm kind of social movement or a cultural transformation Yeah, and I want to because I'm seeing Katie's story issue about storytelling and empathy Actually, yeah, we have to we have to Create examples So I want to tell a story about what I did in my own classroom this semester because we're talking about race issues and indigenous Issues and so many different things and so one of the things I did in the classroom Actually is I started off and I reached out to some friends on on Facebook and political science It said hey Do you guys have your doc? I mean I have my own documentation on how to create a brave and safe space because I do these workshops all the time But I wanted to see how other colleagues were doing it in the classroom space And so I found some great resources and what I did is I the first day of class You know, I can give the introduction, but then it's okay the next class We're gonna sit down or we're on zoom at the time and we're gonna break it into groups And I want you guys to give me three different things each group to give me three different things You want us to make sure we do in the class and I gave them, you know Some ideas we have to be respectful and you know so on and allow people to make mistakes, etc But you can create that environment in your classroom. It's you know, it's not easy necessarily at times But I have to say you know first of all it sets a tone for the class and the students know What to expect and that they are going to be heard even if they have a you know a difference of opinion with somebody and You know, I also created an online forum So that students who didn't feel like they could speak up in class could speak up in the forum And it's really just been amazing the students have just been you know, I mean we did a class on citizenship on Discussion Tuesday, and I've never heard so many amazing stories, you know about And so we get storytelling happening in the classroom where one student talked about how her Italian Mother went back and got citizenship in Italy when they they were offering it to Italians But then she took up the next step and really Talked about how that was something that related to immigration and race because they want to reach out to Italians in the US Who you know, we're you know, typically white so that they could have more Italian Citizens who bit what they felt was Italian What is it? What a story? I mean are those students undergrads or grad students undergrad upper division undergrads Well, again, thank you for the For the question we have that you hoisted from chat speaking of which there was a There was a comment here. I want to make sure I get it right From Kelly Simpson Kelly if I have this wrong, please please correct me She says that there is the progression from Compassion empathy or simple compassion and how that manifests action and she actually begins by talking about Cognitive empathy as more of a teacher skill versus emotional Kelly if you want to join us by the way here, I'll just make it even easier There's a podium there and you just click that if you want to join us if you can otherwise just please type in the chat And I'll be happy to voice that so cognitive empathy Emotional empathy and the kind of progression from there. What do you think about that? Well, absolutely. There's definitely so it's easy, you know Cognitive empathy is easier because it doesn't require you to you'll really dig into the emotional side of things and And then you know, and I'm not a psychologist. So this is you know, not my particular area of expertise, but I've had to really think through you know Kind of there's almost a progression in terms of empathy and that's why I came up with these six steps because It's like how do you get to that emotional component if you haven't done the internal work first? So I think the internal work is really critical to get beyond that top Just the cognitive empathy and compassion really so compassion is wonderful But it doesn't necessarily lead to action and that's why I think that internal work is a critical component to get to And we have to do that internal work. Our students are you know are pretty insightful and You know and we also have to model, you know that idea of making mistakes and You know, I You know, it's it's hard to do in the class Because you know, you're the sage on the stage and then all that but I think it's important to you know I mean my students can look at my book and you know, they can see all kinds of modeling, but I Think it's important to tell our stories, you know and talk about how you know Even I talk about what it was like when I was a student or working with my boys Who once it was in college and one who's on the way and say hey I can see what you guys are dealing with because I deal with it with my my own sons and my own experiences This is getting more and more complex and at the same time more and more powerful Which is terrific We had a very practical question from Don Shullis a good friend of the program and asked can you tell us about free? Resources that viewers can use to make radical empathy of practice Yes, absolutely because and actually I'm gonna put the link to the reading guide So even if you don't have a copy of the book you can actually You know use the reading guide as a means to You know See the difference. Yeah, it's kind of a shortcut and it also but the the nice thing about the reading guide is that it also You know has various. Sorry. Yeah, it's not that's coming through or not but You know additional resources, so I have a you know, it's not just my book there's you know all kinds of books you can look at to that are helpful in terms of Understanding the different components. So I'll mention a few Isabel Wilkerson's book the warmth of other sons had a big impact on me In terms of understanding my own parents and their the great migration and how they ended up where they did And my mother came from Louisiana and went to Los Angeles and there's a great story in the warmth of other sons about that Heather McGee's book the sum of us is just wonderful in terms of understanding structural discrimination and and how it Impacts us in various ways. She starts off talking about how you know many cities and and Counties drained pools because they didn't want to have them desegregated, you know And this you know, you got I'm sure many of you know the storage about schools, you know shutting down schools and Yeah, sorry the file link isn't working. I'm not sure why that is but Well, any case if you go to if you go to the Bristol University Press website and type in radical empathy then The publisher has a whole list of including the reading guide a whole list of resources as well My web link well here. Let me try putting my web link in In any case, yeah, there's and plus if you just Google me besides the talk today I've done tons of podcasts and and webinars and and there we go. Thank you Hopefully, I don't know if that you can copy and paste the link. I believe So In any case Yeah, that's actually I was linking from the the somebody saying it's linked somewhere But I was actually I cut cut copied the Link from the website, but anyway, that's fine. If you go to the website, you can download it. Yeah, there we go Don, thank you for the very practical question and Terry. Thank you for the rich answer. Those are some great We have more questions and friends if you can tell that Professor Givens is extremely Welcoming to all questions. So please don't be shy And also if you'd like to join us on stage for video just press that little Podium button and you can join us We have a question from David Scobie who comes back to this some of the emotional questions here How do you think about the role of anger as a barrier to empathy? Maybe as a source of agency maybe in connection with empathy How do you deal with anger in others in engaging race and racism? well, I have a that's a very Excellent question David because Again, I have stories but For me anger was something really difficult to deal with because I grew up with a mother who had and I talk about this in the book Borderline personality disorder and so for me her you know what ice when I saw anger I saw you know my mother Exploding right and so and then on the other side. I had my father who was very you know Reserved and you know so on so For me anger was a very negative emotion and it took me many years of therapy To figure out no if you don't express your anger In a constructive way than it just eats you up inside and so I learned how to deal with my anger in a more constructive way and so for me personally that was my I had a pretty long path to figuring out how to deal with anger but also You know in terms of anger more broadly you know, it could be hard when somebody is confronting you with anger and And I think what's important is not to feed into that and to you know respond similarly but You know, that's a place where maybe some compassion might be helpful, but it you know It really depends on the particular situation And you know, I certainly feel a lot of anger about the way we've dealt with race and other issues in this you know in this country But I also know I need to channel it into constructive ways to create change and so that's I mean that's part of the reason I wrote this book is to try and to find ways to You know get because you know anger is a very strong emotion, but it also can be utilized to Mobilize right so I think we have to look at taking our anger as a means of mobilizing folks to say, you know Look, we'd be you know, we don't want this to be happening anymore And we need to change it and so anger, you know is powerful, but it can also be You know it means to that can help us lead to change but I really think it has to be combined with a broader understanding and educating ourselves about You know Rather than just you know acting You know with immediate, you know emotion but taking up for me It's taking a step back and saying what's really going to create that change is it, you know me You know being out there marching in the streets or talking to my Politicians getting my friends and neighbors to vote, you know, there's all these different ways to address it Well, and political scientists can help us with that in great detail. Yes, absolutely Don Charlis in the chat says very eloquently sometimes the pain is talking Yes, absolutely David David scoby. Thank you for the great question. David's the lead by the way of bringing theory to practice Which is a fantastic fantastic group? More questions are coming. This is great You're clearly Striking a theme that people really want to explore This is I guess we were shifting a little more closely into the classroom or at least the campus setting Jim Vanities has a follow-up question. Mind is blown. So as an online instructor How do I get better identifying structural discrimination in my course department at university? Well, you know, there's lots of ways. I mean the first is to take a look at you know I mean, it's a very complicated question because you know, this it's funny I was just talking with some colleagues about the student life cycle and We often, you know, we get our students at a particular point in their life cycle But it goes all the way back to K through 12 to how they apply to whether they're admitted or not to you I mean, there's so many different points and I'm trying to encourage my colleagues to think about the student like the broader student lifestyle and and Thinking about where do we need to provide those interventions to undermine structural discrimination? So we know K through 12 Discrimination in our school systems is pretty well at least for me. It's pretty obvious and the way that we do funding and And so on and so I work with a lot of organizations that Including when I'm on the board of foundation for a college education that helps kids Starting in freshman year of high school to make sure it's because in California if you don't take a certain set of courses You aren't even eligible for the public UC system And so and a lot of parents don't know it's first generation Especially don't know that all these you know things you have to do starting from freshman year to get there So I mean I'm broadening your question Jim But we if we start to understand that a lot of our students are facing these challenges You know even before they get to us then we can start to think about how do we mitigate some of those at different points of the System so for example, you know, I mean just You know as you're thinking about teaching your students You know keeping in mind that some of them, you know may not understand some of the terminology you're using You know taking a step back and saying, you know asking your students, you know, what's what's your experience? You know, do you need extra help on particular areas? And knowing that they are coming from very different backgrounds and and Only different levels of support making sure you tell them what resources are you know as faculty I've seen this happening more and more since I started out that we're you know trying to provide more resources for students to help them at different points of the You know system as they enter and go through And you know in our classes, you know, whether it's writing their math skills All these different things so but the first step I think is really thinking about who is who are these students sitting in front of me and You know, what can I do to make this learning experience more equitable and inclusive for them? And that's really dependent on who you're looking at and where they're coming from This is I mean, do you think terry that maybe this is a way to begin the first year student experience as with Radical empathy exercises and practices and that would be But it's not just the first year students. It's the first year. It's the faculty, right? I mean, that's what I've spent a lot of this last year doing is just training our and I haven't really even broken up I've started with our leadership team. You're training them in radical empathy. So that when you know, it's funny We were a group of back one of the vice Provost Scott started a group to talk about kind of innovation and teaching and you know, they played out their terms of reference and all that I talked to the teacher and I said, well, have you guys thought about, you know, inclusion and equity in this process? Oh, well, maybe we need to add another Art to our terms of reference and and really that my goal is to take a step back and say Let's put an equity lens over everything that we do Because if we don't it's not just black students or You know, indigenous students or whoever who are impacted all of our students are impacted So if we start to look at things with more of an equity lens You know, then we we can make sure that we aren't exclude, you know, we are you know, unfortunately students are gonna get excluded You know, we can't fix everything at once. But if we can at least start with that equity lens You know, then we can begin to You know start to address some of the things that we don't even think about because we're just it's what we're used to You know, you have to really challenge the status quo Which is uh, which is a lot I do want to ask if if I could uh Jim just do you have Jim asked a question about teaching online? And of course, we all know I have a lot more experience with that than we did just three years ago Are there any particular dimensions for this? For this work in the online experience that is do you do you prefer that people Use video as opposed to texture images because the video you can see a whole person Do you do you have a preference for asynchronous versus synchronous work with technology and trying to do radical empathy? If you just say a little bit more about that Um, yeah, I think that um synchronous is much easier in terms of you know, the radical empathy component but um, I you know, like I said, I I actually am working with the company to develop some sync asynchronous courses to help you know because part of the question is how do you scale this up, right? And um So I think we're you know the only way to scale it up because you know people You know want me as well as the the radical empathy and I I'm one person and you as you noted at the beginning I do a lot so um But you know in so we have to learn how to utilize asynchronous in a way that is meaningful and so I'm coming up with like little modules and things that um You know, we can address some of the issues that I think students But you know, even in my own classroom, right? I'm using asynchronous and synchronous means because um, I think that the underlying issue here is we need to provide a variety of ways for students to You know interact but also like when I'm training, you know other faculty and so on and so There's no one set way to do it, but we have to learn how to use all of these tools synchronous asynchronous, you know You know face-to-face You know in ways that allow people to get this in in in different ways Excellent. Thank you. Uh, wendy williams Asked about this as well in the chat. She was curious about how can she respond in asynchronous online course to students making themselves vulnerable And talking about discriminations. I think I think that addresses it and our good friend lisa durf Mentioned quote I begin class with a synchronous video meeting for all I have all students thanking me for connections. So that's that's very powerful. Yeah, but the other way is um to set up small group Meetings with students synchronously so online, so that's what I did is um, you know, I would set up small, you know, or even office hours Right synchronous office hours for students to come or invite a student if you see they're having they're struggling or raise something in class Either asynchronously or synchronously. So there's there's so many ways to do that Well, this is uh So thank you wendy for the good question. Thank you lisa for the uh, lisa just chimed in so that she does virtual office hours, too Um, I love how how practical this is getting But we have a a kind of foundational question from john hallenbeck and and this is this is a this is a deep kind of a Very very powerful question. I wanted to make sure that we could Grapple with this seriously is the current academic environment worthy of this discussion Can it structurally accommodate cultures beyond white european veils? Does it really provide useful learning? um My answer to that is um Yes, and You know, it's it's not a yes You know, this is a great environment, but it's yes, and we we have a lot of work to do um, so the current academic environment, I would say um, is changing. I mean, I've seen it change in my 20 years or more more in higher ed and um, and don't forget that there are institutions like hbcu's and others that are But even often in those environments, you might see a more euro-centric approach to learning. Um But you know, we've all kind of grown up in here in the u.s. At least in this kind of you know I mean, it's like saying even you know, even k through 12 is that way. So I don't think Higher ed is any different than the rest of our society in terms of being very euro-centric. So I wouldn't pick you know, I mean yes, um Higher ed is is more resistant to change and you know One of the things I just posted on facebook recently is that If you find yourself saying that this is the way we've always done things then it means that you you need to change it So, you know, I I think that there is value and the way we do things But it is painfully slow as lisa just said And there are high barriers to entry, but um You know people like me are working on that, you know at miguel. We now have You know a lot more Black faculty than they did a couple years ago. It's not enough and there's a lot more work to do but You know, we have to take on these challenges and you know, we're not going to change these structures I mean in terms of the broader, you know, we're we're going to have the these institutions are very Resilient in many ways And so I really think we need to Find ways to create change within these instate institutions Some aren't you know, I have you know, I know some of the folks who I have these ongoing discussions with Including brian are here and and we we're constantly talking about this. You know, how do we change? Make crates, you know significant and lasting change in higher education to make it more accessible and inclusive And it's an ongoing discussion. So, you know, I'm not the kind of person who's you know, I'm not going to give up Certainly because of the nature of these institutions, but I do think you know, we can see change happening Well, thank you. First of all, just uh, fatima you seem to be having a problem connection If you can hear me, why don't you just reload the page? That might improve it. Otherwise, you may have a connection speed issue on your end If you can't hear me, I also just type that out In the chat Or if you want to chat me, let me know what's going on Terry, thank you for that heartfelt nuanced answer to an incredibly deep and Almost despairing question. John. Thank you for for coming up with that. That's very very powerful We have more questions that are still coming in George station our good friend here has A question that builds on part of this He asks how might radical empathy connect with culturally responsive teaching culturally relevant pedagogy and similar concepts through the equity lens so I think culturally responsive teaching is great and so on the But I think those of us who are using those methods or you know teachers need to take a step back and understand how That's why I start with the you know understanding, you know yourself being vulnerable and Because I think a lot of times people come at this culturally responsive teaching with that white supremacy frame Right. It's you know And so if you you can't understand that you're you're coming at it what framework you are coming at it from then You know, you you you are only reifying those You know Approaches that are you know not supportive or inclusive of a wide range of students. And so That's why I say you have to start with yourself and understand what perspective you are coming from before you start to take on these approaches that are trying to deal with You know a long-standing set of structural discrimination and white supremacy I'm starting with yourself. That's the first step Friends we have uh, just about 10 minutes left. So if you have any questions now is a time to uh, to plunge them in Um, and we have a couple uh one from Lynn Sibulski Uh, and Lynn asks another very practical question What advice would you give to college brown minority students regarding how to evaluate majority white institutions? Well, I'm just doing that right now with my own children My one I have one son at Lewis and Clark College in Portland and my younger son is a senior in high school and he's in the process of deciding where to go so so, um I mean You know, and I'm somebody who went to predominantly white institutions. I you know, I did my undergrad at stanford and My phd at ecla And you know, I just you know, it's funny, you know, I didn't have any experience or understanding of you know HBC use because I grew up and spoke in washington and And frankly, I don't think my parents would have steered me that way because you know, they their families had left the south long ago But I do encourage students nowadays to look at hbc use because actually if you look at you know Kind of the broader black excellence in the u.s A lot of those people came from hbc use and were successful and so I think hbc use and they're getting a lot of support and attention now But you know, not it's not they're not for everybody and so, you know for for my Younger son. Oh my older son. He's very much So I think it's really you have to look at what's the best fit for each student So I don't try to generalize because you know for my son who went to loson clark. That's a very predominantly white institution but they are also, you know, they just Actually, she was the vice president for student affairs now is going to be a black woman Is going to be the president of loson clark and so I could see that the institution was very open to You know broadening their approach to diversity when they initially Hired robin holmes Sullivan to be their VP for student affairs and and you know, my son felt comfortable there He has you know, lots of good friends and for my younger son You know, it's more of an issue of You know, he's got adhd and I want him to be in a nurturing environment when it comes to you know access and you know Accommodations and and all of that so I you know, it depends on on the the student and you know, I like I said, I work with these organizations and they they You know, it's funny the west coast organizations have really had to refocus their efforts and Look at hbc us and and other you know colleges that might have a larger You know minority populations and you know, give those kids more options. So Yeah Well, thank you. Thank you. That's um I really appreciate especially how how you dove into individual People an individual fit and how important that is Thank you Lynn for a really really good question We have another question coming in from rick sleuter Let me bring this up on stage here What happens in the classroom means everything Yeah, shaping the culture and creating a sense of urgency of the need for change is necessary to get a university to move Any additional suggestions? Yes, and I believe inclusive leadership is top down and bottom up and the reason I was willing to go to mcgill For example, is that they you know, they had already developed a strategy to address the anti-block racism I wasn't coming in and having to create something new Um, they were very committed to it as we can see in the actual results of you know, I mean Tell a lot of stories about the hiring we've done which is just spinning of really incredible people, but um You know, if you don't have that buy-in at the top It's really hard for you know people to to who are working from the classroom level and so on to to get that That change going and so But those people who are you know faculty and students are what often what creates change So it's the ongoing demands of faculty and students that often get the leadership to change but also to get those the right leadership in place and you know, the other thing I really encourage people to do is um, you know, we need allies to be stepping up into those positions And you know, that's everything from you know being department chair to you know working on you know being on the faculty council to focus on inclusive Uh, you know curriculum and pedagogy and to make those to make you know get your faculty councils and senate's to to say We need to be more inclusive You know and to do that you got to get people and it's not just saying you know Terry you have to go join the faculty council It's I need my allies to go and join the allies to go and join the faculty council and to take those leadership positions And you know to make sure that we're doing things in a way that is is going to um, you know increase our support and and acceptance and And uh creating a better environment for students of all backgrounds Nicely said very well said um, and thank you again for the uh for the powerful question rick And rick is uh coming to us from a vice provost position. So he's someone who knows exactly where he speaks from um The since since we're coming close to the end and right now there's a pause in that torrent of questions Let me take the moderators privilege and ask and ask you one What might a college university look like? Say six years down the road if they embrace radical empathy for the for the whole system for residents life for pedagogy for Research, but how does that campus look different in say six years or so? Well, first of all, they'll have students blocking to go there because they know It's a place where they're going to feel welcome. I mean the interesting thing is we look I swear, you know for both students and faculty we often look at higher ed as is the hazing process You know, we're going to throw you into this calculus class and we're you know, you 50% of the students fail and can't go on to you know study pre-med and We need to get out of that attitude and I have to say, you know We went to some links on that when I was at University of Texas of Austin We had a really great Vice-pro post David Laudy who has lots of great stories about how he changed his practices and said wait a second these students got in I shouldn't be you know hazing them and making it difficult for them to you know get through and so if we look at it from a more, you know, nurturing perspective from saying we actually, you know We want you to come and once you're here We want you to get through and we you know, we aren't going to throw a whole bunch of hurdles in your way In fact, we're going to give you this support and resources So, I mean you're going to see an institution that has programs, you know bridge programs somebody's talking about How they getting more students acculturated to college So when I was at ethios and we in at mental college when I was provost there We created these bridge programs and but you know stepping back and getting to the high school level and supporting high schools And working with students or these organizations like foundation for a college education That acculturation can start in high school And then we can create bridge programs that help students who are first-gen or new and help them, uh, you know understand the unwritten curriculum and You know all these things you need to understand to to be successful in college and how to go to office hours and You know how to um use the writing center in the library and all these different things and And then thinking about training faculty so that they understand that their job is you know, first of all teach faculty how to teach Which we don't do um, also Help faculty understand, you know, which is what I was doing a couple years ago But that's kind of fallen by the wayside is training faculty to understand what it means to be an administrator um, and You know get more faculty of goodwill into administrative positions so that we can start creating the change that will Lead to a more inclusive environment and treating our junior faculty Like human beings and our grad students, you know, I mean there's so many ways to to talk about this This is this is radical In in in the chat folks have come with a few different additions Uh lisa recommends that we need to change our mindset from half fail to 100 ace courses And uh, it it resonates for me. I think what you're describing with the idea of uh 360 degree or wraparound services that universities and colleges are that much more supportive John uh holmbeck uh mentioned no, excuse me jim venides mentions the classic look to your left Look to your right of the three of you all of you have what it takes to succeed, which is a remarkable thing Oh, we uh kelly simpson has snuck in under the wire. Uh, she's got one more question I want to make sure we get this up If time and that know what resources do you recommend for teaching faculty to teach That is an area where actively digging into it my institution um, yes, uh, so You know, I wish we would do something when they're still in graduate school I mean, you know what drives me crazy is that you are at these institutions of higher education that actually have schools that Teach pedagogy and how to develop curriculum, you know schools of education and we there's no interaction So if you are at an institution that has a school of education I would highly recommend that you reach out to them and have them, you know Some schools also have teaching and learning centers or programs um, but you know, if I were if I had a magic wand Um, first of all, I would start with graduate students But you know, since we aren't teaching our graduate students how to teach for the most part I would say, you know, every new faculty member should have You know their first semester off and they should have to take courses on how to teach and how to but also not just on how to teach But on what the culture of the institution is, you know Shadowing a good teacher You know, how to use the giving them real information and hands-on experience with using the You know universities different systems for you everything from, you know, the course management to You know grading systems to, you know I mean you're expected to learn this stuff on the fly and or to take some online module You really need to sit down with people say, okay We're going to have a we're going to sit down and walk you through how to set up a class and you know how to Submit your grades and you know all these different things So if it were up to me, you know faculty wouldn't start off just jumping into the classroom like I did 20 years ago they would actually You know be able to sit down and walk through all these different things so that when they start that next semester They aren't just, you know flailing and trying to figure things out on their own That's This all sounds like staggeringly radical. Um, and yet and yet incredibly just And humane to everybody In the chat, uh, one person, uh, praised you for mentioning administrators. I think that's kerry panel All the way to the students and faculty and I I love the way you've broken this out into different different categories We are out of time, but in the meantime, you've given us a vision of a transformed campus I can I make one last comment to david's because one other thing I did And I was at menlo college is we actually brought alumni in to Provide feedback and commentary on our curriculum And it was amazing. I mean, you know, it helped us update the curriculum and make sure that we were providing the latest information So that they would you know when they went out to get jobs, they weren't behind What's happening in marketing or things like that? So anyway one last Well, that's a great comment to add. Um, listen, how can we keep up with you besides, you know, When we're done reading radical empathy, what's what's the best way? Do we follow you on twitter or Yeah, well i'm on i'm on all social media. Yeah, twitter, um, facebook The two best places to follow me are twitter and linkedin. I post there pretty regularly Um, I was excited to get a 10 out of 10 on room raider uh on twitter Which I was using a very different background, but um in any case, um, and then terry gibbons.com But that's in the process of changing and for those who are interested Like if you're interested in workshops or anything, we do provide those and it's um with your brighter professional development all one word.com Or just reach out via email. Um terry at terrygibbons.com is uh my personal kind of consulting email Very nice. Very nice. And joel bloom just raced in and put your linkedin there. Um, we can find you everywhere. Thank you Thank you for this book. Let's google me. There aren't a lot of terry gibbons is out there We need a lot more of you Thank you for this book. Thank you for this hour of conversation and thank you for everything dude terry Thanks, it's really great to see you again, brian, and I hope we get to meet face to face someday soon I can't wait. I can't wait as soon as we get past all of this. Thank you. Absolutely. Take care But don't leave yet friends. Let me just point out where we're headed over the next few weeks And thank you for all these fantastic questions If you'd like to keep talking about empathy about structural racism about can the academy be overhauled productively Follow us on twitter use the hashtag Keep these ideas going or head over to my blog brian alexander.org if you'd like to keep more of this conversation going If you want to look ahead We have more topics coming up on the forum including the climate crisis libraries and careers Minority students on campus public higher ed whatever web three years and how to transform the academy Just go to forum that future of education that us to learn more If you'd like to go back into our past sessions If you'd like to look into our previous sessions on mental health on empathy and especially on race and racism Just go to tinyworld.com slash ftf archive And above all everybody. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you for thinking Together. Thank you for as terry puts it being vulnerable with each other. Thank you for all these ideas Good luck working. This is a wild month with an awful lot going on My best wishes for all of you for your safety. Please take care and we'll see you next time online Bye. Bye