 Good evening, and welcome to the William G. McGowan Theater at the National Archives. I'm Charlie Flanagan with the Center for Legislative Archives, and I'm pleased you could join us for tonight's conversation, whether you're here in the theater or joining us on YouTube or Facebook. Representing this program in partnership with the 2020 Women's Vote Centennial Initiative, the National Council of Negro Women, the League of Women Voters of the National Capital Area, and Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, and we thank them for their support. This panel discussion is also the culmination of today's Teacher's Open House, and we extend a warm welcome to all the educators who are with us this evening. Before we get started, I'd like to let you know about two other programs coming up soon in this theater. On Monday, September 16th at 7 p.m., Supreme Court Associate Justice Neil Gorsuch will be here to tell us about his new book, A Republic If You Can Keep It. Drawing on his 30-year career as a lawyer, teacher, judge, and justice, he explores the essential aspects of the Constitution. And on Wednesday, September 18th at 7 p.m., we present a special advanced performance of 19, the musical, which uses music, spoken word, and dance to tell the story of the fearless women who fought for the right to vote and passage of the 19th Amendment. Check out our website, archives.gov, or sign up at the table outside the theater to get email updates. You'll also find information about other National Archives programs and activities. Another way to get more involved with the National Archives is to become a member of the National Archives Foundation. The Foundation supports the work of the agency, especially its education and outreach programs. Check out their website, which is archivesfoundation.org, to learn more about them and to join online. Tonight's discussion is part of a series of programs related to our special exhibit in the Lawrence Epo-Brian Gallery, Rightfully Hers, American Women and the Vote. Rightfully Hers commemorates the centennial of the 19th Amendment and tells the story of women's struggle for voting rights as a critical step toward equal citizenship. The exhibit explains and explores how American women across the spectrum of race, ethnicity, and class advanced the cause of suffrage and it follows the struggle for voting rights beyond 1920. One of the featured documents in the exhibit is an 1877 petition signed by African American women and men in support of women's suffrage. Two of the signatories were children of Frederick Douglass, Rosetta Douglass Sprague and Frederick Douglass Jr. Though their names are well known, countless other African Americans petitioned, promoted, and marched to secure the right to vote. One way women organized for the right to vote was through a robust network of black women's clubs. Activist and journalist Ida B. Wells Barnett, a co-founder of the Alpha Suffrage Club in Chicago, traveled to Washington, D.C. to join the 1913 March for Women's Suffrage as a delegate from Illinois. When she was told to march at the back of the parade with other African American women, she refused and marched with her state delegation. As rightfully hers points out, the 19th Amendment did not ensure the right to vote to all women and it examines the ways women were denied the vote for reasons other than sex. For decades, past 1920, African American women and men fought against restrictions on their constitutional right to vote. Tonight, we look forward to hearing from our panelists about the role African American women played in the suffrage movement and the barriers they faced. But first, I would like to introduce Krista Jones and invite her to come to the stage. Krista is the co-chair of the Women's Vote Centennial Initiative. There's an African proverb that states, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I really think that that proverb sums up how I feel about the inclusion or also the exclusion of African American women and other women from the women's suffrage movement. In December 2017, I believe our country realized something that a lot of people have known for a long time. When Doug Jones was elected in the special election as an Alabama senator, we started to realize with the numbers how powerful and influential and impactful the black women's influence is in politics. I talked to my father about that. He is a 60-something Navy captain. And he's lived through the civil rights movement. We always have a lot of conversations about race. And I said, you know what's really interesting is that a lot of times the black women and white women are doing the same thing, like voter registration, which you would think should be colorblind, separately. Why aren't we advocating together? Why aren't we doing those things together to take us to the next level as women and as a country? So I decided to conduct some focus groups to bring together black women and white women to talk about some of those differences and where those challenges began. So in this conversation today, I'm sure that your panelists will talk a lot about that, how it began with slavery even before and has persisted since. And we still have those challenges in terms of working together today. The Women's Vote Centennial Initiative was founded in 2015 by the National Women's Party and the League of Women Voters as they started to look forward five years to next year to figure out how we could document and raise awareness about the Women's Vote Centennial. So today we're comprised of almost 30 task force organizations who are dedicated to conducting events and really also trying to think about what happens after 2020. So we do all this to celebrate and commemorate women's right to vote. But some of the problems that are in our communities will still exist. So what happens next? So I really encourage you all to start thinking about that. So as we have these conversations now and throughout 2020, what will you be doing to make sure we can go farther together? Thank you. It's now my pleasure to welcome the panel to the stage. Our moderator this evening is Scott Abbott, Social Studies Director for District of Columbia Public Schools. The panelists are Elia Bundles, author of On Her Own Ground, The Life and Times of Madam C.J. Walker, Shirley Moody Turner, Professor of African American Studies at Pennsylvania State University, and Elsa Barkley-Brown, Professor of History and Women's Studies at the University of Maryland. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming our panel. All right, good evening everyone. My name is Scott Abbott. I am the Director of Social Studies for DC Public Schools and delighted to be here this evening with some wonderful panelists to my right, your left. Again, I think we have just sort of at the far side, we have Shirley Moody Turner, who is the Associate Professor of English and African American Studies at Pennsylvania State University, and also the author of an upcoming biography of Anna Julia Cooper. So let's join me in welcoming Shirley Moody Turner. We also have Elia Bundles, who is the great, great-granddaughter of Madam C.J. Walker, and also, yes, that's exciting, right? And also a noted journalist and historian, let's welcome Elia Bundles. And just to my rights, we have Professor Elsa Barkley-Brown, Professor of History and Women's Studies at the University of Maryland. Let's please welcome Elsa Barkley-Brown. As we go through the program this evening, you'll see that we have some slides behind us, and so we may, we'll be moving through those as the questions sort of lead us to different images. We also will be addressing some questions directly to the panelists, both as a whole group and then some more individually. We'll try, we will be saving some time to transition to questions from the audience by about eight to ten or so. So if you have some questions that you're thinking of as we go through and you hear some responses, please kind of keep those in your mind and we will have a chance to get to those a little bit later in the program. And then we will wrap things up in a little bit over an hour and 15 minutes or so. So our first question, really, that frames the entire evening is what is the role that black women played in the suffrage movement and really what barriers they faced as they, as they tried to overcome their involvement in that movement. So my question for our panelists, and we'll start with Shirley, if that's okay, and then kind of move our way down this way. But our question is, as we're at now the centennial of the 19th Amendment, how has the narrative of women's suffrage been reframed recently? That's a great question to start with, a big one and an important one. And I just also want to say thank you very much to the National Archives for having us and for hosting this conversation. Thank you all for joining us. We did hear that the teachers had a long day, so we appreciate you coming out and joining us this evening. I think that the way it's being reframed now is really the way that Christina spoke about in the beginning and thinking about how people were active in the 19th Amendment, in the push for the 19th Amendment across race and class, and how they were involved in it differently. And so black women were always involved and active in the push for suffrage, even coinciding with the marker of the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention, coinciding with even proceeding that. And so I think now we're starting to challenge those kind of traditional narratives a little bit and to think about we've had these histories based on key moments and key exceptional figures, and they've tended to be seen as a kind of white woman's movement by and large. And so I think people, through historians working from that moment onward, they're always black historians and biographers and bibliographers who are telling the story of black women's involvement in the abolitionist movement as they push for women's rights. And so I think we're starting to see a real shift in the conversation that says we have to think about the 19th Amendment in a way that involved a lot of different voices and, you know, in a way that celebrates it, yes, but also recognizes the limitations of the 19th Amendment that, you know, it didn't enfranchise Native American women or Asian American women who weren't considered citizens or, you know, the challenges of black women in the South faced almost immediately, right, in terms of the different strategies for restricting the vote. And so I think there's, you know, there's been an important reframing and we're looking at it in much more complicated ways now and ways I think is really exciting for recovering a kind of vast array of histories and building on the work of historians, you know, folks on this panel who have done so much of that work and really reframing the way we think about the 19th Amendment. So I mean, one of the things that I've noticed here at the National Archives, the exhibit rightfully hers, the exhibit at the Library of Congress, the exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery, just three examples, that in the planning of all of those exhibitions, the curators were trying to make sure that they were very inclusive, that they recognized just the importance of what Susan B. Anthony did and what the women's, national women's suffrage organizations did, but they took things beyond that. And so that the story was not just about a couple of key historical figures. I mean, I'm old enough that I, you know, when I was in high school, in history class, women and people of color were essentially left out of the narrative. And then there were, then there were some suffragettes, as they were called, that suffragist, Susan B. Anthony, who got included. But these new exhibitions and the conversation around the centennial is really looking at the ways that lots of different women were involved. So I'm really applauding the institutions for doing that. I think the other thing to sort of add on to what you were saying is that African American women in particular were exercising their leadership in organizations while they weren't included all the way through in the suffrage organizations. They were exercising leadership and talking about women and voting in their church organizations. They were asserting themselves in missionary societies in making sure that women were being allowed to preach. And so they were parallel, they were parallel movements with African American women also thinking very much about women's right to vote. But they also were facing lynching and Jim Crow. And so they knew that their fight was on several different stages. So I think that if we're thinking about what's happening in this centennial moment and the way that things are being refrained, we might also think about the pushback against that and so to understand that this is still a struggle to tell a different story. You may be aware of the recent struggle in New York to figure out what the suffrage statue in New York City would be and the enormous resistance to including sojourner truth because people wanted that statue to only be Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan Anthony and only in the last month, I believe, have they finally agreed that sojourner truth could be included in that. So we're having one conversation, but there are other conversations out there. And so the centennial is an opportunity to broaden out the conversation who's having that and to think about ways to tell the story and to tell the story broadly. So it has kind of larger influence and impact. Absolutely. So I think a trend I'm hearing from all three of you is this idea that the narrative is broadening, including additional perspectives, some of which were there all the time, but maybe we're being marginalized and not really focused on to the extent that maybe you're starting to come to the surface a little bit today. We have an image of sojourner truth in the background as was referenced just now and another one which comes from a 1915 issue of the crisis. I'm wondering for the panelists as you look at this image, to what extent do we see any connections to this broadening of the narrative? Are there any connections here? What do you think of when you see this image? Well, I think it's interesting because so this is the 1915 issue of the crisis edited by W.E.B. DuBois and the issue took up, it was a symposium to take up women's suffrage and you can see DuBois who is always very conscious of how to portray words and images. So the image that he portrays here is, well, I mean, Lincoln is standing over truth, but this is, sojourner truth is right there, this kind of founding mother along with this kind of founding father. And so I think that the crisis was very intentional about saying sojourner truth is black women, even as a symbol of black women more largely or African-Americans more largely is this kind of central key figure in their own kind of freedom struggles, right? And I have, I don't know, maybe there's people who can analyze the visual representations but even further, but the open book I think is very significant in terms of, and sojourner truth has her hand open, but sojourner truth was supposedly quote unquote illiterate but was able to read people. And so you just have these two different kinds of knowledge being portrayed. But the crisis came in 1915, came very forthright and direct in terms of saying, yes, we are going to call in the forces to support black women's rights. And so there were a lot of different leaders in the community, African-Americans, men and women who share just small articles about the importance of black women's rights. And they really represent such a broad range of perspectives of why women need, black women need to vote from, some people were saying, well, we can't say that they shouldn't have the vote because, where they're protectors, because if you protect too long it starts to feel like oppression. So that was one argument. But then there were much more kind of somewhat sophisticated arguments. Robert Terrell argued that black women had to live under the laws that they were being administered so they should have a say. Why would they not have a say in the laws that they were subjected to? And then there were just a host in range of other arguments. Nanny Burroughs, she said it, so she just said, black women won't sell their vote out like some of these black men have done, believe you me. So there was a range, and that was one of the things that Du Bois did was, he included a range of voices in that issue and some very disparate, but I think importantly, saying from all of these multiple perspectives we do need to get on board and support black women's coverage. That's a great point that you're making here. So I'm wondering to this question of how did African-American women organize in support of making women voters and expanding on what arguments they were making? Elsa, I wonder if we can start with you to expand on that a little bit. Okay, can we go to the woman at the rescue? Yes. So I'll pick up actually with the crisis and we'll show a political cartoon from May 1916 of the crisis. I don't know how well you can see that. Yes, it's larger for you, you can see that. So I think this is sort of really interesting to think about some of the arguments that African-American men and women were making for a women's vote. The club she's holding is the federal constitution. The grandfather clause is on the ground because the Supreme Court the year before had ruled the grandfather clause unconstitutional but one of the arguments here is clearly an argument for the potential power of black women in fighting for the rights of black people generally. And so one of the arguments for a black women's vote is that in fact that the black women being able to vote would make white supremacy in sooner. I think that was an important part of it. But this cartoon to me is most interesting for some of the other things in it. The two little children there, the fact that the children are barefoot, the fact that the woman's hair is a bit un-kicked, that it's a fairly sort of plain dress. So this cartoon is really interesting to me in part because of the way in which it's actually making an argument for women's suffrage and for black women voting but it's not making an argument just for elite black women. It's not just thinking about who are the most educated or whatever. And it's also both drawing on and complicating the notion that women should have the vote because they have to, because they're mothers and they have to take care of children. So in that 1915 issue, Carly Cook, who's on the DC Board of Education writes a piece that's called Votes for Mothers. And she begins it by saying, would anybody ever ask a man to explain his right to vote by having him talk about the importance of fatherhood? But that's what they've asked him me to do. So she begins it by kind of critiquing having been asked to make that argument but then she makes that argument and talks about sometimes this are the complications of what you're thinking and what you need to do pragmatically, et cetera. And she makes an argument for women in terms of needing to be able to have some things to say about laws around sanitation and education, et cetera, to take care of their children. And then she says, and it's men who make the laws around the age of consent. And men have made laws that have put the age of consent at 16, at 14, at 12, at 10, and some at eight. And this is why we need to vote. Thank you for sharing that. So as we think about the contributions of other African-American women and how they played this, I wanna pivot over to Alelia. So as the great granddaughter of Madam T.J. Walker, so she died actually on May 25th, 1919, which was just four days after the U.S. House of Representatives passed the 19th Amendment and a few days before the Senate voted. So she wasn't actually able to vote in a federal election but yet she did support the women's suffrage movement and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about her involvement. So Madam Walker, so everybody knows Madam Walker had something to do with hair but let me just tell you that it is way beyond, way beyond that, that she organized thousands of women who were her sales agents into local and national clubs. These women were leaders in their communities and when she had her first convention, national convention in 1917, in her keynote she said to the women, I want you to understand that your first duty is to humanity. And the women talked about not just business, not just hair care, but their economic independence. And at the end of the convention, they sent a telegram to President Woodrow Wilson urging him to support legislation to make lynching a federal crime. So she really saw the intersection of economic independence and political activism that the independent income these women were able to make as her sales agents that they were to use that to better their community and they were to speak up. So for her it was very much of a yes, you need to, I mean having the right to vote, she supported candidates in elections but she wanted the women to be activists. And I will just sort of add this, that some of those women, Lucille Green Randolph who was the wife of A. Philip Randolph was a good friend of hers and a hairdresser. And that the office building where the March on Washington was organized in New York was something that Madame Walker and her daughter had helped to raise money to buy. And beauticians who had taken this activism from Madame Walker forward, beauticians helped to pay for the buses that came to Washington in 1963 for the March on Washington. So there was always a connection between politics and beauticians who were leaders in their communities. Shirley, I'll put it back to you. So you're currently working on a biography of Anna Julia Cooper. I wonder if you can tell us who she was and how her work was important to the black women's suffrage movement. So Anna Julia Cooper was a prominent 19th and 20th century intellectual and educator. She's from, lived in Washington D.C. She was born in 1858 into slavery and kind of follows the post-demanthropation kind of African-American move through reconstruction. She goes to a school, St. Augustine's, a school that was started for breed slaves. She continues on to Oberlin with Mary Church Terrell actually. And then she gets recruited to Washington D.C. where she becomes a lifelong educator at M Street, Dunbar High School. But she wrote a book in 1892 called A Voice from the South by Black Woman of the South. And the reason that this is important because Cooper is not one of those figures that you see a whole lot kind of on the front lines doing some of the work of the organizing. She was there early on, but not as much as some, say, Mary Church Terrell. But in 1892, she publishes a book called The Voice from the South. And the reason this book was so important is because she articulated what I see as the kind of black, middle-class, intellectual strategy of intervening in the national public discourse. She said, you know, how do we and why do we need to have a voice in what is happening in this national conversation? And so the book is broken up into two parts. It's speeches and essays that she had given. And it's really funny because she talks about the black woman, and this is kind of underpinning a lot of what we're talking about, that the black woman represented a kind of unique position within this conversation. So that within arguments about suffrage, about, say, the 15th Amendment, she had to deal with issues of sexism. But in arguments about the 19th Amendment, she had to deal with issues of racism. And so Cooper puts forth this argument, says, you know, famously, only the black woman can say, when and where I enter, the whole race enters with me. So she was really saying, you know, the black woman is central to this conversation. And she, one of the essays in there is called Woman Versus the Indian. And in there, she kind of goes to work, really critiquing and naming what she saw as the racism operating in the white women's suffrage movement. And it was really important because she ties this all, she kind of ties it all together to say, what's happening here in 1890 is a kind of reunionist politics where the South and the North are kind of reuniting, they're changing the memory of slavery to this benign institution, they're finding ways that they can go forward together. And what's happening is they're gonna sell black women, black people's rights down the river. And so she's really critical in naming that. She calls out, you know, people in the movement by name. And this becomes, and well, and then she also says, these are the specific concerns that black women face. You know, we face slighted womenhood. We, our person is being denigrated in the popular and public discourse. We're being thrown from trains. We're being physically abused. You know, there's this whole range of things. She had been assaulted on the train. She's referring in her talk to Ida B. Wells, who had been thrown from a train. And so she's, you know, she starts naming, what are the racial realities for black women that are being left out of both of these conversations? And so one of the things I look at is how important Cooper is and kind of, she wasn't the first to say this. Other black women had said this, but she, this is a full length articulation of this problem that she launched into the national conversation. And I think, you know, she's saying that they really need to pay attention to this. And so it becomes, I won't talk about this all here, but it becomes part of the articulation for the national colored women's clubs. So thinking, we're starting to say, we need to have our own organizations. We need to advocate for our own positions. And so I think it becomes a really important text in framing out the national perspective, the national voice of black women that they would coalesce in a couple years later. So I'm gonna pick up on that thread there. And to what extent can the panelists, can you all share, how did black women organize and what were some of the key moments in that organization at the national level among the black suffragists? Okay, but I will go first, but I actually talk about it locally because one of the things that I think in kind of rethinking and reframing the suffrage movement is a kind of rethinking of who we think are suffragists, what we think are suffrage organizations. One of the ways in which African-American women have been written out of the history is by fairly narrow definitions of what's a suffrage organization that should be included in the history and what it is to sort of fight for suffrage. So if I could use just a couple of examples and trying to get us to think sort of locally and broadly. In 1867, when the 15th Amendment is passed and across the South, states have to rewrite their constitution in order to be in accordance with the 15th Amendment. Black men and women all across the South are meeting nightly, weekly and mass meetings to figure out what it is they're going to say in those constitutional conventions. And one of the conversations that they're having on that local level, in their churches, in rural communities all across the South is whether we're going to fight for women's suffrage. So we're most used to that conversation at the national level about that, but this is a conversation that people are having on the local level and are deciding in different ways. In Nonsummon County, Virginia, the mass meeting votes that their representatives should go to the state constitutional convention and fight for women's suffrage. In Richmond, Virginia, the people arguing for women's suffrage don't win the vote, but it's more complicated than that because they don't win the vote in a Republican Party meeting in which women and children are voting and in which women and children continue to vote after they've made the decision that they're not gonna go and argue for women's suffrage. So we have to sort of think about what are some of the sort of practicalities of what's going on there and where the levels in which people are having conversations about women's suffrage. We also need to think that a lot of the work of women's suffrage has been done in churches and in mutual benefits societies and in civic clubs that don't count as suffrage organizations and that often in sort of traditional histories of women's suffrage, organizations that are not solely focused on women's suffrage as their only issue don't get to count as women's suffrage organizations. So from what we've said here, clearly the NAACP was a women's suffrage organization but it doesn't count as that in the way in which the history of women's suffrage gets written and it's part of the struggle that people are having in that the women in the NAACP in Columbus, Ohio in 1916 get a letter from the Franklin County Women's Suffrage Association asking them to support women's suffrage and they write back, asking them to support their efforts for women's suffrage and they write back, they make very clear that they personally are in, so it's interesting that the letter is sent to the women of the NAACP rather than to the local NAACP period but anyway, they write back to make clear that they are at one level supportive of women's suffrage and then they said but we can't see why we would support something that might add to our civil and political oppressors. So they're talking to these white women, they're saying you're our civil and political oppressors. What are you gonna promise us about what's gonna change about you and what you're gonna support about our rights that should make us wanna support this, should make us try to convince our husbands to vote for women's suffrage. So there's complicated conversations that people are having at the local level as well as at the national level and that they're having within their communities and that they're having across black and white conversations in that that are often left out of the sort of more traditional conversation about women's suffrage and how we know who was a suffragist and what organizations were suffrage organizations. So I think we're gonna change the narrative. We can't tell a different story merely by putting some people in. We actually have to change what we think fighting for suffrage is, what we think a suffrage organization is, et cetera, in order to actually change the narrative in a way that brings more people into it. So yeah, and just to add to that, when you talk about the NAACP, two of the women who were founders of the NAACP, Mary Burnett Talbert and Ida B. Wells were both big suffragists. Mary Burnett Talbert was in Buffalo, the one of the organizational meetings of the Niagara Movement, Dubois, in which sort of preceded the NAACP, was in her home and she was head of the Empire State Federation of Women, Women's Clubs and then later was a president of the National Association of Colored Women. So that was always very much of, both of those women were very much about suffrage for women and the National Association of Colored Women was really founded in part, as you were saying with Anna Julia Cooper, as a result of African American women not being welcomed in the white women's suffrage organization. So there were a few people who attended Adele Hunt Logan was one of the women who went to some of those meetings, but by and large this was the idea that women needed their own organization, but African American women could never focus only on the vote. They had to do social welfare and they were fighting against lynching. So there were always several different issues that the National Association of Colored Women that they were addressing. So they weren't a suffrage organization and the traditional definition of it as that was their only issue. That was one of the many issues that they had to address. And they weren't a suffrage organization because they were fighting for black women to have the vote and for black men to have the vote. And so they often weren't a suffrage organization if you were making both of those arguments together. So, and I just, I happen to be, thank goodness, newspapers.com and ProQuest and these things now you can sort of Google history. And I was Googling suffrage and black and colored the other night and I found these articles of Indianapolis, I was doing the Indianapolis Freeman. But back to the 1890s, there were always these conversations when I Googled suffrage. It was really, I was really looking for things on women but it was really a conversation about black men despite the 15th Amendment not really having the right to vote being denied the right to vote. So while we're assuming, and I think probably in this audience everyone's not assuming, but that black men really had been, the franchise had been taken away from them. So it was always a dual fight. Aliyah, you brought up the National Association of Colored Women. And Shirley, I wanted to see if I could get you to expand on that a little bit. In terms of the founding of that, why do you think that was a critical moment in the women's, black women's organizing? Well, I think for a lot of the reasons that we've all been articulating and also because I think this was a moment for black women to really intercede into the national conversation. So again, black women had always been doing suffrage work and been doing it in a lot of different kinds of ways and doing it in direct ways too, right? Like organizing to vote, testing the 14th Amendment by casting ballots. So they've been engaged in suffrage activities in direct ways, they've been engaged in it in ways that wouldn't be recognized as kind of conventional suffrage activities. And I think with the, and they had been being marginalized in white women's movements. And so I think this became a space for them to really center themselves and their, even as they were representing the larger black community, but to really center what the needs of black women were. And I love, there's one of the founding documents says, you know, we're happy for, this is for universal suffrage. We're for universal suffrage and we welcome everybody to join us. So long as they understand that we are leaders in this movement, like if they're able to get in line and kind of accept that we're in the leadership position and we're centered in this conversation and to support universal suffrage then they're happy to join our, our organization is not closed. So it wasn't closed in the same way some of the other organizations maybe weren't closed but were increasingly marginalizing black women. So at one of their first meetings, you know, Booker T. Washington was there. I think Frederick Douglass was there. No, Frederick Douglass was there. So, but they had, they had black men were participating, white men were participating. But I think that they really saw this as an important way for them to organize what was happening at the local level but then also to be able to kind of project a voice into the national conversation. We talked about a few examples and I'm wondering if any others come to mind about the differences in the ways that black women were engaging in this, this suffrage movement as opposed to the white women that were engaging in that movement. Are there other ways that you all have seen that play out and did that change over the course of the movement? Yeah, I just wanted to say one thing and to add to what you were saying that that's in this sort of 1890s period alliances were shifting and you know, things were realigning and with the national white women's suffrage movement in some ways they were trying to appeal to southern women to have them become a part of the organization and the southern strategy was to exclude black women and that was part of the pressure to create an organization. And actually to add to that as well, Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin makes the call for a national organization. She says, you know, let us confer and she puts it out in her magazine that she's editing the women's era and what prompted them was their increasing marginalization in women's suffrage movements but what really was the kind of immediate impetus was James Jackson's letter. He was a Missouri editor or an editor from newspaper editor from Missouri and he had written a letter about Ida B. Wells in which he talked about her as being holy and moral that the majority of black women were quote prostitutes and thieves and so had really denigrated her character in and it was to someone in England so they felt like this was projecting an image of black women that they really needed to stand up and to challenge and I love that they did it in defense of Ida B. Wells because it's like here is our most vocal, outspoken political advocate and we can't have her, we can't allow this kind of treatment of Ida B. Wells, I mean it's Ida B. Wells but it represents the whole group and so that was really one of the things that spurred them to call for this first convention to say, we need to confer, we need to and you know, they said, oh, we need to get in community. We need to just support each other. We need to have them in the international stage. It's like she had the attention of people in England. She was international. She was making an impact and this was this journalist's way of trying to silence her and they were like we're having none of that. And so getting to really see how were they, how they came together in that moment and not to forget that piece of it. As much as it was kind of a response to it was also a kind of proactive how do we support each other? How do we not silence, let our women activists be silenced, how do we prioritize and make sure that our needs are on the agenda you know, at the national level? I'm just trying to think of some parallels to today and all of you can let your imaginations run about members of Congress who people try to silence. We're not familiar with Congressional silencing in DC. That's not a familiar. So I think that's how question about what's different about organizing is an interesting one. So in 1900 the National Women's Suffrage Association invites Mary Church Terrell to speak about the justice of suffrage as long as she doesn't talk about race. And so I want to think about the way that the way that the story of women's suffrage is told assumes that black women suffragists have to think about race and gender. And that somehow white women suffragists are only thinking about gender. Like they're not fighting for white women's empowerment in that, like that's not also a racial argument in that. And so I think some of the things that we think are sort of differences are only differences in how we tell the story and that one of the really important things that we need to do is to really sort of in rethinking and African American women's involvement think about how that expands, how we need to think about white women suffragists as well and think about like the whole telling of that story of that because the women's suffrage movement is as many black women suffragists knew often a fight for white supremacy and white empowerment and certainly for white women's empowerment in that. So there's the document that you were going to talk about. But you want to show that. It was early in our, there we go. There we go. So we included this in the deck because we thought it was useful and especially in thinking about teaching this topic, that at some level it's hard for people, maybe students to imagine how overt some of the racism was and the arguments against black women's suffrage and against women's suffrage. And so you can see it says universal suffrage wipes out the disenfranchisement of the Negro by state law. Like that's why we can't have women's suffrage. White supremacy must be maintained because of the danger to farmer's families if Negro men vote in addition to the two million Negro women. Like how are we gonna maintain white supremacy if we enfranchise all these Negro women? You know, and so there were actually arguments being made by white women that we in the Southern white women that if you enfranchise us, we run the numbers. Our votes will outweigh enfranchising black women. So you don't have to worry about that. So there's ways in which exactly, that there was very much an argument about race happening in women's arguments about suffrage. So given things like that, what was the significance of the passage of the 19th amendment for African American women? Fannie Lou Hamer said that much. That she was really concerned with 1340, the 15th amendments with. Well, obviously some African American women, a lot of African American women, not some. A lot of African American women did get to vote. African American women in many Northern Western states came to think of their vote as a proxy vote for the Southern women who couldn't vote. That they could use their vote now to press Congress people and to get laws changed and to wipe out segregation and other things that they could use that in behalf of others. African American women in large numbers in 1920 show up to register or to try to register and vote. And in some places are successful. In Florida, which was about just a little over 40, the African American population was just a little over 40% in 1920. For the women who were registered to vote in 1920, 41% of the women registered to vote in Florida were African American women. So in large numbers they were turning out to vote. It is also the case in the 1920 election that that was one of the most violent elections in our history and that the people who then were registered and showed up to vote were beaten, the women were kicked, the places where they had been organizing the mutual benefit societies were burned down so that the response to their voting, maybe the story that I remember strikes me the most. We get good old tells the story of Indiana Little who's a school teacher in Birmingham in 1926. She's organized a massive getting women to register, black women to register to vote. And one of the things that initially women black women have initially can vote in the South that that does is sort of galvanize black men to try to push against the strictures that are keeping them from voting. So she's organized these massive voter registration drives as we might imagine from the 60s getting people out there. She's arrested for vagrancy because she's out there for long periods of time with these people trying to get them to register. She's arrested for vagrancy, put in jail, raped by the sheriff in the jail. The story of that is sent to the Department of Justice. They send it to their Southern division who says we don't have anybody who we could send to cover that. So I think there is both obviously the promise and the absolute that people do get to vote and what's the outcome of that. But there is the fact that for a lot of people, the fact that it's a promise that a hope that they try to act on only creates lots more violence in their life and turning back. And many of the same restrictions that apply to kept African American men from continuing to register to vote at least across the South for African American women. So when we think of what it is that the centennial is about, it's a misnomer to think it's about women get the right to vote. So it might, I think, actually be really important to actually think about the actual language of the amendment. And I'm gonna say, because I know I'm talking to teachers, this is one thing that's really important to do about teaching for the 15th amendment and for the 19th amendment. We often say about the 15th amendment that the 15th amendment guaranteed black men the right to vote. And we often say about the 19th amendment that it guaranteed women the right to vote. And neither amendment actually says that. What the 15th amendment says that you cannot deprive somebody the right to vote because of race. Leaving many other things you could deprive them of the right to vote with. And the 19th amendment says you cannot deprive somebody of the right to vote because of sex. Leaving many other things that African American women and many other women are deprived of the right to vote. And so we have to tell a longer suffered story that goes past 1920 and thinks about the sort of continuing struggle. And I think thinks about the real hard labor and the violence of that continuing struggle. That's part of the sort of the reframing of this is that I think many places have been very careful not to say a celebration that it is an observance of this amendment and that the right to vote continues to be a struggle. That it is not a battle that is a war that has been won that there's always a backlash. There's always a pushback when people exercise the franchise rather than it being something that is welcome that the more people who vote the happier the nation should be that there's always attention between who actually gets to vote and who's going to be disenfranchised. So I know we have many teachers in our audience here today and educators otherwise and who are faced with the challenge of getting middle school, high school, elementary school students excited and interested in learning about history as a former high school teacher myself. I know that's not always the easiest thing. Sometimes students natural inclination is maybe to think history is boring. So as you think about what advice would you give to our teachers about how they could make connections or help their students to make connections to some of the women who are involved in the suffrage movement. What advice would you give to them? That's a great question. I think what I would wanna talk about there I guess is thinking about how you can use some of the resources that are available now. So thinking even with the National Archives, right? The documents that are available, you really could do some really interesting things that get students involved in the process of kind of engaging history for themselves. So one thing, even I was kind of doing this as I was preparing, I looked at three documents. I can't remember which three though. But I looked at three documents and I said, what story do these three tell? I picked three different ones. What story do these three tell? You know, and so just in doing that, you get to think about, you know, students get to really think about what story's being told, but then also think about the process of making meaning from historical documents, right? Like, okay, I'm looking at these and I'm creating a story, but I can look at these and they tell a very different story. And how is the story that these tell similar to or different than what I'm reading in my textbook, what I know about it or don't know about it? So how is it interacting in those ways? So I think finding ways to get students maybe involved in that process, so that not only are they kind of learning the information, but they're also learning about kind of historical methods, which I don't, there's a historian on the panel, so I know that historical methods are much, much more rigorous than looking at three documents. I had a good friend who used to say, a historian needs 600 documents to write a sentence and a literary scholar can write 600 sentences for one document, so it's a difference in approaches. And I love how you frame that too. I think in watching DC and DC Public Schools, part of our big approach here has been, and our teachers have been trying to integrate that content with the skills, so that our students are certainly learning the history but also learning the tools of how historians go about, how do they think about things? How do they select sources and make sense of those too? So yeah, I love that suggestion, thank you for that. Well, and since you mentioned the National Archives, I have to just say, so Doc's Teach is, if you go to nar.gov, there's a section called Doc's Teach with original primary source documents. So primary source documents can be a little dry for young people, but you can make them come alive, but also the more you can bring students to the National Archives in the Rubenstein Gallery, there's a big interactive table and kids can pick a document and bring them together and compare them. And there's a section on civil rights and on women's rights and on immigration. So that's a very interactive kind of setting for them. And then of course, the exhibit that is up now is very interactive in their ways for students to vote and to get them involved in ways that they can feel that they're a part of the conversation. So I think the question of rights and how we understand rights and how we understand how those develop, it's interesting to me the way that we might assume that voting and citizenship go together, but they don't. And so I think really sort of thinking through what our assumptions are about citizenship and understanding how those assumptions develop, how the notion of the relationship between rights and citizenship and voting and citizenship has changed over time. And also, I think that we're often prone to think that somehow these are often settled questions. And so I think really sort of thinking through what are the questions that we have contemporary about what is a right, what are voting rights? Has someone deprived you of your right to vote if you have to take off work and stand 12 hours in line to vote? They didn't formally take your vote away. So have you been deprived of your rights or not? So I think thinking about the ways in which these subjects are still contemporary subjects that are being taken up in Congress and let's understand the history of those is a kind of really way to make thinking about the history but also thinking about the history have some kind of meaning in the lives or have young people see how it might have meaning in their lives. Absolutely, and I love how you're making, I think it's so important to make connections with our students so they can see the relevancy of what they're learning and the relevancy of things that have happened in the past and how as you said they still continue into the present day. Again, one of the things that we stress has been in socialized field broadly has stressed the role of inquiry in history instruction and how as teachers we can spark and sustain inquiry with our students and I'm not gonna get a better transition than that so I think this is probably a good moment for hopefully we have sparked and sustained some inquiry in your minds and that you might have some questions that you would like to ask our panelists. So we have some microphones on either side of the auditorium and if you have questions that you would like to ask, we invite you to come up to a microphone. As you're doing that, I would just say we would love to hear a question, not necessarily a long piece of commentary but we'd love if you have a question for either one of our panelists or for the panel to address as a whole and feel free to articulate it that way. So I'll say if you would like to, if folks would like to move. Oh, I see. I'm not sure if we have any folks who could help bring a microphone over. I know as we are casting on YouTube and Facebook and the internet millions, I'm not sure if we need to be on the microphones for that but perhaps we could pass one over. Say what, while we work on that, we'd like to start over here and then we can come back over there. Good afternoon, my name is Samantha Evervoid. I'm a DC public school teacher. I'm at a local high school here in the district and my question is in teaching this, I try to also discuss and I would ask you ladies to kind of speak on the fact that the amendment wasn't when everyone got their right to vote but that there were a lot of states out west who were voting way before this amendment was even passed and trying to get my students to understand that it was more of a state issue for some people and more of a national issue for some people and so my question is what are some good ways or suggestions on how to frame that idea that a lot of times they think of it as this big federal right but it's really local and it really changed differently for different people than different states and some people already, this amendment didn't give them the privilege of voting because they already sort of had that. Thank you for your question. So I'll pitch it to the panel, what do you think? So I think, so one of the issues in the women's suffrage movement itself was whether the struggle should be at the state level or at the federal level and so that's an important issue in the movement itself and I think that, so I'll say something about that but one of the things I think it's important to understand is that for African-Americans, they almost always thought it should be a federal issue because they understood what it would mean for it to be a state issue and from emancipation, African-Americans have thought of themselves as federal citizens and that the federal government had some responsibility to them so that could have the federal constitution but initially the whole idea was that the fight for women's suffrage would be done state by state because you were a citizen of the state and so yes, a number of the Western states in Illinois in the 1890s and other places, people already had the right to vote and that was a struggle within the women's suffrage movement to go for a federal, to start pushing for a federal amendment and it's a controversy between Southern white women and other women because the Southern white women wanna hold on to state's rights at the same time that they wanna fight for a woman's suffrage so it is initially like piecemeal, one by one some states get the right to vote. It's also the case that even in individual state what you get the right to vote for is like maybe it's that women can vote for the school board or the city council or it's not necessarily that even as they're getting the right to vote it's an overall sort of right to vote so the very piecemeal kind of thing I don't know if that's the guy giving you what you, but I think sort of explaining actually just that whole conversation about state and federal and what people imagine they wanna hold on to by keeping it at the state level and what a particularly African-Americans imagine is the importance of a federal amendment and eventually the women's suffrage movement as a whole pushes for a federal amendment. Great. But part of my question she asked is I was gonna bring up the fact that many of the western states I believe were the states, the first states I believe to grant women the right to vote. But my other statement is you keep mentioning the National Association of Colored Women which was founded I think around 1895 and you keep mentioning the women there but I wonder if nationally in terms of all of the dialogue we have brought the National Association of Colored Women to the table because they were really the women who were involved very, very early and I know we have on here Delta Sigma Theta sorority and the National Council of Negro Women which many of us represent but those women also influenced our organizations but my question is because I don't think NACW gets the recognition, I'm not a member but they don't get the recognition and I'm wondering since we're doing this nationally if we are really going back to the National Association of Colored Women founded by Josephine Roffin and Mary Church Terrell and all of them that is a statement for your planning. Well I think they can't get enough recognition. I said you're right to want us to lift them up but I think we all credit them with really, I mean they were founded before the NAACP and they really should have more recognition but I think all of us have tried to mention that in the important role that they played and it wasn't not, they had their conventions every two years, women like Booker T. Washington's wife Margaret Murray Washington and Mary Burnett Talbert helped me, some of the other women who were the presidents of the organization but they led many different things. The Frederick Douglass home in Anacostia was preserved because the National Association of Colored Women took on the role of raising the money for that to happen. They owned a house that was on our street that was later the, what was the name of the club? The club in the 70s, Desiree or whatever the name of the club, anyway. The Foxtrap, the Foxtrap that was there. But the National Association of Colored Women they were organized all over the United States. They had state and local clubs and those women were creating kindergartens and retirement homes for formerly enslaved people and making sure that children were eating. I mean, they were doing all of that social welfare work when there weren't other safety nets for people but they were also being involved in suffrage but they were very much an important organization. Again, before the NAACP. So someone asked me, the Crisis Magazine is the official magazine of the NAACP? Just because you had it and someone asked me, well, what's the crisis? Oh, right, right. Yeah, I think we offer, we're also steeped in this. So thank you for making us explain some of these things. So when I teach that, when I'm teaching, I teach the National Association of Colored Women as the largest civil rights organization in the late 19th and the first 25 years of the 20th century. And so thinking and as the organization that really gets the anti-lynching off the ground because at the founding of the NAACP, the NAACP was not in favor of fighting for federal anti-lynching legislation. It's the NAACP that actually has to push them to there. All right, so I think we have a question in the back over here and then we'll come back to the middle. I'm a local teacher for DCPS and I'm just looking for, we've talked about so many things and as teachers, we have to hit so many standards and do so many things in a day. If there was one really big takeaway that you wanted us to have our resonate with our kids, I use that word every day, resonates with you what we're reading, to resonate with our kids, what would that be? All right, sum it all up for us. So I'll just, mine is they need to vote. They need to, and they need to, so maybe they're not only have to vote yet, they need to pay attention to the issues, they need to prepare themselves to vote and they need to understand that voting is not a given that you cannot take it for granted but you prepare them in civics and history, whatever, that they need to be fully engaged citizens who vote. Yeah, again, again, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna go with you. You don't have a mic, you can drop, I don't think, oh no, I'm done. Yeah, I would absolutely second and third that and also I think thinking about what voting means, that it's not just casting a vote for the president, like what does it mean? Why was there this struggle? Why were people willing to put themselves on the line for the right to vote? And so what kinds of rights are they trying to exercise? What kind of representation? What kind of voice are they trying to have when you get to elect your public officials or have a jury of your peers or be able to influence the laws that get made, that govern their lives? So that may be a little bit kind of more complicated than just you need to vote, but you need to vote. I mean, but thinking, I think what the history does, I think is allow us to really look at what it meant in its larger complexity, like what did it mean? Why was it so important and why was it tied up in so many other issues? Why did they see the vote as a way to address mob violence? Why did they see the vote as a way to protect black women from sexual assault? I think the case you gave really illustrates that when you're thinking about who gets to make the laws that govern the way you live your life. So I guess that maybe to help them approach that history in a way that really resonates with the importance of what these folks were trying to do and how it still resonates in the ways that you both have articulated so eloquently, it still resonates today. You know, maybe the children's crusade in Birmingham is one way to help children, young people understand that they can make a difference and that there's so many movements where young people have been the catalyst and maybe they can see themselves in that. Else is there anything else you would add in terms? No, they covered it, all right. I'll put you right in the middle. Well, first of all, congratulate you all and the archives for such an excellent presentation. And really, just stellar, stellar. And that brings me to this question of universal suffrage, which really is what black women stood for then and now. And you see the case of like a Stacey Abrams who's trying to really beat the drum around voter suppression, who happened to get, I think, 75% of white women voted for her opponent, which is just amazing. So what can we, you all and all of us in this room do to try to spark the conversation so that history does not repeat itself and the same offenses of white women and white supremacy, you know, step on universal suffrage for the 21st century, each of you. All right. So what can we do in our different, and lots of different roles of folks in the audience here as well as on the panel, what things can we do to address that? I hope the presidential candidates who are speaking tonight are addressing that issue. They probably have better ideas than I do on that. What are they on Facebook and YouTube? I think actually thinking about what Stacey Abrams is doing is like one of the most important things that we could do because it is the case that it often seems that every four years people realize that people are being disfranchised. But to do something about that, you actually have to be thinking about that in those intervening four years, not just at that moment. And so I think that she has decided to make us try to think about that like on a regular daily basis and sort of work through that and see what are the ways in which that's happening. I think at the moment it's really difficult to see how that's going to get addressed. But I think actually looking at the organization she's trying to put together the ideas and in our own communities and cities and states, et cetera, looking at the ways in which disfranchisement is happening, not waiting until an election is coming up to recognize that disfranchisement is happening and that we cannot at this moment do something about it. And that seems to me an important issue and also an important issue for young people to think about the ways in which they might be involved in that. Well, I think I would just add that Brittany Cooper has a book where she refers to the Mary Church Terrell and the Julie Cooper, this cohort of women as the kind of intellectual activists and that they really were trying to keep those kinds of questions and push those kinds of intellectual framework into the general conversation. And so I think I'm a literary studies person so there are people who are doing on the ground work in terms of political organizing, which is so critical and can say much more about this than I ever could. But I think that just in the kind of realm of ideas, having events like this, changing the conversation, the work we do in the classroom, to keep making people aware of why universal suffrage is so important, how the politics that can play out across that, how people were willing to kind of sacrifice their own advantages or cut their nose off and fight their face to have black women not vote, but to keep that conversation present, to look at the history, to talk about the women. And I think that's one way that it also just helps to shift the conversation as well as, and it kind of in relation to all of the important, actual organizing and political work that is happening and needs to happen. Other questions from the audience? If you would step up to the mic. Mr. Diaz. Hi, my name is Ever Diaz. I teach history here in DC. My question is sort of, so when we think about the students that we teach and some teachers in the room, I agree with this, not only, so knowing that they have the right to vote and knowing that there is this enfranchisement, that's one thing, but then there's also the psychological trauma of being a black boy, of being a black girl, a Latina, girl, a Latina boy. And in DC, we talk a lot about social-emotional learning as well. And in your experience as academics, what do you think it takes to sort of have that mental shift of to be a black boy, black girl, a Latina, a girl, a Latina boy. That still means that I also have these rights and I can also participate in these dialogues and be civically engaged. I think that it's a psychological thing as well. So the disenfranchisement is one thing, but there's also psychological disenfranchisement as well. So how do we address the challenges that our students may face in DC and beyond? I mean, I think one of the things you're saying is that sometimes people are just so traumatized in their daily living that this is too abstract. And you don't want a tragedy like a parkland or something like that to be the thing that has to motivate somebody. I mean, I was just reading something, Fannie Lou Hamer, and the things that she went through that transformed her so that she was, as she said, sick and tired of being sick and tired, and she had to speak up for herself. And so you don't want something really horrible to happen, but there I think does have to be some way to make this relevant to them that if you're not speaking up, or if you're not exercising that muscle of your own activism that your life is gonna be controlled by other people. And I think young people don't like somebody else controlling their lives. They don't want their parents controlling their lives. But to help them see the bigger picture that if you vote, if you speak up, if you, one person truly can make a difference to be able to instill that. And they show them examples. There are people all around them in the community who have made, who have opened up their house to somebody to come study. There's somebody who is in their church. There are people in the community who they can look to. It doesn't have to be the president of the United States. It doesn't have to be a famous person that they're looking to as a role model, but there's somebody around them who is making a difference and help them be able to identify with that. Also sometimes thinking about what are the issues in their life now that also are public policy issues now? So I don't know if, I have not been paying attention to whether DC is still talking about the voting age at 16, but that would be one possibility, okay? But also the is has been for the last year or so in DC, a conversation in the city council about street harassment laws and how to think about street harassment, whether to make laws about street harassment and so what should those be and how to, that's something that I think almost all young people are experiencing in some kind of way and probably have some ideas about whether they agree or don't agree with the kind of proposals that are out there. So I think ways to think about how what's actually happening in public policy is really part of their everyday life that they might be able to have a conversation about and actually also have some input into. These are important issues. They're important issues in their lives, but that also potentially gives them a voice in those positions. I think we have time for probably one more question or maybe two if they're fast. So we'll go over here. Let me first thank all of you for such a wonderful outstanding program. You've all done a magnificent job and I want to have enjoyed it immensely. I think it's, there is an irony, however, that we are having this discussion in one of the great African American cities in the United States in one of the great federal institutions, namely the archives in the United States. And yet we are a place that does not have the franchise. And so I think when we talk about how we should be discussing with our children in our city and in other cities that have the franchise, that the nation's capital and a great city of African American citizens who have long felt the federal government had their backs, not in this case. True. There's a here right next week, everyone wants to go. But I wonder if there are lessons from the suffrage movement about, as in franchisement spread to different states as we talked about a little bit, are there lessons learned from how folks were dealing with that if across state lines, perhaps their neighbors were able to vote but they weren't, hypothetically. Well, that's it there. I think we have one last question. Go ahead. What women inspire you? What women inspire you? So what women inspire you? Well, let me throw it back at you. What women inspire you? Your mom? Yeah. Yay, Lucinda. That's a great question. That's a great question. I mean, any, go ahead, Elsa. And for a lot of reasons, Serena Williams, I mean, there are other people, but that's just on my mind at the moment. And for a lot of reasons, she's obviously a great athlete, but I think actually watching the way she's really, it would be really easy and expected in this moment to decide that another victory is the most important thing. And so to take Billie Jean King's advice and stop talking about race and racism and stop doing activism and stop talking about maternal health and stop organizing around that, it would be really easy to do that. If you were here, in order to try to get that victory, so I admire how much she clearly really wants that victory and she still really is committed to these issues of maternal health and of racism and of speaking up and of owning anger and all kinds of things, I admire that. That's great. Shirley, are you leaving? Well, I guess I've been thinking a lot lately about Toni Morrison, who recently passed. And I think she inspired me on so many levels in terms of just the kind of lyrical honesty that she brought to always trying to give the deepest, most honest portrait of what was happening around race and gender and so many other issues in America. And I really respected too the way she, she really thought deeply, and that's such an understatement, but she wasn't kind of putting out a lot of commentaries on things all the time, but when she did, you looked and you listened because you wanted to know what Toni Morrison had to say. And so I've just been thinking a lot about Toni Morrison these days. You mentioned Stacey Abrams. I would say she's somebody who I, when I first heard her name and I saw on Facebook that she was running, I thought, well, that's never gonna happen. And how much I just admired that her tenacity, her ability to build coalitions. So that's a face that I'm really, really wanna watch. I'm also in the call Hannah Jones, who is the New York Times reporter who put together the 1619 project. So I'm looking, that's a voice that I, she's really going to make a difference. And then because we really, we aren't in a room with many teachers, the work, and I'm not just doing this to pander, but I'm just the work that you do every day and shaping young minds and underappreciated often. So I truly admire what you are doing. Well, I think that's a perfect note for us to end on. I think we are just that time, but once again, we'd love to thank you all for coming out this evening and spending some time having a conversation with us. So give yourselves a round of applause again. Thank you. Thanks very much to the National Archives for hosting us here. And most importantly, thank you to our wonderful panelists for sharing all of their knowledge and wisdom with us. And we hope you have a wonderful night. Thank you.