 We're here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kili Iaqena, president of the Grassroot Institute. We live in such a beautiful land. Hawaii, beautiful skies, scenery everywhere, lovely people. Why would anyone want to leave Hawaii? We're going to find out about that a little bit today. I've got a delightful and very interesting guest who represents, or is at the cutting edge of a generation of young people who are reshaping the way we think about education and career and designing one's life. You'll meet her in just a moment, but I want to say welcome to the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Every week we broadcast up to 30 to 35 hours of original content from Honolulu, and it goes across the world, and so does my guest today. My guest is Ken Lee Sculland. Ken Lee Sculland, whom some of you may know as the daughter of Ken and Lee Sculland, educators living here in the state of Hawaii, but raising their daughter across the world. Now she has, I don't say this in any condescending way, she's grown up and is making her future path, and I'm delighted that she's my guest today, and she'll share some of her insights on how education is changing for the next generation, the millennials. Ken Lee, welcome to the program. Thank you very much for having me. So glad to have you here today. In fact, you're visiting just for a short period. I want to tell our viewers that you live in Santiago, Chile. So why is it that you make that your domicile? Yeah, I initially moved down to Chile to work for a company called Sovereign Men, which helps people internationalize themselves abroad, and the founder chose Chile specifically because it's one of the easiest places to get residency. Well, that phrase Sovereign Men kind of reveals a little bit of your own philosophy, I think, about where sovereignty really resides. Yeah, my belief was very in line with this company's message that helped people plant multiple flags around the world and internationalize themselves and their assets for greater safety and prosperity. Just briefly, what does that term internationalize mean? It doesn't mean visiting Paris and sitting at a cafe and then coming home. It means something quite specific to you. Yeah, internationalization is... Well, one way of putting it is to plant multiple flags around the world. You can be a resident in one place, you keep your assets in another place, you have property in another, business is in another, and this helps you to protect yourself from whatever may happen in one specific country, whether it be a financial crisis, to a political unrest or anything. And it can also help you take advantage of greater opportunities that there may be across borders, whether it be by providing your special knowledge or technology from your home country or being able to take advantage of the differences between them. With globalization taking place all across the globe today, do you think our educational system here in this country adequately prepares people? Oh, for going abroad? No. Well, not just going abroad, but living in this world that is so globalized. I think it really depends perhaps on what you study, but for the most part I'd say no. I think from this regular curriculum there's not much that prepares you. Honestly, the only thing that does prepare you is actually going abroad, getting the experience of being in a different place, dealing with different cultures and people. Now, you've had a lot of time to think about the role of government in education, and I have to tell you that in my generation and for generations proceeding with my children, most Americans have thought of the state, the government as the entity to play the largest role in education. We have public schools, we have public funding for college, we have college loans, work study and so forth. So government pervades everything about education in our country, but you have some different ideas. Yeah, it hasn't always been that way. Initially, when the founding of the United States, parents took a lot more control and initiative in their children's education. Most children were homeschooled or they were taught through apprenticeships where they learned from a specific master to learn a specific skill. But a lot changed in the 1850s with the rise of migration, and all of a sudden people started to think, maybe it would be better if we had standardized education so that we can kind of protect American democracy from these different viewpoints, these different religions specifically and different cultures. Well, that sounds more like a tool for the state as opposed to actually providing education. And what you pointed out is that the founders of our country would have been aghast at the idea that you'd hand your children over to the state to be educated. Yeah, very much so. The whole purpose was actually to limit the variety in ways of thought and to create a standardized government-controlled system which goes against what most people think of when they think of America's founding principles. Now, you're an economist by training. You have an undergraduate degree and a master's degree from the London School of Economics. So you've taken an economic point of view in looking at education. Tell us a bit about that. Yeah, I can't help it. Growing up in a family of economists, that's how I've been taught to view life. And so when I chose economics initially, I didn't choose it because of a career plan or anything. I'll be honest there. It was just because I thought that's how we viewed life. You talked about it at the dinner table. Yes, all the time. Gatherings in your home and so forth. Salons that your parents put on. And when you use an economic analysis to look at the whole system of education, what are some of the things you see about the problem of government-driven education? Yeah, the biggest problem that we see today in education is the fact that there's a huge, a tremendous bubble with university degrees. And I traced this back to the significant amount of federal financing for university. So when you say bubble, you're talking about a huge supply of these degrees that is out there. And I actually mean the economic side of it, the debt that comes with it. Okay, the financial bubble. Financial bubble, just the same as the subprime. Mortgage prices. This came from a tremendous amount of money, easy credit given to people to buy their first home because it was thought as a nice thing that everyone should own a home. And so we came to this problem that a lot of people who didn't necessarily have the income to support these payments were purchasing homes, and we saw how that turned out. So it's kind of like the subprime loan crisis, but in the world of education, we have all of these people carrying huge amounts of debt. We hear about graduate degrees that carry with them if they're in medicine, for example, a massive amount of debt, law, and other areas, but just to get an undergraduate degree. The average is $35,000 in debt per student, but it can be far higher than that for many students who given that many schools tuition for four years can be upwards of $200,000. And this is debt that they all have to pay off as soon as they graduate. What has made it so enticing for people to walk into this kind of debt? So it's a mixture of societal pressures, this idea that you have to go to college to get a good job. When I was graduating from high school, I don't think anyone around me questioned whether or not we should go to college. It was the competition on which one to go and actually very few even questioned what to study. It was all about just going to college, getting in. And once you're in taking whatever financing it was necessary in order to make it work. A lot of parents... I mean, it was sort of a necessary, struggle necessary sacrifice because it's supposed to be an investment in our futures. And so no matter the cost, it's supposed to pay off many times over in terms of the jobs that will be available to you afterwards. Would you say there's also been kind of a blind faith that if you get the degree... You'll get a job. ...you'll get a job, you'll get a career. Yeah, but more... Like in 12th century Gaelic literature. Exactly, but we're seeing a lot of issues with that. Number one, now the millennial generation is known as the most educated generation yet because of such easy financing and such pressures more students than ever are getting university degrees which means a tremendous amount of competition, increased competition for the same amount of jobs. Perhaps slightly more, but the increase in jobs has nowhere near matched the increase in number of college graduates. So the economy is not going forward as fast as the supply of degree-carrying millennials is and that's creating a tremendous pressure. So what have you seen as an alternative to this? Oh, before that, let me ask you this question. I was interested in your analysis as we were talking about the quality of education affiliated with government, either government-sponsored schools or government-funded education in private schools and so forth. You have some research that compares government sector schooling with private sector schooling. Yes, well my main research previously when I lived in Hawaii was focused on the school system prior to university and I found huge discrepancies in Hawaii. You would see that in Hawaii especially we have one of the worst public school systems in the country usually ranked between 46th and 50th. Yeah, but when you say that you also have to say we love teachers. Yes, but then the problem is that and also when you look at how much the state spends per student oftentimes it's higher than private schools so it's not that it's actually a cheaper option but the quality just doesn't match up to private schools even though many times they're paying more the quality is often lower and in my opinion this comes from the fact that money equals power and most people see this, everyone knows that phrase but they see that as a reason why we want to not focus on business and whatnot but I see it in a different way. Oh because power is bad. Yeah, that's what the mainstream thought on it is but in my opinion it's important to realize that money is power and as a student that means that if you pay for your education you have power to decide on the curriculum and the teachers and things like that you have a say in it. If you spend it at one school that is you have the power to reward good schools and sort of punish bad schools on the other hand with the public school system when your money goes first to the government and then to the schools it's actually the government that has power over the curriculum and the teachers and the whole system and so by choosing this public school system where we pay the government taxes and they fund the schools we're actually giving up that power to choose and encourage improvement in the school system. Now you talk about power in a way that in my generation we didn't think of education we thought of education as something that was given to us provided to us something we had to go through and we were recipients or consumers in the process but this idea of conceiving of yourself as a power wielder a power broker kind of flips the analysis a little bit. Yeah, when I think of it I think of as the power of the consumer the person who is consuming the education should have power over what is taught and what is and who teaches and I see that more and more online as people are able to choose online courses they don't just sign up to... Choose, there's that word. That's the key element there. Because I think in many ways when you talk about power we disempower ourselves by giving away the power to choose to choose the schools that our children go through and so forth. Well, when we come back from a quick break could you suggest some alternatives and in fact tell us your alternative and the alternatives that many millennials are choosing today to being disempowered and instead gaining power in their education. My guest is Ken Lee Scullant and consultant from Santiago Chile who in her heart of course is a resident of the islands here and we'll be right back after the short message. I'm Kili Ikeena on Think Tech Hawaii's Ehana Kako we'll be back after this short break. Hi, I'm Donna Blanchard I'm the host of Center Stage here on Think Tech. On Center Stage I talk with really amazing artistic guests about what they do, how they do it and the most important point why they do it. I think I hope the show is inspirational for everyone I know it's always inspirational for me. I'm also the managing director of Kumakuhua Theatre which is right next door and I happen to have with me now Will Cahele who is an artist. We just finished a conversation I hope you can catch on Center Stage and we work together at Kumakuhua Theatre why should people come over there? Because it's a great place to see plays written by local playwrights. Why should people watch this show? Because it's cool and it's great things to know every week and because you are a very cool hostess. That's perfect, thank you. Give me my money. Back again to Ehana Kako here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network and I want to say thanks to the wonderful staff and crew who make Think Tech Hawaii work especially Jay Fidel broadcasting from Honolulu, Hawaii and you can find a wonderful library of programs on the economy, the government, culture, the arts, travel almost anything under the sun at ThinkTechHawaii.com I'd also like to thank the Grassroot Institute for cosponsoring this program at the Grassroot Institute we're committed to building a better economy government and society and we like to say Ehana Kako let's work together because think of the terrible alternative if we don't work together nothing will get done I know somebody who's working with a lot of people now not only to advance their own career but to advance their careers Ken Lee Scullant who has found an alternative pathway to getting an education that really prepares one to have a successful career Ken Lee we were talking about the fact that you've discovered that where government is involved in education whether it's in public universities or just by providing subsidies through loans and so forth the quality of education is less than in the private sector where government really isn't involved and that's a little deceptive too though isn't it because many private universities depend upon students who bring with them huge amounts of federal funding in order for them to survive and even do better than survive in order for them to charge premium costs Yeah, power and control over curriculum and things doesn't just come directly from a government's laid out curriculum but it can also come through money and just if a school decides to go down a different path they may lose their accreditation and lose their ability to receive federal funding which can be devastating which keeps even private schools under check under the sort of the guidelines set by government education boards I hear a refrain coming from you frequently power and control and not talking about power and control out there and not talking about the government having too much power and control but talking about yourself I mean you seem to be taking into your hands your life in a way that many are a little bit reluctant to do changing your nation, changing your residency getting out of the system as much as possible how do students who want to have good careers get out of the system now what are some of the things that they can do? Yeah, I think it's very important for everyone to take control of their own lives actually at the sovereign man offices we had a great poster on the wall of Bruce Lee with the quote that said forget circumstances, I create opportunities and I love that phrase, I love the concept and I think all students today have this opportunity I think it's crucial not to just fall into the same trap as everyone else just because everyone else is taking on debt and doing this it doesn't make sense to do the same so I see a lot of alternatives the first I'd recommend to students in high school that are considering university would be to take a gap year that's something quite common in England where people decide to work or travel or do something else before applying to university and I think that is very crucial to help people to actually know what they want to do with their lives before they sign up to invest so much in a certain degree There used to be a stigma to a gap year it looked like an omission on a resume as if somebody had just taken off and partied and fooled around and now is that stigma changing? Yeah, very much so I mean it's all about what you can prove from it I think yes a lot of people do just sit on the beach in Thailand or something like that but if I advise people to take things seriously school is not the only way to demonstrate your abilities and your qualifications but also everything you do so in today's world it's better than ever and more important than ever to document what you do if you go and work on a specific project to document your experience there maybe with a blog or maybe with writing an article afterwards and getting that published there's a lot of things you can do to still to be able to show something for what you've done with that time and I see just going into that with omission to know that I'm specifically going to try out different careers or I'm going to try out this kind of lifestyle or see what I'm actually going to do with the rest of my life Well for you it seems as though marketing yourself and encouraging other millennials to market themselves is actually part of the strategy of getting an education especially now with all of the digital tools I think yeah marketing yourself is crucial a lot of focus for students is to build your CV and now I see the CV is not just a piece of paper that you supply but it's also your online presence actually the things you write, your articles, or posts all demonstrate what you've learned, your expertise and this is crucial for anything you do down the line right now is the generation of authority building and the way to get a job, the way to start a business the way to sell something is through building your authority on certain topics and so that's why I think it's very key to build up material documentation on your activities and your learning on certain subjects And that may not be as hard as it sounds could you just take things that are fun to do things that you have an interest in doing volunteer work and so forth and translate them into a marketable selling piece that shows what your worth is Oh for sure, I mean it's all about showing what your priorities are what your interests, your network if you're volunteering and helping their community building but actually to get back to your previous question I just want to make sure it doesn't get missed different alternatives to school so one is a gap year another one I'd suggest is to go abroad for your education I chose to go to England because in general education an undergraduate degree in England is only three years rather than four so that's already one year less tuition and room and board and I even specifically chose a school where I could graduate in two years with a full degree so it would be even cheaper and a master's is one year so I was able to get an undergraduate degree and a master's in the time that my high school classmates were still struggling through their undergrad and while they were still trying to figure out what they were majoring in Yeah exactly even beyond that there's some school some countries that have very cheap education there's some another aspect is the fact that you could also learn a different language if you went to China for example to do a degree no one doubts that Chinese schools are focused on education so you don't have to worry that it'll be very low quality it will be a very low quality degree and after the end of four years you might also speak a language another language which would look great on your CV a great way to differentiate yourself and to know that you've really used those four years well so gap year going abroad and also looking for other ways to prove yourself like I said with building up your online presence in this you can also pursue a number of online courses there are through Coursera you can take courses from the top universities in the world and pay simply for the certificate you can take courses from MIT who I guess your guest was from MIT last week all these things and pay just a couple hundred dollars maybe for the certificate versus a forty six thousand dollar a year tuition bill so there are many different ways to make alternative educated and maybe more financially sound decisions when you're investing in your future career now you already shared with me a bit about how important it is to seek out mentorship in different areas and not in the traditional sense that you find this great mentor and sit at his or her feet a guru so to speak rather to look at areas where you need skills and talents and experience whatever those areas are whether it's writing, photography, marketing and so forth and actually instead of paying tuition for a university paying individuals to give you that education and give you that mentorship yeah this goes back to the traditional form of education and like apprenticeship you would find someone with a specific skill or career that you wanted and you would just work with them today's world there are different ways to do this when I was working at my previous job I pursued the same concept I really valued the way that Simon Black the founder of Sovereign Man was living his life and so as he always said you should find someone who you like what they're doing and you try to make yourself invaluable to them you offer them value you try to don't just say oh will you be my mentor, will you take care of me will you give me education because someone who's busy and successful doesn't have time for that but if you can provide them with value they can accept you into their lives and you can learn firsthand what they do each day and how they run their businesses and things like that well Kenley this has been a fascinating conversation and our time is up too quickly but I think you've got some valuable ideas that will help a great many people and I wish you the best on your career path thank you very much Rammy thank you my guest today Kenley Skulland a marketing consultant who is changing the rules by which games are played she's actually created her career as part of her own educational her educational pathway and she's showing others that there are new and different ways millennials are choosing to tackle career direction and preparation I'm Keeley Ikeena with the grassroots institute on think tecawaii se hanakako until next week aloha