 Welcome to another episode of In the Studio. I am here today with author Kwanu Kwanay, Karmu. Is that correct? Q, as he has graciously allowed me to shorten his name, is the author of Witness, A Civil War Through the Eyes of a Child. And this is his personal story of his experiences as an eight-year-old during the Liberian Civil War. And I have read the book. It is an amazing tale of survival and perseverance. It's a very emotionally involving book. So you could, definitely it's gripping enough to read through in one sitting, but I myself took breaks to absorb everything that was going on in the story. It's really an incredible, incredible story. And he's here today with us to talk about his experiences about the book. And he's also developed an educational program around the book that we'll discuss. So welcome, Kwanu. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate your welcoming me to the studio and for giving me the chance to further expand on my story. Okay, so I guess let's start with, for the people who don't know, a little background on Liberia. Liberia is a country in Africa. Yes. And it was founded. It was founded during the American Colonization Movement back in early 1820, around the 1820s. So not long after the United States got going. That's right. They started Liberia. They started Liberia. And the motivation for Liberia was pretty much when the slaves were freed, in America, there was a fright in the minds of slave owners that the slaves might revolt against them because of the news that came out of Haiti when the Haiti slaves revolted against their masters and the news came down to the South. So the pressure to give these slaves an opportunity to go back to Africa started to build up. Jean Monroe was president at the time. So during that time, there was a campaign ran for free black slaves who wanted to go back to Africa. They were gonna use the American, they created the American Colonization Movement. Francis Scott King was also part of, in our room, when they were deciding. You know, of course he wrote the Star-Spangled Banner. And President Monroe, as you mentioned. President Monroe. And so this movement to go back to Africa started to build and a lot of free slaves caught on to it. And then the journey to Africa started when it got on that ship and bought it to go to West Africa. The land in Sierra Leone, but the mosquitoes were so much, kill a lot of the folks that were on the ship that it sailed down a little further and that's where they found Liberia. When it got on that ship, they came onto the land and established Liberia. And here's where we were born. In 1822, when they started, and then in 1847, they got independent from the United States. And America kind of became like big brother for Liberia. Big brother to the country. And so just so people understand although slavery was outlawed in the United States only in 1865, the international slave trade was outlawed much earlier. And this is the freed slaves that a lot of the slaves were either rescued from ships, from slave ships. And then there were also freed black men who had won their freedom other ways or had been granted their freedom. And they were all part of the move of the people moving over there. Craftsmen, tradesmen, farmers, people. And they're actually, I was surprised in reading up on the history, there's extensive records and correspondence of this time period. This is not an unknown era. There's many letters, documentations about the whole process, who was on the ships and people writing back about their experiences when they arrived. Yes, I mean it's fascinating the history that's out there that just have not been fully published. Or it's not, a lot of people are not aware of this hidden history of black history, the movement back to Africa. Liberia became almost like the united front for black American who went back. Back then there was no genealogy studies. They were just going to a land that was created for them and they formed this land. And in a way Liberia became the beacon of hope for African Americans to find their way back to Africa. The ironic thing about our story is that the first movement to go to Africa was almost like a forced movement by whites who were leading the cause. But then halfway through, a lot of blacks decided that they didn't want to go to Africa based on that movement anymore. They wanted to actually do it on their own. So they came together in Charleston and formed another group that put money together to buy their own ship to actually go to Africa under this patriotism of going to Africa. So by choice rather than being sent there. Exactly. And then by that time the movement had been so widespread that there was another campaign by whites who decided to slow the movement down. Because now they saw that a lot of blacks who were going to Africa, going to Liberia was writing back to their family members and saying, guys, this is indeed the promised land. For us, they felt like the Jews were promised the promised land from God. To them, they felt like Liberia was their promised land for them. And that movement just went widespread. And so the ship that was purchased by free blacks during that time to go back was called a Barq Azar out of Charleston, South Carolina. And when they got to Liberia, they started writing letters to their families. When the ship got back here, the whites stopped it from going back to Africa. So the back to Liberia movement just died after that. So at a certain point, all the migration stops because they're worried that everybody's gonna go over there. It was just this sense of freedom that they felt when it got to Liberia. The folks, the free slaves that went got really wealthy. They were freed mentally, physically. When it got to Liberia, they formed lots of wealth on the land. And they started trading with other countries. They started their own government. Of course, they were really heavily influenced by the government of the United States when it got there. There's a twist to the story is that when it got to Liberia, instead of embracing the indigenous that had fallen in Liberia, they turned them into slaves. So there's a twist to the whole story when it got to Liberia. So that's kind of where a lot of the tensions started to build over the years. Between what became known as the Americas, correct? The Americal Liberians, yes. So they're the ones who have migrated over. They've established themselves. But of course, there were people in Africa who were already in Liberia. Native populations, many, many different populations. And the tensions were between them. There were different things going on. So, but Liberia survives. It has a democratic government on and on for, oh, it's like a hundred years practically, right? Pretty much. Or more. It grew right where the United States, if you think about it, as from its establishment to where it became, it started really to grow democratically with the U.S. and the system is like here. We have the same flag. I said we have one star. So it's really our capital city is Monrovia after Jeans, Monroe. A lot of our islands and the places around Liberia is named after United States, like New Virginia, Maryland. We have those type of places around Liberia as well. So it would be very familiar if someone looked at the map, they'd say, hey, these are all named after American places. So then around in the 20s, Firestone made an agreement with Liberia to open an enormous, the largest in the world, rubber plantation to supply rubber for tires because now the automobile is becoming a huge thing in the United States and around the world. And then of course we hit World War II and rubbers and great demand for all sorts of things. Natural rubber is a resource that is the only good solution for many engineering problems, from gaskets to seals to waterproofing things to tires. And Liberia's climate turns out to be perfect for the growing of rubber. So you have this huge plantation and then things are going along, but then we hit 1980 and what happens? We're in 1980. Underneath this great development that's happened in Liberia, underneath there's this stench of segregation that's still there, right? You have the medical Liberians who have ruined and became very wealthy on the backs of the native Liberians in Liberia because even with Firestone coming to Liberia, there was this sense of reintroduction of slavery in a way because the labor pool was really, really bad. The American Liberians will of course mandate that everybody and their mother and child and their grandparents had to work for Firestone for like a penny a day. So they were working for no cost and there was very bad condition. The plantations were set up just like slavery in the United States. So a lot of it was, although Firestone grew unanimously in Liberia, this oppression mentality was still strong coming from American Liberians who helped to establish the country. So leading up to the 80s, that region and a lot of what was happening there was built intention. The American Liberians were ruling the society. There's a lot of corruption, of course, that was happening. That the indigenous Liberian felt like they had no voice. And of course in 1980, there was a coup d'etat that took place with Samuel Dole who was a master surgeon working at the capital at the time. And there's a lot of conspiracy behind what actually took place, that he organized it by himself or what took place. And then in October, who was empowered, became one of the most innovative president Liberia has ever had up to that point. He was the first president to actually open door to allow the indigenous to come side by side with the American Liberians. Of course in the process of doing that, there's a lot of tension that was rising in his government from policies that he was trying to implement to allow Liberians to become more independent of the rest of the world and become more, to grow their own food effectively, make it a lot cheaper instead of importing rice. He wanted every Liberian to grow rice. We've got a climate just, it's great for it. To be self-sufficient. Yes, but there's a lot of tension that was building on that front as well that he ran into. And unfortunately, it could not be resolved peacefully. And though led a movement to overtake Tupper. And when that took place, that was the beginning of our trauma. Continues for the next 40 years. On and off. You can say that 2020 this year is critical and mark 40 years of struggle since that time from 1980 to 2020, this year that we're in. So when the coup d'etat took place, of course, patriotically from the everyday people, they felt like they had been suppressed for a long time. That somehow, someway, maybe because of this, this indigenous leader who came into power, he would then become their saver. He would become the person who would tie everything together for Liberians and indigenous and local Liberians to feel like they have sense of power to be able to feel a sense of freedom in the country. Unfortunately, that was not the case. When he got into power, everything started to change. He became very corrupt. Of course- This is Doe. This is Doe. He's taken over now and the coup. And then ironically, he's supported by the US. And that's where a lot of gray line is kinda, you gotta kinda read between the lines to figure out what's going on at that time. So he comes into power. Doe has actually flew into Washington, DC, meets with Reagan at a White House. And he goes back to Liberia, essentially become one of the richest presidents in the world. How does he get all this money? Of course, that's still yet to be said in many ways, but Doe goes back and starts to suppress a lot of people, even including his own people, starts to really staunchly divide the country within itself, tribally favoritism to his own type of tribal people over other people. So the country itself is in this melting pot at this moment. And throughout the 80s, we're experiencing tension, but the overshadow of what's happening in Liberia is still peace. It's still a very, very beautiful country. And the people of Liberia don't really, they're not transported to this area where they can realize that this tension is gonna catch up to them. Because they're still denied that because of the umbrella of the US, we will be protected, that even though we're hearing rumors of suppression, that it will all just pass away, everybody better be okay. Because the US wouldn't let anything bad happen. Exactly. Of course. Firestone presents heavy in Liberia as well at this time. So there's a lot of, and life is really good. I mean, in Liberia, regardless of all of what was happening, the sense of Liberia was a beacon of hope for a lot of African countries, for what democracy should be like in Africa. It was Africa's first and oldest republic. That's right. There's a lot of accomplishment that Liberia have had up to this point, regardless of the suppressive government that was there all of this time. There was a lot of great things that was happening. Liberia was part of the formation of the United Nations. Liberia has always been at war history right there because of how, it's almost like it grew up with his older brother up to this point. Right on the cutting edge of everything. Exactly. Exactly. Let's take a, we'll take a break. And when we come back, we'll discuss your experiences during the Civil War. You were eight years old and witnessed all sorts of things. So we'll be back in a moment. Hi, and we're back with Quanu Quanay. So we're talking about his book, Witness, Civil War, seen through the eyes of a child. Now in the earlier part of this episode, we set the stage with Liberian history and we got up to Civil War starts. Yeah. Now you're eight years old and to you, things are peaceful and going fine. That's right. So why don't you tell us about your experience and what kind of run through? At eight years old, growing up in Liberia was one of the best time of my life. You know, because at that time, my parents were really successful. They had built the family wealth. They have worked really hard. They are indigenous Liberian who lived with American Liberians to get education. Your father ran, had a pharmacy, right? Yes. My father and mother established pharmacies through our Liberia and grew that business to a great success in the late eighties. And it was then that my father got the opportunity to finally come to America, apply for a business visa to be able to come here and establish connections with companies to be able to supply his pharmacies in Liberia. That was the highlight of our family. My parents had bought land on top of a hill, built two houses in a place called Sugar Hill. It was the most beautiful community at that time that I could ever imagine. It was free flow. It was where I found my pride and joy growing up in Liberia. You brought electricity to the community and lit it all up? That's right. My father, my parents brought electricity to my community. They were very innovative people and they were all about development. So, you know, they laid the first road going up to the hill in my community. So they did a lot of things to establish life. And literally, we know though that all of what they were doing will come to ruin. My father had got his visa to come to America. He was only supposed to be here for one month. When he got here, the very next week, we had war to all those steps. My father was separated from us for five years. He had no clue that we were even alive during that time because when the war came, we had to quickly leave everything that we had on Sugar Hill, run to Monrovia to try to take refuge in the capital city, hoping that the government of Liberia will protect us when we go to Monrovia. On this journey, when we got to Monrovia, the other anticipation was that our father would come back because the airport, the major airport is in Monrovia, that capital city of Liberia, that he would come back to us and then we would somehow escape to Sierra Leone to a neighboring country to give us a family. We took refuge out of my church, out of church in Monrovia called Church of Christ. It was during this time that we really, the war came to all those steps in Monrovia. Up until this point, you've heard rumors and whispers among the adults that things are happening. You haven't really seen anything yet. No, we haven't seen anything yet. There was a lot of tension that was rising up from adults just talking about the tension of what they felt in the country. Of course, as a child, you can only feel the tension of not being able to play longer. But for us, it was when the adults would get around the radio to talk about just the news of the day, everything that would do a hearing on the news. Kind of like, almost like here right now, in the United States, so much going on in our country, in the U.S. right now with, whether it's China or it's Iran or just the government, people not talking to each other. As a child, you don't really think too much about it. But for us in Liberia, it was more or less just watching, growing up, tuned to the radio every evening to hear about what was happening. And then suddenly, one night, one day... Exactly. You're all like, we gotta leave. We gotta leave because the war came unexpectedly too quickly. It wasn't something that anybody expected to even have in Liberia. People in Liberia were really comfortable. They didn't even want to leave Liberia. Their life was good. And all of a sudden, overnight, everything just went away. And you wind up at this church. We're one of the... Yeah. We're one of the church in Monrovia. When we had to leave was when my auntie who was living in Ganta, where the war actually came from Ganta, came to visit us because they had to leave their home and that's really when it became rare for us. They were really doing well in Ganta when it got to Banga, where I was living. And we hosted them. They brought the news about the traumatizing situation that was happening with how the rebels were invading the country. Right. And they're killing people. Exactly. They were starting to kill people. They were starting to adopt children. They were starting to just separate families, use the kids as children soldiers. And that was a new thing for Liberia. You know, for kids to become soldiers. It was just not something that people fathom. Well, you saw them on a truck, right? That was one I remember. One of the first experiences you described was seeing the haunted look and some of the faces of the children on this truck and they had weapons. Yeah. And Dole was... The president at the time was not really helping. If anything, he was escalating the problem for why people... the rise against him. And unfortunately too, there's a historical notion to this that readers can go and search for themselves. Charles Taylor, who was in prison in Massachusetts, somehow escaped federal prison and found himself in Liberia to start a civil war. In prison in the United States. Yes. It shows up and starts a civil war in Liberia. In Liberia. Or participates. Participates. Really, he was... So anyways, he's in Liberia. He starts to recruit all these people to fight. And of course, the patriotism to join him was also high because Dole was sending soldiers to Nimbac County and they were killing these families, taking their children and carrying them to Monrovia and he was executing them. So all of this was happening. And one of the chapters in the book, my mother and I goes to talk to my father. She's going to telecom to call my dad to a telecommunication place in Bogna City. And I forced myself to follow her. The book really takes you... My character in the book is... I've always been curious. So I'm following my mother and I'm begging her that I want to go with her wherever she goes. And we are going across this road, this main intersection. That's when we see these army trucks coming from Nimbac, the neighboring county, where all... As the army trucks are going, of course, people are stopping on the road to figure out what's happening. In the back of the trucks, I feel a bunch of kids who has been adopted by the president and the army. And the rumor is that their parents were executed and he was transporting them to either torture or execute these kids in Monrovia. Whatever the case was, I was traumatizing. That was my first encounter of seeing the drama of what was happening around us. We were here about it, but it did not become real until those trucks were rolling through my city to take those kids and I could see their eyes in the back of the trucks and I was frightened. Of course, mother was always protective in those moments. So that was my first encounter of seeing it being so real to us. And then you wind up hiding out in a church for a few weeks, right? Yes. So when we got to Monrovia, after we left Banga City, we get to Monrovia, we leave everything because we hear about the tension that the rebels have took over Ganta. And from Ganta to Banga, where my home is, it's only like less than 45 minutes. So drive. And so we're like, okay, we have to leave here. So we'll leave to go to Monrovia anticipating that my father will come back and that he will be coming soon and that we will then escape the country. We take refuge out of church in Monrovia. It was at this church where we pretty much become hostage because we are forced to go through curfews. The government incites a nationwide curfew that nobody can come outside after a certain time during the day and that anybody who they see, they will pretty much kill them. So we are stuck in this church for only a few hours to explore outside during the day. My father, meanwhile, has not come back yet. We are waiting to hear news about him coming back and all planes are not coming. There's no air traffic coming back to Liberia and so everything starts to really, really rise up quickly and so we get the realization that that is not coming back. So my mother is the level five of us stuck in this church and have to fend for us. So it was in that church where we started to experience starvation. We didn't know how, up to that point, I never knew how bad it was to be hungry and one night we got so hungry that my mother got news that there was another church that was distributing rice, that was distributing food and the next morning she got all of us to go and beg for food from that church and bring it back to our church. We got to the Lutheran church which was not too far away from this church, my church. We got to the Lutheran church along the line, people are going to the church, but we got to the gate where we were now going to beg for some food. We haven't eaten for literally four weeks up to this point we haven't had a meal. At least a decent meal at that point. We ran out of food altogether so you know we're asking, my mother's asking the people at the gate if they could please give us some rice to take it back to our church and we are forbidden to get rice and we couldn't understand why and of course we started to find out that the church was only taking in a certain tribe, a tribal group into the church. They were not taking everybody. If you are not of that tribe they won't accept you to come into the church. So we beg and plead of course we're hanging on my mother and we are hungry and as we are begging the minister of the church walks over and to find out what was going on and he pretty much gave my mother, automated him and said look I understand take any other tribe in this church we'll try by you, of course we'll call our tribe and he says to her that he would take us into the church but he can't give us the beg and rice to take back to our church and we started to beg that we could not just come into the church we had our church family was still waiting for us. You had other people you couldn't abandon? We couldn't abandon and he looked at my mother and told her that we were not the chosen ones and of course then he turned us away with no food and we go back to our church hungry. The unfortunate part of the story is not even necessarily that we were hungry is the fact that the next morning we get news that the government has sent the army to that church to the Lutheran church and the massacre over 600 people with machetes that very night had we gone into the church and killed that night That's right so even though we were not the chosen ones to be killed but unfortunately the situation became that dire and that was when my mother decided that even the churches were not safe no more. Well people got killed at the church you were staying at as well right? Yeah, yeah, so because the patrol soldiers were coming there was the danger of rebels you're hiding out every night wondering if they're going to come in so and then your story obviously continues and eventually you did make it out but there were checkpoints that you had to go through. So yeah my mother decided that we couldn't stay at this church no more it was just becoming dangerous in the city and she decided that she was going to take us to war so at that time when she made that decision everybody at the church said she was crazy we're hearing about the rumors outside of this church we feel the tension in the city now how are you going to escape here to go where and her plan was that we were going to walk back to Banga city which was about 130 miles walk to go back to our home that we had left and go back into rebel territory her intuition was just that if we stay at the church the government became that dangerous that we would die in the city and we were just crossing over to rebel and hopefully the rebels will have some pity on us crossing through territory that's controlled by different groups that's right and this journey back was where it really becomes the book is the journey of me experiencing losing my innocent as a child and really watching the most hideous things take place around my environment and it was on this journey as we were leaving this church to go back that we made the first attempt to leave Monrovia and that was not successful and but my mother was determined that we had to leave and the very next night she got us prepping to try to leave Monrovia and when we finally escaped Monrovia and got into rebel territory that's when everything started to go down south well the book is certainly a tribute to the endurance of your mother I mean she it's incredible the things that you went through but that she went through to hold the family together and I encourage everyone you should read this book the journey is amazing what Q has just covered is just sort of the beginning of the first few chapters and there are tales of killing fields your mother almost gets killed at one point you think she was dead at one point that becomes I guess the tipping point of our story is that when we finally got into rebel territory we were captured at one of the checkpoints as we were going through being interrogated of my father, of our tribe and everything else by rebels our first encounter of rebel soldiers was hideous it wasn't something that as a child to ever fathom seeing children dressed in such demonic possessed looking and feeling like they were nightmares child soldiers that are basically capturing that children have been turned in just that short period of time into animals and when we were being interrogated at one of the checkpoints they didn't believe our story and they told us we were good to go and they were good to go just pretty much meant you were good to die so they took us and ordered us to be taken to a killing field to be executed and as we were confused about being good to go and then going to be hauled out to a killing field we started to cry for our life and started to really beg to preserve us and the rebel leader became really ignored and turned to my mother and says to her that hey everybody don't have to die today but you get to choose who dies so my mother had to choose between either our life or her life and she chose to die so that we can live that's when it took us to the killing field to execute her that became the turning point for our story for our life because we're all five of us hanging on my mom and at that moment if mom is taken from us more than likely we'll be left in the mercy of these rebels and their intention was always to either turn the children soldiers so when that took place and my mother was hauled to the killing field to be executed she didn't know that her decision to die was just as bad as us dying as well and while she was in the killing field the order of 14 year old child with machine gun to execute my mother and my mom realizing that a child was going to execute her started to reflect on us, on our life that if she died more than likely somebody had to take care of us so she started to pray right in the middle of this killing field before she got executed they stripped her naked and the child was going to shoot her and as she's standing there looking at this gun she realized the innocence of this child and she boldly started to pray a promise to God and her promise in that moment was somehow some way the bullet does not kill her that will come from the gun she promised to become a mother to a child like the one that was about to execute her she realized that that child had parents she realized that that child was often more than likely they had killed the parents like they were about to kill her and she became a child soldier so she just started to reflect on the child children like those needed parents so her promise was just like that to God and as she's saying the prayer my little sister rips out of our hands and runs to the killing field to find my mother she finds her way to my mom right before she's shot she runs there and grabs my mother and they're both standing in front of this gun by this child who is confused and bringing the gun to the floor whether or not to kill my mother and my sister and as she is in the middle of all of this the rebel leader turns to the child and tells her to shoot both my mom and my sister and you have to read the rest of the book to find out what happened alright wow okay well thank you very much for coming on you're going to stay with us we're going to do another episode and it's going to be about Liberia today and tomorrow and maybe we'll touch on briefly the rest of your story because obviously you survived and you're here to tell us about it again I highly recommend the book and if you go to the website you can find out more information and that web address will be on the screen for you so that wraps it up for this episode of In the Studio and I'll be back with Q for another episode shortly look out for it