 Giles, Ryan, welcome to the 42 Corthers podcast. What an honor to see you on this glorious Thursday morning. It's very overcast here, and I'm imagining evening where you are in Australia right now. Let's turn the evening. Yeah, thank you for having us. Probably nice and warm where you are though, still I'd imagine. Warmish, yeah, no, it's getting warm. Yeah, no, it's not that warm. What's warm for you, Ryan? I think it's about 25 today. Oh, fuck this. Yeah. Perfect. We're here today to talk about Ryan and Giles's amazing new book, How Brands Blow. Very cool title. I love the play on words with that. Have you had a call from Byron yet to compliment you on your choice of title? It's a story though. There was a bit of a story behind that actually. When I first announced it on LinkedIn, which must have been God knows, well, a couple of years ago, some guy popped up and said, are you proud of the fact that you are using borrowed interest from How Brands Grow? I was like, yeah, pretty much. And then Byron actually, well, I contacted Byron and said, I just want to make sure that you're okay with this. And he said, yeah, that's all fine. I think we've got his blessing. Yeah. And this is the three most independently came up with the same title, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. To that. Wow. To that's not this time. Bravo. And yeah, how did the collaboration start? I mean, you're both very, very far apart from each other location-wise. Well, how did this marriage come apart, not come apart? How did this marriage come together? Ah, you can answer that one if you like, Charles. Yeah. How did it come together? I don't know the correct answer. I mean, I think Ryan and I had certainly followed each other on the bin fire that is now X. And I don't know. I don't know. You know, I mean, Chris, you will know this as well, but things happen and spark from Twitter, the Twitter involved, that then develop whether that's like, I don't know, people's relationships or like within marketing Twitter, which I think quite fairly gets a lot of criticism. There's also a lot of love and some good things that have spiralled out of that. And I genuinely think it was a fairly off the cuff comment from Ryan about start thinking about putting a book together. And I remember pouncing on it quite quick and saying, yeah, I'm in. Let's do it. And there's something along those lines. Yeah, no, that was pretty much it. Yeah. I remember getting a message from you and then you said, oh, yeah, I'm in. I'm like, OK, well, let's do it. Let's do it. So, yeah. And 500 years later, there we are. Yeah, what? I mean, how do you ever made a book before Giles? Or is this sort of just like screw it at that stir at the moment? Yeah, it's more, it's more than that. I feel like it should be the former, but it's definitely the latter. All right. And I think the reason why we wanted to is I was going through a phase or still going through a phase perhaps where like amplifying people who I massively admired and who spoke well and spoke, you know, what needed to be said was like a little mission that we were going on as a business as an agency. So obviously with our own with the podcast called to action where we do that. And books to me just seemed like a nice way to explore doing the same thing in a different medium. I've always loved books like a print design is my background. So I'm a bit of a sucker for books. It certainly as we might come on too later, there's no real money in books unless you're, you know, writing about wizards. But putting books together has always been something I've been interested in and it's increasingly become accessible and easy to do like the barriers to entry are probably lower than they have been for a while. Perhaps with self publishing routes. We've actually avoided the self publishing route altogether now. So we don't even do it that way. But at the time it was an option that we thought we'd explore and that's kind of how it came to be. And so and correct me if I'm wrong, but delusions of branch. It was your first the first book that you published. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then obviously Gasp has done quite a few since then. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the thing is with Andrew Bolton, we've collaborated on Adele rights and ads which funnily enough Byron Sharp all did a hundred copies of which pretty double sales of that book. Yeah. And now how brands blown. Yeah. It's amazing. Love it. It is. It is a fabulous book. If you what I like about it is I'm similar to the first one as well. It's this nice balance is having a laugh. But also there's some real wonderful nuggets of wisdom in that. So sort of this this takes you on this nice journey of sort of humor but then also actually educating it. And but yeah, how did this one come about? What was the need for the for the second? It's absolutely fantastic work. Your time. Need might be a bit too strong a word. But I think well even even after the first book I sort of I still had quite a lot of material that I built out and and I don't know. I think Giles and I started talking about it only maybe I don't know six months after the first one, whether we were going to do a sequel and and and then I sent him a whole lot of stuff a couple of years ago. And then we sort of had it in the in the works for a while. But but since then we sort of added quite a lot to it as well. So and and a lot of it I think is probably some of the better stuff. So it's lucky that we didn't get it out too quickly. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean was there anything in particular in it that you that you found sort of that you really, really loved writing or anything that you found a little bit difficult in it? Well, we actually both wrote different pieces in it. But personally speaking, the one place that I remember sort of sort of chuckling to myself about was The Copywriter's Dream, which was the one where, you know, this this guy wakes up and sort of lives the perfect day. And then and then suddenly wakes up to realize that it's all a nightmare. Because I think I'd almost woken up with it in my head somehow. And yeah, and just sort of came together. So that was an easy one. But in terms of, yeah, things that I didn't like, I mean, it's all been stuff that I have enjoyed writing. Like I like writing satirical pieces and I like writing blog pieces and all that sort of stuff. But having said that, some of the some of the satirical work has definitely been born of annoyance. You know, something that I particularly annoyed about that in the industry that sort of makes me react to it. So I guess in some ways, you know, so that I wouldn't didn't enjoy that so much. And then, you know, how you can think about. So there's this one place that I did, which is quite a few years ago now, which was the rewrite of the Lemonade kind of in the style of modern copywriting, which I think was kind of written in anger, to be honest. But yeah. If there are so many of those where you sort of you relate to so much of it if you work in advertising. So yeah, thanks for thanks for pouring out some of some of the sweat and tears into the pages. Charles, I think the key point is about recognising it. So it's got you off the duck hunting piece in here is to me one of the finest bits of writing I've ever read. It's just like it's so unapologetically and perfectly Ryan. It's so satirical. It's so witty and it's so true. And I think some of the like I'm always mindful talking or when we're having discussions about anything that's satirical, which is kind of like a brother to cynicism sometimes or too easily that it's seen as just a criticism. But I think that I think and I'm sort of preempting any kind of I suppose criticism the book might get from people who think it is overly cynical. That if it's funny and you get the joke, then it's not a criticism just for the sake of criticism. Like it's almost like for it to be funny, it has to also be true. So it's like a reflection of what is happening in the industry. It doesn't mean to say you think the industry has gone to parts. I think far from it, there's a lot of hope in the industry. And I think there's definitely an amazing comeback for creativity that we're witnessing. And there's loads of people fighting the fight on the front line further ahead than Ryan and I can claim to be. So I think that it's worth mentioning that it's worth mentioning that it is done for the right reasons. And it's done because it's true, right? We can laugh at it will also not be negative. And I think one of the points to that point, one of the points that I've made before is that I think it's the purpose of that kind of satirical writing is that it allows you to punch with a velvet glove. You know, you don't have to be openly aggressive about the way that you approach this criticism. I think if you can do it in an entertaining way, I think it makes it more approachable basically. It reminds me a lot of your tweets, which are always hilarious. And it's a beautiful light-hearted tongue-in-cheek, self-deprecating chemo. I think it's done in a really nice way. I loved it. I guess this is the perfect book for anyone really in advertising or marketing. Again, it's that nice balance of the practical, but also of having a laugh and taking the piss out of some of the crazy decisions that are made. What are some of the more crazy things that you've seen recently, Ryan, that have got you going? Oh my word, what on earth was going on? I mean, as a bit of an enduring trope, I guess, there's this kind of idea of ad agencies working at the speed of culture and sort of various modifications of that term, which I just find nauseating. I really object to the idea that advertising should be, I don't know, at the forefront of whatever is happening in culture. I just don't think that that is necessary. And I think sort of harking back to Burnback's simple, timeless human truths is much more what we should be focusing on. And I think we've kind of lost sight of that to a large extent. Yeah, and I suppose tied in with that the whole obsession with the latest thing and AI recently, obviously, which seems to have died down a bit, fortunately. But, you know, all that sort of stuff that just becomes a fad for a while and quickly gets forgotten. And, you know, we sort of move on to the next thing. So, yeah, obviously, that's a lot of the focus in the book as well. I'm sure that Charles would agree with that. Yeah, I think it's almost, I think there's a misconception or misunderstanding that we're going to somehow get past the kind of delusions that are so evident in the industry. There's always one ready to replace the one you're trying to replace and trying to move past and improve roles. So there's so many you can, there's so many you could use. I'm constantly finding or hearing new terms, which are just for the thing that already exists, but they've re-batched it. And I don't know whether it's, I mean, people love talking a lot now about B2B influencers, specifically in the context of the CEO of a business is an influencer. But I don't know when that wasn't always true, right? So there's things that are kind of getting re-batched and given a bit of polish and just chucked out into the, you know, the industry rhetoric, as if it's like, wow, this new sparkly thing. But actually, if you look under that new sparkly thing, it's just a timeless truth, I suppose, to Nick. Ryan's already stolen brilliant words. Ray Starr. But it's just a funhouse mirror. I think the other thing to talk about or to flag is that we're not saying we're immune to it either. I look back, we've been running 14 years, and I look back at some of the conversations. In fact, I looked back at a pitch deck that we produced about, thank you, about 10 years ago. And honestly, I was embarrassed to be me because I remember writing a slide in there thinking, my God, did I really believe that at the time? Right. So this, I think Tom Fishburne, marketoonist, said we were holding up a funhouse mirror to the silliness of modern marketing. And I think that just articulates it so well. And we're not saying that we can't see ourselves in the mirror. I'm definitely not. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And, you know, we're caught up in it as well. Yeah. I mean, you run an agency, Charles, like how do you, you know, do you give your team some of the classics to read so they get those foundational stuff? Or like, how do you, how do you temper the hype around it? Temper is a good word and appropriate. So we used to, we've stopped doing it for some reason since the pandemic, but I am hoping to introduce it. In fact, we have an almost recent hire. We used to prescribe, if that's the right word, a few industry books and asked that they were read in the first weeks of someone joining the industry. We do, we frequently talk to clients about the timeless classics. We've reprinted the wonderful JWT Stephen King's planning guides. We had that photocopy that does the rounds. We had it transcribed and reprinted it and we give that to clients and say, look, this isn't ours. But this is, this is worth understanding and worth reading. I'm, I rarely, I rarely stop banging on about some of the late greats. And I think that's all you can really hope to do. Yeah, certainly Jeremy Bulmore, the late great Jeremy Bulmore. I'm constantly asking people to read his, his articles. And it's, it's funny Chris, because the, the sentiment behind why I do that is true of just marketing knowledge and those timeless truths as much as it is to say something is seemingly trivial as a brief template. And I've, I've taught elsewhere about the two templates from I think 1960s and 1970s respectively, the BBH and JWT briefs, which to me, it would be a waste of time for us as an agency to try to improve them because far smarter people have already reached the conclusion with their template and actually we're probably better off spending our time on actually doing the work instead of speculating about whether we can make one of the questions in a brief better. And I think that's the, that's the thing that needs addressing. Totally agree. I mean, Ryan, what are some of the, your, you know, when you try and look back at the, at the greats, who are the people that you go to for your, for your wisdom, apart from John? I mean, well, he. I usually hardbacked it will burn back. I've already mentioned, you know, all the certain kind of the classics over we and the, and the great copywriters David Abbott. We, I, well, till fairly recent, we've got obviously got how brands blow. I'm going to grow the original work and, you know, make sure that everyone, basically everyone who comes into the agency understands, you know, has read those, those books. How to write better copy by Steve Harrison. Yeah, I mean, that's the kind of the classics really. It's cool to do a gasp series of these jobs and you'd like us to reprint or something like a little collection series, perhaps for an excellent bit. I mean, so back to the book, Ryan, you're saying that you, that you, he delayed launching it by, by a little while there. Was that what, what were you, what were you waiting to put in? What was the, the extra stuff you're saying? I wasn't waiting to put in anything. I was waiting for Giles to design it. Yeah. I was like, okay. Yeah. Ryan, it was definitely designed. Did you delay it? Nope. It is beautifully done. That's all I've been. It is. Everything he really is. I made it. Yeah, I love it. It's, it's worth it. It's worth me creating Giles at the moment for that because it does look amazing. Yeah. He did an amazing job. But yeah. And I, it just happened that because it was delayed. I had managed to write a few things in the intervening time. So, so it's fortunate. Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of a, it was a bit of a game of thrones. Who's the game of thrones author where everyone's like, panics about whether he'll still be around long enough to finish the book. Not to that stage, didn't it? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No, you're right. You know, Well, can I say all that Giles? I actually about about a year ago, I changed the background on my phone to be the cover of the book. So that every time I looked at my phone during the day, it would remind me to get the head on with finishing the book. I didn't know that. That's good. Well, congrats. Congrats on making it. And it's, it's housed on the 11th. So by the time this says, I think it'll be, it'll be, it'll be available at all good and bad book shops everywhere. And, and online, I see you can always already get your Amazon orders in. But yeah, it's, it's such a fun book. And yeah, I mean, what, what have you got the next project lined up already? I mean, if they take this long, you might as well get started now. Well, yeah, I don't know if I'll be alive to say it. I'm out of material now. So I'm going to have to start working on it if we're going to. I think there's some spin-offs, right? I mean, Ryan and I have loosely spoken about a few spin-off things, whether it's merchandise or what, that could easily fall out of the book. So I think we can have fun with that, without maybe, you know, trying to achieve another book. Put it in too much effort. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? I mean, the book's full of, there's a bit of fun things as well. There's lots of bits of advice. I mean, what are some of your favorite bits of advice that you like to share with your teams? Either way, you can go first. You know, you can tie that one first, mate. Yeah, I mean, there's so much in it. You can probably just pick a random page to be honest. I think it's, there's things that I've realized in trying to run an agency or a business, a group of creative people. And I don't claim to be great at doing that, by the way, but there's a few things I've noticed that people often need permission to laugh about things in the industry. So unless they think someone, perhaps more senior or whatever, however you want to kind of articulate the natural hierarchy that exists whenever you put a few humans in a room, they always need permission to laugh about things and dismiss things. And I think the book dismisses everything from redesigning a logo for the sake of keeping it fresh to having another meeting for the sake of having a meeting. All these things that all businesses are probably guilty of to some degree, but we all go along with it until someone has the metaphorical balls to say, actually this is a bit ridiculous, isn't it? And actually to call it out. So I think the book calls out so many things and Ryan's brilliant at calling things out without being like too white, wildly critical in a fun way. I think that's the biggest thing for me. If you just look at the agendas in here, whether you're talking about brand positioning and people just going overboard on, I don't know, how much they might think consumers love their products, all sorts. There's so many groups and I think that's the thing. To me, the one core to it all is just like giving permission for people to laugh at it and say, actually this is why are we doing this? Why are we sat on a table and talking about this? It's daft. Yeah, well, thanks. Yeah, that's probably, I mean, that is a thread, definitely. I mean, if I had to think of a specific example, there's an article or as a blog originally that I wrote about a campaign here in Australia for the BCF brand, which is boating camping fishing and sort of trying to break it down into what made it an effective campaign and what kind of specifically made it different from the classic kind of and industry darling campaign and, you know, sort of a typical award-winning ad. And I think that I've actually used, yeah, BCFing fun. There you go. So, and I've actually, I've used that in, I've spoken to the people at my agency about it and I've used it in a couple of presentations that I've given as well as, you know, as an example that a very sort of tangible example of why an ad like that works and why it's effective and why that's the sort of work that we should really be striving for rather than sort of, you know, going after awards. But having said that, it's very difficult to kind of get that message across to people who, you know, where it might actually skewer your career in the sense, which is where I think, you know, people like Giles and I are probably at an advantage because of the fact that we work for, you know, a small independent agency. We're not sort of beholden to that kind of, you know, having to be chasing after awards and so on all the time. Yeah. It's a great piece of work and I love Steve Harrison would love it and I'm sure as well that it actually has the name in the tagline. So, at least you know who it's for as well. Yeah. It's very, very vulnerable. Exactly. Yeah. It's been running for years. Yeah. Have you got any of your other sort of best, like, most favorite long-running campaigns that use that same sort of theme? I guess in the UK would it be what, like, compare the market or something like the meerkats in that's been going forever as well. Not necessarily the most creative or interesting stuff, incredibly effective. Everyone knows who it is. Yeah. Well, we used that example in the talk that we gave a couple of years ago and that runs here as well. Although it probably won't quite as, yeah, it's the, I don't think it has the same saturation. But what's the, what's the dad that you used that you, that your mum loves or your mum hates and remembers? What's it called? Yeah. That's it. I think how quite was, how quite was, along the lines of I hate that headlight, but when I need car insurance I can't stop thinking of him or something. Yeah, exactly. You need. And that's all you need. It's not rocket science that we do a good job of often trying to make it rocket science. But I think that's, that's sort of, yeah, you often in larger agencies, I guess you, maybe you often try and justify your pricing or justify your position in an agency. So you try and make things overly complicated so that it makes your position more safe. I think you see that a lot in other industries as well, probably in banking. It's the other one I can think of. You kind of create these, these insolvency words. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There is, if there is, Yeah, I agree. Yeah, what do we need to do? Apart from make all clients and all agency staff read your book. Is there is there anything else we can do? Is it, or do you think that's just the way the industry is? Well, I actually do think it's interesting that there seems to have been a bit of a resurgence of smaller agencies and more independent agencies. That small is not the right word. Thinking about Mischief and some of those agencies in the States and so on. I wonder if there is a bit of a trend towards clients appreciating the value of smaller agencies and perhaps that kind of lack of hierarchy and complication and so on. I don't know if you've found that, Giles. I think, yeah, I think you definitely understand something. Greg and his team at Mischief deserve a shout out, absolutely. But I think there's a scale, isn't there? Some people would fiercely agree with you and some would oppose you. Yeah. I think there's huge advantages and I think that independence perhaps a getting more recognition. I also think that it's worth stressing if we're talking about agencies a lot of the problems that are called out in the book and were previously called out 5000 years ago with delusions they're not the fault of the client as much as they are the agency. I believe and whilst this won't make me many friends which is consistent in agency I think agencies need to kind of stand up for themselves a bit more and that's always really easy to do when you've got, I suppose, the privilege stance of I'm not going to lose my job for doing that. So there's all sorts of human behavioural factors that come into this and it's not as simple as I'm going to make it sound but whether you're talking about pitching freely, giving away ideas working late nights, working weekends I spoke to a guy who's a very big probably the most known agency globally recently and he said don't worry Giles, they don't make me do Zoom calls to clients at the weekend now as if like that was some amazing benefit and I was just like mate, this is the wrong, this environment is so dangerous for so many reasons that we need to take responsibility for getting out of it and I think where independence come into it to kind of try and loop it back to your point Ryan is independence are able to make and implement those decisions or have those conversations quicker than you possibly could in a big network or holding company where there's, you know, thousands of people that need to sign off of that particular stance but I think independence will there'll be huge benefits to the independence who survive this kind of process that we I believe are going through at the moment makes a little sense I mean the other ones but I think that is a good it's a good point, sorry I was just going to say it's a good point that you make about you know I don't and I don't think that we really have done this in the book is to have a pop at clients and it's something that I try not to do like you know because they're our lifebloods and also not at customers which I think is one of the things that our industry can do a lot of so that's really something that I think we try and avoid so you know just have a go at our colleagues favorite client favorite client you've ever worked with then Ryan nice well so interestingly enough it's someone that I am currently working with on a global campaign which is very unusual for our agency because we're obviously you know we're a small independent agency in Melbourne on the other side of the world but she's been a client through three different companies that she's worked for and just I've actually spoken about her on a podcast before she's just the dream client in many ways like she briefs well she it's collaborative she will fight for the work that we put forward if she believes in it and the result is that it's been the best work that we've done basically for the last few years so I really use all those things that make a client I can't disclose because it's all pharma related yeah she sounds amazing yeah she's really good any favorites from your side Charles it's difficult to choose a favorite without upsetting others there's two common clients that we have and what I love about the reason these two stand out for me is they're just they couldn't be it would be difficult for them to be any more kind of different from each other one is a big London law firm I can call them out called Adam Shaw Goddard and I should say that they just won one of the most I suppose sought after prizes at the marketing week awards which was they won best marketing team which is them it's recognition of them not us I believe we're their agency of note or that was called out on the night but I mean honestly you couldn't ask for clients they're constantly pushing creative boundaries and are absolutely they're led by a guy called Brian McCready and he is just exactly the person you want in your corner when you're doing anything the other one that I want to call out quickly and why I love them so much is a business and it shows the kind of weird places we find ourselves in as an agency they are in the goods not for resale that industry which I had never heard of but to summarise it as easily as I can they sell everything that isn't for sale in a retail environment so their biggest seller is those small little size cubes you get on hangers in clothing stores I've never thought about who did that so that's fascinating they just get very blind so yeah and I love I think the guys that tracks who I spoke to recently would call it a sweaty business because it certainly is but I just I find that sort of stuff bizarrely interesting I mean I think that's where you often find the most amazing excuses for creative work as well I mean I know one of my friends one of the richest people I know makes cobble boxes it's just a random industry you know not sexy not glamorous but everyone cobble boxes are everywhere so if you make a good machine for those it's like millions and millions and millions and millions what's the saying there's no such thing as a boring product only boring creativity I always admire that when you hear people saying they'd rather on their portfolio put forward like a newspaper brand or something or a washing up liquid rather than a condom brand or something that sounds a bit like or a cool apple or whatever yeah it's amazing there's probably beated to be had in that I wonder whether there's a whole kind of can you make an agency persona around that kind of industry I don't know that's so hard to find them because often they don't do any marketing because they're good fun to work on those things I think it's an industry though Chris we need to spend more time looking into the work that happens with those types of businesses I think there's a guy who works I think he's managing partner at Contagious who I'm sure you're both familiar with and we were talking about I said something in hindsight that I think was quite unfair to him which was at their event they've got big brands like is it Math Metal behind Barbie, McDonald's see all these big brands and I unfairly reference a brilliant tweet I saw recently where someone had said I wish we had a logo like Nike's and someone very sounds like it could have been Ryan and someone said all you need is a simple icon 80 years as a 50 billion pounds worth of advertising there's so much truth in that statement and I think we would learn more if we looked at the brands that don't benefit of this historical work that's been piled into that brand for years and years and years and zooming in so closely on something that McDonald's or Apple might have done it's like well no no let's look at the cardboard box business that your mate runs Chris and understand how he's made a success of that and I think that's where we probably need to spend a bit more time as an industry I'm going way off topic it's a real halo effect though I think with those big brands as the guy fairly said back to me it's like going to Glastonbury people go for the big name brands and the big bands so you put me in my place though won't you that makes sense but look I mean so congratulations again on this fantastic book I know we've not got much more time I'll try and wrap it up but any parting words of advice or words of wisdom from you Ryan you're a great man with words congratulations on a fantastic book why to put me on the spot I don't have any words of wisdom apart from being just read the book you know well done it's lovely and congrats Charles on your incredible design skills it is a bit well it's no extraordinary but I was really kind I'll take that it's one of those things where I think the only metaphor I can come up with it's almost like a joke so Ryan's written these amazingly brilliant jokes and then it's up to me to tell the joke and I think that's what I was just frozen for three years thinking I don't know how to do any credit but hopefully it's close enough as close as I could get but just to finish Chris it's available from the 15th Wednesday and it's available from Amazon it's also available from Waterstones and people who don't dodge their operation taxes as far as I like it's a perfect gift for Christmas anyone who's looking for something for an advertising or marketing friend or fan or lover in their life How Brands Great go and get it for those who love it to you both thank you so much for taking the time out I hope you have a fantastic rest of the year and thank you so much for putting together this book that made me laugh a lot and taught me some stuff to you I hope you make the next one in three months time rather than three years all the very best cheers