 I've been reading the Bible since I was four. Do you accept everything that's in the Bible? Do you think being gay is immoral? I have never claimed that I knew everything that's gone on. So you're using the Bible, and then you're not using the Bible? But now you're holding me to your standard. Do you have contradiction? Probably. It does make you feel bad. Why aren't you a vegan, then? You've got blood on your hands. You seen this before? I've seen very similar stuff. What is it? What is this? You're seeing our sheep. Not the way to do it. Is there a good way to kill? There's a less bad way of doing it. There's not a good way to do it. Exactly. Of course, there's less bad ways to kill people too. It's still... Exactly. Like, I'm just trying to figure out how you would morally justify this, kind of killing and suffering, and even just robbing someone's right to life from them if it weren't some kind of survival situation. Does that mean that it's just if it is some kind of survival situation? Even in this survival situation, I don't think it's OK for me to kill you and eat you. But I'm saying that you have reasons, you know, but now we have basically just taste, tradition, culture. We're down a real good moral justify to do this. Unless you can come up with one, that's all. No, not for things like overfishing. No, I can't. Let's just talk about one fish, drag them out the ocean by their face, smack their head on the ground to kill them as quickly as possible. Do you think that's even justified if I could just have just easily eaten a baked potato with some beans? It's justified if you justify it. What is it justified from the animal's perspective if you have other food? No, but is it justified from the animal's perspective that we get to live in a house and it doesn't? No, but it's not really a right to... We're not violating the rights by living in a house. I don't get cars, you know, like... I'm just talking about giving them the basic fundamentals, like the right to their life, the right to not be enslaved in cruel and unusual punishment, like torture, which is what you're watching now, a gas chamber. Yeah. Some main way they kill pigs. CO2 gas, they burn and suffer. They know they suffer, too. The meat industry know they suffer. Free-range pigs go there, too. So do you think it's OK to do this because we live in houses and they don't? No, I don't... I mean, from what I was raised, like, I know the farmer who brings it to me. I know how it's done. I know Jeffrey Dahmer, mate. He brings him to me. I know how it's done. Well, I mean, you can... You know Jeffrey Dahmer, right? The guy that killed people, right? Yeah, yeah. He killed those humans usually with, like... He'd put them to sleep. Yeah. And then he'd lobotomise them. Yeah. Then they wouldn't wake up. Yeah. But first, he would have, like, a date with them. So give them a good night, a nice day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give them a date rape drug. He would kill them and then eat their bodies and that. Yeah. All right? That was, like, the most compassionate killing you could think of. I don't think it was the most compassionate... Well, wait a second. You think slaughter can be humane? I don't even think that that's compassionate of what Jeffrey Dahmer did. I think he's a murderer, all right? All right. Yeah. But you were saying, I know the farmer. I know how they treat their animals. And I just said, I know Jeffrey Dahmer. I know how he treated his humans. You don't think that that's OK. But with the farmer, if you know the farmer and he knows he treats his animals well, they still go to the slaughterhouse, get decapitated. And I'm saying Jeffrey Dahmer's method was to give him a tablet and put him to sleep. It was almost more humane. So I assume you look at yourself and other animals on the same plane? I not completely know. No. But definitely, they are orders of magnitude higher in value than your taste preferences or your cultural conditioning or where you were brought up. Those nowhere near justify robbing their life from them. But in a choice, if it's a choice between a human and an animal and it's a good human and not a piece of shit like Hitler, then I would have to choose the human because of their experience might be a little bit deeper. We know that it is. But we don't have a choice between a human and an animal. We've got a choice between a burger and an animal. And an animal's life is orders of magnitude more important than a fucking five-minute burger, especially to them. Their life matters to them. Yeah. Like your life matters to you. Maybe not on the same level, but there's some human beings who don't experience the full depth of what it is to be a human being. We protect them with human rights. We look after them. Dogs as well. Is that what you think you're just as important as a dog? Well, if you're not just as important, I'm going to kill them and eat them. Not how it works. It is in some countries. It's not right. Do you think it's right to kill dogs and eat them? If you've got... I'm talking you've got options. You've got some tofu, you've got mock meat, you've got vegan options. I've been reading the Bible since I was four. And it very clearly says all gods, dominion, all gods, creatures are there to replenish you. There's a lot of things in that Bible. Do you take on... Do you accept everything that's in the Bible? Do you think being gay is immoral? No. I think love everybody equally. I think everybody's entitled to their own opinion. You think gay sex is immoral? No. Christianity is a condemnant, don't it? Don't you go to hell for gay sex? Don't you go to hell for gay sex? No. In Christianity? I'm saying do you take everything in the book to be truth? Yeah. Because I can pull up a couple of things and see if you... Yeah. Go crazy. The biggest passage in the Bible that talks about gay sex is actually all about one city. It's described as a place of mass rape, prostitution, and that gay sex in that place was... No consent. So basically... And something... So Christians don't believe being homosexual is a sin or doing homosexual act is a sin? Is that what you're saying? I don't. No, I'm saying in Christianity the ideology... You can't speak for all Christians. You can't speak for all... No, because you're using... You're giving me your subjective opinion of gay sex. Yeah. But when I asked you, is it OK to eat animals, you said, in the Bible, it says. So you're using the Bible and then you're not using the Bible. Isn't our stoning your wife as she commits adultery also in the Bible? Under a very, very specific set of... I'm not a Christian expert, I'm asking you a Christian expert because you're using... I didn't say I was a Christian expert. But you used the Bible to justify eating animals, because you've been reading it since you were four. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, I said that made it easier for me to look at. No, I'm just asking, did you use all of your moral justifiers from reading the Bible? That's what I'm asking. No, not all. So not everything in the Bible you follow to a tee? Like all the commands and all... I try my best. Yeah, what about that shall not kill? Uh-huh. What about Isaiah 116? You know that one? Nope. The wolf lays down with the lamb. Oh, uh... There'll be no evil done upon my mountain. It's when the animals stop eating each other. Right. So in that, when Messiah comes, or when the second coming, or the God's perfect paradise, is it something like that? I'm not a Christian, though. Yeah, yeah. So God even thinks that when no evil is done upon his mountain is when animals will stop eating each other and everyone will live in harmony. Yeah, but they're still in each other now. I'm living in alignment with God's will, and why aren't you? You know that God's will is for us to not eat other animals. Yeah. You can do it now. But you can't stop a dog from eating a fly. You can't stop children from being raped. That happens all over the world, just because you can't stop it doesn't mean it's okay to do it. Okay, so if a cat chases a mouse in a field... I'm asking you, since you have the choice to live in alignment with God's perfect paradise, why don't you autonomy... Because I'm not perfect. No, but you can easily do it. It's not even about being perfect. I'm an ex-gang member who was once violent, who changed his life around and is now non-violent to people and doesn't do this to animals. So if I can work it out, an ex-gang member who was violent. But now you're holding me to your standard. Oh, just basic decency. Do you think this is wrong? The way that you're seeing there, mass farming, gasing, yes. So when you buy... When you buy, you go to the supermarket and you get free-range chicken, free-range eggs for... So you don't eat when you're out? No, not from the... I don't buy my meat droggies from the supermarket. Yeah, but milk, eggs, all that stuff. Cheese, everything. Like, that all comes from, like, mass farming and slaughterhouses. All those animals are slaughtered just the same way here. The male chicks are ground up alive or gassed in the egg industry and dairy cows are slaughtered for burgers. So it doesn't matter if you get some of your meat from this guy that you know. Like, every single product here, every... you've got to buy a cookie. It's got dairy from cows that are slaughtered. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just talking about, like, not holding you to my standard, just the standard that, like, to boycott things that you think are, like, morally wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, if you agree that's morally wrong, then you would boycott it. You would say, ah, I'm going to be a vegan because at least I know I'm avoiding animal agriculture. I don't know about that. So you don't think it's wrong to kill a cow even if they've been looked after? I gave you the Jeffrey Dahmer humane slaughter situation. Yeah. I made it like an analogy. Yeah. And he didn't make them go into a slaughterhouse. Maybe some of his victims, but some of his victims, he didn't, like, force into a slaughterhouse where they smelt blood and they had to escape a knockbox. Yeah. We've investigated these places. Two family-run slaughterhouses and they're just as horrible. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, in this, wherever you get your, I don't know, where do these cows that you buy get slaughtered? Do you visit the avatar? I haven't, no. You haven't watched the animals be slaughtered? No. Okay, see, there's one part of this situation that you don't know about. Mm. The main part. Yeah. When they lose their life. Mm. So what do you think happens in there? Because I want to find out if you think it's wrong. All the bit you described about how they get killed. So they get forced down a kill line, put into a knockbox? I don't know. Like I said, I've not been there. Because you said, basically, you're friends a farmer, so you know everything that goes on? I have never claimed that I knew everything that's going on. Okay. I know the farmer. I know how it's done. But you go for a special farm to get your meat? I do. But you don't know about this big part that's deleted, which is their slaughter? Yeah. Wouldn't you want to know? No. Because I trust in what he says, because they're very keen on trying to be humane farmers, at least from their perspective of what that would mean. I know I'm sure you would think of someone completely different. Do you think it's humane what they're doing? The way that they said that they do it and that they try to do it to make it as painless and simple as possible, then yes. As humane as it could be. Yeah, but is it humane? I'm not saying more humane than the worst situation possible. We'll go back to it. What does humane mean? What does humane mean? You tell me. It's a very compassionate kind of benevolence. Right. Do you think it's kind? To raise animals that trust you? I'll go back to the first thing we said. It's not more right. It's less wrong. So it's not humane? Because it's not good. You said at the start, you said it's not good, but it's less bad. But you're boxing it into a word that doesn't... It's not fit for a genre. The meat industry used humane rhetoric all the time to the public. That's why I'm specifically using that word. Yeah, they will. But more than Mother Teresa used it, which she was doing humanitarian work. I'm sure. So they act like they're some amazing charity that just has a sanctuary for animals and doing God's work, when really they're raising animals that trust them. They betray them by sending them to one of the most horrible places on earth, which is a slaughterhouse, to get decapitated and chopped up into pieces. And then they say, it's all humane, mate, you don't have to worry, just trust me, and then you trust them. Yeah. You trust basically animal killers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you wouldn't think the Jeffrey Dahmer situation I posed to you was humane or good. You probably think it's morally reprehensible. Just taking them out on a date, slipping them a date rape drug. Yeah, it's not great. And then they fell asleep and they didn't feel a thing and they don't wake up and they get chopped up into a freezer and eaten. Yeah, it's not... It's not brilliant. It's horrible murder. Yeah. Yeah, with victims involved. So that's not great, but this is morally permissible when you would eat the bodies of these animals here. Yeah. But you would not eat the humans, of course. 100%. Do you have a contradiction? Probably. You wouldn't resolve that contradiction. I've tried a few times. By what? Tell me. Whole milk. Cut that out. Should I ask him? No, like hazelnut, coconut. Oh, plant it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Plant this milk. Yeah, 100%. Taste better. So why would you make that decision? Was it an ethical decision or was it to do with the... One of my best friends is vegan. She went to Cambridge study. We've had conversations like this with no microphone and no TV screens. So she did philosophy, human rights and all the stuff we've been talking about. And actually, that's why I'm so happy that I have that friendship. It's because we can have open dialogue about these big things. You don't seem defensive. That's for sure. No, do you know what, man? So a lot of people do get defensive and emotional when trying to fight back. 100%. Because it does make you feel bad. Because you do know that even if someone is doing it in the least worst possible way. I wouldn't say the best because it's not the best way of doing it. It's the least bad. The best way of doing it is not to do it. It's to protect animals and leave them alone. Exactly. And we've had many, many open dialogues about that and so I don't miss milk. You're not a baby cow, wait, as well. Well, sometimes I'm a better kid. You've got to think of what happened to those baby cows as well in order for you to take their milk. So a lot of them get slaughtered. Yeah. So try to do that. So basically, it was the dairy industry that you felt was bad so you felt that taking the milk away was a good, was an easy thing to do. So you did that? Or is it just... You know, yeah, I did it because it was the easiest, it was the easiest instant change that I could make for me personally. But you will go to a specific shop in order to eat meat which is an incredible inconvenience. Well, yeah, also, I know, like I know and I've been going there for years. Yeah, so you will not eat meat outside of this one farm which is incredible. Well, apart from restaurants and things like that. OK, so you do eat meat outside just like everyone else. You eat factory farmed animals, animals that have been tortured and lived in horrible suffering, as well as... I've been doing this for 10 years speaking to people about this. Right. And what I find is when people see this, they go, I've got this one farm, this one farmer shop and my friend Barry, he owns it and I get that at least three times a day. And I'll talk to him and I'm like, you're 15 years old. What do you eat? You get your eggs from there, your milk from there, and he goes, I got a fish at a farm. And he goes, yeah, a fish and lambs and also pigs are there. And so it's a one-stop animal product shop. There's that. And then you only ever eat that. And he goes, outside here, I'm vegan. I was like, yeah, mate. You didn't even know what veganism was. So it's liars. In terms of buying in meat for my household, that is where I go. But, yes, like, if I... Well, it's liars. It's liars when people do it. I'll tell you why they do it because they want to avoid accountability for this. Yeah. So what they do is they say, I'll get this from this magical place you would never have, like, I've been an investigator for a few years now, too. And I've seen all the investigations that people conduct that they shimane happy, high welfare places. Oh, yeah. Theory comes down and it magically appears. Trust me, vegan activists, I feel bad about this, but I'm going to remove all accountability for myself and say, this is magical farm. And I never eat, like, just everywhere that everyone else does. Oh, yeah. You know, so it's basically... Oh, I do. I would never... I would never lie about that. This is what I did. I felt like the biggest hypocrite, right? I felt like I was inconsistent with my values. If I'd seen someone hurting an animal, of course. And I felt that the only way for me to be consistent was to be a vegan. Yeah, to be consistent. Because it's... Yeah. This is one of the best decisions we can make, other than going out there and influencing others, to avoid animal rights violations and unavoidable, like, there's unavoidable deaths that occur, right, from existing. But I don't advocate for you to kill yourself. But when we talk about, like, animals being gassed to death so we can eat their body, this is easily avoidable. Yeah. Why aren't you a vegan, then? That's what I want to know. But... You've got blood on your hands. I know. Yeah. You're causing this to happen. And that is the funny part, right? I know. And you're smart. Well... You inconvenience yourself to go to this one farm. So you can make decisions unless it was all just the story. No. I'll take your word for granted here. That shows me that you're willing to make decisions and inconvenience yourself. And being a vegan here, like you're in the UK, is one of the easiest decisions to make. Products everywhere, nearly every single fast food chain and restaurant are vegan options. They're everywhere, man. Yeah. And now you can get even cake right now. Also, it's who we've got vegan options. So you point it out. You tell me which store it is and they've got vegan options. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's such an egregious injustice because we have options. We're not starving to death. We're not living in the highlands with William Wallace and have the bloody wear of sheep in order to stay warm. That's where I'm from. I'm Scottish, by the way. I'm an Armstrong. Are you? Yeah. Okay, yeah. I'm a camel. I'm going to be on the animal side. Blue face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would suit you. It would look good. The beard would have to just, you know. I'd have my Kylton. You would have yours. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got it on under this. Just, yeah, yeah. I'm glad you're not... I don't want to expose yourself. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, well, literally, if it gets the wind goes, you're done for. But, yeah. No. You can do it, man. The overfishing one gets me. Like that, like I don't eat fish ever. My mum and her partner live in a fishing village. And obviously, that's how his dad's, dad's, dad's, dad's, dad's have made their living. But small fishing boat, very kind of, you know, two guys on the boat. And they've said to me first-hand, like... Overfishing her. These trawlers that come in. They're ruining their fishing. And then they go, and they're, you know... They trawl up everything in their path, which is worse. It's just like Hitler is worse than you have a serial killer. But I still think fishing fish out the ocean... Less... Less bad. Yeah, less bad. It's the... It's the less bad or the fairy buds. A big fishing vessel is like the, you know, the trawling, it's like the Hitler of the ocean, essentially, for the fish. 100% But somebody goes and just tangles. One hook and drags that fish from their face out of the ocean. You know, it's just like dragging a dog into the water by a hook. Yeah. So we can eat them when we have options. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And the options are getting better. And the options are getting better. Yeah. Even if that were worse, I'd still do it. I'm sure of that. Yeah, because it's the right thing to do. Yeah. What was your name, bro? Good luck to you, Cameron. Cameron, thanks for chatting with me. I really appreciate it, man. Best of luck. It's, um... Somebody's got to... Shout out to your best friend. Yes. Hitler is... Hi, Heather. Did she, uh... Get you on the right track? She will do. Thank you. Cheers, brother. See you later.