 to be here today and I see that there's already 34 questions asked by people who are no doubt early birds in this platform. So while we start out the technical difficulties presentation let's see what's happening here. So in case you missed the instruction and if you have a phone please connect to this website slido.com your mobile phone browser and I see people have laptops here too so your laptop browser as well and once you're in here please time in today's date that is 3 to 9 and in here while people identify themselves like our colleagues watch how you don't watch the game there are also people who choose to remain anonymous and it is okay to remain anonymous because we felt that if we ask everybody to have to enter your names sometimes we ask and ask questions that are more regular let's say that but if people can become anonymous sometimes we get more challenging more interesting questions so if you have two browsers you can use two browsers one to ask questions that anonymously and one ask with your name and so let's just dive into the questions and as the moderator said the prime structure is as follows for the next 50 minutes or so I will answer all the questions ranked from the ones with the most likes to the one with the least number of likes so if you want to see some question answered before the other questions simply press like on the like button next to the question and the question was the higher number of likes will flow to the top and after we take a short maybe 10 minute break we will dare resume the same question as the format until the time runs out and so with your further ado and it is exactly 7 p.m. let's get into the first question the four people has wanted to ask all this corporate social responsibility or CSR and corporate innovation complement each other this is a great question and to answer this question I would like to show you this picture this picture in my mind is what our government our public service the administration looks like in my mind after I finish reading this very important book called democratic governance which is like a standard public administration tax book which I read for one entire month I bring with myself only that when I was traveling in Paris after I become appointed the digital minister but before I actually go into the office so I spent one month studying professor chance work and in my mind after reading that book it occurred to me that the public service that's all of us here are like this rope between this to in the sense that in the sense that we in the previous centuries democratic model governments are supposed to be the arbitrator between the different interests in the society we collect resources we reallocate resources and we try to make sure that allocation is fair that people don't hurt each other that it is a safe playground for all the puppies and so it is a pretty good picture actually at the time the various interests the ones for labor it was for capital the ones for environment and so on maybe they have different sides but the government is strong enough to maintain the connection as well as the resilience of that playing field however all this changed around ten years ago ten years ago we see the invention of the mobile internet of the mobile phone of the social media and with those few tools suddenly people feel much closer to each other they no longer need traditional journalists they no longer need a MP they no longer need any representatives but they can organize very quickly on the internet and the mass thousands tens of thousands of people for a common cause and suddenly those are not puppies anymore they grow into its very powerful creatures but again our public workforce remains the same number of people so the pension that the society pulls our public administration workforce in every which way has increased tremendously and so the same old questions how do we are betrayed how do we reallocate soon becomes a lost cause it becomes very difficult to convince any side of the other side's argument and the more democratic a country is the less trust it gets from its people this is a worldwide trend and so I think this question is very pertinent in the sense that when we talk about social innovation or show a trance in what we're talking about really is a different set of questions instead of asking what is fair or what is you know safe keep people from each other we should ask instead what is a new solution that works for everyone or if people cannot come up with new ideas there's a win-win solution for everyone which is innovation but it's not always easy right at least we can ask what are the common purpose what are the common mission that we can all agree on what are the non controversial essence that everybody share the common value even though their interests may differ and if we keep asking these questions the public administration becomes a space rather than a line in which all the different forces can join to solve common social problems as though corporate social responsibility or CSR is a way for established some publicly listed very powerful private enterprises and using their management their innovation their products their services sometimes they want to do it for such a good but this does not always result in innovation because it has to be met by the civil society by the charities by the cooperatives by the self-organized people by the people who needs those resources and if they match in the middle if the government plays our matchmaking powers right they will form together into a real field that results in social innovation so let me repeat a social innovation is a common purpose or a common mission it is to solve a social problem to create a social impact so a mission and an impact and in the middle something new happens and that is social innovation the social enterprise is one particular kind of social innovation is that let's create a business model in the middle that solves social problems that achieve social impact while becoming profitable in the process while retaining our social mission so as you can see very clearly this is not the same thing as corporate social responsibility a corporate social responsibility is something that established companies do when they're profitable they make their services and products and their time for social good which was great but the social enterprise is an entity that is formed with a mission whether they're profitable or not it is a innovation it is a journey to try to make a business model out of a common purpose out of solving a social issue if it fails well like any other innovation most innovations fail somebody else afterwards can learn from the mistakes and losses but if it works then it becomes a replicable model there's many social innovators in Taiwan in the past 20 years they take all sorts of different organizational forms they may take the form of a cooperative like this homemakers union consumers cooperative they may take the form of a charity of the foundation and the true job are as foundation or they may take a form of a comedy with the social or environmental purpose like comedy here and again all these are social innovators that has been around for more than 20 years evidently their innovation in business model has succeeded at least for one generation and those are our heroes in the social innovation area and so I think the answer the quick answer to this question is corporate social responsibility are like one arm one branch from the force of the market that is waiting for the other part from the charities from the co-op from the social site to meet in the middle and once they meet in the middle sometimes innovation happens but this is never done by CSR alone this needs to be done by the governing bodies by the stakeholders around the environment as well as by the social forces in my mind that is their connection and the government's role here as this circle shows is to solve problems for those problems of us we're not here to solve all the social problem ourselves the social problems are so complicated now they're so wicked now a wicked problem is that to solve it you require coordinated action from all the different players so it can be solved if any one of the stakeholders refused to commit that you don't solve this problem so this is what we call a wicked problem and so our role here is to make sure that everybody knows what is going on so I will spend another three minutes to talk through a concrete example because abstract theories are great but without example they really mean nothing we have a bunch of designers they're very young designers who came up with this idea called a good so a little bit of good and a good team specialized in looking at the parts of the society that are disadvantaged that are handicapped that are marginalized and we saw those people and think they are roush they're they're weak minorities people and they find the part where they are actually superior they're actually alpha they're actually doing it better than you or me and make an excel in this particular area for example this very cute real serious this dog this fish all these pretty illustrations are drawn by people with dance syndrome or other development difficulties so she had in Mandarin actually the name she has herself is a social innovation because before people were calling them chichang right retarded or whatever but just by calling them see hunger it is a social innovation in itself and a good team discovered that many of them are great painters they have good muscle control they have a body of adult but their mind are like children as though they can draw illustrations that none of us can draw with such innocence and so they engaged and created illustrations they also engaged blind people there is a social enterprise that reconnected to Taiwan it's called dialogue in the dark and they want dialogue in the dark takes place in a completely dark room and we run like consensus camp or training classes or interactive problem solving exercise in the completely dark room and you and I will feel uncomfortable vulnerable in a completely dark room but our facility data are teachers they're blind people they're super confident in that environment and so after two hours six hours spending with blind facility data is our perception of what blind people can do changed a lot it is a transformative experience and so our good looks systematically at Hanukai people and so this time around they look at the street vendors on wheelchairs TN90 and we probably have encountered them already maybe they sell some chewing gum maybe they sell some you know paper or whatever towels but there are three difficulties from a service design perspective first they don't have a business model or elevator pitch if you and I ask them what kind of work do you do maybe they will interact with just very simple phrases like she actually sounds like she's saying oh please do some good right but that limits the interaction you can do with them to a simple transactional purchase but for the transactional process their products are simply not cheaper than the selling level just next door and so people don't keep repeating the exercise of engaging them due to those three pain points and so the point in social innovation as I demonstrated is to try to find all the different links from the environment from the governing bodies everywhere and try to solve this common issue by engaging people who specialize for example in taking care of homeless people taking care of people with handicaps and trying to coach them into professionally present themselves and be able to engage in sustained conversation they also engage with social enterprises that specialize in transformative wheelchair into a good mobile station that provides solar power that's perhaps displayed this LCD screen of interactive shelves and when it's raining the screen can also be folded to you know shield to become an umbrella for the from the rain and also they connect with local city government for example when tiny city pushes for fair trade maybe they can get not just the big issue magazine but also the fair trade coffees and tea and other special local goods as well as any other specialties that for example maybe the flower expo in Taichung will have their tourism guided by these people and finally instead of just people they know and connect with they also ask strangers random strangers on the internet through a platform called crowdfunding so on the crowdfunding platform they ask for this amount of money and very quickly gets more than one million Taiwan dollars but this funding is actually just a show of interest so what people pay for is the chance to contribute to participate with ideas so people will provide that money also provide their time by saying okay perhaps in the places where there's no i-taiwan hospitals these people can serve as hospitals if your mobile phone runs out of power you can charge it at your station while they share your story with you over a fair trade coffee or tea or if it's raining the mobile station can host many food umbrellas and then include more people with the social connection by forming a kind of umbrella session for people who return the umbrella for more stories there are many many suggestions like this and so social solidarity is built by asking a question can we reverse the relative disadvantage social disadvantage of people selling goods on the street so that's the social impact if they're uniting under this common social purpose or social mission of trying to find a place where that disadvantage people know that it's a common purpose and their business model innovation there are many innovations and everybody can take part in the innovation and so this is the concrete example there are many forces at play there are CSR like the tai shin bank donated the first prototype car so that's their CSR and they gained popularity like being mentioned by me in this talk just by donating the very first car but there are many other social enterprises and co-ops and charities at play here too and all the illustrations again are done by the shi ha mer children or us foundations people and so I think this is a very good example to illustrate how corporate social responsibility can interact with social and corporate innovation so that's a pretty long prelude let's see if there's some related or unrelated questions remember you can ask anything and you can ask anonymously um our colleague one should be would like to know in order to solve societal problems do you need we need more social enterprises as well as social innovations since they seem to be more efficient yes we need more people working on social innovations including innovations on the business model the social entrepreneurs I think it's not only that they are more efficient they're more agile in the public service we're providing this schedule right this field but this field the size of the field the budget of the field the law and everything traditionally can only change about once a year right so just today we're writing our national administrative direction that is for the budget of the next year so we move in an iteration cycle that's roughly one year long which is good for stability and predictability and accountability but it is not very agile so when there's a emerging social issue usually the government takes a year to fully form and plan to respond so the social enterprises and social innovators can go to places where the government is not aware yet they can surface problems that we're not aware yet they can also deliver much more efficiently if we allow their work to combine with our work and so this is actually why we have this interesting space called the social innovation lab this is the first social innovation lab in Taiwan it's located in the Taiwan Air Force space the TAF space console near the jingbo flower market conveniently it is about seven minutes walk from my place of residence our ministry dormitory to the social innovation lab it's just walking along the jingbo market so every once in a while i just walk here to work and walk back to the dormitory so this place looks like this and this soccer field is also drawn by the xinghai people from the chujara foundation and there's many different places and this place is unique in the sense that none of these things that you see here is created or defined by the government the government only provides the hardware and the budget and we had a co-creation workshop with about 20 social enterprises and the result the conclusion of our workshop is that we need five more workshops so in total we had six workshops with hundreds of social innovators around Taiwan who suggested all the different things that we would not even dream about they said we need to have a mission class kitchen with a resident chef because food is what people will remember ideas people don't remember food they will remember and so we have a resident chef and we have a top class kitchen and cafe because that we want the minister to be here one day per week so every wednesday from 10 a.m to 10 p.m i'm in the social innovation lab and in my office hour anyone can come talk to me as long as they are agreed to make the transcript public they say many incubation places only open until 7 p.m or 8 p.m but they're really interesting events only just starts around that time so every day this opens until 11 p.m well into the night and so all this are asked and created and required by the source of social entrepreneurs and this is like a black canvas that really changes every week according to the need of the people actually inhabiting the space and now Kaijong starts to have two since three places like this and over the course of next year we'll have another two social innovation labs in different parts of our preferably in non-metropolis cities and so what i'm trying to get it is that when people co-create a space they become home to them when people co-design how the space is used it becomes a living lab and what the government can do is again just to step back and say we welcome creativity here and all the creativity are allowed as long as it's made public and as long as accountable so after i started my office hour every wednesday it's been going on for about half a year now every week i meet with people all around time one interested in the policy making process of social enterprises and social innovation and together we did many laws and many regulations we did a fintech sandbox law we did the part of the new company law we did a lot of small to medium enterprise and start-up law that still works we did a platform economy law we did a lot of laws together but very quickly after maybe one month into the office hour i discovered something that is unsettling to me i discovered that people who register for my office hour they either live in high pay or new type of city or they live very close to the high speed rail station otherwise the traveling the time spent traveling to Taipei is just too much and people would not book for my office hour even though telepresence or skype whatever is possible the initial contact it really takes a first-hand contact to the field to the farmlands to the indigenous tribes to whatever actual social habitat they're trying to make innovation of to fully understand their innovations it doesn't work if they take like three hours at a plume up train and just bring me with this powerpoint that it really doesn't work and so i started making a tour of every other tuesday i travel to one of our direct service center our united service center of the central government in the different regions and i make a promise to always return to the same point every two months so the idea is that for example just this week actually i visited Hualien this tuesday and talked with maybe a dozen or so of local social innovators and social entrepreneurs but while i was talking to them and visiting their fields they have this excellent watermelon field that they're using drones to take pictures and count the number of watermelons for example while visiting like this altogether there are about 20 25 people in Taipei in the taiwan air force social innovation lab and these are people from 10 different ministries all related to social innovation actually as of the last count is about 12 different ministries and so what i'm trying to do is that i'm like an investigative reporter a journalist i'm the eyes and ears of the central government's ministry's people and i visit the social innovators and i make sure that we also connect to the tai dong university so it's wadi and tai dong and taipei for this week and what this results in is that because all the questions asked are transparently published online people tend to make very focused conversations and answers and make the best use of each other's time and whatever the central government has the latest programs latest policies latest questions and the latest development locally like after the earthquake what should we do about the new travel plan and things like that gets resolved very quickly and so two weeks after this we published a whole transcript for the next stop to use and after two weeks after that we published all the transcript for the next stop to use and two months later we return to the same spot and by that time all the questions from the previous round will have to be resolved and so this is a new kind of a touring mechanism so yeah this really works really well the teleconference equipment scopia is already purchased during the stars prices but nobody really uses that much every year at the beginning of the lunar new year the premier user to say greetings to everybody but otherwise it's not used very much but now we're using it very regularly and now has a pretty good high-definition connection between those different places where social innovation happens and places where laws and policies happen so we try to connect these two forces and I'm very happy after our new premier I think the came to office he starts to do the same thing right touring around Taiwan county and county city by city and after the first round of the special budget and the long-term care plan now is during another round of touring the latest news says around industrial innovation which is great so I think this kind of mobile government really connects and shortens the distance between the people and us the public servants and again going back to first drawing it was like this not because the distance between the government and people have become larger people feel that we are of longer distance because the new social tools and mobile phones and so on make people feel closer to each other so relatively they feel more distant to the government but we can also use the same tools to connect to people to make them feel closer to us it is not something that only the civil society and the private sector can do we can use the same tools and so once we use the same tools the same sense of closeness returns our colleague Wang Chaoyun would like to know how to make public servants brave to innovate without fear of failure and bureaucratic control you need a presidential letter this is a one of the designs that we did it's called the presidential social innovation hackathon now some of you may have heard of hackathon and think a two day at most three day a weekend marathon of coding and collaboration that is not really marathon it is just a sprint this is a true marathon this runs from march to june so this is like three months and so it's a real marathon and what this is formulated is basically saying so we have these presidential promises right i've already voted for dr. Sinewood and she kind of promised and she'll make all these things get better and some of them did some of them not not really so there's a lot of areas that we can work on that help the public servants that's human main to deliver on those presidential promises which means that is our national focus at least for the public service and so personally actually this is a project i personally led before i joined the cabinet i'm still eating it and what we do is basically working with the ministry of education to liberate all its different dictionaries and try to make them into one useful dictionary not just for the Mandarin Chinese but also for Taiwanese and it's a whole lot of indigenous languages like the Amis-Banzai people as well as for English for French and for German and there are also many other civic hackers social innovators who use data science to predict fire to manage prevention right of domestic violence of predicting where and how the electric grid will be hit by the phone there's many cases and so what we're trying to do here is that we're asking teams to propose their ideas and the ideas must be somehow connected to the public service so these are the things that we are going to rank tomorrow all our referees our judges are going to look at all these social innovations and try to select 20 that we can come into this year and we discover something very interesting so um yeah let's not look at me at all really very interesting so these people uh there's not something very interesting many of the proposed teams are actually cross sectoral in the sense that there is a sometimes mid-level project level public servant but they partner with the media like the the storm media or the Tianxia media or whatever other media people press people or they work with civil society organizations like MPOs and charities and so one is sectoral always the mid-level public servant that says that a good working supporting role we got contacted by these people who are in the private sector or in civil society who want to make improvements and these people are of course very capable and they say okay we need data scientists we need AI experts we need many blockchain experts to make this happen for example but I have discovered that actually all this looks very much like proposals in the public service maybe these are the proposals that have sent in the drawer in the desk of that mid-level public servant for many years because there is no political will or there's no budget or there's no cross ministry communication or there was just no not enough time to refine the proposal into something that is feasible that can ask the minister for budget and so the public servants actually have a lot of very innovative ideas but in the environment of a bureaucratic control it is actually kind of hot to get the resources needed to make the innovation happen and if it fails it's tied directly into the career of the public servant so it is actually difficult to propose but now the risk and credit benefit ratio changes right the risk is now absorbed by these people right they selected the social innovations for presidential promise and their credit is shared with the people including people in the public sector who propose these things and so as long as the risk is absorbed by someone higher up like the president and the political will is there like from the president to get the cross sector and cross ministry data and the team and then the credit is shared we find that even though this hackathon has no price money whatsoever right even if you're the final final five teams all you get is this trophy right well and you can also join the new zealand presidential a real presidential government hackathon and that's one of the gifts we just got today but but there is no money there's no financial reward but people still find that it's worth it to spend the time to propose these innovations i think there's two incentives first is the intrinsic incentive to try to make our land right our people better and the second thing is that it gets new new new friends because in your proposal we can say our department just don't have people with these skills we want service designers we don't have service designers and this is a way to bypass the HR and recruit people and from all over the world actually there's no limitation of the nationality and to make new friends and have the president as your project manager to make these projects happen and so this is one of the many many ways that we design to try to make its time saving for public servants and risk reducing for public servants and credit sharing for public servants and to my knowledge if all those three concerns are addressed there really is no barrier in the public service that prevents people from innovating and so my office the public digital innovation space works completely in a voluntary way we have around 25 four-time staff we have around 35 interns all over time one so this is kind of a big team actually 60 people and in this team anyone can propose any idea just like in ecathlon and they recruit each other to make it happen and again i'm just here to absorb the political risk if the innovation fails and so this is our core value by the way so the penis core value is to build mutual trust between development and civil society our secondary value is to empower the civil society to be well informed and participate in public affairs and equally important we're here to simplify the administrative flow and so based on these three things we think we can make innovation more easy for public servants and also spread the values through digital service and so these values are not actually always consistent there's some time in fighting with each other there are sometimes tensions but we have a rank right so this is always the most important thing and based on this we have all those different rulings and regulations and things like that which results in all those artifacts in the green cards that you can see around here and so there is a philosophy behind the penis team and again these are not my ideas i'm just the the one who write post-it notes and organize post-it notes and ask my colleagues to come up with these ideas and so again this is a space for people to join and once you're in it we absorb the risk of innovation for you um our colleague palm wiggling would like to know in my work i mean NGOs sometime it does not intellect maybe it's against the government how do i balance our public image and the government's position this is a great question uh so i will use one case to illustrate this and this is not really an NGO this is more like a UX designer but but they're they're actually not a prophet also right they're a learning circle for designers who use math books anyway so they have this organized kind of people who specialize in user experience and last year around may as many of you know our income tax finance software has failed the citizens well for two hours but anyway there was a misconfiguration that makes people like very slow to file their taxes but people also discover that if they use mac or linux that is to say if they don't use microsoft windows the technology that powers income tax for this platform called java java applet from from oracle that makes java run in a browser is abandoned by the oracle company because oracle company did not come out with this technology they bought it from the sun micro systems so they didn't want to maintain it anymore and so suddenly people cannot easily file their taxes anymore when they're out of mac or linux and this is a problem that is me because it's just last year oracle abandoned their technology and so in the national petition system joined that gov that tw we get this petition now some of you may know the petition system says once they reach five thousand people we have to have a response to them but in reality by the time this gets 50 people our participation officer in the ministry of finance yantin han says we've got to reply it now even though it's just 50 people because it's going to be the pr disaster and then nto is right it was a pr disaster and it turns out that the very moment that he brings it to our participation officer network there is a network of participation officers this is a regulation signed by premier nto that says in every ministry we need to have offices just like war with the law and the parliamentary offices xinwen elori the media offices we need officers who deal with this sudden outburst of stable power right have stakeholders so these are called the participation officers or pios and they're from all the different skills and most of the larger ministry now have a team of five to six people that works in this folder and so all the pios are on the same chapter and on a mailing list and have a shared workspace and so jinhong just said you know we've got to respond to them now and we're like okay so we tell them anyone who has a complaint we will invite them to a co-creation workshop and this co-creation workshop we promise we will use exactly the word they used to complain about the tax filing system as a post-it note for improvement in this year's online filing experience as if something magical happens people used to complain we have sentiment analysis software so it used to be that 90 percent of people are angry and only 10 percent of people on the joint platform are saying but my experience is kind of okay while they're in the street minority but once we propose this invitation for them to join this workshop they suddenly realize this now 80 percent of people starting putting out constructive criticism like i want this to improve i want that to improve and only 20 percent of people remain like angry so just by inviting the people who complain the loudest to the kitchen as we said so it's not like we had our candidates to them we had our invitations to the kitchen and so they aren't invited to the kitchen to to cook for this year's tax filing system and we are a true pro word we use to use our journey this is service design concept to chart the journey from the beginning to the end of the tax filing experience and we get people feedbacks complaints actually from the national petition system right into this chart and we didn't change their words right we wouldn't come up with these words and but we collect them on the post-it notes here and in the user journey what's important in this thinking about solutions is the emotion of the user ideally when we design experience when the user engages us more their emotion should be lifting they should feel much more focused much more happy but this system is special because somebody said when i even think about filing our income tax i don't feel well so this is a when we can't design a tax filing system that by the end of it you will feel better it is actually impossible but or very difficult i'm happy to be proved wrong but at least we can design so they don't feel very bad right we can design so they feel calm about filing in context and we will have succeeded and again after a live stream co-creation workshop the conclusion is that we need five more co-creation reactions so we did five more co-creation workshops with the vendor Wang Mo, Wang Wu with the civil servants from Wuxi, Wuxi, Wuxi from preservation offices teams we have professional facility conductors and importantly we have people who complain the loudest and in turn some people complain the loudest are actually expert designers they're expert journalists they're expert engineers and they complain the loudest because they actually know better really they really know better and so when we invited them in we ended up creating something really pointless which is just yes tax filing experience which is very different and much more beautiful ideas than the last year's tax filing experience but the best thing is not the system itself together we found innovative ways to use cloud service systems provided by the high net government cloud service so actually the cost of this system is negative because we save money by switching to a cloud-based system the budget is negative for the system also we discover ways to make it much more popular and so based on the transparent recordings of those five more co-creation workshops all the people who participate even if they just contribute one person note they become our advertisers they say I still look forward to this year's tax filing experience because that's their work they will share it with their families and their friends and you can't buy it right you can't buy this if only my true participation can you turn people who are just angry at the government and into improving the public image you do it by making the public image part of their image you bring their image into the public image um our colleagues are amazing with like the name why do you choose social innovation as a title to share with us this time are there any connections between your current job and the title I'm glad you're asked because if you look at it you know um table that lists the mandates of the ministries with that portfolio I have all these three mandates and the first one is social entrepreneurship certainly we'll say social innovation right so show it here and starting from this year show it on scene that's actually my main job my second job some of you know is open government which is why we have all these participation officers and regulations and the joint platform and all these things and finally I'm also in charge of use empowerment so we have the use advisory council ten years which we are away and other use civic engagement purposes and the use council is great because actually the president the presidential was proposed by a youth counselor in one of the youth council meetings and so it's such a good idea and then we just ask the presidential office to make it a reality and so all these three mandates kind of work together really well we use open government to foster social innovation the social innovation empowers the young people who can then engage in public service who then turn out more social innovations and so the social innovations structure which we're still creating we'll look at something like this there will be laws and regulations there's already laws and regulations but there will now also be a task force our council for sustainable development in a true way will also be part of this and also as compared to the original social enterprise plan from Professor Feng Yan this time around we're doing touch pay the empowerment and immersion of sustainable development and social innovation by the ministry of education and the ministry of interior and we're also taking a very different approach to regulatory co-creation instead of the national development council or the ministry of economy saying this is the law we need they asked instead what is the law that you want to see changed this is that idea of a sandbox i can go into this later but yeah this is a new four-year plan that corresponds with new budget and new laws and regulations that will be our national social innovation plan it will be ready in maybe a month for the premiere to review and every part of this is co-created by our round trip by our office hour with social innovators so this is actually my main job now so i'm really glad that you asked let's see other questions so our colleague Zhuang Zhiyuan will like to know how to use digital technologies in social innovation the answer is that you use it to promote social inclusion inclusion is an idea that i'm sure that many of you already know it's not this it's this one we have the the digital bus plan here that is a continuation of the of the nisi plan but the nisi plan was primarily focused on a stable infrastructure brought back as a human rights connection to wi-fi at one on the high speed rails these are very important but the new digital bus plan is much more cultural and was much more focused on sustainability this time compared to the previous nisi plan and which is why we call it the digital governance right the digital the governance is digital in the sense that this really is a way not to take the existing analog paper services but to reimagine services from the viewpoint of people and then recreate or co-create a smart nation that is composed of many smart cities i'm sure and so this is the governing part so we use digital tools to promote understanding in co-creating the governance but in the two eyes here the innovation part is where we say we we cannot predict where the digital economy will go so we will ask innovators which part of the law and regulation would you like to challenge and if you would like to challenge it in a fintech sandbox already we give them six months 12 months to break the law to try to break the law for social good and if it ends up becoming a good idea then the law and regulation change because the social inclusion is already taken care of in the immersion period of six months or 12 months and if the society rejects it it's not a good idea then if the investors paid the expense for everybody to learn this lesson and so the next innovation will take more care of people involved so this is what we call a co-regulatory co-creation for the digital economy and again social innovation at a civil society plays a crucial role because when we use technologies we can use it in two ways we can use it to bring people's attention on other people like slider we use it to bring my attention to the question that most of you want to see myself so it is a way to connect between people and people however technology can also be used in another way that is distracting that makes people pay attention to some other things trivial personal gaming things but the game is not a public game you can share from it so people become addicted to a private experience of in the digital world but they take their attention away from other people and that is the distracting technology and the technology that enables people to connect more we call it technology for social good or calm technology or ambient computing there are many different civic technology there's many words for this but all they share is the idea of inclusion by using technology we connect more people who would not otherwise be here like the Taijong people at the beginning of the speech we use telepresence projection right technology live-stream technology to bring their focus and our focus together so as long as you deploy technology you can always ask before this technology is deployed and after this technology is deployed does more people pay attention to more people? do more people pay more attention to each other? and if the answer is yes then it's inclusive technology and if it's not then it's exclusive technology and when we deploy technology for social innovation we always deploy socially inclusive technology that promotes access so I promised I would stop around the you know 50 minutes mark and so let's take a 10 minute break and we will go back here after 10 minutes and I will answer the rest of the questions of course still I put more questions down there and I will take a quick look so see you in 10 minutes all right so welcome back and let's go into the second half there's already 108 questions there's no way I can answer so you better start lobbying the people sitting next to you to like your question if you don't want an answer so our colleague again would like to know we need to prevent from making benefit to some particular enterprise so like Tuli right and but some social innovations is based on some particular business model like long-term care and medical assistance so again we may be restricted by law or we may be told that this is not part of the auditing or procurement process and if we make a judgment to make a breakthrough maybe we will be seen as you know Tuli or whatever other thing that people talk about now because this year's social innovation hackathon has already closed for application you can't take this shortcut otherwise this is the shortest actually and but now you will have to make through with some other platforms if you want to avoid the issue of Tuli and moving to innovative procurement there is one particular case I would like to focus your attention on it is the joint platform and but instead of consultation and petition to the administration or to local governments like i voting in the type of city I'm sure that all of you already know it by now I would like to focus your attention on the control unit the control unit is actually a very active user of the joint platform every time they see something that could be a problem or an issue they ask people are you worried about this innovation from this public service what are your worries tell us okay so this is very interesting because whereas before if people start making innovation in public service maybe they they fear that the control unit will think of them as being doing improper business but now the control using the joint platform uses this as a way to get people's worries about innovation but they don't see us as criminals right they forward these questions like I remember there was one about used to be people like a subsidized employment for the disadvantaged people but some people in the city decide to switch that around into renting out public space for a very cheap price to social enterprises running their own company and maybe collaboratively owned by those disadvantaged people so it become a a bichang zu fun right and so so this is a a different procurement or punishing really model and so there's no existing auditing precedents for it but instead of saying no the control unit actually collected all the people's worries about this new model and they forwarded it to the minister to respond for social enterprise that's me and so my office received all these like nine very detailed questions the control unit collected from this platform and then we answered it one by one or a public is a platform and so I think this is the best of both worlds in a sense that you ask the people you know and control you have to come up with something that is anticipating the innovation you're trying to do and collecting your worries from the society and get a minister to answer it and in this way you can't make innovations by having the minister bear the risk of innovation and if you don't have friends in the control unit maybe you can have friends with the examination unit the examination unit as many of you know is the unit responsible the treasury ministry is responsible for our rules on taking the absence right and still on the joint platform while the examination unit officially doesn't really have a participation officer our chief of human resource rental is actually a ministry in the central government and they have participation offices and they're very good friends with the examination unit and so because of this whenever there's petitions like this like changing the rule so that if you have you know things to take care of maybe your family maybe your national travel card and you don't have to take four hours of absence at a time now you can take one hour of absence at a time and that becomes much more flexible and as you can see this is a very quick petition people five thousand people petition for it all our participation offices are for it because we're all state voters and so very quickly we contacted the rental people contacted the petitioner making sure that this is really what i want and forward it to the examination unit and lo and behold the examination unit says okay we will ask the public if they have worries of the new rule for 14 days but after 14 days we will make it a reality so right as of this year i think in early may or even in april the rule has changed because of this petition and the examination unit absorbed the risk of this innovation actually all they want is a due course right this is a each previously there was no initiative from either examination unit to rental or from an administration to the examination unit because nobody wants to be the risk taker to say we want this innovation but now both sides can point to our participation offices they voted for it and our participation offices can say no five thousand people want it right then so so it becomes an issue for everybody and so all the risk is absorbed and all the credit gets shared and in this case you can make a lot of innovations that is pretty insane actually it's it's using the system for our HR benefits right but i think this is a great example of trying to make innovation go through in a very quick and efficient way and convincing the examination unit that they are also benefactors um then they're also you know staying orders in this and so if there's no existing law preventing you from doing it it's just political risk these are always ways to organize an overcome the political risk and even if there is a law that prevents you from doing it you can always ask your friend to come to this national development council website and go to this this platform economy as well as others suggestion and this is very interesting because currently minister of channeling head of the national development council has this idea of um legal interpretation uh and this new principle says that if there's ever a ruling that says something is forbidden for one particular case very good it must not extend to similar cases because we're not a case low country uh if there are attempts to make it a common case this interpretation should be abolished now if there was a interpretation for a common cases but actually the law and the regulations did not explicitly forbid it then this interpretation should be abolished and so um i've never really heard any time in taiwan's current history of a head of n dc having this legal opinion but this legal opinion is very useful for people who want to make innovations because all you have to do is challenge existing interpretations and convince your friend to go on this platform and say you know we want this regulation change because it's walking the way and the n dc now has the kpi of every other week they review all the different ministries and see how many interpretations they can adjust or abolish under this new principle so this is a a political climate that is very favorable to people who want to challenge existing laws and regulations so please make full use of it and also if it's just about procurement um minister chen also asked the the pcc the public procurement committee to relax the discretionary procurement it was like a hundred k taiwan dollars one was the the discretionary budget level but now it is i think uh slender is already one million handy dollars so the discretionary procurement has been a tenfold increase in how you can use the procurement like at your discretion and also um we have a new procurement law of amendment currently in the legislation we expected to pass this session because it's not priority that says if you want to make the preferential bit a bit based on value rather than the lowest price bit you don't have to write an explanation anymore you can just say okay this case is good for a value based bit and so all these combined this interpretation of principle this new procurement threshold and the new procurement law says that it can be much more free with your procurement decisions and value based procurement than the original procurement law so that is one of the changes that we put in and so yeah i understand that the public service is restricted in law and i'm very happy that i don't have to suggest to the premier of this problem because our chief commissioner of n dc is a public servant with very long experience in the public service so she really knows which are the real pain points that prevents the service from innovating and so she's been very systematically to try to relax these things and if there are parts that you think she and her team missed please ask your friend to go to the national public council platform and let them know about it our colleague xia mei li will have to know what role should the government play in the social innovation process in my personal view and it is a person of you we should play the role of problem solvers of the people who are problem solvers themselves and this is a role that we can play in a sense that it is a role that nobody else can play because as the previous question asked all those issues blocking the innovators from innovating many of them are regulatory nature many of them are interpretative principles of the law and the local governments and the central government may not not always align and even in the local government the barrier of economic development and the barrier for social affairs may not always agree and so our government what we can do is to assemble a cross ministry cross burial cross-level team that goes around all the time that has this internal connection and that knows when something happens who to ask so our platform the s e that p this that tw lists other resources that all the ministry's office to all the social innovations will list registered social enterprises be their co-ops charities or companies we took those services provided by social enterprises that let us learn more about social innovation and social inclusion and put them into procurement our common procurement and we also have counseling services as well as as i mentioned the public touring that you can review the transcripts and hold me to account in the sense that you can go through all the questions asked in the previous rounds and get a response and the full transcript of what has been asked by the social innovators and finally you can review the list of services and goods that are demanded or required or supported by 10 different ministries so what sustainable development goals that they are trying to do this year around and what kind of resources that you know people from the social innovation sector can make use of and all this we do it in the responding to need kind of way so everyone can go through all these programs and such as changes and many already do and so all this is updated every two weeks and so again i think we need to be a circle in which people can join rather than a arbiter like a line that that's an extension from the civil society if we can stick to the role of a field that people can open and transparently find their common purposes and find the common values that they care about then we can rest assured that the trust problem can be solved because people will trust us as the keeper of the field but not in any particular stake our colleague Cho Yu-shun would like to name in order to innovate the social industries of social enterprises how can we public services apply innovative ideas into our governmental and official systems that's a great question i think one of the pittest role here is just to try to demonstrate that people can and will use innovative tools if it saves our time if it reduce our risk and if it shares the credit so as a concrete example um this year as i mentioned we engaged with 35 interns they're all young people they're all university or college level people and they're all around why we do this by combining the internship program offered by the youth development agency and the teleworking directive as prepared by the ministry of labor previously nobody really connected these two together but we did and once we did we did something that's great because it engaged more young people and the young people can engage more young people on our behalf and so what really happens is that we have this website called read.pittest.pw that engage anyone who has anything to say about government websites and who want to collectively debug the government websites and we announce them and then we select them we interview them and then we start the plan and after we started the plan we asked all these people to look at all those government websites like all 508 of them and file bug reports and one part of them one third of them look at those bug reports and then fix them and so for the public servants involved this is the first time that young people here are not complaining they're fixing the problem they come up with selections they're not just coming up with complaints and for the young people who specialize in public administration design or engineering it is their chance to prove their worth to the public servants that they can contribute to public service and engage in the public design process and after we did this pilot run last year of 15 people this year we do 35 people about five of them are mentors from the previous year and so we don't even manage the program anymore all this progress managed by the people who enrolled last year and so the student now take care of the students and we don't have to do anything now this year we take care of all the mobile phones and websites that are responsively designed for the government websites and services and after those young people fill in their suggestions we then collect those suggestions into the government digital service principle and the government digital service principle again it is publicly uh calibrated on the joint platform expresses the idea that we should value user experience across discipline, mechanism, sufficient resources part of the accountability, the importance of user studies, inclusion, multi stakeholder and most importantly the front line public service staff are also users their ideas should be included in the very beginning when we're designing the system for their experience as well as other peoples and the young people suggested that we need someone like a minister to absorb all the risk and so this is not found in many other countries government digital service plan this basically says once we have a cross-discipline cross-departmental team we need someone to absorb the risk and so this is we'll soon after a couple months become an official regulation in the digital class plan and after that the NVC as well as the MIS people of all the different cities will adjust their procurement and their system building regulations based on the government digital service principle and the GSP as I mentioned is done by taking those innovations that we participated with those teleworking interns all around Taiwan working at their school working at their home and collaborating co-designed this experience and this principles so I don't have time to go through all the principles but as many of you can see it included many of the best practices intended not to just simplify the citizens experience but also make our life better to make our life not to be locked in by vendors to make our life easier by having the public doing the creation process with us instead just us for them so this is one of the core ideas in the government digital service principles and so all these are innovations but once they turn from innovation to production what we need as I mentioned is a way to translate this into regulations and to policies and that's our core competence we still do that but we source the innovation from many different forms from strangers on the internet from young people who are in our internship program from people we don't have normal in connection with from people who snowball and invite other people as long as we keep up level playing field and turn their suggestion different planes into productive suggestions we can include more and more people in the early stage brainstorming process as long as we make it clear it's brainstorming nobody will really flip the table or look at the process we're just brainstorming our colleague college would like to know if the social enterprise we're so efficient why are we still working yeah well as as many of you know my personal a political belief is that of anarchism and I say it in English but in the local culture it is more like Daoism which to me is the same thing right so the idea very simply put is that I never issue one single direct combined to anyone against their will anyone I work with I work with voluntarily and if people say no that's not the best idea I'm always yield to them they could be my colleagues they could be my you know friends they could be people in the civil society it doesn't matter I'm a minister of the sub portfolio meaning that I don't really have anyone reporting to me all you of you are our colleagues and to me I'm not your superior so the idea very simply put is that if you find me useful in reducing the risk if you find the technology useful in saving your time you're always free to take it and learn with it and if people complain about it you can always say nice logical idea which is crazy but on the other hand I'm around so that people can focus on each other's contribution more and I make it much more apparent for example by the joint platform where very soon people like in a week or two everybody can see all the work that you're doing and all the projects that all the different ministries are working on and all the procurements all the standings all the KPIs everything right so this idea is that anything that a national development council can see on their gpm nut we're making it completely public we've already made it public for a year for the administrative level young one call project but starting next month we're making everything public and for for doing this there was a lot of fear a lot of uncertainty and doubt among our participation office at network they were like people would just flood the system we'll get one call by everybody not just two people and and so on but it turns out people really care and they make useful contributions and they only have to answer the question once they don't have to answer the question one million times from you know the MPs the superiors and whatever they can just provide a URL there's one example that I really like to use is the kingman bridge example so this has been already public for more than a year now and this looks very reasonable right this is a serious project it's a monthly reported and so on as a you know engineering project but if you look at a cumulative spending it looks like this but it is cumulative it should not increase it should never decrease that's what cumulative means late just gross right so this picture is very interesting from a KPN perspective so so there's someone a guest anonymous asked a very useful question now their spelling is is not perfect but everybody can understand what the question is trying to say even though the spelling can use some proof but I mean the the administrator here made a really good response I'm sure that they have already answered this to the members of the parliament or their superiors or the control unit or the national government council or the board of science and technology or the PCC there's like five different kind of people who can ask you this kind of questions you have to answer it it's very tedious but now you when you answer it publicly next time anyone can just google it people in control unit they send me this private email over a PTT saying that I'm making your life much easier they don't have to to to um harass to to trouble the public servants so much because they can just engage in this public Q&A around a specific budget item and we do have pretty good moderators you don't get many trolls here so we don't over consume your time the petitions used to consume a lot of public servants time but now we only ask your opinion of rejection or not after there's one thousand petitioners so we're improving the process and now the participation office actually is confident enough so we can publish everything here on the joint platform and once we do that again we'll take that innovation into production and reorganize the social trust based on this new organization so the government always plays the role of taking those innovations and making it very well known not just in Taiwan but internationally every time I go to international conferences I went to like four United Nations meetings now you know four meetings all I talk about is sustainable development goals because it is what the entire world is concentrated on and all our contributions all those publicly accountability digital governance social innovation system is right there in SDG 17 because the 17th SDG is about connecting the different forces in the society to work in a way that improve on the SDGs without sacrificing any other SDGs and so all the system is very useful to other democratic countries as well and so we're making the digital governance part of our diplomatic direction of this year and so this is great because everybody is working on this so a lot of efforts we can also incorporate internationally so our presidential backathon one of the winning teams is now endorsed by the New Zealand government and they can join to improve the civil service life in New Zealand or they can connect to the network around Asia and having people gather and join this May and to share the social innovations translate everything to English and then to spread these ideas around Asia as well as bring more power and energy into here so at the moment the government still plays a role but as I said it's always an anarchist role that just connects people that is like water good for everything and go to the lowest of places and then find a way and then I think that is the role that we should play as water as the pool of where the creativity can flow in. Colleagues, I just want to let you know just for fun combining both things to make new things I have a pen I have an apple connected sustainable development goals really the pineapple guy recorded a hilarious video for the United Nations sustainable development goals and yeah it's like I have a pen I have a textbook combining education I have a pen and an apple connecting no poverty or whatever right so so it is actually a pretty hip thing to promote this new and sustainable development goals using whatever art form possible. Our colleague Jujung Beulek there is that activity associated with very quite a timely intervention of government to ensure the quality of implementation again a great question so in our current company law if a social enterprise choose to be incorporated as a company they face the challenge of the current company law that says it's first article the purpose of the company is to make a profit but now the new company law as well as a reinterpretation of the existing company law signed by the Ministry of Economy affairs now says no but you may also be clear that your social environmental purpose is as important as making a profit or even more important as making a profit you can say your company founding document your job your charter saying all the revenues all the profits we make will completely be reinvested into the social purpose and the shareholders never get anything more back than the original investment they make this is why we call the UNUS style professor UNUS style social business and so if a company want to do that they can now legally do it they legally can just declare this in their founding documents and the Ministry of the Economy affairs provides a public open data listing of any company that chooses to signal to their investors to their market to their stakeholders that they have a social purpose and they're committed to it in this and that way we don't say they have to publish their public benefit impact report every two months or three months or half a year or a year they say to themselves in the charter we don't say that they have to provide all their revenue half their revenue 30 percent of their revenue back into the social mission again they can declare that themselves and the independent analysts can ask the data layers and say okay how many companies are there now committed to the social purpose and we're now also making it possible so that charities even share on fire even association volunteer associations they can also form sub companies as long as they control it through the closely held business company law through special voting rights through its mission lock so the purpose of the charity must be the same as a purpose of the company and finally the purpose document the public beneficial report must be published together so if they have the same mission they retain control and then publish the accountability report together then we say okay this volunteer association can own a sub company and engage in the investment market and so all this again is intervention but this is intervention to make more room this is not intervention to point to any direction this is intervention to say now choose your own direction but make sure everybody knows about it transparently so this is the kind of intervention that we intervene every other week actually and every week during the office hours so our play that way you will like you know about social issues such as homeless people around the park or subway do you think how to create social innovations to solve it yes we do there are many social innovations around creating a place for the homeless people solidarity for homeless people and so on well you're you're welcome to look at having our database but in the original example that they showed that a good example actually their pattern of empowerment is the do you a flavor and do you a flavor specialize in social solidarity of homeless people and connect it and into the larger social supporting system and so yeah you're you're welcome to to connect to these people and understand how they do it i'd like to tell is short anecdote and president storm when i look to redo my hair i choose the only social enterprise haircuts alone but that's public advertised they're called hao jian cai cai is the talent and this social enterprise hao jian cai is very interesting because the the person who washes my hair she is from hainan and she said she learned about hair haircut she said hair stylist by train but she only looked she looked at all those different human resource requirements 104 but she only sent her resume to this one single social enterprise so if this one turns turns her down she's not going to type a right but she went to type it for the social enterprise because it is more like a cooperative all the people who wash hairs get weekly trainings and gets promoted to designers once they pass a independent verification of their capability and they get a good career path and it's better than the labor law but in in addition to that they work with homeless people they work with migrant workers they work with people who cannot very easily fit with the community and do haircuts for them they make their hair styles so that they feel more confident and while they're waiting for their hairdo to be completed in exchange they ask them to tell their stories and swap the stories around and share the stories to the community participants so that people get to understand each other more so it is for a social solidarity purpose and for this for this social mission she goes to Taipei and joined this team of social entrepreneurs so any kind of business could be turned into a social enterprise if you think in terms of what's the common good and what's the common purpose and so our colleague who would like to know how do we support social innovation to be sustainable in truth most of the innovations fail and we can support sustainability by praising people who fail and share their stories this is the idea of the triple button line entrepreneurship some of you may have heard of the idea of unicorns in startup world it means that someone a company that is valued very expensively by the investor market but in the Silicon Valley the unicorns are not really very trendy anymore because unicorns through their quirk sometimes create externalities that create social problems so there's a new bunch of entrepreneurs that brand themselves as zebras and zebra bama right has the white part that is the for-profit part but the black part that is for the hidden for the social good part so it's a kind of in and young play so it is a enterprise with a social purpose it's just one kind of business for the benefit of all in addition to the benefit of shareholders and so these zebras have we have a way to engage with them actually more than we have with unicorns we are now having some way to engage with unicorns and happy for that but we actually as public servants we have our social missions too we have our annual social missions we have our kbis to worry about but if the zebras in their black part overlap with our mission for the year then we can collaborate them in a lot of different ways and actually that's the list that i show you all the different ten ministries listed explicitly what kind of zebras they're trying to work with and that creates a positive feedback loop and that creates trust so that even if they fail as long as they show why they fail they can be funded again and the national fund the SBIR SBTR SIR fund will all make room for people who fail repeatedly but they have generally a good idea for social innovation so that's the current answer how the government use big data to find out who needs help this is great i really think by the presidential hackathons final round we will have a lot of very very good examples but now you can already look at one any of those 100 cases and think about next year's application actually we want you to participate and so there's there's many here that use big data that use data analytics to propose a way for people to engage each other more effectively through visualization through data integration and things like that so yeah i don't have time to go through the 100 cases the sophisticated side at least half of it involves using data analytics big data or not to identify the people who we can focus more with our resources in the public service our colleagues channel would like to know what are their social innovative enterprise here in Taiwan we'll be glad to learn some does making money not important well making money is the instrument right it is the means to sustainability if you lose money for a very long time you're not sustainable anymore so making money is the the tool the instrument for sustainability but it is not the goal in itself the goal again is to achieve a social mission to have a social impact and if you would like a tour of the current social enterprises that we know about again in secarpitas.tw you can go to this registry and look up in any of those service areas and in any of those fields in any of these districts or counties and discover what they care about and what they want to do and so yeah i would not make any special advertisement for any one of them but suffice it to say that they spun all parts of the country and all parts from urban to rural and all parts of the sustainable development goals so yeah welcome to look at look them up at secarpitas.tw i think we did that the government's vote so and finally a anonymous question there are many open source organizations how is public service interact with them to improve government and open source and geo efficiently so open source broadly speaking means that we give up part of our copyright so people can copy our work and change it without asking for permission this is a legal way of saying you can make changes without asking me there are many different kinds of open source personally i use the creative command zero which means there's you don't even have to say it's my work you can take the one get away and say it's your work and i will never sue you for anything so this is completely abandoning of copyright but not many communities do that by default many companies and communities says you have at least to say who was the original of the it's like citation right but then you can make anything on it and so the way to engage open source organizations is always find the community behind it like in the gov zero community we have a lot of hackathons and so every week we meet every wednesday evening at the social innovation lab here in Taipei so you're welcome to join us and you can find all our meetings and gatherings of any open source organization and many of them will have an online channel so you can also come by and say hi but always i think just participating in those large hackathons in those large meetings like coast club or the mobcom or many other conferences is a great way to start making friends and because open source really is just an excuse for us to make new friends and to have delicious food and so just if you're just doing it for the technology and missing the social connection and the food while you're missing out a lot and so yeah i will definitely encourage people to build personal connections in addition to technological connections so um our colleagues during shiwan maybe we'll drop by some wednesday to the daf uh yeah so please drop by and let me know and how do you think about the relationship between the customer's big data to improve social service quality now this is a great question um for me personally there is no problem of using the aggregate data or statistics data for social grid what is a problem of course is to use somebody's data without them knowing about it so in my mind public use of data the open data and the data will have my private um issues and details these are two distinct concepts these two circles do not overlap so when you say big data i have always to to ask you do you mean a trend analysis based on statistics and data that could be open or do you mean you have some algorithms that must be run under raw data that contains my privacy if it is the latter part then i would ask you to publish the code to publish the algorithm and let the experts review that really it does not hurt people's privacy and anyone deserve to know when their personal data is being analyzed like this and so the data controller the ministry runs the code maybe publish it the result as statistics data but it must never just publish the raw data of personal information for me it is a idea of right of freedom from surveillance from co-action from censorship it is an idea of negative liberty so the idea is that our privacy is a right and it is not some asset or some data that could be treated as property we we saw some people who want to treat this as property and the Cambridge Analytica thing everybody knows about it now so if you think of personal data as property that is what you get and if you think of your privacy as a kind of freedom from temporary then it is a much more sane way to treat each other's data and so in the personal privacy protection very soon we will be party to the APAC countries cross-border privacy protection rules and we're also looking into joining the european union's GDPR system and so that will allow for a much more coordinated way to handle the privacy issues across those different areas so i will take one final question how can government instill more policy to encourage social innovation in my mind i work with social innovators all the time and they ask the government not to think for them but think with them with the sandbox rule again in our work as public servants if somebody comes with a very good innovative idea but it potentially could be interpreted as against the law or if we approve it we have to resin document and get and signatures so it's the cost of time maybe a couple days of time to allow this innovation but if we just reject it it costs us nothing we just say no right so this is less time consuming but with the fintech sandbox with the ai and vehicle sandbox with new sandbox rules this relationship changes even innovation comes and you approve it as legal then it just costs you two or three days of time it's still time but you can spread it around with other innovators once you have social connection with them however if you reject it it will enter a sandbox and then you have to spend half a year with this idea and write more paperwork and so the sandbox laws is fundamentally changing the attitude of first the fintech community next to the ai community and more communities in regards with the members of the parliament and member in the public service because now it is actually easier if we can say what the law does not forbid is legal and it is actually easier for us to say if you really have to challenge a law we'll do it publicly through a sandbox instead of doing it in the black market or in the green market so with that I hope bar social innovators don't have to register their company at payment violence they don't have to place their computers at the public seat they don't have to hide their transaction records in the dark web they don't have to invent you know very weird private blockchain protocols in order to evade taxation and auditing with this kind of new policy that we co-create with social innovators we hope that they come to the light and co-create a regulatory environment with us Thank you very much. Thank you very much Mr. John. Thank you for your excellent sharing. Let's give a warm applause again. Thank you. Greetings to the end. Thank you for your participation today. Please remember use an ACSF to fill in today's questionnaire. Our next class will be on April 12th. Okay some colleagues you'll use your English name to to stop your English question today. We are looking for all these colleagues Michelle, Elmer Wong, Wenxin Zhang, Jay