 Kia ora kato, mā maia harimai. Welcome, everybody, and welcome to this month's EHF Live Investor Session. Edmund Hillary Fellowship, as a few of you actually now know, is a collective of entrepreneurs and investor changemakers who want to make an impact globally from Aotearoa, New Zealand. This informal session, just to clarify, Aaron is actually a hybrid. He is actually an entrepreneur and an investor fellow, so it's great that we've actually got an investor that has actually been out there and done it. It's really awesome. So the interview today is done in a way that you should be able to leave the 60 minutes and know a little bit about Aaron as a person, as opposed to just what he wants to invest in and do, and also feel connected enough that you can actually contact him directly and he will respond back to you. So it's a warm informal session and that you can take this information out to the people that you actually work with directly. So Aaron Bird, he is from Penza. It's a little organisation. I'll let him explain what it does, but they only kind of invest in a three organisations at a time and they build them up. But I'll let Aaron talk about that. But firstly, we're obviously recording. So if you don't want your face on the screen, then just put your beautiful avatar up instead and stay muted unless you're going to ask a question. There'll be heaps of time for Q&A and because it's a small group, you can unmute and ask those questions. Or if you want to, you can just pop them in the chat and I can ask those on your behalf. But first off, Aaron, just tell us a little about who you are as a person and what makes you sort of join EHF? Yeah, maybe I'll start with me a little bit and then I'll talk about the New Zealand connection on EHF. I kind of know when I was going to be an entrepreneur in my whole life, when I was... My parents have like bunny stories when I was a little kid. Like when I was an eighth grade, I used to order pizza to our school and sell slices of pizza. And so I would come home with like, you know, with my bag lunch and my mom packed having not eaten anything because I'd eaten pizza and then I had like money in my pocket selling slices and went to Mexico and I was like 14 with my family for two weeks and like traded jewelry amongst the merchants and stuff. So anyway, I've kind of always known that I was going to be an entrepreneur and started my career as like a peer scientist and software developer and then eventually started my first company about 10 years ago. And on the personal side, I've got a family, two of sons, a two-year-old and a five-year-old. And my wife actually has a lot of connectivity to New Zealand, which is kind of how we first started, you know, the EHF process. My wife visited New Zealand when she was a kid and her best friend moved to New Zealand and so she went and visited her and so had this like strong connection and her parents actually, my wife's parents lived in Australia for a little while as well. And so my first trip to New Zealand was about a year and a half ago. So actually right before COVID hit, we went to New Zealand for two months. So we went starting December of, was it 2019 through the end of January 2020. And my wife had obviously been a lot, but it was my first trip and we just really liked it and we were kind of a phase in our life where we had been talking about maybe living abroad for a while and we had done a lot of traveling in 2019. And so, you know, as part of that, we like New Zealand so much that I started looking into like, what are the options of spending more time there, getting a visa or permit residency and found EHF and it happened to be aligned with kind of right when the COVID-19 7 and 8 applications were happening. So I applied and so that was kind of the genesis of the connection and we're obviously in the US right now and excited to get back into New Zealand and spend some time there with the borders and everything. But ironically, we left in January, January 28. So like COVID had hit and we knew it was in Wuhan and it was actually in the US, but I think it hadn't been reported yet or something. But we left New Zealand, we left, you know, the best country in the world to be in for COVID came to arguably the worst, although maybe there's some newer countries that are worse, but definitely a top three worst countries. Anyway, we've lamented about that a lot of the last year and a half. Maybe we should have just stayed in New Zealand. Yeah, right. You cannot look backwards, can you? But you can look forward. And the thing is, you'll be doing so much work with the SAS community and New Zealand companies from afar. It's been amazing what you've actually done without having to come back into the country. So three areas that we're going to look at with Aaron today. Obviously, he's a SAS guru, right? So we can have lots of questions. You can ask him as much as you want there. And he's really willing to, a lot of value and connections and help you out in that way. That's his kind of big offer at the end of this session. He's willing to help as many companies and that is sort of in his well-health. Another area that he's in is crypto. So this is an area that he's exploring and then also carbon. So he's got Tim on the call here from Energy Bank that he is working with as well. So those are three of his hot areas. So tell us a little about your SAS experience so that people who don't know, you can actually get the full breadth of, where your skills lie in that area. Yeah, so I've been building software in the cloud for whatever, the last 20 years or so. I was a developer for a while and managed development teams and actually switched over to the product side of the world when I took a job at Microsoft in 2007 and which was what moved me to Seattle. And I left Microsoft in 2011 to start a company called Visible. And so we did marketing attribution. So again, it was a SAS product for marketing teams to measure the efficacy of their marketing. And so I started that company and ran it for about eight years and then sold it to Marketo. And then I spent about a year and a half at Marketo running global products there. So basically I've been in the SAS world for a long time and I've been building in the cloud for a long time. And I think the big takeaway for me, particularly coming out of an engineering background, is that in B2B it's really, the main thing is about go-to-market. So I think there's a lot of great products out there, but I think the winners end up being the ones that win at the go-to-market side. And as an engineer and a product person at heart, that hurts me to say because I always feel the best product should always win. And that's what I believe should be the case, but it ends up not necessarily being the case at the marketplace. So anyway, that's something I quickly learned running Visible. And so spent probably the last 10 or 15 years really going deep on the go-to-market side. And how do companies go-to-market? What are the different models and how can you win there? I was also really fortunate at Visible and at Marketto. We worked with one of the world's best B2B marketers because we were selling into them. We helped them do marketing at Marketto and help them measure marketing at Visible. And so not only did I learn a lot from the experience of running Visible, but also got to networked with just some amazing go-to-market folks and got to see what works, whether you're selling to the enterprise or SMB or different motions. And so I think that that's the area where I think I can help the most. And I think it's the area where early stage software companies need the most help is around go-to-market and distribution and how do you scale. Because again, most of them, most of the founders have that kind of product DNA and they know what they need to build. But how do they distribute that and get it out there cost-effectively? And so that's where I've done about 70 or so angel investments over the last 10 years. And that's what I've found is, especially in early stage companies, the place I can help the most is just go-to-market, both the strategy and even also recruiting and how do you hire great people? Cool. Anna's just put a question here. What was your biggest challenge? It was a ball. And then she's got a bracket. I love a good funnier story. Yeah, wow. Yeah, I think I made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot from them. I think that I stumbled a lot hiring the right sales leader. I actually hired and had to let go two different sales leaders and the third one was the right one at it. But that took, I mean, honestly, it was a span of three or four years. And I think if you... I came again out of an engineering background. And so if you're a salesperson or you're a sales leader, you know what sales leaders look like. But as an engineer, I did not. And this was the first time that I had really interacted much with sales and marketing was running visible. And so I think it took me a while to figure out that profile. Even mediocre salespeople are still good at selling themselves. And so it's hard to kind of sift through the noise and do that recruiting, or at least it really was for me. And so that was a challenging area. And quite honestly, it affected the business. We ended up doing well and got growth back on track after I got the right leader, but there was kind of this middle part of the company where we were growth started to slow and it was all because we didn't have the right leadership in place on the sales side. And I think that was something that was really hard. And I see other early stage companies struggle with this, particularly when the founders come out of a product or engineering background because it's hard. And I definitely, hopefully not everybody stumbles twice like I did in the road, but that was tough. Thank you. That's really good to hear actually. And it is something that does happen a lot with the New Zealand sales companies. And I think it's sometimes it's almost like lack of people in the market or lots of people are recommending people and it's not necessarily the right fit. So tell us a little bit more about Penza. What's your intention with that firm? Because it's a really different model that you've got going on there. Yeah, like you said, it's kind of a hybrid between investor and entrepreneur. And so I've raised a little bit of capital and the plan is to be very focused and do maybe three companies over the next five years and not just invest, but also spend a lot of time obviously with each of them. So we started our first company at the end of last year called Inflection. And so I'm spending a lot of time right now on that. And we'll start probably one more company in the next year or two. And we can either get involved with founders or a very, very early stage where we can actually start the company as well. So it's kind of like just my time in capital with a very, very concentrated approach. It's very different than kind of the venture model of making lots of bets. So describe some characteristics theme of what kind of founder you'd be looking for, because it's obviously a deep commitment that in the risk as shared is quite high. So what are you looking for then in the type of company or founder that you'd take into this program? Yeah, I think so very early stage where I think I can help the most. And then something most likely be to be SaaS is going to be the area that PMs is going to have at the most value. And going after a big market, I think is the other one. That's kind of the criteria. But I personally can engage with folks in lots of different ways. So I can write angel checks too or I can just help. And so my model with New Zealand so far has been just to meet with as many people as possible and see where I can be helpful. And so I've done lots of calls and I'm getting close to maybe joining the board of advisors for a company. But I think when I've written some checks in fact investing in Tim's company, Energy Bank, I'm not at all an expert in ocean energy storage but excited to be on the ride and hopefully could help Tim a little bit with fundraisers like that. So, but yeah, I think the, you know, pianda because you're doing so few, like the engagement is very selective and it's got to be kind of a perfect fit. But I think the best way to engage with me is just to reach out and I'm happy to meet with folks and see where I could be helpful and maybe that's a small angel check or maybe that's something, you know, more kind of a deeper engagement with pianda but would love to talk to early stage folks in New Zealand. So just going to go deeper on that. I just want a little bit more detail on is it, are there verticals that you wouldn't go down or are there particular verticals that pianda would be really interested in? Like just to sort of give people an idea unless you might get like a hundred of these things coming at you and you straight away know that those aren't in your wheelhouse? Yeah, I think B2B SaaS and then like crypto NFTs, those would be the two areas that that I'm the most engaged in. I have a passion for kind of carbon stuff, which, you know, so I've written a few angel checks there, but I think that if, you know, to kind of think about two verticals, I think B2B SaaS and then kind of things around crypto or NFTs are the areas that I can probably, you know, I'm the most interested in talking to folks. Cool. Do we have any questions from the floor if you want to start thinking of some or if you want to put your hands up? We can go, we can start doing that now. So with the, you've already spent quite a bit of time looking at the New Zealand SaaS market with Callahan. So you participated in a couple of the workshops there. So the actual founder one and I think all the investor one and the director one. So just sort of give us a little bit of a feedback on how you felt that process went and what learnings that came out of it for you about the New Zealand SaaS market? Yeah, well, I think first of all, kind of that thing we were talking about while people were gathering, you know, coming from the U.S. just as really refreshing how much the government in New Zealand is actively helping, right? So with Callahan and all this other stuff, I just think it's great. So I think one takeaway for me was just that there's a lot of there's a lot of effort and resources to and genuine interest to help companies, especially early stage companies, which is great. I think the biggest challenge, you know, New Zealand like any ecosystem. So I live in Seattle, for example, and so I've watched the Seattle ecosystem start up ecosystem grow over the last 15 years. And it's kind of an extension of Silicon Valley, but it's still, you know, in and of itself, its own physical ecosystem. And I think New Zealand is a lot like Seattle kind of a few years ago or something right where it's still growing. And I think most I think there's a kind of a playbook and I think Brad Feld and the Foundry folks have written a lot about this. But, you know, there's a few kind of key pieces that you need for an ecosystem to grow. And and one of the biggest ones is talent, right? And just and not just lots of developers and lots of technical talent, but but also senior talent. Like, you know, we talked about hiring the wrong VP of sales, right? And so how do you how do you know what the right one looks like and how many are there and how many of them are recruitable and stuff like that. So I think that's, you know, and that there's nothing new there that's not that's not that insightful. Like, hey, we need more great talent and more great senior talent. But I think the more New Zealand can do to track those folks and, you know, the faster that will help kind of snowball the ecosystem. So Dave has asked this sort of question, which I was hoping to sort of get more from you as well, actually, Erin is on the B2B says because it's pretty broad, right? Are there any particular areas that are of interest to you? Honestly, I mean, I think any I'm spending a lot of time on companies that that are leveraging product-led growth as a motion. So companies, for example, that have a free trial or a free version of their product where the product itself is a important part of the funnel or an important part of their go-to-market strategy. I'm spending a lot of time there, but I think I can be helpful for any any SaaS company that's selling to a business because in the end, there's only a few go-to-market motions or ways to go to market that can work. And, you know, regardless of you're selling to, you know, kind of solo entrepreneur accountants or you're selling to the Fortune 500, you know, across, you know, market size or across company size or industry, you know, it's really, there's just a few ways to do it. And so I think I can be helpful. If you're selling to a consumer, it's a little bit different. You know, so B2C, I think is, you know, maybe not as much my expertise unless, you know, if you're selling to an accountant that's a, you know, a one-person show, it might look more like a B2C, but in the end, you're selling to a business. So, yeah, I think anything really, any B2B SaaS, like I can be helpful in regardless of kind of the industry or the target customer. OK, so that kind of answers those question-gone issues like how tolerant are you of any B2C aspects of a B2B gig? Yeah, I think as long as most B2C ends up being not as monetised, right? So if you're selling a product or if you're going to market and advertising is your business model, then it's, I'm probably not a good fit. Or at least I'm, you know, I'm going to be less helpful. If in the case of like, drop-backs you're selling a service, right, that someone pays for to a consumer, I guess that's where it gets a little blurry. But if you're selling SaaS on a subscription basis, which ends up being mostly B2B, I think that's a really good bet for me. Good. I like it how you are very clear about what you can and cannot do. That's actually very useful because when, you know, last thing that people need is to kind of like, oh gosh, you know, you're not my right person. So it's great. So Anna has got a question here. You talked about helping companies hire good people. So what are the top tips for hiring well, especially sales folk that's top of mind for Anna at the moment? Yeah. I think one thing that really helped me was this idea of kind of building a prototype in your mind of going and talking to a bunch of people that are the right fit, but maybe even if you can't recruit them, right? So I think like one thing I did with the sales hire, I leveraged my network through investors I had and more senior folks to just have conversations with great VPs of sales, even though, you know, I knew I wasn't going to be able to recruit them at the time, but the more you kind of talk to those folks and I would ask them questions like, how should I hire a VP of sales? How would you interview a VP of sales if you're a mid-radiant? And the more you meet and talk to people that are the right fit, even if you're not going to be able to get them yet, the more you'll start to be able to kind of picture who the right person is and do a better job interviewing. So I think that's one thing. I think for sales specifically, the stage of the company and the complexity of the deal are two really important kind of metrics when hiring a sales leader or even a salesperson. As a specific example, one mistake I made is I thought, I wanted the VP of sales or the head of sales at Salesforce, right? Like that person knows how to do sales. The reality is at a seed stage or a series A stage company, that person actually would not be a good head of sales. They would fail miserably because they're used to having a ton of support. Like they've got a whole product marketing team that's going to give them content and sales decks and they're used to being able to go higher sales people and pay them the highest market rate and all this kind of stuff that you can't do at an early stage company. And so I think for a sales leader, finding somebody who's gone through like whatever you're going to go do for the next 24 months, find someone that that is in a recent review here, right? That they just went from half a million of revenue to 20 million of revenue at some company that looks similar to you. And now they want to go do it again. Because what you also find is that those sales leaders, they know what they're good at too, right? And so they typically, they'll get to a point and they'll want to go do that same thing again. And that next phase is likely not going to be the right phase for them. And so you can find those people, when they're ready to leave and you might think, oh, well, why would they leave this company that's doing 20 million a year to come to my seed stage company? Well, they might do that because they want to go, they figured out they're good at that and they want to go do it again. So the stage of the company matters a lot because the amount of resources available and not really having product market fit yet and a sales leader that can navigate those waters, I think is really important. And then the deal size and deal complexity is really important. So if you're selling a deal that's $20,000 a year and it takes on average 90 days to close the sale, you want to get both salespeople and sales leaders that have done something similar. So if they were a sales leader selling 200k deals that was a nine month sale cycle, it's going to be hard for them to adjust to that faster sale cycle and smaller deals. And then also the other extreme, if they were working on like a boiler room of one call closes of 1k deals, it's going to be hard for them to stretch up to your 10k deal size. So I think that's important. And I think that's even more important than the industry. So this is again another mistake I made where I was like, oh, I need a sales leader and salespeople that really understand MarTech because that's what we're selling, smart dance technology. And the reality is that didn't matter what the deal size and the stage of the company and repeating those profile kind of fits for salespeople ended up working a lot better than knowing MarTech. A good salesperson can sell just about anything. It won't take them long to at least come up to speed enough on the domain to go sell it. So those are two things that again, I've got a starch issue for the wounds on figuring that out, but that's something that I would focus on. So Erin, just to expand on that just a little bit. One thing we have obviously is New Zealand companies often hiring the person in the US. So Ken, who's based down in Dunedin, big shit aren't they? What is the sort of package that a lead US salesperson would want? What would they be looking for? So it does depend on the stage too, but let's assume you're generating revenue, but you're still south of five million of air hours and doing that. So you're kind of like seed stage or A-stage. The problem is they make a lot of money, first of all, and there's just not a lot around that. It's hard to get around that. I think you can get sales leaders for, call it 250,000 to 300,000 US all in. And that's usually 50-50 base and variable. So if they're making 300,000, it's a 150 base and a 150 variable, and the variable is tied to obviously the sales results. And this is a VP of sales that could get you to 10 or 20 million of ARR. And then hopefully they keep going from there, but if not, then I think it's done well and it was worth it. And they're usually getting about 1% in equity. It could be, depending on the stage, it could be a little more or a little less. Like I could see three quarters of a point up to like 2%, something like that, depending on the stage. And one thing I always like to do, anyone I hire, whether it's a leader, individual contributor, whatever, I have a sliding scale of one side there's cash comp and on the other side there's equity. And you tell me where you want to fit. You can trade off cash comp for equity. And I think, so maybe you get a sales leader that's 200,000 all in and you give them a little bit more equity if you can't afford it. So I think you've got to be at the right stage to do that, obviously. Like I think most SaaS companies or the CEO has been doing sales. They've hired maybe one or two account executives, like individual contributor salespeople that are doing well. And I think that's a good time to bring in like a VP of sales. So obviously you can't afford 300,000 and there's just five of you kind of figuring it out. Like the CEO has got to be doing the selling at that point. Really interesting. And I can say, when music she said that number, so a lot of people's faces go ouch because that's way more than everyone else would be earning. So yeah, it's like, you know, like that's it, right? The salespeople are doing more than the CEOs. So, sir. I mean, I think one thing to look at that person that you're paying 300,000, they could get a job making 600 at, you know, a serious C company. Now, they're not going to get as much equity, you know, not nearly as much equity. And so that's the tradeoff. But great salespeople can make a lot. I mean, even that sales leader could go be an IC salesperson and make like a million a year at, you know, at like a snowflake or something like that. So, you have to pay up to get great folks. And sales is probably the most extreme example of that. So just want to go back to Nina's question. So what's the biggest problem issue or mistake you see with the go-to-market strategies in New Zealand's SaaS companies? I don't... How about this? I would say that I don't think there's anything in the go-to-market strategy to tell you about what's unique. I think one hard thing about New Zealand, it's like everything, it's a pro and a con, right? So one thing that's great about being in a market of 5 million people is that you quickly start thinking about how do I scale, right? How do I leave New Zealand in my go-to-market? In the US, companies get to like 100 million a year and don't even think about international, right? And so I think that's a good thing because you get this scale mindset early in New Zealand and thinking about other markets. I think the challenge is that it can also mean that you get a little distracted. So I think focus is so important in early stage companies. And so I think like going New Zealand, Australia, a couple of countries in Europe and looking at the US, all of a sudden you're in five, eight markets with each is going to need their own go-to-market resources and stuff. So I think that can be challenging. And so I think thinking early about what is your strategy around markets and are you just going to jump to the US and it's like New Zealand, US and that's it? Or are you going to go kind of New Zealand, Australia gets a five or 10 million there and then kind of go further out? But I think I've seen some companies get a little distracted early. And so I think that's, you know, and again, the benefit is that you think about scaling and you think about localization and currencies and all these things a lot earlier, but it also means that maybe you can get distracted and end up in too many markets too fast. Oh, so one here from Neville Aaron. So what does early stage mean to you because is it going to be sort of go-to-market model and scale or because most of the New Zealand companies is trying to get the product market fit nailed? And obviously with your engineering background, is there a preference? I think it can be helpful for both, but probably if you've got some good early signs of product market fit, you don't have to have that much revenue, but I think having a strong thesis about the product and the market and why it's unique and who the customer is. Because again, I think earlier than that, it's really a, you know, the help needed is around product and, you know, I'm not a product expert in all of the industries and verticals, right? So I think my help there can get a lot more, I guess, more narrow focus. So I think having a good thesis around product market fit and some early customers and then, you know, early stage, I'd say goes up all the way to like $5 million, something like that of ARR. So kind of, you know, $1 up to $5 million, maybe is the range. I love this question. What's the weirdest company you've invested in or worked with? This is definitely going to be a story there. Yeah, I don't know. What's the weirdest? I mean, like I wouldn't, so Tim's on the call from Energy Bank. I wouldn't describe it as weird. So I don't want to like go across this, I don't call Energy Bank weird, but it's definitely the most unusual, you know, it's a team of less than 10 taking on the energy storage market, you know, through deep ocean energy storage. So I think that's, I like the, you know, just a huge vision and it's just such a crazy idea. So I think I might have to go with it. Although I'll go on record, it's not calling it weird, but just calling it maybe unusual or kind of far out there. Absolutely, if anyone wants to unmute and ask questions, please do as well. Don't feel you need to put them in the chat. Lily. Kia ora koutou. Hopefully you can hear me because I've just had my teeth at the dentist done. So hopefully I don't lisp too much. Kia ora, Aaron. Just a quick question. Look, I work with many Māori businesses where we're building tēnō rangatiratanga, self-empowerment through enterprise, through creating our own businesses. One of the dilemmas and I'll be really upfront with you here and to see what your thoughts might be, many of our, in particular, Māori businesses almost have a fear for the VC's investors at the moment because what tends to happen is that it's almost like an extraction mentality that the investors are coming to the Garden of Eden now, you know, New Zealand is a good place to be, but it's almost like grabbing the allblicks, grabbing the ones that have already made it through, taking them out to scale. Which, yes, that's a good thing. We need that. But where the dilemma lies is at the beginning stages. There are many marvellous grassroots businesses, great, more and more software developers, and so how we operate is more in the relationship building mentality initially. So in other words, you've got to create the juniors first, help nurture the juniors, get the water bottle past the oranges before they help work for them to get to that allblick status because then the trust is built so that you're not just about extraction scaling and it's not all about the bottom line, it's also about the impact that those investments create. So have you had any issues with that or is there, how much I quote our people to show that it's not just about extraction? Yeah, I think the... So is it about how to kind of attract investors and help or maybe help me understand a little bit more about the... So, Erin, a little bit more about the giving. So what is it that you, rather than traditional VCs that are coming in and they want that exit pretty quickly and taking a lot of stuff off the table with them so that they are maximising the benefit as opposed to the actual founders and the community that have come around, the Māori businesses or the community? And so it's what in your realm in New Zealand would you be doing to help out? And yeah, what's your sort of intention there? Yeah, I think I always come from all these things that's just like a help first, you know? So I think anybody I talk to, any entrepreneur I meet with, it's always just like, let's have a couple of conversations and let me see if I can be helpful. I think that's the right first stop for anything. So, I mean, I think there, and I think a lot of folks in EHF and a lot of mentors and investors come from that too. So I think maybe leveraging that and just trying to get as much help from different folks as possible might be, I don't know if that's the answer, if that answers your question or not, but Lily's a fellow, Erin, I should have said that at the very beginning. Yeah, Lily's a fellow from, might even be your cohort. Yeah. Sex, cohort sex. Yeah. Any other questions? Any other points, Erin, that you want to get across to the room? No, I think I'm excited to meet with as many kind of early stage entrepreneurs as possible. And so, particularly in like SaaS and crypto like we talked about. So I think that I've been doing as much as I can from afar and trying to like network with smart folks and connected folks. And so, hopefully what comes out of this is like, I get to chat with more entrepreneurs and see where I can be helpful. I think that's probably my, the biggest takeaway is just, I think one thing that's been really cool that I didn't know coming into EHF and everything is just that there's a hotbed of vertical SaaS in New Zealand. There's like a lot of, for whatever reason, there's a lot of SaaS companies focused on different verticals. And so, I've been meeting with a lot of those companies and there's probably a lot more that I haven't talked to yet. So maybe that's the biggest takeaway is to just, if you have people in your network where you think of folks, like feel free to reach out to me and do as many Zoom calls and hopefully get a beer at some point here in New Zealand with people in person. So do you want to put your email in the chat then for people? If that's the easiest way to get in touch through or whether you prefer any other social media, the ways where I think email is probably the best because this group gets to know you now. And then, and has also asked any other ways that we can help you, that the people here in New Zealand can help you for a far to make it easier for you? Yeah, I think that's it. I've been trying to network with angel groups and folks like that. So, like you and I talked about Serge earlier, I met with him and he was really helpful and I met with Richard Coon and the Marlboro angels. So, if you have other folks like that that maybe are not SaaS entrepreneurs but are well connected to SaaS entrepreneurs, I'm happy to meet with folks like that too. But just trying to get as connected as possible and learn about the cool stuff that people are doing. And so, I think that's probably my biggest ask and my only ask. That's good. Aaron, did everyone else, did your email address come through? Did anyone, did it come through to everyone else? Oh, sorry, hold on. I sent it. Yeah, and another question from Seuss is what's your favourite blog post or book at the moment? I just read Sapiens and I really liked Sapiens. I really liked that a lot. It's like the history of humankind, I guess. And I thought it was really enlightening. Yeah, so that's probably my most recent book that I was excited about reading. No, that's good. And just so, a lot of these people on this call are actually either investors or they are connectors into and work with a lot of those companies. So like Anna, for example, Ken, I know that's sitting there. Dave, who's also an investor and a connector and Seuss, obviously the chair of the Angel Association, got Nina up there, CEO of the Todonga Angel Group. So there's a huge group of people that connect you into those other SaaS companies in New Zealand. So that would be, I think the ask for Aaron is to connect him with some great people that he can have good conversations with and you yourselves feel free to ask Aaron any questions yourselves afterwards and connect with him. He's actually been very, very open and spent a lot of time with New Zealand companies from afar. So we can't actually wait for him to get in and so that he can have a beer or a wine. And yeah, it's good. And we'll get to see your little boys and meet your wife and come back. So it's great. So thank you, everyone, for the time and thank you, Aaron, for sharing your stories. It's great and it's hard when you first meet people to share from the heart, but it's great. It's good to know who you are. So thank you for everyone. And next week, we have Craig McGrale, who's going to talk about a fund for woman-led founders and companies. So that is next week on the 18th. But thanks, team. Thank you for coming. Thanks, Aaron. Thank you. Bye. Bye, Aaron. Bye. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.