 Humanity faces a lot of problems, smaller problems such as a dead battery on your telephone, but also bigger problems, so-called wicked problems. And Tobuque University offers the GMSI program, Global Management of Social Issues, and Global Management of Social Issues deals with wicked problems. And today we will talk about poverty, which might as well be the wickedest problem of the mall. How does it work? And most of all, what can we do about it? And we're going to talk with three people, and the first one is Rodrigo Reyes. He is from Peru. He's a first year student of the GMSI program, and while you studied in a lot of places, New York, Warsaw, Lima, and of course now here in Tilburg. The second one in the middle, Carolina de Wilde, Dr. Carolina de Wilde. She's from Belgium, and she's the Associate Professor of Sociology and the coordinator of the course, Wicked Problems 101. And she teaches on inequality, poverty, and comparative social policy. And last but not least, we have Adrian Rybke. He's a first year student from Germany. And his ambition, and I quote, is to build communities and networks to tackle wicked problems and to participate in a great transformation towards non-destructive ways of living on earth. Adrian, that's a big thing. Are you like the new messiahs? No, no, no. I've just, as I said, I want to participate. And I think to tackle those wicked problems and to find solutions, we all need to unleash our passions and gifts. And it's like about movements. It's about us getting together and doing it. And I just want to participate and contribute in that process. Well, so that's your passion, Adrian. Carolina, what is your passion for teaching at GMSI, at the GMSI program? Well, yeah, first of all, I like teaching for the GMSI program because it's about poverty and inequality. And it's like, it's what I'm most interested in. And it's also nice to be able to, you know, give my knowledge to the students. And I think what I particularly like about this program is that a lot of the students are intrinsically motivated. So they come to the Netherlands, or they are from the Netherlands, and they come to Tilburg to study. And they want to know more about it. So I thought the classes were very inspiring because they, they're just interested in it. And for a teacher, that's the nicest thing that you can, that you can achieve. So you've got the best students in the world. That people do not only come to have the sixth, but that people also want to have high grades and intrinsically interested in the topic. Nice. And your specialty or your point of interest is poverty. Yes. When did that start? I think, I think that's hard to say. I mean, I've always been interested in equal opportunities or unequal opportunities to start with. So I don't know, I've always had this interest. You're just a human being. Exactly, maybe. Yes. I just, I value social justice, I guess. Yeah. And you value it so much that you also were a member of Greenpeace? Yes. What did you do at Greenpeace? That's when I really was like, you know, 12 or 14 or something like that. We posted leaflets all over the village with my best friend. So we drove, we did, we literally did like the whole village. So we were chased by farm dogs and stuff like that. So you're an activist? That's something that we did. A very young activist. Rodrigo, well, you basically studied a lot of different places. Poverty, have you encountered poverty in one of those countries where you studied? Yeah, I think that the most direct example of poverty, you can get it in Peru, where a developing country, there's still a lot of poverty, especially in the interior. So I think that I've been acquainted with it. And that's why I would like to try to solve it. Try to solve it. Resolve it. Learn, learn things here, take it back to Peru and solve poverty there. Well, perhaps not solve it, but try to make it better. I will talk about that. How to solve poverty in a minute. First, let's start with wicked problems. Carlina, what is the definition of a wicked problem? Yes, that's kind of, it's not so easy, but basically there's a number of characteristics. And wicked problems are really about complex social issues. And because they're a social that makes it complex, I guess you could say. And they are characterized by a great level of uncertainty. And that basically means that it's already hard to know what the problem is, or to define it or to measure it. So we could say that's uncertain then, or if you devise policies for it, it's hard to know what the outcome of a policy will be, because you don't really know what how to deal with the problem exactly. So that makes it uncertain. And is there a solution to a wicked problem? Is it? Yeah, I think from all the different disciplines, there's a lot of solutions being formulated. It depends a bit what kind of discipline and what level political sciences looks at societies, for instance, and sociology or psychology looks at persons. So there's a lot of, you could say, part solutions in terms of how research can contribute to formulating policies. And, Adrian, what are different kinds of wicked problems that you discuss in lecture? We've got poverty, of course. But what are other examples? Yes, so now in the first year, we mainly had poverty and inequality. Next year, it will be about migration. And in the third year, it's really about, okay, what can we do now? What interventions can you do about wicked problems? And outside the course, we are, of course, discussing also like climate change and, and different other topics, other wicked problems. Well, now we're going to talk about poverty, ladies and gentlemen. And, well, why is poverty a wicked problem, Rodrigo? Well, as Dr. de Wilde said, well, because it's a very complex problem, because it is embedded in society. So you have, for example, different actors or different leverage points where you could tackle the problem. You also have a great degree of uncertainty, because you don't know if, as she said, if you create or try to tackle it with a policy, you don't know how that's going to end up in the future. So you don't know which, how do I say it? Perhaps you don't know where it's going to have more impact on what the effects are going to be. So the effects are immeasurable. They're usually transbandary. And also you have the problem of you have different ideologies. So perhaps you're liberal and you think that the market should take, should take care of this problem. Or perhaps you're more, more progressive and you tackle it through the welfare state, for example. Well, I hear a lot of things, the politics, the internationality of the problem. So, but in lecture, where do you begin, Adrian? What's the first thing that you do if you hear the wicked problem poverty? Yeah, yeah, we first had a look at the history. So how was poverty looked at and tackled throughout, throughout the times? And how that also changed? And then, well, what Rodrigo already said, like, what are the different ideologies? What are different measurements of poverty? Because that's where it begins. How do we define a problem? And that's how we kind of got closer to, okay, what is poverty about? And what kind of perspectives can you take on the problem? And what is your perspective on the problem? Where do you start? Oh, yeah, like if we go for ideological difference, what Rodrigo was saying, I'm very much, I find it quite ridiculous that we are on a planet of abundance, that we don't manage to distribute our resources and, and our wealth in a way that people are millions of people are not suffering. So, and I would say we have the means to do it. But there are simply also powerful interests, which are profiting from poverty as hard as that gets. And always when I see people on the streets with, with those empty eyes are kind of being devastated, I also always have like a strong empathetic reaction. And I'm like, what are we doing? So you really want to change it? But it isn't that easy to say, okay, we can just redistribute wealth. And then that's it. Carlini DeVildo? I guess, as any sociologist will tell you, every society has a certain level of inequality, right? And the bottom line really is how large do we let this inequality be? And another point is the people at the bottom, how work, how bad are they? Because you can have an unequal society where everybody's still quite well off. Or you can have, you can have an unequal society where people at the bottom are hungry, essentially. And really, oh, like, it's, if you have unequal distribution of resources, the people who have the resources usually have the power and try to keep the power. That's essentially how it's always been all over, you know, throughout history. So you need to redistribute in order to make sure that the people at the bottom have enough. Yeah. And so it's always a political poverty is a political choice. And we see in Europe as well that we've chosen over the course of the 20th century to build a big welfare state, which takes care of most people in a relatively adequate way. And you see, for instance, that in large welfare states, poverty rates are lower than in small welfare states. Yes. So the poverty is different in the Netherlands than, for instance, in Peru. But can you say that there are no poor people then in the Netherlands? Or how do you define? Well, you, it's, it's how you define it, I guess. Like, because you, you, you have absolute poverty, and you also have relative poverty. You could say that here people are, can be relatively poor because, because of context. But in Peru, I would say that there is much more absolute poverty where people cannot afford to survive. So but it then just changed the definition of poverty and the solution is there, right? Yeah, I think it depends also how you define basic needs. And that's also evolved a bit through history. And we started out with this concept of poverty, that basic needs are that you need to have enough to survive, right? But in a country like the Netherlands, you could also argue that a basic need is that you have enough to be accepted socially in society. And this is exactly so you can have a strict definition of basic needs, but you can also have more, you know, relative one. We all need Wi-Fi, ladies and gentlemen, we all need Wi-Fi. It's a necessity. Life would be very hard if you would not be able to afford it in the Netherlands, because it would be very hard to apply for an employment benefit, for instance. That's that's true. So I was plugging into this because now it's again about definitions and about this more scientific perspective. But when you ask me, is there poverty in the Netherlands, I can say like, I know a person here, I just met him on the streets. He's living in the forest. He was in the winter. He was there like freezing. When I met him on the streets, he was like, always tired, you know, and I tried to help him out with with money and whatever. But he doesn't have he doesn't have a flat. So that's also absolute poverty in a way like right among us. And that's where and that's where I agree with you. It's a political thing. And it's not only it's not only the state or the government, which is like doing policies, but it's really about us, I think, like civil society, trying to do something about it. And well, we know that you are trying to change it with by yourself, you know, helping this this man who lives in the forest who doesn't have a roof over his head. How can you change politics as a student of GMSI? What can you do about it? Well, I think like if you think I'm on my own, then your your potential to change something won't be that high. But I'm saying like millions of people and organizations and networks all over the planet are trying to tackle those problems in very creative ways by now. So you can just join there. I think that's would be the first thing because there are people doing that for all their life. And if you want to have an impact, look, look out for them and then try to try to fit in there. So you don't have to do it all by yourself. And how do these organizations change politics then? Because it's a political problem. We we we just heard. Yeah. And what do these organizations do to change the way people think? Yeah, the way politicians think. That's a that's a good question. I think like at the moment we have not two, but those bigger projects with like the foreign aid, for example, you go to a country in the global south and you just put out food packages or something, which kind of makes them dependent on you, you know, you have this dependency going on. And it's partly also, you know, corruption comes in and self interest of other states. But I was researching in the context of our course about like an organization which is taking a more empowering approach. So they are really helping the people to help themselves. And I think they're there. That's where it starts. If you get the people who are in poverty active to kind of help themselves and you facilitate that I still hear you saying how these organizations help the people. But how do these organizations change the politics because politics create poverty. But what do they do to change it upwards? Yeah, maybe somebody else has got an idea. For instance, I think voluntary organizations can also do lobby work. But then for that again, they need to know how to do that. So and as a scientist, you provide the data and the fact you provide the data and the facts. But if you'd study, for instance, political science, and you are international relations, then you learn to know how to do this, how to actually have try and have an influence. And what was your influence? Because of course, as you're the scientist on the table, and you research, you've done research, of course, and you've got data. What was the last thing that you've changed in politics? No, as a student, I was actually active in Greenpeace and with Oxfam, kind of helped to find, you know, one of the shops, Wiereltwinkels, where you sell stuff. But then it kind of, you know, I have a full time job and a family now. But yeah, anyway, I mean, my I'm kind of involved with the research that I do also, because I think it is worthwhile. And actually, the thing that I do is that academics often do not write for non academics. But if an organization asks me to write something about my research and simple language for, you know, a Dutch public or Flemish, because I'm Belgium or for the EU, then I will always do this. So that's how I try to contribute them. Yeah, that's actually, Of Adrian, sorry. Yeah, that's actually really good. Because when I came here, like my first months here, was like, you have this detached kind of scientific angle. And I was, I remember writing about people being raped in India. And you just have this, yeah, okay, what's the problem now? And I was like, Oh, like, and that's, that's really, I think one major flaw of science nowadays that they are not approaching, again, like the problems again, you know, like, you can write a 10, 10 paper, a 10 pages paper, and then have a policy advice. But that's not having that's not having a major impact on the problem. And because you have this separation of science and people actually doing something, we get really knowledge, which is just relevant for the scientists. And that's like, there I'm, yeah. So what is your advice? What is your advice for the future GMSI student? Always focus on the human side of science, always focus on the humans, or what it's about. sense what you're saying is correct, but it's very much you can make a choice and that yourself as a researcher and another student. Because I mean, my main interest is social change and how particularly welfare state change and how that changes the well being of people in those welfare states, you know, increase in homelessness, for instance. So as a researcher, even though you have this detached method, so to speak, you can still be involved by the choice of your topic, you do not have to study something that's not irrelevant in your eyes if you do not want to. So just follow the heart and do what what you can do to change for instance, this wicked problem poverty. And one thing about poverty and Adrian, it is related to a lot of other other wicked problems. For instance, migration, which people migrate because of poverty. We see that a new refugees is rising the climate change refugee. And so is poverty then the biggest wicked, wicked problem of them all? I don't know if you can say that, but it's really more about the interconnection and I have a I have a story for that. So I was like traveling and I was like in the night in Cologne, a German city at the at the train station. And I saw like this woman really again, really empty eyes and having a picture of her two children begging for money. So I was I was approaching her, giving her some money wanting to help out. And then you see like she was occurred. So you have the wicked problem of the political repression in the in the country where she's coming from. Then I hear behind my back, someone from Germany saying, Yeah, she has enough money, you know, like one of those statements which you more and more get. So you have the wicked problem of like, rising populace. And again, you know, and then I was talking to him. And so I approached him, like, why would you say something like that? And then he was like, Yeah, I'm a little bit disabled. And then I saw also his pain. And then you have poverty on his side, you have poverty on the side of the migrant, you have the migration, you have the political repression. And that's how they get together in a story. And then you're like in the middle of it, and trying to help out and understand and it's like, it is a lot. It is a lot. And then again, the question, where do you start if you if you want to solve such a big problem with all these wicked problems coming together? Where do you begin? I think it's like, start with yourself that you take a conscious decision of I will change something. And then you just look like what what are your passions like where you're going to. And then you you find up you ally up with other people. And there is one thing that you have started, which was you did something in Tilburg, you created the network. Yeah, we are part of transform Tilburg, which is like a kind of community organization. And we are trying to bring together different organizations working on different issues to learn from each other to get into action together, and facilitating that network in a way. Yeah. So you can really change something, ladies and gentlemen. And just a question because, of course, you guys are in a lecture room together. And in a lecture room, students ask questions to the teacher. And what would what kind of question would you like to ask Carolina regarding poverty? What was the question you'd ask? Well, I was a bit surprised or by by by the statement sorry, the fact that you said that poverty is a political political problem. It's just a political decision. And that that's actually very, I don't know, I don't see it that way. You know, I don't think it's a matter of politics. And what's the question in so like, why would you say it's a it's a political decision? Yeah, I mean, of course, there's a number of external circumstances that cause poverty, right? If it doesn't rain for so many years in Africa, then you will have poverty because but essentially in societies, and it's it's just always the case that resources are not distributed equally. And this kind of tends to perpetuate because the groups that are better off, they try to protect their privileges for themselves and then also for their children. If you look at it, it's a bit of a simplistic example, but African dictators, they often tend to give that dictatorship to their children, actually. So you kind of have these dynasties, even with presidents, they do it, you know, I have a George W. Bush, and then his father. Thank you. So that's kind of the way it works. And if you don't make the conscious decision as a society to all kind of mechanisms like, I guess, voluntary organizations, unions started out like that, you know, to protect workers that was essentially their first voluntary organizations. And then there were unions and then they become social partners. So and all these institutions are basically aimed at redistributing resources to ensure that the people at the bottom are also included. And I mean, it's that's where the politics come in. I think it strikes me because just is this the way it works in a lecture? Is this how it goes? The discussion between student and teacher. It's getting it's getting there. Like in the first month, it was like students a little bit more, more shy, I guess, but that's normal. But now we are getting more in the mode of discussion. And I think that the classes become much more vivid or much more interesting when you have these type of these discussions. Yeah. But I think it's much encouraged by the the lecture. And it's a necessity to solve these kind of problems, of course, to have a discussion about it. And of course, the teacher gets an opportunity to ask the students a question as well, because we want to maybe some sort of exam. What would you like to ask the students, Carline? I don't know. They already passed the exam. Excellent. Excellent. So and they also like said a lot of things which I recognize. So I'm kind of happy with that. So the lecture, that's the best thing you can have. Right. OK. So let me just rephrase the question. What what was what is a good example that they did at the table? What were you proud of? What was I proud of? Well, I think they actually they're able to put scientific knowledge. So the things that we learned in class, they're able to apply this to like either examples or to questions that they have. And I think this is very good. This is what universities want to achieve. And of course, to prepare them for the future. Well, you've said a lot about the future, about things that you were going to do. What are you going to do when once you've graduated? What's the next step? That's yeah, that's an interesting question. I want to be a broker of social movements, which is like so no no stock exchange broker, nothing to do with that. Yeah, but it's it's really interesting because for collaborations between those very different movements or organizations, you really need someone in between who is familiar with the language and what they are doing and what their projects are and then to strategically connect them to each other. And because those wicked problems are so interconnected and we need those networks, we really need someone who is responsible to create those networks. And that's where I see myself going. Yeah, nice creating networks. And Carline, because poverty is one of your focus points. What's the next part of this wicked problem that you're going to study? Right, I actually just finished a large research project about changes on housing markets and how it is linked to inequality. And I kind of wrote a new or in the beginnings of writing a new research proposal, which is actually about the politics of poverty. And I kind of want to reanalyze poverty trends of the last 25 years and kind of look how not only how welfare states have changed, but also how things, for instance, what I know from my research on housing markets and also a lot of other research is that a lot of things in society are changing so that if we only look at poverty as an income problem, which is what we do in Europe, we kind of see a small increase, but not very much. But if you look at, for instance, the increase in housing costs and food costs and energy costs, the poor are actually spending a lot more of their limited resources than they did 20 years ago. And you see this in all European countries, you see an increase in homelessness in all European countries the last five years. And I think this is not only something that is linked to the economic crisis, but it is linked to a much larger trend. So I kind of want to remake the case that poverty is a much broader problem than just an income problem. And I want to reanalyze this whole politics of poverty process of the last 25 years. But I need to find funding for that. Well, so if you've got a bag of money lying at home. Well, Rodrigo, we talked, of course, in the introduction about Peru and poverty situation there. Now you would like to change that. And we hear that there are a lot of elements working with poverty. But where would you start? What would you do in Peru? I would say that it's a matter of education and access, especially access to education, because you see that in a lot of places. The only option that people have is a state education. And perhaps that's not bad here in Europe, because state education is very good or in the development, sorry, or in the developed world. It's not bad. But in Peru, you see a very, very big gap between, for example, private institutions, educated, educated institutions, if you can say that, and national. So I would say that, yeah, I would start with that either reform in the, I know it sounds very big and all that I can make it tomorrow. I think education is a very important step for people to grow out of poverty. But we hear a lot of other options as well, for instance, housing or income. But you say in Peru, we need to start with education. Exactly. That's also the, I would say, the nice thing about working problems is like whenever, for example, I'm doing this, I'm saying that poverty is has its roots in education. But I could also say that it has its root in income. But I could also say that the income is bad, or the income is not enough because people are not highly educated. Or I could say that, or I could say that their their education is bad because they don't have enough income. Yeah, so where do you start? From theory and social policy, there's also this idea that there's like key interventions, right? And what you're saying is in Peru, the key intervention is education, but in an African country, it might be health care to start with. So there are different solutions for poverty in different areas. It depends on how you define it. How do you find it dependent on the context too? Exactly, yes. And so you'd like to work with in Peru with education? Well, it's, well, I don't know if I would like to directly contribute with that. But I would say that if if you, how do you say, shatter, shatter the barriers that poor people have with good quality education, then you wouldn't make a step forward. Okay. And what would you do in Peru? Because well, what's your next step? I mean, well, my next step, I don't know. Like I would like to go into research, I think, or I would also like to go into consultancy, because for example, in Peru, we have a lot of problems with extractive companies. They have a really, really bad reputation for people who extractive companies. What is that mining? Okay. For example, we have per is a very resourceful country. But usually you have a lot of inequality there. But for example, these extractive companies have a lot of conflicts with local communities. So there is a mismanage of of stakeholders of relationships with them. I would like to try to help there. They from a consultancy part point of view, creating the network with the company and the society, which could benefit from the company, of course, I think that it's a, yeah, if you manage that, well, that relationship that you have, well, then both, both, it's a win-win situation, I think, because right now you have a, I don't know, you have a lot of projects, for example, that are completely, I don't know to say paralyzed, or it's just no go and communities lose jobs, for example, and the company loses millions of money because they cannot operate. So and you're going to make it better and create the win-win situation between the companies and the because I believe in cooperation and I believe that cooperation leads, as you say, to a win-win situation. Are you going back to Peru? Oh, yeah. Is that there you're going to solve poverty there? Or actually try to solve it. Yeah, but yeah, I would like to, because the thing is like if I went out because I, sorry, I left Peru because I think that I could get much more knowledge here or I could take from the good practices that welfare states have or already industrialized societies have, or just, I don't know. Yeah, I could take those examples and try to get them to Peru. So yeah, in the future, I would like to come back. And in the third year, you've got your, well, your possibilities to go abroad. What are you going to do then? Have you got a planner already or? I was thinking about it. I don't know if I'm going to go abroad, but I was looking into a minor of ethics. Okay, minor of ethics. Well, you're not going abroad, of course, Carlina, but you will. Where are you going? I'm drawn to make an internship in South America, somewhere. Nice. Just one more question for the scientists. Maybe it's a completely different subject, but I find it difficult because I'm Western. I come from a developed area, of course, in the world. I find it very difficult to look with an open perspective to poverty because, I mean, you, Carlina, also, you come from Belgium, which is a developed, isn't it very easy to say as an educated person, well, we'll solve this problem. I will do it like this. Well, yeah, but I don't think we, I don't think we say that, actually. I think we do research to try to understand the problem better and to help policy makers trying to do something. But it's not like you say, I don't think scientists have the idea that they will have, like, this end solution or anything. And especially not with just the Western perspective. You need to have an open mind. I think it's tricky when you look at poverty and the Western perspective. But I think the way we've been, I think the way we look at it nowadays is basically this whole idea that basic needs are not only about your material needs, but about your social needs and that you know, if there's hunger and starvation, you always have poverty, right? And then this idea that the social part is more relative is actually developed by a Nobel Prize winner of Indian descent, Amartya Sen, who was a scholar at Oxford University. But he kind of said, you know, that he actually said, we cannot look in poverty in different ways in the Western world and in the less developed world. You know, it's not fair. And he came up with this framework. And I think even though you can have a lot of criticism on it, it's a good framework to work in. And then you have to Yeah, and there is some criticism because the UN one question is how are we going to solve hunger in the African part of the world, of the poor parts in the world. And then you see like the Western community saying what's hunger? You see America saying what's the rest of the world? You see it's a comic, of course. So how would you approach such a different kind of perspective? Not a very good question, but Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like it comes in like this top-down kind of approach of us being the self-righteous people who figured it all out. You know, we call ourselves developed, but what the hell is developed? And then you kind of go into other countries and you get this like that you create dependencies that you say, OK, this is the main issues, but you don't even ask to people who are really suffering from poverty. So I don't know exactly what the pathways are, but like getting from our high horse of saying we figured it out in democracy. It's working with us, you know. And yeah, I'm really favoring movements, you know, like the people making the change because I don't expect governments and private corporations to make the changes. Well, and let's end with that, people making the change. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for looking and thank you for all your insights. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.