 Alright, thanks for staying with us here. According to a report by Kaz Tag, a news agency in Republic of Kazakhstan, 14 illegal migrants from Nigeria lived in one of the hostels in Almaty and investigations showed that their periods of stay on the territory of Kazakhstan had expired. The country is currently taking measures to identify host individuals and legal entities to take appropriate measures. Now according to the head of the Migration Service Department of Almaty Police Department, illegal migration, a complex issue in Nigeria caused by a variety of issues ranging from economic, political, social and environmental factors and it can have negative consequences for both individuals and society as a whole. So today we're asking why is illegal migration amongst Nigerians still an issue? Please let's hear what you have to say. Remember you can join this conversation send us an SMS or what's up to the right 1-803-84663. I mean I don't think any of us on this table has somebody that is not living abroad or does not have anywhere you know like yeah you get what I mean. So I was just coming I was just coming there. So every time these conversations come out to the open I keep wondering what exactly would be the reason because you see several times I've said it several times that you travel to the US and say why are you going back to Nigeria? You know you hear all those who tell you those kind of stuff why do you want to go back? You know sometimes some people have migrated illegally just based on those kind of suggestions because they hear you can do this and you know and they eventually stay and of course they know that it is not you know it's not it's not as easy as the people painted it. But the truth is the question is why do we have illegal migrations you know and I think all of us here we have people that are living abroad and virtually all of them right if all of them not even virtually all of them moved legally to the US and some to other parts of the world right and they're doing well. So is this a case of first of all resources that maybe people do not have the right resources to be able to channel the the what's it called the legal routes to some of these migration processes or is this the case of lack of information or is it that these people just feel like you know what there's the mindset thing that I just have to do it illegally. What exactly do you think the factors would be who is going to come to us? NJ. I would say we'll take in factor after factor. So the first one would be economic challenges. We don't have enough opportunities in Nigeria and there's high unemployment rate. The pay is low the income is low the dollar rate is changing every day so it's affecting that also is affecting the price of goods and services. So generally with the amount what you're making as a salary is not enough to fund even just the basic life. Okay so NJ let me so that's what you've just painted now is why people would want to live in Nigeria. So the question is why would they want to live illegally? NJ. Because of that. If I do not have money to even live here. How about is it a financial thing? NJ. That's what I'm saying that's what I'm getting to. So if I do not even have money to survive here definitely I do not have enough to survive over there. So the only way for me and I don't want to be here because I don't I have Nigerians see it as you have less opportunities here but if you go out there you have a slighter better chance of surviving. So I rather go there and I don't have the money to afford it. So the only way to go is illegally. Do you understand what I'm saying? So because there's no you can't afford it here you can't afford the life here you can't afford it there but someone tells you okay with one of maybe your salary for one month I can sneak you in through the back you will pay for that sounds like you agree. I mean I think it's desperation and also extreme desperation uh such that you are to a place where you're thinking get rich or die trying and like NJ said you probably may have heard the success stories of people who went there maybe people you know for instance I have people who have come there right and I'm in a position where I'm tempted by their success stories I want to go there but my reality in Nigeria is not telling me the truth and so I'm thinking what I'm not saying I will I'm just using myself as an example please and I'm thinking what else am I going to do now someone comes up with an option and says okay how about you take a bus to Mali and then from Mali you do this and you do that and you do that and at the end of the day legal migration might take you maybe 40 50 million there but if you go through this route it's going it's only going to take you 750 000 there if you're desperate and not for it it's only natural that you only take the 750 000 route so what I hear you say is that the reason I would want to leave this country illegally might be because I feel like you know financially I cannot afford a legal path that's one of it that's one of them but you see is it that that is the real issue or is the ignorance you know why I say this because now I've had so many people leave this country legally right and I feel like the problem with illegal migration is more of a knowledge problem right a lot of people do not know they do not know that this this these countries that they are going to a lot of these countries have opened up what's it called I mean there are some people it is actually even next to nothing you pay Jiggy what I'm saying they give you free I mean I've seen so many stories of people that say oh come to my country I'll give you housing allowance I will even give you whatever allowance just to come and because those countries are countries that have like a population problem they have older people in their in their countries and they're looking to to find younger people to come and populate the place and all of that so that they can get a good young workforce so this illegal migration itself so the factor of our economic realities right is why people want to live Nigeria but why people want to live illegally I don't think it's an economical problem now so here is the other angle that yes some of this country some of them would even say skilled workers and you know what not but then the thing is the qualification too like there is this new one on STEM that the US is doing that is the diversity in in workforce or something that the US and a couple of other countries are also doing right and so some people are aware of this but the qualification I I don't fit the quality like STEM now I don't anything science except I have to go back to school so if I want to migrate using that if I'm knowledgeable about that no matter how much I know about it I am not qualified for it and so if they say there is diversity in the workplace maybe they want to employ have more of you know maybe it's people they don't have enough of people from Africa and on the list which they've actually done they've said Nigeria are not on the list we want people that have very minor representation in the US Nigeria has a lot of representation in the US so automatically Nigeria is off the list again this qualified you know and so when you're going through all of this list and and I think there's also the education route if you want to go through education route some of them will say okay if you're coming through education this is the fee that you're going to have to pay you don't have it or you're going to have to study this so that canada end up being an african teacher or lecturer in african studies while you're studying as you're not qualified for it you understand so it's not just there's a lot of information out there but you also have to look at it through qualification that's one another thing is also processing times like I have spoken I'm not going to call out the person but I know someone who had to migrate illegally because the spouse is there the person don't wait seven years they're still processing people what is going on you understand and so when you're taking that much processing times families want to be reunited spouses want to be reunited so when it's taking you ideally your green card or the green card invitation should be processed within I think three years or three to five years this is seven years and counting it hasn't worked and eventually god I'm not saying it's the right thing to do I'm just telling someone's story and eventually the door is open she finally gets a visit visa through anyway so now when she when she migrates obviously she's obviously not going to stay back there she's obviously not going to come back she's going to stay there and continue that green card processing inside that place you know and then the same thing with what the US is currently going through the mexican border and or what not last year was 2.2 million people that migrated right now they're 2.5 you know and some of these people will tell you that they waited on the US authority I mean we're talking Nigeria but I'm just citing US and they are migration Biden's migration problem as an issue they'll tell you that see we waited though I have kids there that was taking away from me during Trump's administration they've not processed everything I need to see my children so by hell or high water I have to get through okay so I get the idea of the processing time which was a major issue again because again if you even look at it right um COVID even was in a lot of things if you check a lot of embassies they were bombarded because they had a backlog of things but again I'm saying to you that some of these things have been eased off right so I feel like when it comes to issues around migration I am from Edo State, Benin City you know what I said the Baba of the Baba's of the illegal migrants Edo State Benin City so it is something that it is like somewhat embedded in us if not for now that technology has changed and advanced where people are no you can no longer because I know people that had to use somebody else I'll come and use your passport to travel do you understand so now you because of biometrics because of fingerprints and all the technology has come into you know the um what's called the borders right it is difficult for us to do some of the things that we heard our uncles our aunties and our parents you know what they did right but you see when it comes to illegal migration I feel like there is a huge chunk of mindset that is troubling a lot of people because you see some of these things that you've talked about right yes validity in processing time it might take a while right but the truth is right if you understand the the consequences of going illegally right you would rather have that wait you know my sister is currently she's a French citizen now but she had to move to the US to go study and do some other things right thank god for the kind of family that we come from right because if not for the kind of family that we we we we I mean the kind of people that we are they were just too many things filtering in her ear you can do this you can do that you can do that I said no do you understand so it was a case of we have to put our foot on ground whatever needs to be done legally for me to be able to get a what's he called a work permit and all of that is what I'm she's got in it already do you understand it didn't take so much time so I get you right that some of these things it is because of the but I feel like again if you surround yourself around people that only think if they want to do anything do only the first because I know some people that if they want to do anything by default they always go through the legal yes it is the illegal one they want to think of yes so if you surround yourself around those kind of people there is every chance that you too you will find yourself trying to leave the country illegally when you talk about jobs you talk about work you talk about all of these things school and all of that there are courses that you can get fully funded scholarship you see it is the work that we do not want to put in there are fully funded scholarships they are fully what's he called a what's he called fully sponsored jobs you know so when you talk about qualifications around STEM must you go to the US do you understand there are other countries that are opening their borders to Nigerians there are other countries that can also be well that you can also survive so it is the mindset again if this country is not favorable to you have you checked other countries for me I feel like it is that inability for us to even take that time to just do small research we don't want to go on study we don't want to go on learn because even this qualification you're talking about people are looking for drivers in Canada do you understand they are looking for farmers do you need qualification to be a farmer do you need qualification to be a driver you have to be you don't go to that one I'm trying to tell you that for every skill gap that they have they are looking for those workers and the skilled workers sometimes though it is not necessarily that you must be or educated or listen I like to go down to the person selling peanuts on this tree and that person selling peanuts let me have a skill that's what I'm telling you hang on hold on they have a skill that's what I'm trying to let you understand it's not as easy as that the person selling peanuts the person that is a fantastic farmer right have you ever gotten in contact with immigration people or people who work out all day because it's not you that will go and do it because the person you have the skill but you don't have the language and you know communication is an issue let's not forget right so you have to write your IELTS or depending on wherever you're going to most times they don't even understand this thing so there is the middleman who helps in communication ask that middleman how much they are collecting to serve all to do all that at the end of the day that farmer you see that just just go back to your farm because you can't afford their fees let's take a break we'll be right back she said it okay they are shouting inside this to you two of them they said I'm far from reality so if you just tune in we're discussing the topic why is illegal migration amongst Nigerians and Nigerians still an issue and let's hear what you have to say remember you can join the conversation I wish we could call take calls today but we can't take calls please send me your messages and your whatsapp you know just send the message to us we'll so I get you and you by the way she was attacking me that I am far from reality but why would you say that because I don't know see let me tell you something right I feel like yes I get it a lot of times but I also I also know people that even in that very poor state they would never think of illegal migration yes do you know what I'm saying there are some people that have their their principles and they stand by the convictions and they stand by it they would work an honest they work an honest job in order to make an honest living to get to where they want to be but we have to come to the realization that our realities that Nigerians have lost that party a long time ago so asking and keep reiterating it is not going to change the reality of it do you understand if we want to know why these are the issues there are issues bordered there issues on ground is it the insecurity or is it the political crisis that's happening every time when you don't know what dangling like pendulums and you don't even know where you're heading to or is or is it the education which one is it so okay so and we're talking about people and we're talking about people who can afford a nine to five a meal like a full three square meal but they are ready to sell their kidney but in order to go abroad trust me it has to be that bad for people to want to do that because nobody wants to risk their life but you can afford my mind cannot process illegal migration i'm sorry which is understandable it doesn't stop it but you know what i'm saying this i said if i was born in benign city right i need you to help me follow this picture i'm trying to okay if i was born in benign city i think this is part of the reason my father decided that he would he would give it all of us in karduna city he migrated to karduna many many years ago before he started having his children because for him the mindset was that around benign you understand is it a lot transactions you understand young girls who just go up a day you want to go and do prostitution in italy that was what was was really the rave of the moment whilst we were being born do you know what i'm saying so i feel like if my mind if i was raised in that kind of setting right i would probably not see anything wrong with illegal migration right so i'm saying to you that for me i feel like young people now right it is probably what they're being exposed to because no matter how much i i mean no matter how much you say you want to flag anything you see in my face even if i see the results that as long as i cannot see that the document that you left nigeria with was was what's called legally authorized for you to leave i don't see how i want to go into another country and now be a fugitive a fugitive or you understand or be running away from the from the law that's my point so i get it i am far from the reality and i'm saying to you that that reality is also it also as a result of where my mind is at so why i'm saying that is that if we why don't we find a way to elevate the mindset of nigerians do you get what i'm saying i get it we have economic challenges the the country the political challenges and the troubles and all of that it's part of why i want to run away from my country but in the end right you also don't want to find yourself abroad with nothing because it is even 10 times worse so look at these people now that they were caught they still want to they don't even with all the things that is going on that they still do not want to leave what is happening in kazakhstan and something has to be happening that is not happening here oh i remember what i said that people are i don't know i'm trying to on people that there is like this deterioration in the nigerian society that people have gotten to that place where and i'm not saying it like you should clap for ourselves i'm saying it with a lot of pain in my heart and embarrassment that my country has gotten to this level where people are desperate it's either get rich or die trying you know that's just that's just a sad reality where we find ourselves like i like there has to be something happening there and why i'll say there has to be something happening there i'll give you an example so irrespective of how illegal you are in any country most countries there would be some provision that the government will make for you eventually they can't social service if they can't send you back to your country there's the refugee there's something they always have one plan we don't have that plan no the only time we have that plan is when they they sit in parliament and then they approve budgets for palaces or there's some quality that we never see we're not even discussing that but it's either that or when there's war in a close by country and we decide okay we're going to give this we're going to build inocent that's when we remember inocent models we don't tell them that they should build card lessons to them because that one is cheaper so it's only in situations like that that you see in nigeria so where is that opportunity for people here why do you think people don't migrate to nigerian the only people that migrate to nigeria people that are coming to come and collect money from nigerians and they're collecting and they're collecting and they go they move it back to their country so we don't have that provision here and that is the reason why a common person a common individual will say i rather die there because even the barrier they will bury me better i'm sorry but this is so embarrassing like goodness that they will bury me here then they will put roads in actually everybody come and stand like this when they are done that's it they'll go and eat rice everybody will move on so it's we talk about humanity and things like that the value for human life that's the thing we have that it has eroded a long time ago so i understand the need for us to keep talking about it so that there's that awareness and everything but we also have to consider what if we're going to go by what we're going for these are the reasons and they are valid reasons i'm not supporting illegal migration but they are valid reasons if because it's not just the poor man if you say it's the poor man and he's a an information management situation a kind of thing it's not just the poor man that is doing it i have friends who have migrated with visitors let's just go and they never came back and from there some of them have become citizens today some of them are still fighting that battle and hiding under a rug because if they find you you're on your way back here with no plans of return so it is the situation now on ground and we have to talk about it not just from the human there's the human angle but that human angle is God that will help us because it would take us a long time and for us to even get to that point we have to start even believing in it and for us to believe in it we have to see it and for us to see it our current government has to do something so that it gives us hope that we want to still remain in this country if not you are about to see another massive shipload migration in containers they will for an individual to say an individual you are here you are surviving even if you beg on the street you will make some money somebody will be nice to you so that you can eat for the day and someone decides i will pack a backpack all my things i will put it in one bag and i'll go in the desert where there's no water and there's no food and i'm going to spend every dime i have just to go to another country trust me whatever they're running from they're not thinking about what they're running they're thinking about where they are heading to and they rather face that than stay where they are and die or die trying yeah that is that is it's get rich or die trying and another angle of it is that while you're suffering and you don't have food here you're thinking of how you're going to survive you hear news like this that they are buying a that they're buying your to all that water on what waterways on what waterways you are buying cars on what roadways what road what good road have you created what good road have you completed that you're driving this car so that the next four years another person will come and tell us that those cars are bad so that let's get another one each of these cars are costing how much this things are in billions so when you think about it it's not about humanity that has been far like when you watch the news every day it erodes on it on it even on social media sometimes you just don't go out i don't i don't i try not to watch things i see and then anymore because the only thing you hear about Nigeria i just say sometimes i put in Nigeria it's always bad news because when you watch some of this thing it angers me it does it irritates you and you don't you're not sure in other countries when there's an issue a parliament member will say things like this is how you know somebody has humanity on behalf of myself and my seats i'm giving up my salary this year this or this month i'm going to work almost like i'm going to work for free and i'm going to give it i'm going to focus it on maybe there has been one major issue within the country so as my own personal donation this is what i'm going to contribute my salary or a tenth of my salary because you know how much it is so you've calculated what it tends to be like so a tenth of my salary or a quarter of my salary i'm going to dedicate to this that is what humans do that's what reasonable people do that's what service people do they try and make it in such a way that everyone is happy at the end of the day or at least you don't feel left out we don't get that in Nigeria Nigeria what we get is the crumbs so how do we solve this problem because whether we like it or not like you rightly said the the reasons people would want to live Nigeria illegally is very valid but that does not just that doesn't make a right so how do we solve this problem because i know that there are so many countries right now that are looking for Nigerians like literally all you need to do is go online you will see so many people telling you that come come to my country i saw one small country i think in italy or something they are looking for young people because they have an old population and all of that like there are people that are looking to to have people so my point is i get it that the economy is tough i get it that a lot of these things are happening but let's just take a second or two to pause and do a small do small reset because bad i see bad let me tell you something even those illegal paths that you take is not cheap you will still need to spend money so in the end let's not be pennywise pound foolish do you know what i'm saying let's find out because it might just be that there's just an information that you need that will just save you from the stress or the hassle of going through an illegal means right because you see when things are done legally it helps you to even help the people that you are because some people will tell you i'm leaving not because of me i'm leaving because of my my siblings i'm leaving because of my parents you want to help them you want to go and get yourself better jobs so that when you come back you can help them so that's the more reason you should actually think first think through and find a legal means to this migration i get it poverty is everywhere do you understand it's not like it is it is rosy or rosy elsewhere the only thing that is working in some of these places that we want to run to is that you can't plan you can say okay you know what if i get a job that gives me x y z i can plan my my my income around there's a structure around you know a way that you can once you have a steady income there's a path that you can plan say in the next five years if i continue to earn this amount of money if i can add one more or two more jobs i can become this person but that is the uncertainty that we have here in Nigeria there is no clear what's it called structural plan sorry i have to correct you another solution to this illegal migration is i think there's a lot because the middlemen there the people who understand the laws and rules and how to do the applications they are necessary we are not going to rule them out right but i'm just going to play to them that if they can just be human because people are cashing out with these things you if you want to apply for a work visa i think is maybe i don't know maybe us or uk i don't know four hundred and four hundred and something fifty dollars or so that's the ideal you know overwork visa but if you go to a middleman to help you work that a four hundred and fifty uh dollars based on the current uh exchange rate is not up to one million naira but if you go to them to help you with this you'll be hearing five million you'll be hearing six million you know and at the end of it just completely discourages people and you you know that if you use your hand to write what so maybe you've done your application at the office and whatnot if you use your hand to write it chances of you understanding how it works you have to be like extremely intelligent or i mean i don't know but there's a huge business opportunity here for anybody that cares to listen maybe we need to plead with the people that understand these processes of migration right why don't you set up a proper um was it called um company that can help these people you know i'd probably reduce fees but i don't know i don't know you don't understand the same way people coming if you open your doors to go out for people to go out your doors will be open for people to come in also so why not make enhance the legal migration channels that we have do you understand make it legal advertise it the fact that you advertise it does not mean people are everybody's going to run away but the reason why they are not advertising it is because they know that people really want to go yeah and then we have got better control but they cannot be party to say uh do you want to live in the uk this company would not do that so what i think the government should do i mean just to help you make make living conditions more conducive so that we have a don't roll your eyes out if you make living conditions conducive a lot of people would want to stay back in their countries yeah right um jobs for instance right when you see all these doctors nurses running away is because they've seen the cost if i if i'm earning x y z you understand i can never end that kind of amount if i stay back in nigeria so why don't you see as a government find a way to make this instead of this your 360 cars that you're buying at the 160 million i'll be 140 million so some figures say 140 some say 160 million whatever the case is why don't we think about i mean what's it called increasing the the pay grade right for for for skilled workers for government workers so when you increase their pay you know nobody will be thinking too far because again living conditions would be better for people yeah so it is the it is the and this is the insensitivity that i that i say when i see some of these arguments around buying a yacht or buying a car or whatever it is refurbishing a house you know for ridiculous amount of money you know there's one angle that you are going to buy that car there's another angle that that price is also an inflated price yes do you understand what i'm saying if sometimes you won't hear that okay somebody wants to renovate a place and they even put the regular cost it is even a different thing but as far as it's a government contract everybody just believe that when it comes to i'm like it's like 50 times the amount of the cost of the money you know 50 times not 50 percent 50 times the cost of the money you understand so it makes no sense it is the height of insensitivity if we're talking about patriotism we're talking about you know love for country we're talking about value for human life this is the time it is nothing when we have abundance that we need empathetic leaders in this kind of city that we need empathetic leaders so if we have empathetic leaders we are talking about migration it will no longer be a thing of it will not be a thing of you know what let me just go but it is not now it is a thing of my life depends on this which shouldn't be the case do you understand because a lot of people that i see that they want to leave the country is that their life depends on it it's very very few people that are able to leave the country just okay because you know um i need to uh what's the called i need to just just go and get a better life a lot of people it is because they look at the trajectory if i continue like this i'm going to go bankrupt and it's a very sad reality and we only live once and time is running i would say that the some of the advice the government will be to maybe up on border control because our borders are closed quite close to an extent so up on border control create awareness necessary awareness where necessary and improve lives of people if for me government have better lives government if you want to leave government if you want to hear it if you want to hear it everybody will not be as loyal as i said except you want to end up in the country where nobody is there please do the right thing i rest my head this argument i'm not going to win it no honestly i just pray that people see differently i don't know government will have their own headache right but i'm just thinking for me it's your safety what if you use your life in the process you will say i rather die okay oh thank you so much ladies i think we had a conversation that was worth the time before we go and show you photos across all our social media handles listen to our podcast on spotify sad wish you africa you can interact with us further for comment and most importantly for the all our engagements like share and invite your families and friends to watch and follow the conversation now if you missed our quote for today by Abubakar that lives in Dubai and i just i just had to add that it says young Nigerians aren't just living in Nigeria because of bad pay and working conditions they're living because there is no hope see you tomorrow at 8pm i'll see you in another great conversation to your screen