 Hey everybody. Today we're debating whether or not Islam is true and we are starting right now with Muhammad's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us, Muhammad. The floor is all yours. Thank you, James, and hello, everybody. I'm here to put the position on why Islam is true. I'm going to approach the debate in a different tactic than what people usually understand of what Islam is because people quickly run to the curriculum of Muhammad and the way Muhammad understood Islam and told the world about Islam. But I want to start with by saying that God indeed took Abraham as his best friend. Therefore, we can conclude that God, who created the skies and land and everything in between, accepted the actions and inputs from Abraham, along with his sincerity and loyalty, and thus became the benchmark to everyone after him. If a man succeeds in a capitalistic market and becomes affluent, people want to know their recipes so that they can achieve the same success. Abraham achieved an unpassed success as a human being. Therefore, one should learn from the way of Abraham to achieve the same success. The state of peace and submission that Abraham had, which led to his success, both here and hereafter, made such a butterfly effect in the history so that his children after him were inspired divinely and naturally to find that mentality and path that Abraham took. Being accepted by God is gauged by how the natural, supernatural, seen and unseen world reacts to you along with your decisions. The mentality, the reasoning, and the approach that Abraham had is what submission is and that is what Islam means. Moses, David, Jesus, and Muhammad all invited to that state of submission and became influential and were granted a clear authority over all opposing mentalities and teachings. Due to the input of those individuals in the world, which was multiplied and endorsed by God, certain schools and curriculums came from their teaching, which is based on a building, which is based on building a community to serve God. As God states in the Quran, the closest to Abraham are those who followed him, and this prophet, Muhammad, and the believers, that's the verse from the Quran. By definition, Islam is the submission to God and the will of God. When presented with choices, which we all are presented with choices on a regular basis, one is confident that the help of God himself directly or through a medium like an angel or his stated words that were stated before would give them the correct decision. Therefore, the decision is not based on impulse, desires, or what the human wants. Rather, they make the decision based on what the truth is and what's best for them on what is around, all derived from God's wisdom. Stating that Muhammad's curriculum is the best curriculum in achieving the state of peace with God is proven by looking at what the Quran is teaching and then understanding the roots of what the prophet peace be upon him derived from the Quran. A true submitter forbids immoralities and invites people to give favor, to go above and beyond expectations. As God states in chapter 98 on the Quran, there were not ordered anything except to serve God sincerely, to pray and to give alms or to give from what they were given. As you see the instructions of submissions are very simple. Yet as someone who ponders upon themselves and the creation around them, a human is a communal being driven by community and society because on an individual level, the human is lonely and weak. If the truth is that you are a small piece of wood and the world in front of you is a flame, you have the choice to put yourself to use or stand by and rot with no purpose. Mind you, the fire is burning with or without you. Islam is you believing the truth and doing your part. As God states in the Quran that God created life and death to test us on which one of us are the best workers or who's the one who's putting the most effort in the world that belongs to God. I can first foresee my opponent attacking Sunnism and the ideas that came with certain Sunni political leaders who take certain verses and certain sayings and twist them to further their personal agenda. A modern day example is the leader, there's a Sheikh leader of the secret house in Mecca, Sheikh Saleh Al-Talib. And mind you, to be a leader in such an honorable place isn't an easy achievement. By any means, this man was jailed due to a sermon he did criticizing how the Muslim world is allowing foreign liberal ideas to poison the community. The ruling party that claims to be Muslim, jailed that man. The point that I'm making is unjust and evil leaders existed not only in the last century but ever since the departure of Muhammad peace and blessings upon him and twisted the religion and attributed things to God in his messengers which are not accurate. There is sin at the Nabi or the way of the tradition of the prophets peace be upon him and then there's sin at the law the way in the tradition of God. The tradition of God is very simple to grasp and in the spirit of real Islam I would like to warn the west of a simple concept because as a Muslim it's our duty to warn. The tradition of God goes as follows, God gives a blessing to a nation and allows them to grow, conquer, expand and pretty much inherit their surroundings. Said nation becomes so powerful they begin to feel that they cannot be defeated. The attributes success and power from themselves rather than their creator. This arrogance is then shown by how said nation begins to oppress others and themselves based on lies and demonization tactics with sole purpose to sustain their size materialistically. They silence or kill anyone who reminds them of justice honesty awareness intellect reason and proofs all the attributes that the Quran constantly reminds us of they get a clear reminder and warning that those who oppressed before them are not around and at this point very little people believe while the majority just laughs it off. God saves the believes believers and destroys said nation as a person who is from the seat of Abraham and the nation of God. We have seen so many nations and ideas like the pharaohs Greek Romans Mongols Persian Byzantines Nazis Vikings Ottomans communists come and go over multiple millenniums but the Jews Christians Muslims and their belief in a single God the God of Abraham and the way of Abraham which is submission did not perish. So America who has been demonizing Islam for the last 20 years might be here for now but it won't be here tomorrow yet Islam and the idea of Islam is here now and submission will be here tomorrow. So in a world where the reality is that the survivor is the one who matters Islam is always the survivor. Therefore the ideology of Islam is not only true but it's also king and that's all I have to say. Thank you very much for that opening statement from Muhammad and we're going to kick it over to Apostate Prophet but first I want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral channel hosting debates on science religion and politics. We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from and hey if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up. So for example the bottom right of your screen King Crocoduck comes out of retirement to debate David McQueen creation evolution. It's going to be a big one later this month. You don't want to miss it. Hit that subscribe button and with that Apostate Prophet thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours for your opening thank you so much James and thank you Muhammad for that opening statement. I want to share my screen so I can show my presentation which I do through here and through here I believe. Is it visible? It is. Fantastic. So what do we mean when we say Islam is true? As you can see on this picture there are a lot of very enthusiastic people down here that cling on to the Kaaba and want to follow the truth. People say that Islam is very simple it is about believing in one God and Muhammad as a messenger and all of that but if we want to really find out what Islam is we have to go further than just those ideas. It is true in order to become part of Islam you have to say there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah that's how you are officially a Muslim and people often want to make it look like that's what that's what it is all about but it's not really there is so much more. For example there are essential Islamic claims like that Allah is the same God of the Bible that Muhammad is the final messenger of Allah that Muhammad is a perfect guide that the Qur'an is the direct word of Allah and that humans must follow Islam absolutely otherwise they will go to hell and with these basic points there's of course so much more there's a lot more that must be established in order to come to the conclusion that Islam is true. For example based on these if we look at everything that the Qur'an offers and that Muhammad offers we we get the idea that everything in the Qur'an is true according to the Qur'an that in the beginning there was only Allah and nothing else fine we cannot really you know argue against that. His throne was on the water this is what the Qur'an explicitly says and Muhammad says it in traditions too so before Allah created the heavens and the earth his throne was above the water we can discuss the details of that later in length he then created and spread the earth above the water which he created for us humans to walk on. He also put mountains into this earth by the way so that the earth doesn't shake with us as the Qur'an says then he created seven heavens above us so you know he creates the earth for us and then he creates seven heavens above us if you are noticing that the background of his of it looks like a very mythical nice flat earth with a with strange skies and objects within the skies and a throne above it don't be surprised that's basically how the Qur'an describes the world. The sky is the lowest heaven so the sky that we have above us is according to the Qur'an called the nearest heaven or the lowest heaven or literally the heaven of the earth heaven and sky are used interchangeably they are the same thing that is the first heaven this sky is according to the Qur'an a ceiling in which there are no cracks that's how it's supposed to be because it is a solid firm ceiling that Allah built above us he holds up the sky if you came until here and everything looks very laughable very ridiculous i have to tell you this is exactly what the Qur'an tells you he holds up the sky so according to the Qur'an Allah built the sky above us and it is he who restrains the sky from falling down on us and with his mercy and he also holds it up without pillars that we can see this is the might of Allah according to the Qur'an Allah also sends rain down from the sky yes in the past people had to find explanations for certain things like where rain comes from nowadays we know that you know rain is in a cycle of you know evaporation goes up comes down through the clouds again goes underneath the earth some of it evaporates and so on according to the Qur'an Allah sends rain down so we can grow things on the earth the sun and the moon follow each other this is literally what the Qur'an describes it says that the sun and the moon are constantly following each other and Allah subjected them to us according to the Qur'an the sun also travels to a resting place it goes indeed it travels until it goes to a resting place or a stopping point literally the sun will also rise from the west one day this is not in the Qur'an this is in the hadith and the vast majority of Muslims believe in this the hadith in the hadith Muhammad says that the sun goes somewhere at night and comes from the other side in the morning and one day it will not come but it will arise from the west and that is a sign of the day of judgment it doesn't make any sense if you actually think about it but you're not supposed to think about it according to the Qur'an stars are missiles or and also an adornment Allah created the stars in our nearest sky and also uses them as missiles in order to throw them at rebellious devils who try to go up and snatch information that is sensitive between Allah and his angels Allah created humans fine Allah created jins in the Islamic mythology there are also besides humans other creations called the jins who exist with us on this very earth that we are on and who at night or at a part of the evening go outside to snatch people's belongings and children and so on if that were true you would have to be able to track that somehow or see things you know float through the sky without any explanation unfortunately that is not really happening Allah created humans and jins just so they worship him as the Quran says and he does whatever he wants but he also created many of us for hell and we are bound to go to hell we have hearts with which we do not understand and we are basically less than cattle as the Quran says he created death to test humans despite creating us all just so we worship him and he created us he created death to test us despite the fact that he determined everything before he created us everything that we would do everything that we would say everything that we would decide our eventual destination if it would go to heaven or hell and so on despite all of that Allah also gave us free will don't ask me how it works it's the Quran says it so but despite all of that Allah also guides and misguides whom he wills yes the Quran also says that another contradiction here Allah cannot guide and misguide whom he wills while giving humans free will humans cannot have free will while Allah Allah guides and misguides whom he wills the Quran also says Allah rewards those who believe and Allah punishes those who disbelieve but then it also says that nobody can believe unless Allah wants them to believe here again you are supposed to make the connection here between the two you are rewarded for believing punished for disbelieving but nobody can believe or disbelieve Allah unless Allah wants them to believe or disbelief which simply is incoherent and self-contradictory Allah also is the same god who sent the Torah and the gospel which are books that are described in the Quran which however do not exist in their actual form if you ask Muslims unfortunately the Quran is entirely ignorant about the contents of the Torah and the gospel which are a big refutation of Islam on their own it also claims that Jews and Christians were at some point guided but then they went astray it never explains how exactly and why exactly and when this happened finally everyone must convert to Islam otherwise we will of course go to hell it is our eternal duty to convert to Islam unless we were created for hell and it is Allah who created us for hell and we cannot believe unless Allah wants us to believe in which case we just have no way out if it doesn't make sense to you you are correct and finally the Kaaba is the first house built for Allah this is the Quran's claim despite the fact that we have no history of the Kaaba until the emergence of Islam Allah sent Muhammad as a final messenger not just as a messenger final messenger in this sense means there is no more messenger after him and Muhammad is supposed to bring the end the Quran also reminds us repeatedly that the end is very near and finally there is one hadith one authentic report according to Islamic sources to point exactly that out according to the authentic reports and this is testified by multiple sources a person asked Allah's apostle Muhammad when would the last hour come there upon Allah's messenger Muhammad kept quiet for a while then he looked at a young boy in his presence and he said if this boy lives he would not grow very old until the last hour would be established so according to the authentic source here Muhammad when asked when the last hour will come he looks at a young boy in his presence and says before this boy grows very old the last hour will be established I would not want to argue that this boy did not get old that he is still getting old that he still lives somewhere but we just do not know it is very obvious to me that this boy was a regular young boy in his presence Muhammad made the claim that the world would end before this boy grows very old and it simply did not happen which is why there is no reason to trust Muhammad based on all of the incoherence that you have just witnessed and based on the very clear evidence here that Muhammad is not very reliable as a prophet I conclude that Islam is false and with that I would like to say thank you and stay away from Islam you got to thank you very much for those openings gentlemen and I want to let you know folks if you haven't yet if you have friends who love controversial debates like this consider sharing this debate with them you can click that share button down below and that way you can help spread this neutral platform as our goal here at modern day debate is to provide a level playing field for everybody to make their case so with that we're going to jump into the six minute rebuttals Muhammad going first thanks so much Muhammad the floor is all yours for six minutes all right uh I'm I'm going to address the shahada at the end okay but I'm going to begin with all the other points that uh Ridwan here made and I appreciate that that picture you drew you know I'm sorry I hear yourself admit it something about that picture but uh so now the first thing that you're doing is you're making a difference between what God is and what Allah is Allah is just Arabic as you know Allah is Allah so God has many titles names which is ar-Rahman al-Samiyah al-Khabir they all start with al the ones that I said is the forgiving uh the hearing uh Samiyah uh and the knowing so if you're going to go with the point that Allah starts with al so the first word is the la is God so there's one God that's the same God that's feeding me and feeding you Ridwan so there is no difference between that God uh the other point that you made was the definition of Islam uh everyone isn't like their body is a Muslim it's them as a human has to uh like they have to recognize the fact that they've submitted to God because there's a verse in the Quran that says those are two verses that I put together so the first verse is everything in the skies and the lanes have submitted to God and then the other one is uh everything in the skies in the lanes have submitted to God willingly or unwillingly and a lot of oh sorry that one is so the other verse says that um everything in the skies in the lanes have already subjugated themselves to God and a lot of the humans okay so your definition of submission is lacking the other thing is everything in the Quran is true you said that yourself uh when God said uh he put his throne on the water is that where that's where he began creation and there's many theories that are backed by natural philosophies or I mean like natural sciences that say that you know uh all living creatures came out of water as God said in in the Quran uh all living creatures came from water so his throne starting on water kind of makes sense and everything is fed from water everyone is uh and that's another verse that's in the Quran everything is uh like everyone takes the same liquid which is the water earth is not uh the world the word sorry one second oh when God is talking about the skies and the land he's not just talking about planet earth he's talking about the actual lane that we're walking on so when when you're talking about when God created the earth and the skies he's not just talking about I mean the land in the skies he's not talking just about planet earth he's talking about matter and then he's talking about the the skies at that point uh you're right but you're making like you're you're you're having a fallacy in a sense where that you know that the heavens and the skies are interchangeable in English but in Arabic it's the same word which is cement uh the word of heavens is that's not accurate to what the Quran is saying because to us the heavens is the sky so God created seven skies and God is talking about the skies that's in front of you and the skies uh on the lane now your your argument about the flat earth uh God says in the Quran clearly uh the word is coming from like back in Arabia uh when Prophet Muhammad used to be around they didn't have chickens like we had today like the idea of the chickens they didn't reach the Arabian Peninsula they had ostriches ostriches that lived in uh Saudi Arabia at the time where Saudi Arabia is now and their eggs was an oval shaped like it's like the same shape as the earth and they would say that egg is like that's the same word that they described that egg is the same way they described the earth and actually people at the time of Prophet Muhammad would question them what do you mean like the the earth is like a egg shape like an ostrich egg shape which now we clearly see that it is so that flat earth concept was it is not accurate um so when God is saying he holds up the sky it's not he's not physically holding it up with his hands if I can't buy my mind say for example hold this pen up with my mind right so I'm the one who's holding it like you know just by just giving the thought like you know this this pen's hold it up and imagine my hand's not there God's doing the same thing with the sky he is consciously aware that the sky is being lifted up by him but it doesn't necessarily needs to be by his hand he's a God he can move you like move me from one side of this room to the other without anything being present for us to see physically um so now when you're saying that uh sorry I made a note but I had to write so much because you put so many uh points which I would like to talk about them on um meteor okay so the idea with the meteor with people know that when the big bang happened uh the stars didn't necessarily start shooting right away okay so there has been a time until it's like a fuse and when the star loses its energy that's when it becomes a shooting star and in one of the verses the gins that are hit by the stars which those stars are predetermined when they're gonna go so God knew that the gin is gonna come at that point to listen to to the higher uh like to the angels to steal the world but that star was already predetermined that it's gonna hit it was just the gin was there at the right time at the right place for that star to hit them so and the point that I'm gonna back up from the Quran and you know this verse when they the gins they sent themselves said we used to be able to sit on the skies and listen and now those who are trying to listen are hit with a star so there was a point where they were able to listen until that timer the fuse is up and now they're getting hit by stars so that they don't know what's gonna come they can't tell because the angels are able to foresee the future where the gin couldn't now the soon uh I would like you to see the verse when you're saying that the sun and the moon follows actually there's a verse in chapter 30 36 the saying that the sun cannot outpace them so like the sun cannot come close to the moon which is very clear as for the sun going from the the sun coming out of from the west that's a prophecy obviously that didn't happen yet but when it did happen when it does happen at that point it's too late for you but scientifically you could you we know that if the earth slows down in a certain speed at a certain rate like slows down its rotation at a very slow speed where people are not affected and falling left and right and earthquakes are not happening they can turn back and go the other way and the sun will start rising from the west so god with his ability can slow down the rotation of earth and started the other way and then the sunrise from the west and at that point your point is moon uh missiles uh yeah the predestined uh I wish I could remember what I wrote there uh unseen them gins are gins cause you emotions and thoughts uh the ideas of them stealing things and in in in uh in going into the physical world at that point they have a bond with god so you'll have open dialogue so you'll have a chance to address some of these other points Muhammad but just keep on schedule we're going to kick it over to Abbasid prophet for his six minutes as well go ahead Abbasid prophet the floor is all yours uh thank you so much well first off I want to say um so uh the opening statement that Muhammad made um I don't understand what it had to do with all with uh with uh whether Islam is true or not I think the opening statement was all about um Abraham was a good submitter liberalism is pretty bad and Islam is pure and nations are blessed but America tries to vilify Islam but religions like Islam uh and stuff like that you know prevail I really don't understand where exactly the argument here is that Islam is true and where exactly I mean we're on what premises on what arguments on what kinds of evidences uh do we build the idea that Islam is true in that opening speech I'm trying to look if we have a if we if we mixed up the title of this debate but I'm seeing here that it says is Islam true so I just don't really know what to respond to there Islam is uh the as a religion the religion that Muhammad started in the 7th century according to uh Islam it was started way before that it was the first thing out there uh according to us and everybody else it is a religion started in the 7th century uh delivered in the Quran which is according to Islam the authentic word of Allah which he directly delivered through an angel to Muhammad and everything that you read in there in that text has to be true in order for Islam to be true and the tenets of Islam are not just this is a good religion and you know others make try to make it look bad but it's not and so on so I really don't know what to respond to there but when it comes to the the the rebuttal that Muhammad just made first off I would not agree that Allah is the same god wait it's not fair you're talking about my opening statement I can't I can do whatever I want technically the rebuttals it's you can address whatever you'd like yeah so there's never any agreement earlier in terms of what could be addressed yeah so it's okay next time if you want to say what you want to specify what can be talked about but otherwise I gotta kind of let it let it fly yeah no no sure I understand all right uh so I would not agree that that Allah is by any means the same god of the bible or that he is the god first off we have to establish what other god is you can I can argue that there is something that created everything but I would have to really you know define that Islam defines its own god that god has a history that god says according to the Quran itself that he is the one who revealed the Quran and for whom the Kaaba was built for example Allah might mean el ilah and it might have formed into Allah which means the god but Allah is also the distinct name of the deity of Islam whereas the name of the Abrahamic deity for example is not Allah it is he actually has a name that is the tetragramaton which is Yahweh as we say it today or other some some people say Yehovah the Islamic god has nothing to do with that god the Islamic god simply adopts things from that god through Muhammad who didn't understand the biblical religion at all you said everything everybody is a Muslim even those who don't know I don't understand what the that point is supposed to convey the Quran says that only those who believe are Muslims and those who are not Muslims will go to hell you he you said that the verse about water is that the Quran merely points out that everything was created from water unfortunately that's a modern pseudoscientific interpretation and I see Jesus of the Quran that's not what this is about the Quran literally says that there was only water Allah's throne was above it then Allah created the earth and then he created the heavens now think about it if heavens refers not only to our sky but to everything to the entire universe then think about this for a second there is water right and Allah's throne is above the water Allah then create the earth for us and spreads it out and then he creates the skies meaning the universe all the galaxies and planetary systems and so on that doesn't really make sense because the water is is what we have on this planet unless you want to say that there is some eternal water that the entire universe is built on which is just a very strange claim to make I said that the sun and the moon follow each other according to the Quran in Quran chapter 91 I believe not sure which one that was I can check that later on I should have this for somewhere here he then said that the Quran clearly said that the sun and the moon cannot overtake each other I agree it does say that I just don't understand how that refutes my point is according to the Quran the sun and the moon follow each other they follow each other in reality they don't follow each other the sun is at the center of our planetary system the planetary system is built around the sun while the moon revolves around the earth so the sun and the moon not being able to overtake each other would not refute that point on the contrary would just support my point even further that the Quran paints a strange picture where the sun and the moon just you know are two balls in the sky that follow each other when it comes to the sun rising from the west yes I said it is a prophecy according to muslim belief according to Muhammad the sun will one day rise from the west but that again is distorted here by Muhammad he says that could happen when the earth just stops spinning and then you know it turns around but we have a very very clear report in which Muhammad explicitly describes that the sun actually every night goes to a place where it worships and asks Allah to rise again and one day it will not be given permission to rise and Allah will tell it to go and rise in the west that is the hebukhari 3199 and then that morning the sun will actually literally go back and rise from where it set which is an actual physical moving of the sun which is full of ignorance and when it comes to the Quran being like shaped like an ostrich egg the Quran literally just says Allah spread the earth it has nothing to do with an ostrich egg and no islamic scholar in the past interpreted as such except that we do it today thank you you got it and with that we're going to jump into open conversation following that we'll have short closing statements and then q and a this is a live debate folks so if you have enough questions you can at me in the live chat with your questions or super chats go to the top of the list and with that thank you very much gentlemen the floor is all yours for open dialogue ridwan i think you're failing on a point on what submission is and what islam is what is islam to you to you is that just believing in god and the day of judgment or believing in that prophet Muhammad is the that's the only key to be a muslim well according to islam you have to believe in Muhammad and Allah in the Quran in the last day you have to basically follow the religion called islam that's what being a muslim is okay so when moses said to his people like oh just like be patient while ferro is doing what he's doing to us and be patient and rely on god if you are muslims in the word that he said in kuntu muslim moon if you are muslim so why would moses call his people muslims because because the point that i'm making before before you give me your your understanding the point that i'm making is that muslim the word muslim has a standalone meaning prior to Muhammad do you agree there i completely agree with that but according to the according to to islam uh abraham himself i mean the Quran has a verse which says that abraham was neither a christian nor a jew he was a righteous submitter he was a muslim the word muslim is one who submits which comes from submitting to Allah but within the context of islam establishing itself as a religion from then on somebody who is a muslim is someone who submits to the true religion anybody else not so now i want to take you back to your point though you talked about the shahada because in chapter 29 of the quran uh it starts alif la'mim i have to pull it up to say properly but like in context it's saying that did the people who said that they believe they say that they believe did they think that they're going to be left and not tested like we tested those that are before them so like obviously the jews say they believed the christians say they believe and now we have the 21st century muslims that say they believe but god's very clear when we're saying that if we're just going to make the hypothesis that the whole quran is truth so anyone who's going to say he believes either as an individual or as a community they're going to be tested the same way those that were tested before them so now if you look at the before you tell me if you look at the most i mean the jews they have the Torah and then they have the talmud and they use the talmud to to explain what the Torah is but the talmud has more contradictions than the Torah and now if you look at the christians for example the christians have two things that happen also with the muslim community a paul the apostate came in he wrote a bunch of stuff and he attributed it to jesus which like it doesn't make sense for what jesus would say and wait sorry let me get to the point that i'm going to make and then i'll give you your time you asked for six minutes to talk let me just finish the point so now we have paul the apostate that was actually that was actually part of our format the rebuttal which you also i don't understand why we're talking about this right now okay well i'm trying to explain to you where the truth is in the quran and what a muslim is so god already said that he's going to test us like we were tested before us the jews failed because they put another things and attributed to god which was not true okay and then the christians did the same things they attributed books that were not from god to god right and it's very difficult to show them the wrong doings from muslim point of view but the muslims are fell into the same traps the same traps such as and these are the traps that you picked up on it doesn't mean that islam is not true it means what they're learning is not accurate to what's the teaching or what is being revealed in the quran i'll give you an example when someone draws prophet muhammad right the whole world goes crazy from the muslim nation and they go stand up from muhammad which is rightfully so they have to okay but if someone sits there and talks about no well for an hour and a half the muslim community is quiet yet the quran tells you do not distinguish between the messengers so that's that's a test from god that they're failing in and why because they're falling into the same categories where christians sit there and they talk about this the whole time we are in the open discussion section we are supposed to have an open discussion back and forth not to give long speeches i just don't understand what in the world does this have to do with the topic what why why are you bringing this up i i really don't get it because we're going back to the point what is submission to you what is why are we talking about that because i'm saying what people are doing in the 21st modern century is not aligning to what i don't care i don't care about that but that's what i never brought it up calling it a muslim that's what you're labeling as a muslim i'm telling you jesus okay but i i never brought it up abraham was a muslim a muhammad was a muslim so the people that what we're doing in 21st century what you're thinking is representing islam i'm showing you that it doesn't buy the chron okay i don't understand the point when did i ever say that islam is false because uh of the muslims today i i don't know what you're saying nothing to do with the topic at all what you're defining as islam is what started in the seventh century with the school of muhammad which in the first 200 years was the best school ever that the world ever seen you could see you could see the progress you could see the singularity there was a nation from spain all the way to afghanistan that was one big nation that succeeded but like every other curriculum that came before it corruption took a part and politics took a part and it fell apart that's normal that's how god tests us to see if we were actually being honest or not so so the the whole thing of your whole concept of trying to attack what people perceive as islam is in 21st century based on what happened after the seventh century that doesn't explain what submission is again what is submission did the entire my entire my entire point all my arguments all my premises which i basically really i didn't even put into i mean i i didn't establish like a whole series of uh you know premises and and and arguments and uh and therefore this and that i made it very simple i brought up things that the quran says things that the hadith say nothing nothing that i said nothing that i presented here it's just stuff that muslims randomly picked up and that is not found in the fundamental scriptures of islam so i am arguing that islam based on all the ideas that it offers in the quran and the hadiths is false because it says a lot of things that are self-contradictory or simply untrue it is as simple as that and people sometimes tell me that i'm doing a very uh i'm doing a very hard job i don't think it's a hard job at all i think i'm doing something very simple i'm pointing out that the quran and hadith have a lot of nonsensical claims which can be pointed out by very simply by anybody and i'm just doing that very simple job because nobody wants to do it and you are now here talking about how my image of islam is wrong or more of mutants is wrong because i'm interpreting but what does that what what does it matter what submission is because because we're talking of islam is true i'm not talking about 21st century sunnism and what people preach about islam i don't care about 21st century sunnism i care about the fundamental sources of islam the quran the hadith and the beliefs presented therein do you agree that i i say that if those are wrong then islam is false if those were all true islam could be true this has nothing to do with defining like it goes back to the point where you you're making contradictions of you not understanding the topic at hand because you do not know what submission is so for example when you're saying that people that god is creating people to go to hell it's not god created people to go to hell god created the people and gave them a choice and they're going to hell by their own choices they chose to be criminals okay so there is free will at play but because you have free will god is giving you the correct way to deal with that free will so islam is all about the proper choice to make at the right time when the decision needs to be made so when the ultimate question is is there a god islam is giving you the answer is if someone's upsetting me islam is giving you an answer islam is about being like we don't need to debate what honesty is do we we don't need to debate what awareness is we don't need to debate what justice is and this is literally what submission is is to submit to those things that further you in life so your idea of good topic good topic i want to ask you a question so i don't i don't believe i don't believe in islam right i i i firmly believe that islam is false if i die the way i am right now believing that islam is totally false and ridiculous actually then i would be by islamic standards condemned to hell and punished there in brutal ways that's what the quran says it's undeniable correct why do you why do you think why do you think i don't believe in islam well because you're saying well the fact that you're sitting here causing doubt okay but why do i not why do i not believe in islam you don't because you took those choices upon your own okay but why why did i make the choice not to believe in islam because you put yourself in the circumstances to cause doubt when you're causing tell you're more likely to fail so i put myself in the position to cause doubt i had doubts but right now i don't believe in islam right so i firmly believe that islam is not true i came to the conclusion that islam is not true right did you do that conclusion on your own what does that even mean did you make that decision on your own did you come up to that solution by your own yes someone force you as a as a as a human i questioned it didn't make sense to me and i concluded now that says this this can't be true so islam is okay and god and god did say to moses that he's making a test uh that the day of judgment is coming and i'm i'm about to like i'm gonna make it seem like it's completely concealed so you witnessed upon yourself today like if i'm writing your story ridwan today said that he witnesses that judgment day is not true islam is not true and that's the end of the story so you made that decision so now when judgment day does come around okay you made that decision why would you blame god for the decision that you had pretty simple doesn't the quran also say as i presented in the i think that there was actually a very uh you know big central part of what i was arguing there i i said that Allah created humans he determined from the very beginning before he created them what they would do he created humans just so they worship him and he created many of them for hell with one worship understand so what's the word so i so i want to ask you here um Allah creates me these terms carry on let's get to this point because the term is from the important that's the change of topic actually worship no no what's worship you're talking about god created you to worship what's worship to you what in uh right back if what's the mean if if there was a god if there is a god if Allah was true it would be to acknowledge and to serve him or to you know uh so what's the worship worship well i don't know what what do you want for me it's worship worship acknowledging and talking to him submitting to him that's it no okay submitting to god is one point serving god is is what worship is so okay as i said in my opening statement god makes a difference between a bad prayer and giving cherry he said they were only ordered to serve me to pray and to give charity so as you can see the prayer in in in giving charity separate to what actual worship is you're a human being on earth this earth is obviously in front of you you have a duty on earth to make this world a better place if you don't this is nothing to do with the topic but that's literally what islam is like it says nothing to do with the topic you're getting into these uh no no brother you want me you want me to define you you're defining islam in a different way you want to go into a political sense okay you just told me you just told me that if i don't believe in islam then i will go to hell i asked you and you and you confirmed that right so why in the world are we talking about the semantics of what worship is i'm telling you if i do not believe in islam today if i believe in islam is let's give a posse or have it go ahead of posse we'll give you a couple of minutes just to be sure there's no interruptions i today have the choice to believe in islam or not right believing in islam means i acknowledge that islam is the truth that this religion is true that a la exists that the quran came from him that muhammad is his messenger and all that stuff i choose however not to do that i say islam is not true the quran is not the word of allah there is no allah muhammad is not his messenger the things said in there are not the absolute truth it's wrong there are there are just there are two options here i believe in it and i worship and i become a muslim as much as i can or i reject it because i simply do not believe it we don't have to now establish what worship means what submission means and all that because this is what we are talking about the semantics are entirely irrelevant but i believe in it or do i not believe it i'm done i'm done i'm done it's fine i'm saying like how are you rejecting something that you don't understand so you're rejecting the quran you're rejecting islam you're rejecting faith you're rejecting the day of judgment if those are concepts you don't understand you're rejecting purely on equaling at this point that's i have no idea what that has to do with the topic and again i just don't believe that these things are true and why and therefore i'm a disbeliever that's it yes you you are a disbeliever but because you have not yet understood what the concept of islam is you don't understand the concept of islam if you're a slave of god when god told when god told abraham submit he said i submit to you are christians muslims uh if a if a christian stops saying lies about god and saying that three equals one or that jesus is god so okay so short answer short answer no they're not muslims are jews muslims no no no brother it's not a short answer even it is a very short answer christians do not do these things that you just said therefore they are not muslims very simple but but brother there is there is a first in the quran that stays multiple times who are the people who are jews of christians in a different sect of ibrahemic religion as well those that believed in god and did righteous deeds so they worked correctly okay they caused they they did good for the world they don't have fear nor are they troubled on a day of judgment i'm not sitting here to say that christians if christians did that they would no longer be christians they would be muslims so the question are christians muslims is answered very simply by saying you know they are not muslims we don't have to go into the rest of second question are jews muslims okay so what there is a difference between a muslim and a mu'min so there's jews that are muslims but they're not mu'mins they're not believers but we can't call them what we what you're defining as the seventh century islam because they haven't accepted the prophet because of a prophet comes from one you have to accept him but they're still submitted because like for example there's a verse in the quran that says don't say that you're a believer say that you've submitted and then when the faith comes in they're a believer so it's the same thing with the jews they've submitted to the will of god but they haven't believed completely it's like take for example someone who's a bodybuilder i can technically be a bodybuilder if i go to the gym and do one exercise and take the protein but someone who's more dedicated he has a better body and it's the same thing with submission in islam someone who's more dedicated in serving god is closer to the truth it's not all jews are going to hell not all christians are going to hell if someone is dedicating themselves to god and couldn't because of their programming and god is someone who's aware he can allow him to go to heaven i don't think all jews and christians i don't understand that there's anything to do with the topic um again i go to the point you don't know what submission is you don't know what islam is which has nothing to do with the topic um if you are a let's say that we are that we disagree about the uh the specific details of what exactly submission is i don't really care honestly uh what we are talking about is if you believe in this religion that we have or don't believe in this religion that we have if you believing in this religion that we have meaning not me means acknowledging its message and not believing it means not acknowledging but in fact rejecting its message denying its message i deny his message simply because i have a brain which Allah created according to the islamic religion with which i came to the conclusion that this religion cannot be true according to the islamic religion according to the islamic tradition and uh the quran it was Allah himself who determined way before he created me that i would with the capabilities that i have which are completely 100 in Allah's control come to the conclusion that islam is not true if i then go to hell for this and that means i basically go to hell based on what Allah decided for me long before he created me whether i make a choice in this life or not is entirely irrelevant because the choice that i make was by definition necessarily also determined by and decided by Allah long before he created me everything that i do was necessarily decided by Allah so actually everything is pre-programmed by God everything has a predetermination by God a predestination i'm sorry everything is predetermined by God and you made your choices so for example for me to to to to like put my hand in a fire i get burned okay i can't say God burnt me right because i'm the one who put my hand in a fire you chose to take the route that you had you always in any decision you have you have two choices you are the one who personally first took the choice to saying to cause self doubt to yourself that the Quran is not true and instead of fighting that doubt what you did you gave into that doubt okay let's say you put your hands in the fire right right now imagine that you are standing there and you put your hands in the fire literally let's just talk about literally but you have a warning before you put it there okay it burns it before you touch it okay you put your hand in the fire right when you put your hand in the fire is this something that Allah decided before he created you or is it something that is completely outside of Allah's decree no God decided that you have the hand God decided what you are able to do with the hand God decided what fire is God put the fire in front of you your decision that connection that's 100 up to you but God already programmed that if you do that connection this is what's going to occur think of it as a so I did not so Allah did not decide that I would put my hand in the fire God didn't order you God allowed you there's a difference I didn't I asked you I asked you again so I'll you're saying Allah did not decide that I would put my hand in the fire that's your decision that's your decision God God God decided to allow you okay and you made a decision to go with it okay can you answer my question did Allah decide that you would put your hand in the fire yes or no no that's your decision or action so Allah did not decide that means Allah did not decide everything that would happen before he created everything that means that means you are denied you're denying the fundamentals of Islam and denying one of the pillars of the Islamic faith you don't you don't understand what I mean by God yes exactly one second I'm saying to you you're not understanding what I mean by God didn't decide it God didn't order you nor did he push you to put your hand in the fire God decided what happens when the fire touches you God decided that you have the ability to touch the fire you made the connection on your own so when you go to hell you have nobody to blame except yourself it's not a hand in the fire no it is that's not what I asked or I didn't I didn't ask that Allah if God I didn't I didn't ask it I didn't ask if Allah programmed it or whatever it is did Allah decide that I would put my hand in the fire no was that was that a decision that he made was it determined by him yes or no no that means that Allah did not determine everything which contradicts with the uh with your decision with the with the with the pillars with the bases of Islamic faith wait wait wait I think you have a problem I think you have a problem with an assumption and determination so God already determined the world around you but God already assumed every single action that you're going to make and it's a godly assumption so it's never going to be wrong he determined the fire in front of him he put the fire in front of you he didn't determine it he it's like a sandbox in front of you okay he's the one who determined the laws that are around you he determined the the the the programming that's around you but you're doing you're the one who's putting the input well there's a verse oh well Masha Allah so if God willed we wouldn't have been worshiping the angels they're just making an incorrect assumption they're going to the they're connecting the dots incorrectly you have a free spirit you have a free will there's a programming in front of you whatever road you take the end result is no because people before you took the same road and went in the same path and took the same result you're simply distorting your own religion you're distorting your own script you're in your book the Quran says that Allah determined everything he knows everything he wrote down everything he decided everything and Muhammad says according to the hadith that before he created us he wrote down and decided our aftermath decided what we would do whether we would become wicked or believers whether we would go to hell or heaven and the Quran even says this is actually one of the one of the pillars one of the pillars of faith of iman you have to believe in that in order to be a Muslim according to the Islamic tradition and the Quran says let me let me quote it in fact the Quran says um that nobody will believe unless Allah wants them to believe correct it is it is not for one of you to believe unless Allah wants unless Allah wants you to believe this means wills wills inshah inshah it's not once inshah that is literally the same thing if you say if you say wanting to do something that's inshah no inshah means that the person put the right input so god because god said that if someone puts x input he becomes a believer it's not someone who's a criminal becomes a believer they have to put the x inputs so you have the choice to put in the pot what you're gonna eat you can't put in the pot uh like uh you know apples and then have a blueberry pot and that's what that means god wants you to be a believer then he's gonna put you in a situation for you to be a believer and it's up to you to decide to do it or not and everyone had that same choice what had they now in nash den we gave them the both roads so you in front of you there's always two roads right now and and i promise you this would want if you if you think about a contemplate and find a reason to believe in god and you go into the past of repentance which i think it's gonna be very difficult but but god is willing to guide you so so so let's so let's establish this uh i don't believe in Allah i don't believe in Islam because i came to the genuine conclusion that Islam is definitely not true right i with my capabilities with everything that Allah created for me with my environment my upbringing my brain the the the mind that i have the intelligence everything that i have i came to the conclusion that Islam is definitely not not true in fact i am so convinced by it that i find it an important mission on my behalf to go out here and to tell people hey Islam is nonsense guys it is false it's definitely not true look so with with everything Allah has given me i came to the conclusion that Islam is false simply really because i don't believe that it is true but i will be punished for that in the afterlife because i genuinely could not believe that Islam is true so that means that means i will be punished for being ignorant for being stupid or for being for being blind one of those things which by the way are entirely out of my control because i am purely the creation of Allah and he decides exactly my environment by bringing my brain and so on no because you'll be sitting in hell thinking to yourself you know what god gave me fame god gave me money god gave me x and x what did i do with it i went started i went on the chain of bigotry i went on the chain of hate i hated what god revealed to other people i didn't think it was from god so you made those decisions on your own it's not about so i spread hate against the things that god did because i didn't believe that they know you spread hate you spread hate against people who believed in god you know i first first of that's a lie but secondly even if i did do that it would be that hate but secondly it would it would be that it would mean that i spread hate against something that i believe to be definitely false not something that i think that i know is right but exactly the that you made the decision that it's false it doesn't mean that you're saying it's the truth yeah did i willingly did i willingly do something evil yeah at that point you're willingly doing it did i willingly do something that i know to be evil yeah because you took the choice on your own you're just not you're not empathetic enough to see the butterfly effect that you're gonna do because every choice you make has an effect that would mean i have to know that it is evil what i'm doing which means i have to know that islam is the truth and which is why i am spreading uh you know discontent or hate or whatever it is against it knowing that it is evil to do so but we are we just established that i clearly believe that islam is false and nonsensical and dangerous so it's it's nonsensical argument when you're saying there and that means when i refute islam when i refute islam or mock it or say it is dangerous that i am not doing something that i don't understand nothing how you're refuting something you don't understand can you please can you please let me make the point yeah that means that means i am refuting something which i clearly do believe is not good so i am not knowing and you don't understand exactly that means i am not doing something knowingly evil i'm doing something without knowing that it is evil that means i am not doing the time to listen it's here is here you're just contradicting yourself so many times within those within that one no the contradiction is coming from you not being able to listen your problem here is not the comprehension it's being able to listen to someone else you're making an incorrect choice someone's telling you you're making an incorrect choice but you don't like to be told you're wrong so you keep pushing along the same road until the pain hits you and then you're going to think about it again so it's i don't know what people are telling me that i'm wrong but what do you mean war existed before prophet Muhammad and after prophet Muhammad war is something that's normal in the day and every day life yeah it's not from that point we don't we don't need it today but what is this let me we don't need more today we don't need we don't need to war over people telling you that okay let's talk about some prophecies let me tell you about some prophecies in the Quran before we move on from that let me quickly please please let me speak for uh i'm completely put off again from that okay uh let me speak until i'm done here just a few seconds not more than a minute do you want six more minutes i just i just want you to reflect upon that oh you're offended because i uh stuck to my agreed debate format wow amazing so i offended i'm asking you if you six if you want six more minutes man like sounds it sounds weird i thought you were offended about that i don't know you could say the second time you bring it up listen so but so okay whatever so um i i asked you i clearly established that i don't believe in Islam because i know that it is false right i sincerely do not believe that it is true that means that whatever Islam tells me is good i don't think that it's good whatever Islam tells me is evil i don't think that it is evil because i don't believe that Islam is true i am 100 convinced that Islam is false whether i understand it or not is entirely besides the point now i sit here i'll give me i'll bring it to you in a different way didn't we just agree that you would let me talk until i'm done for less than a minute i sit here and uh attempt to refute Islam mock Islam and point out that it is dangerous but we just established that i don't know that it is true yet when i asked you whether i am doing something that i know is evil you told me yes how in the world does this work if i don't know that it is true and if i don't know that that this thing it is evil then how am i doing something that i know is evil because put put put the concepts of Islam to the side do you know what the hurt principle is for example nothing to do with the morality that Islam presents to us i would want to ask my question so yes or no do you know what the hurt principle is you mean the harm principle the harm principle sorry it's sure yes i know okay so Islam takes that next step it's not about the harm principle it's not just about causing harm it's about oppression okay so you are oppressing more than you're helping that's why you are a criminal it's got nothing to do with with with with Islam because as i said there's people who are Muslims before Quran before Muhammad but you're not understanding that concept you're going with why Islam is dangerous Islam like Prophet Muhammad school of philosophy is to eliminate temptation while Jesus's school of philosophy was to resist temptation in the long run eliminating temptation is a better better approach because if you have a bar in your city for example if you have a bar in your city and if you take the style Jesus took where you're going to go sit with the people who are drinking and trying to help them and trying to show them if you're not as certain ensure as Jesus in the long run you're more likely to follow the person who's who's hurting you okay but in Muhammad school of philosophy is that no we need to remove this bar from our community because this bar is going to hurt our community it's got nothing to do about like that person's individual it's about the whole community and i don't know what your like full-time job is and i don't mean this as a hit but there's certain things you like learn in life and it's how to manage a team for example so managing three people is one thing but managing a whole community is a whole different animal and so you're sitting there laughing you put yourself in a political position you're going to have to take means that for you it's not going to make sense but he's with all the with all the respect i really don't think that you understand to that you understand the logic here that you understand what is being said i really don't think that you can actually respond to what is being said because you don't understand it what you're saying what you're saying what you're saying is that using the my sincere my sincere suggestion would be my sincere suggestion would be after this debate if you want to find somebody who is not a Muslim not biased who is a probably a professor of i don't know debates of philosophy sit down with them show them this debate and tell them did i uh understand him or not what was the problem and let them let them criticize you they will tell you one thing you are not responding to anything that i said because if i repeat your if i repeat your point of view would that mean i understood you you did not repeat my point of view but look at this wait wait wait wait wait answer me if i repeat the point of view that you said no i just like you i just let you speak for a long time because i just didn't get it because i wanted to i wanted to we have to have one second i just want to jump in because we have to if both of you are speaking at the same time then they can't hear either of you so i just want to be sure we can we just gave ap a good amount of time so we can give you about a minute Muhammad to respond and then we'll go back to ap okay so ap is saying that my my my way of judging if someone is evil or not is through the Quran if he's a person that rejects the Quran rejects Islam right so him being like rejecting the idea why would he think that what he's doing is evil because he's not putting himself on the same standard that i'm what i'm what i'm seeing the world as to be is that correct i don't know if that's correct at all i'm so completely lost for words right now because i have this is the weirdest debate that i've ever had i'm coming to you but let me know you're expecting me to sit here and talk about Sunniism oh my god okay so let's let me let me say this again so you said to me that um when i established that i don't believe it is evil to criticize Islam but i asked you whether i'm doing something that i know is evil you said yes then uh when i said how can i know how can i do something that i know is evil if i don't even know that it is evil because i don't agree with its ideas and its concept you certainly started telling me about how Islam is more than just the harm principle it says not to oppress and not to do this and that okay fine everything wonderful but you only define uh criticizing Islam and thereby oppressing people as evil because it is your Islamic religion your Islamic philosophy which teaches you that it is evil to oppress uh people by criticizing Islam if i don't agree with your philosophy at all if i think it is complete nonsense and we don't need that then how in the world do i knowingly do something that is evil by criticizing Islam when in my philosophy it is not considered evil to criticize something that is false okay so at that point the point that we're we're at a that we don't have a common ground is is you're saying that Islam is false so you don't think it's an evil for you to criticize Islam exactly even though Islam itself is saying you that is an evil right yes yes so the concept here that the key word and i don't know too much about you Ridwan but are you a believer of any religion or are you an atheist i'm an atheist so in your world of you and i apologize and i i want to be as kind as possible an atheist doesn't have the concept of evil or good anyway because to you from what i understand an atheist has is we're just a bunch of atoms that are fucking put together and here we are kind of so like the concept of evil isn't something that you can compute nor can you calculate it nor does it have empirical values it's not something that you can measure so the concept of of evil and good isn't something that you can measure well that's purely purely because you're you're an atheist fantastic and don't take offense in that is that is that you're answering okay okay number one uh being an atheist has nothing about whether you have a concept of evil and good or not you can be an atheist which means you don't believe in god while following different philosophies which may or may not have a concept of good and evil so that is entirely besides the point but thank you secondly for making my point also if i according to you don't have a concept of good and evil then that means that i cannot know that it is evil to criticize Islam and to vilify Islam and to tell people that Islam is dangerous so how in the world can i be doing something that i know is evil and therefore be punished for doing something that i know is evil because now there's certain things that we don't need to debate which is honesty right so there's nobody talking here about like you know debating what honesty is we all know what honesty is it's being honest to yourself so if you are debating something that's hurting a group of people right like hurting them onto a point where you're getting death threats which i could see why you understand so that means you're you're causing a lot of pain by you throwing the first stone wow wow so so so so so let me get this straight i should know that what i'm doing is evil because i'm criticizing a religion so much that i get death threats which should show me that i know that it is oppressive and bad but you think when people preach Islam including that Islam should be imposed on us or that apostate i took it to the highest point hey there's no that is no hold on just to hear one at a time uh ridwan you're saying that Islam so for a muslim to be a muslim he has to kill you for apostasy no i have never i've never literally never said that and don't believe that i've never proposed the idea it has nothing to do with this at all so to you to hold on you said that muslims have to kill apostates right no i didn't say that then make your point again okay make make the make the point of apostasy one more time muslims believe many muslims believe that islam should be imposed that islam should be turned into a state religion that islam should play a role in in society which means it necessarily interferes with our lives and according to the islamic tradition it is also imposed that apostates meaning people who leave islam should be put to death the details of it are debated among muslims uh if if we if by your stand why are you going to the extremist why are you going to the extremist point of view as a as a as a way to this would probably understand me if you just let me speak for one goddamn time i apologize i apologize so by uh if we apply your standard and say i should be knowing that i am doing something evil or oppressive because i'm doing something so bad that people react to me strongly then we should also apply that same standard to muslims who want to establish islamic societies which are oppressive and authoritarian and to muslims which want to establish islamic societies where apostates like me are executed and we should then say that they knowingly do something evil which is why they should be punished for that that's what i'm giving everyone who's trying to establish that and where it's working tell me one country tell me one country where where islamic sharia law is like the islamic sharia law that sunnis should i tell you should i tell you one country that is uh in which islam plays a role in the government and which in which islam is influential not it plays a role in the government because even nowadays we could see the christiani playing a role in the government in a in a state country like america so tell me a country where okay what what is the etiology uh etiocracy sorry that is that is that is a ridiculous expectation to make why because the first the first caliphate the first islamic caliphate after prophet muhammad that was his theocracy that wasn't that was a political okay okay let's say let's take him for it let's take them for example let's take muhammad for example muhammad establish a society where islam should rule it should be the government right the caliph the caliphs after him established a caliphate which people now refer to as the rashidun caliphate the right the guided ones which are an islamic society which spread islam by inviting people or otherwise fighting them and spreading islam now islam rules the society right people are then under the moral laws of islam it must fully obey it but a lot of people are hurt by that so much that they would rather die than submit themselves to that which means how are you making an assumption which which means i'm sorry are you telling me that people uh that people lovingly said oh come come and make us more come take our country whether it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't the fact that you're talking on a uh on a general perspective like you have the voice for everyone that lived in those i i don't i do not i never made such a claim are there people did people's resist islamization are people resist yes but did they all put to death no okay okay okay fantastic was never my point if you listen to me that was never ever my point you told me it seemed like it was an oppressive nation and it was quite the opposite yes you are telling me that i am being oppressive by criticizing islam and the evidence for that is that i get death threats and i'm telling you but by that logic by that logic islam should be or those muslim societies should be considered oppressive because they spread but people resist so that means when if people resist and that should be evidence that the muslims are knowingly oppressing people this is your standard not mine you gotta look at reality push everything you gotta look at the reality someone is trying to impose a way of life at any point of time in reality even now right now in days we're trying to we're having a fight with wistern liberty uh liberty mentality liberal mentality so someone's always trying to impose a way so why won't we have the right in this game of chess to play our moves like everyone else is playing our moves being a muslim doesn't mean you're submissive to everybody means you submit it to god and it has nothing to do with the topic we're jumping to a something completely different again the topic the topic was the topic was the topic was whether i am knowingly committing evil or not that is the topic but it's hard for you to gauge what evil is when your sense of morality is very exactly exactly i don't believe that it is evil to criticize islam i don't believe that there's anything wrong with it i don't believe that islam is true i don't believe that islam is good you agree so how can i be judged by that standard then because i can go back to futra which is the natural aspect of the human being i have a i have an easy question for you there's a hundred thousand hundred thousand man-made religions in the world but there's one right religion and that religion is peace i'll agree do you agree no i don't you don't pieces away no that's complete gibberish okay you want to talk this is gibberish for you but now let me hit you with some verses the word sharia shara'a lakum min al-dini ma wassa bihi noohan shara'a god inscribed to you to you what he inscribed to Noah what he inscribed to Muhammad to abraham to moses and jesus to be one community upstanding one nation okay and do not do not divide and people who wants to cause division those are the criminals you and by your standards and by your standards that means we should impose islam because islam is world is peaceful and if we don't accept that then we are evil and i'm not saying we have to that is that is i mean i mean it is it is really funny and it is really funny that you don't see the irony of this do you think islam should play a role in the government do you think is a society should be an islamic society okay that that means you want to impose islam brother it's the understanding of what islam is i'm not going why what yeah yeah you see with one this is who are you calling on okay so you're saying oh my god who are you calling on it is it is how language works it's a figure of speech oh i'm sorry i'm sorry if you have difficulty understanding hold on one second this is the no that's that's not there's a point there's a gentleman gentlemen hold on just to be sure that we can hear both i said oh my god therefore islam is true see no you said oh my god therefore did you don't mean what you're saying so when i'm telling you you do not know what submission means is i'm the same thing you think you understand what islam is but you don't okay case in point islam is true because i said oh my god case closed and end of topic i lost islam is true i admit because i said oh my god yeah because naturally you're believing well but anyways what i'm trying to say is that something is a very simple concept you're picking up and choosing certain things in the quran that can be they can be answered to you which you choose not to accept but you're missing like a whole big portion of the quran when moses is called a muslim when abraham is called a muslim when god's telling you to ponder about the quran uh when when the when jesus is literally asking these people are you guys muslim so what's muslim to you what's islam to you because if you want to just talk about how shias and sunnis look at the concepts of islam trying to protect protect i mean sorry protect their communities from outside influences that's a whole different conversation okay what's the definition of islam you complained that an a a saudi uh preacher was arrested right correct what was he arrested for what does he believe in what does he advocate for he said that the people who are bringing in certain western ideas and making concerts to show that how feminine men is an okay principle in our community this is not what we've been taught and this is against what we've been taught and this is not something that we should be again okay with fantastic so um and and you feel very sad for this guy you think this guy had the right ideas he wanted to preserve an honest islamic society so let me just establish a few things and check with you if you are if you agree with that gotta go to the i gotta is this something that might fit in your closing statements it doesn't have to but otherwise sure whatever yeah sure let's jump into the closing statements ladies and gentlemen the q and a is coming up pretty quick right after the closings but first we'll start with Muhammad with your closing statement the clock is set for four minutes the floor is all yours i believe my opponent has a lot of hate and bigotry towards concept that he doesn't understand there are some valid points that he makes when how certain 21st century uh uh muslims approach the idea of uh muslims and they have extremist point of view which is not correct but for the last 20 20 years after september 11 my community has been undergoing a lot of demonizations we're in a position that's very similar to the jews pre world war two that are right now concentration camps like there are in china are set up that would kill a bunch of muslims most of the world wouldn't care because we have been demonized for the last 20 years you're adding to the hate you're not helping it but you as a person don't understand what muslim muslim is or islam is because when i'm asking you how is jesus a muslim how is moses a muslim how is abraham a muslim when the word definition of islam you don't know which is submission to god so sitting there talking about political differences and how we're trying to save our communities from certain influences that we don't agree with you're sitting there and buckling up real quick and you're going to certain things that don't matter in this conversation because the matter is people are getting hurt we are in a very difficult position in the world and the same administration that went and bombed iraq saying that they had weapons of mass destruction failed to produce the weapons of mass destruction that's the same administration that said that a bunch of muslims went and destroyed the towers on this very day 21 years ago and we've been under that radar under that gun for the last 21 years and for you to expect us not to be harassed and not to say something about it and not to act in extreme ways when we don't have the resources when we don't have that certain political power and dissuade in the world for us not to react to people who are hurting us and criticizing things that we very love it's not about insulting our mothers it's not insulting you're insulting literally the word of god to us and in whatever if someone calls himself god he's saying that he's technically saying that i'm worshiping him and if you're saying that what i'm saying is false that's fine but to you to sit there and make a mission about it to destroy us and what we believe in and at this point you are an enemy and this is how it goes this is what the reality is and welcome to the world my friend we'll jump in good job advocating for terrorism we'll jump into the closing statement for apostate prophet and want to remind you folks a couple of things in particular we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from whether you be muslim atheist you name it thrilled to have you here if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button and with that we're going to go into ap's closing statement first of i want to thank um hamit very much for uh briefly um advocating and justifying uh islamic terrorism for all of us here in front of our audience i hope everybody can sit here and look behind the disgusting face of playing the victim and see the advocacy for islamic terrorism for islamic violence which should be eradicated in this world uh yes i'm a bigot i'm a i'm a bigot as you can see i'm apparently a bigot therefore islam is uh true uh the closing here was all about a political appeal to please feel sorry for us because we are good if you don't feel sorry for us then we might hurt you and kill you sorry but that's just what we do uh unfortunately it has nothing to do with the topic which is islam true maybe we should have agreed to discuss the topic is islamic terrorism justified in which case my opponent would probably say yes and i would say no or he would say no because when we do it it's not terrorism but the actual topic of whether is islam true oh yeah despite the fact i also want to point out the obvious here he said that he talked about extremism and how we have a misunderstanding of islam and all of that whereas he clearly advocates for a society in which islamic law is established and all the people out here who are free who go for individual freedoms who enjoy individual freedoms would be oppressed and possibly put to death in brutal ways that's what he advocates for that is the original saudi arabian tradition that the saudi arabian preacher wants to go back to for which he was arrested because he is inviting these stupid concepts of freedom and liberalism and all that uh the west is heaven for muslims the islamic world is darkness for everyone who is not a muslim and also very much for muslims which is why uh half of muslims want to flee even if it is by uh illegal immigration yes i'm serious look at the recent polls by arab barometer so what it comes but when it comes to the actual topic of whether islam is true or not we can very clearly see that islam is false we have established it here uh Muhammad said ridiculous things the Quran says ridiculous things none of it can be justified Muhammad made a prophecy that the world would end soon it obviously didn't end and uh it cannot be uh opposed by a muslim apologist who instead sits here and wants to justify violence in the name of islam i think that says it all very much thank you everybody and stay away well by the way uh that was a close there was a closing speech that had that was a closing speech i was closing speech okay thank you i do want to jump in this one i if you want to address it i'm sure one of these questions will probably have something to do with the topic that you're wanting to address Muhammad and that's a perfect opportunity to get it in there but malavia thanks so much for coming by and for your super chat said hi james hi apostate prophet and thank you very much malavia glad to see you oh flameio says why is islam afraid of drawings of Muhammad ibn abdulla if he is the last prophet why did joseph smith get those gold tablets from god well okay just to quickly say that nobody knows the hour except god so if someone's saying that prophet Muhammad said that he knows the hour that's not true a b uh the reason that why we like there there is no the books that are talking about the moment books that are talking about god is giving jesus also uh divine attributes as well so it's not something that god would say it goes against what god said before while the quran doesn't you got a thing you're much for your question the muslim apologist says so the best argument ap has is disputing the metaphysical oh yeah apparently when i say that's that the sun and the moon don't follow each other the sun doesn't rise from the can't rise from the west one day that it doesn't go to a resting place that the sky is not held up because it does need to be held up that the earth was not created on top of water right but there are not seven and please be quiet that there are not seven heavens and so on that i'm apparently uh refuting the metaphysical which is just a horribly idiotic point to make all right and then when prophet Muhammad said well give me one prophet Muhammad when prophet Muhammad yeah it is when prophet Muhammad said that when people are pressing each other watch out when the sky comes with some clear smoke that's going to be oppressive to the people and it's a clear punishment to the people if we but we blow a bunch of nukes that god knows there were nukes on the world when those are blown up and the punishment comes and you guys can't breathe then you can see who's saying the truth horribly taken out of context Muhammad also was actually Muhammad was actually guys Muhammad the prophet was rightly guided by Allah and who knew the truth he was scared of clouds i'm not joking according to the authentic hadith authenticated by Islamic scholars whenever he saw a cloud approached it was like a little bit dark he would get very scared according to the reports and then he would say i don't know if Allah will bring us blessing or evil word this one from digit brawl ntp says iblis did the work with soul lure system amazing debate yeah totally yeah muslim apologist says ap let's not forget that your followers consist of those who believe that c splits into two and that literally god walked the earth hypocrisy what does it have to do with anything with the topic this one from the muslim apologist says brother Muhammad ap is pepper spraying you and says ask ap what he believes go ahead ask him Muhammad uh brother just asked him so he can answer on his own but it doesn't matter what he believes it's not like he's changing anybody's point of view this one coming in from digit brawl ntp says brother Muhammad i looked into that a sustridge situation it is about how ostrich prepares earth before laying eggs not the egg itself stop trolling this one from are they trolling i don't know frankel trullo says does Allah submit to his own will god doesn't have a gun daniel mere fard let me know if i pronounce it marin fard thank you very much for your question this one is do you believe that apostates this is for ridvan or ap do you believe that apostates should be killed no this is actually from Muhammad do you believe that apostates should be killed per religion of peace yes or no uh so for me if a person the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion so if a person wants to turn away and i can show you of many verses where the Quran saying like uh you know they're they keep fighting you until you turn away from your religion and those who die who are not believers uh their their works in life is worthless and they have eternal punishment but it doesn't say that they were killed they just died so that's that's another proof that you don't have to kill uh people but in cases with ridwan where it's like you know he left islam that's his choice god will deal with him but then he's now being an enemy while he's inciting hate and causing problems that's that's going to hurt me my community in my family yeah at that point he's a target i'm going to fight him how he's fighting i will i hope the west becomes a place where your laws for others are applied to all of you yeah what do you think what do you think about what do you think when i say this what do you think when i say this i wish that that would be nice i don't i don't believe i don't believe i don't i don't you're telling me i don't i don't believe it i don't care what you believe i think i believe west is the west is amazing the west is amazing because it is a peaceful wonderful place even for even for ungrateful disgusting horrible creatures like yourself will advocate for such horrible behavior creature hate why don't you admit it to me hate do you think i have hate you're fucking a hundred percent all right we're gonna jump to the next question uh james i'm i'm j james i'm done here i'm done here i will not and i think i think it will be fair if when i leave he leaves too and we do not go on without me why i'm fair i will i will i will not i will not he's talking about the west and i will not entertain just for me i will not entertain an advocate of terrorism and violence where somebody's of somebody's sitting here and basically threatening people like me and saying stuff like new and saying stuff like they said fight you how you're fighting lots of violence should be applied to me no i didn't say otherwise i said fight them how they're fighting you're fighting with a lot of words i'm fighting with a lot of words or do you think do you think do you think apostasy laws should be established yes or no do you think people like me yes or no i think people like you should be fought with the way you're fighting you want to talk a lot of bullshit i'm gonna talk a lot of you think people like me should be killed in an Islamic state? Yes or no? I would repeat it for the third time but it's not what you're listening okay but you're not liking what you're hearing so you want to sit there and take a fucking point out of me that I don't believe in. I ask the question once again. I don't give a fuck what you think. In an Islamic state, in an Islamic society, should people like me be executed yes or no? You're exiled? If you want to fight us? I'm gonna fuck you up the same way you're fucking us up. Very simple. All right. So if you're gonna come with swords and guns. So you did not answer the question. I did. If you come with me with guns and guns and guns, I'm gonna come with you at guns and swords as well. But if you're coming here with words, I'm coming to you. Where do you live? Where do you live? Do you live in the West? You live in the West? Okay reported to the FBI tonight. Thank you. Go ahead. Go ahead. It says V. Go ahead. Hold on. James James James James James. Let this person know. Let this person know. James James. I hate to mute you but just to restore order. So hold on one second. So okay. So. No. Okay. Wait. Hold on. He said that if you come at him with weapons, then, you know, he would do the same. So that's if there's something I missed. But I do want to he told me he just told me that he would find me. No, she would find me wherever I am. It's not what he what he just said. He would come at me with guns fantasia. What the hell are you talking about? Just chill out. Chill out. I honestly, I can't hear. Can I say what it is like a problem with my hearing? What the hell is this? Where did you find this guy? Let's say I have like mental problems. What is wrong with you? We have to go. Let's just. I don't think so. I mean, I mean, everything is here on record. We will report this to the FBI right now. You can go ahead. I said friends who meet up with me. I have just said, listen, you want to talk about this. I have been in the States and I have been to the courts in the States for 10 years. I've been. I've been anyway. I'm not going to tell you more questions. We can wrap this up. What kind of a fucking conversation is this? I tell you, I will. No, you guys, please. Whatever he throws at me. I will throw at you. That's all I said. Whatever you throw at me. I will throw at you guys. You guys can play. In Allah. This person, this super chatter is on your side, Muhammad. They say the atheist is losing badly. Gerald Duckworth. So we're looking for more substantive questions than just someone. This Gerald Duckworth says religious faith is pretending to know what we do not know and Batman is responding. Atheism is pretending to know what we do not know. We're looking for real questions. Mat Mat says, created with functioning brains and asked to believe in poppycock. I don't know what that means. Al-Flamios says, did Allah determine the text of this super chat or did heiress? E-R-I-S. James, James, thank you so much. I don't have the nerves to sit here anymore. Thanks. I feel that way. Can you please shut the fuck up? I'm trying to talk. I'm trying to tell somebody something which has nothing to do with you. Okay. I'm saying I'm saying. James, James, I respect James. All right. Oh my God. Okay. Thank you. I'll talk to you later. Recording stopped. Well, we're going to go through these questions. At least the ones for Muhammad to honor your questions, folks. This one coming in from do appreciate it. Frank Otrula says, why would Allah create beings? He knows who would go to hell. He set everything in place and knows how it would all interact. A cringe move. Okay. So at the same time, you have the free will to make a decision. So you have the will to make the world a very good place or to make the world just good for you. And if you're working for the greater good and for the world, and then that point, you go to heaven. And if you're working just forward towards yourself, you're getting your reward here. So you made your decision. You built your own hell. This one coming in from digital brawl NTP says X. Let's see. Alexander says he said people used to ask the prophet about the verse, meaning earth is egg shaped. Can you show just one quote from that time? Sure. And then he says, can you show any tabs here seeing that verse refers to the earth being egg shaped? I think that may have been it for AP. This one from digital NTP says, Mike says, why did Allah deceive Christians and let Bible become corrupt? It wasn't a deception. It's the fact that they made their own decisions again. When the truth was revealed to them, they chose to do something other than that. And God always said in the Quran, وَلَوْ لَا كَلِمَةَنْ صَبَقَتْ مِنَ اللَّهِ لِيَجْلِ مُسَمَ لَا قُضِيَّ بَيْنَهُمْ بِالْحَقْ. The God that answers has already been given to them. So whatever they're disputing about when it comes to Christianity to come to Judaism, even in Islam, like modern day Islam, the things that they're like having problems with, the truth is already there in the book for them, but they have to read it and when the truth is revealed to accepted. And there's a verse that also says that like the people of the book, animals, is like when there is a dispute to bring it to the book and let God decide to judge between us, because God obviously judged everything in the books. So God didn't, they got misguided on their own and God pushed them into their misguidance, because that's what they work for. So that's what you do. What you put in the box, what you're going to eat. Now this one is, so if I understand right, are you saying that the earth is egg-shaped? Yes, I believe. Well, like if you look at an ostrich. The only reason I ask that is because, okay, then I misunderstood, the last question was not for AP, it was for you, and so is this follow-up question. They say the fact is, quote, Daha in Arabic equals spread flat, not that the earth is egg-shaped. Muhammad won't find any classical scholar who says that he is either ignorant or lying. Okay, I'm not ignorant or lying, but the classical scholars didn't see pictures of NASA to see exactly how the world is round, but they did understand the concept of what Daha is, because they would talk about ostrich eggs and use the exact same word. This one coming in from, Oliver B. Perez is for Muhammad, how do you know God is not lying to you? How do you know he's not exploiting your limited perspective? Okay, so for me, how I know God is not lying to me is by judging what's going on around me. I don't find my success as material gains, I find my success on how much good I'm giving to the world. So if I'm standing up for the oppressed, if I'm helping my parents, if I'm being as honest as I can, even against my brothers, even against my own family, that way I see the benefits for me as a human being. It's like going to the gym and your body gets big, or you follow the rules of submission to God and your soul gets big. Sorry, just to sidetrack to answer that question, the way I know it's true is like that hope experiment of the gentleman that did it in the 1950s where he put rats to tread water and after 15 minutes all the rats drowned, but then the second time around, the rats were going to drown, the guy saved the rats and then put them in the water again and they would tread water for 60 hours, 80 hours, which was like 200, 250 times more than what they did. So my faith in God, my faith in God is allowing me to hold on to the rope a lot longer than other people. Franko Trullo says, why would Allah create beings He knows who would go to hell? He said everything in place and knows how it would all interact. You asked that question. Oh, sorry about that. This one from... It's not a problem. Appreciate your question. Did you brawl NTP? Oh, I got that. They said they're happy that you stayed and then this one... Let me see. I think there was maybe one more for you. Franko Trullo. I didn't... He's the one who said, oh, where do you live? So I thought he was asking me and then the second thing is... Well, let's not... While he's not here to defend himself, let's not even address it. I know. This one coming in from Franco says, if Allah is omniscient, does He know you were diverting the debate topic? No, I was talking about what Islam is, but my opponent had a problem defining what Islam is. Move to the next one. Alexander says, the fact is... Got that one. I think that might be it. Did I miss any questions, folks? Let me know if I did. Otherwise... Well, wait. There are actually several standard questions that came in earlier. This one coming in from... Low Earth Surfer says, for Muhammad, the earth is an obloid sphere, not an egg shape, because an egg has a small and large end, namely, endians. The earth doesn't have endians. Why is the Quran wrong on this? Because you look at an ostrich egg. Look at an Arabian ostrich egg. It looks like the earth. It doesn't look like the typical chicken egg. Got you. This one coming in from... Do you appreciate your question? Magnificent Prophet says, according to Muslims, Allah guides who we will. Did Allah not guide A.P. back to him? Well, because A.P. made the decision. So when God is saying how He willed, it's already been willed. So you have to put the right inputs to get to the guidance. So if someone's giving you the truth, you have to really be aware and think about what you're saying and make the decision. Sometimes the decision's not as clear, but we don't know it all. And that's the truth about what Islam is. God knows it all, not us. So sometimes things won't make complete sense to us, but you have to give in to what the truth is. You got it. A.P. friends, he says, you did not ask my question. I don't know if I saw it. Let me see if it's in this list. Otherwise, I just want to at least make sure the ones that I got both earlier in the standard questions in chat from Muhammad to you. I think we had talked about this. Oliver P. Perez, we got that one. Alexander says, show any verse from the seventh century saying that the earth is egg-shaped. Okay. So I'm going to go into the lexion and it's called the Arabic Edward lexion and look at the word tahaha. You'll see that they would refer to the ostrich with the same meaning. In the meantime, folks, both of our guests are linked in the description. You can check out those links right now. That includes if you're listening via the podcast. We put our guest links in the podcast as well. If you didn't know that modern day debate uploads all of our debates to our podcast, it's 100% ad-free. Hey, it's convenient. Let's say you're going through town and you have some data. You have a bad spot where you don't have good service and so your data doesn't work and you're like, I wish we would have downloaded this earlier. Well, you can with the modern day debate podcast available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify and every other podcast app out there. No joke. As well as if you haven't hit like yet, we have 520 people watching. We can easily get to 300 likes. We are at 252. So if 48 people hit like, we'll crush that 300 goal. Appreciate your support. Especially if you thought that your position was more persuasive tonight and you want more people to see it, YouTube will recommend this video more as that's a factor in the algorithm. If you hit like, therefore more people will see your side victorious on an equal or neutral platform. Do you have that verse? Yes. It's not a verse because we're talking about the definition of the word. The word is Daha. So it's in Lane Lexion, Edward Lane's Lexion, translates Arabic words into English. And I believe it's in the volume three on our book one, you could say on page 857. And the word is says Daha. And it says also said of an ostrich egg. He explains and made it wide with a foot or leg and in place where he was about to deposit his eggs. So it's the position. And other places. The place of the lines of the eggs. So that's and that's the hatching there of the ostrich. And then later he's going. Sorry. And it's the position. Sorry. It's not the position. It's the likened of Daha of the ostrich. So it's like the position of where the ostrich is putting its egg. And it's also referred to the egg later on. This one coming in from do appreciate your question. Franco Trujillo says, Yo, Mohammed, you know, you can construct a moral system separate from God. Don't you? No holy book and thousands of religions and opposing denominations are needed. In other words, I think they're saying you don't. Right. You can. You can. Sorry. I don't mean nominations. I apologize. So yeah, of course, like people can go through rational fight and go through morality debates and go through all the hard work of understanding what's the best way to make a moral system or take the clear guide that's right there in front of you with that. Okay. This one coming in from do appreciate your question from Digi Braille. Digi Braille. NTP says Mohammed in the context, how people spoke bird ostrich, they would refer to the process how ostrich prepares the earth bad before laying eggs. So can you say it again? This one, they say in the context, how people spoke or said the word bird or ostrich, they would refer to the process of how ostrich prepares the earth bad before laying eggs. Sorry. I'm not following what you're saying. I don't understand it either to be honest. I don't know if I've ever heard that before, but this one coming in from, I think that might be it. So I want to say folks, both of our guests are linked in the description. Highly encourage you. You can check out those links. Like I said, including if you're listening via the podcast. Also, like I said, if you have not hit like, we have crushed it. We have gotten 20 likes since then we're up to 270. If you thought that your side was more persuasive in this debate, more people will see it if you hit like. No joke. YouTube factors that into the algorithm and that will mean it will be recommended to more people here on YouTube. With that, I want to say thank you to both of our guests. I'm going to be back in just a moment with an update on upcoming debates. You don't want to miss them as they're going to be amazing. And someone told me that I didn't check Twitch. So let me check Twitch in case any questions over there as well as want to let you know, as I mentioned earlier in the debate, if you happen to share this debate, that's another way that you can make sure that more people see this debate. And demagogue 69 says they're going. Let's see. I didn't see any questions. Let's see. These just look like they're making. I like I apologize, but I feel like my opponent didn't know what submission in Islam is. So maybe maybe next time we can make it a little bit more interesting. I just don't see any of these questions being. Okay. They said my core question was, can Muhammad clarify about Abraham and Jesus being Muslims? What about Buddha? Pascal's wager. How does he know Islam is the correct and final revelation? What guy asked the same thing about Mormonism? Is that whole one question? Yes. We'll start with can Muhammad clarify about Abraham and Jesus being Muslims? So right. So Islam is the submission to the will of God so that I can make a decision, but not necessarily that my decision is always correct. So I'm going to go with the decision that what God inspires me to do or told me to do or command me to do. And Abraham and Jesus and Moses and David and Muhammad were very good except peace be upon all of them. Are all a great example on how to achieve that state of mind. So it's like, for example, it's like, oh, I'd like to eat some ice cream or I should pray because it's the time of prayer. Most people would go like, you know what? I'll eat ice cream and then go pray, but someone who has more loyalty would go finish his prayer and not eat ice cream because white sugar is not good for you. Alexander says, Muhammad is twisting the lexicon's meaning with those verses on the earth being egg shaped. You know what? To be fair, to be fair, there is twice that the word ostrich has been showed up and it's, and they are correct. I am conceding in effect, metha is the place of the eggs of the ostrich, right? And then the other place, which is talking about just the egg, it's like it was made wide like the egg of an ostrich. That's the other place. So I could see where the confusion is, but to me, to me, it's God doesn't, God's saying that the earth is spreading it. It doesn't mean he said that it was flat, you know? And you guys are going into such certain details, which to you is like disqualifying all the Quran, but you're falling onto like little details that are explainable and there's people that can explain it better than me because it's such a vast language and to translate is difficult, but you guys are missing the key concept of the Quran, which is awareness, equality, justice, being truthful, even against your own brothers and families to standing up to the truth, to fight oppression, to pray so that you don't oppress people too fast because it's good for you to feed the hungry, to take care of the orphans. That's the concept of Islam. This one coming in from, do appreciate it. It just came in. Yeshua de King says, Lane lexicon is not saying Daha is egg shaped, but speaking to how the ostrich flattens the earth. So again, the Quran is still wrong. Okay, but I don't understand how the egg when it's made into a nest, how that's being flattened, it's being put into a little cubicle for it to put its egg, like a little round shape. Look at all the nests in the world. No one makes a flat nest. So the point stains and I already conceded the fact that it wasn't talking about the actual ostrich, but it was talking about where it puts the ostrich, which again looks like how the world is from the bottom. You got it. Wow, I want to say thank you very much folks for being around. I'll be back in a post credit scene, letting you know about upcoming debates. So stick around and thanks very much to our guests. As I mentioned, we will see you at the next debate as we have several more coming up this week. Sure. And they're going to be amazing. God bless you, James, and hola. Amazing. We hope you feel welcome, folks. No matter what walk of life you are from, we are thrilled to have you here. And I've got to say, in addition, my dear friends, first, let me say hello in the old live chat. Gene Lorette. Thanks for coming by. Am I pronouncing it right? Let me know. Gingerbrel NTP. Thanks for your question. This is Antarctica. Is the age of the nest? I don't know what that means. But Nikki, glad to see you here. I see you there in the old live chat. Vu, thanks for coming by. We hope you're doing well. Shrouded Grove. Thanks for coming by. Good to have you here. J.P. Junior. Thanks for coming over to modern day debate. Hadi asala. Thanks for dropping in. We are at 291 legs. Amazing. Thanks for all of your guys' support. Seriously, it does mean a lot. As we are striving to provide YouTube with a completely fair and neutral channel, we want to be right down the middle. We want to give everybody a fair shot to make their case on a level playing field. That's what modern day debate is all about. And we hope you feel welcome. Whether you be Christian, atheist, Muslim, agnostic, you name it. We're glad that you are here. And want to say, we appreciate all of your guys' support in the many, many ways. I've got to say you guys support this channel in many ways. So, for example, seriously, just hanging out here at modern day debate, just watching the streams or the video on demand after it's in our modern day debate library really does help a lot. No joke. Because again, the YouTube algorithm factors that in. It looks at what videos you like, such as the ones that you watch here at modern day debate. And then it looks at other channels that have similar liking, or you could say likes, in terms of what they watch. And then they recommend modern day debate to those people that have similar, because they profile as yours on YouTube. So, for real, even that really does help. So, we appreciate you supporting us being here with us at modern day debate as well as. Yes, it's true. Hitting share and sharing this debate. If you have friends out there, if you're like, man, I really thought that my side one, I've got to have people see this debate because it's a neutral channel. Oh, well, one side one because the moderator jumped in, or something like that. No, no, no. Here, it's fair as it can be. Fair and square. That's the old phrase. It's been a long day. I'm pretty tired. But I want to say swampy pubes. Good to see you there. It says, what's up, James? I hope you guys are having a great night. And I caught the end of it spicy. Thanks for coming by. Nikki, good to have you here. Living Room Speaker is glad to have you back. Master Docs. Glad you came by. Karzan Sarabi. Thanks for dropping in. Russell Gibson. Glad to see you again. Jeremy Nolan. Good to have you back. Helios. Glad you're here as well as senior SEO specialist. Thanks for dropping in. Kai H. Thanks for coming by. Paul and Nolan. Glad to have you all over B Perez. Thanks for coming by. James, we need Aaron back, man. I will invite Aaron. We'll see. As well as iCypher23. Thanks for coming by. DodgeShadow99. Thanks for dropping in. Appreciate your super chat. ApostateProphet says, James, I appreciate your channel. No disrespect to what you do. I can endure the pain of the opponent. But I don't have to tolerate such horrible behavior and hate. I want to say we hope you feel welcome, folks, no matter what walk of life. I have no hard feelings, ApostateProphet. In terms of sometimes people leave early. It's not actually that uncommon. So, I want to say, we appreciate... I've got to tell you guys, the truth is this. I'll be real. The debaters are the lifeblood of the channel. So, we're thankful to have the debaters on. And I've got to say, no hard feelings of ApostateProphet. As well as, thanks for coming on tonight. You can find both of our guests linked down in the description, folks. So, if you... For the first time, you were kind of like, for the first time, I actually was exposed to so-and-so. Well, you can find their YouTube channel down below. Jimmy Kebab. Thanks for coming by. James, what's your workout routine? I need to get swole. Also, love the debates. Keep doing what you do. Thanks for your kind words, Jimmy Kebab. And I love to lift weights. It's a great way to just blow off steam, handle stress. It helps a lot. So, I really do... I do enjoy lifting weights. Although, I've got to say, I don't know. Do whatever you enjoy. You know, if you enjoy running, in fact, it's good to lift, but cardio is even better for you. So, if you enjoy cardio, more power to you. Do what you enjoy. Salty kitten. Thanks for coming by. We hope that you are well. Franco, true hello. I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for dropping in. Want to say, I should go. It's actually getting kind of late here. So, I've got... I'm trying to get into an earlier schedule of falling asleep. Want to say, thank you guys for all of your support. Thank you guys in every way for making Modern Databate as amazing as it is. As you guys, seriously, it really does mean more than you know. I see you there in the old Twitch chat. We've got four people watching Demagogue 69, as well as Granny, Scammer, Crusher, 42069. Alice in Wonderland. Oh, Alice in Wonderland. I see you there in the old Twitch chat. Thanks for dropping by. And our little buddy Stardust is streaming. I forgot how to do the raid thing. Wow. How does this work? You do like raid slash stardust forward slash stardust. How do I do the raid stardust? Tell me the secret. But yes, we do appreciate stardust. Our little sister. We love her. That's it. Okay, let's see. Forward slash raid. Okay. Stardust is watching on Twitch. Humor me and go check out our Twitch. And that way we can raid stardust stream. Stardust is like, I seriously just she's funny. She makes me laugh. She's like, how do I do this? I got to do it on our Twitch. Okay, so let me, let me figure this out. I just, I have said it before. Stardust is YouTube's favorite daughter is she is funny. Okay, ready? So we're going to raid viewers and Twitch. Oh yeah, we're going to raid. It's going to be a tremendous raid. It is going to be gigantic. And want to say though, for real, we stardust is a regular debater and panelists on the show. We appreciate her. She's funny. I just, I can't help but watch her face and just how she responds to like controversial stuff. It's just funny. I'm entertained by it. But yeah, want to say JP Junior, thanks for your kind words to my super chat comment. Let's see. Kudos to Muhammad and let's see. I don't, I just don't want to fuel that fire in terms of like the conflict. I, let's see. They said morals aren't just verbal claims rather, but I want to, this, here's the thing is I don't want to fuel that conflict because the way that conflict, the way I see it is it is what you make it. If you're, if you see it as like I'm, you know, we'll never forgive over this. I'm angry over this. Then how do I go? Let's see. Then, you know, if you do that, then what I was saying was man, I'm so tired. I should go. But what I was trying to say was I'm so tired. Bear with me guys. Oh yeah, yeah. I don't want to fuel the fire of like the conflict. And you know, at the same time, I don't want to you know, don't consider here in the chat, if you get an argument with somebody or whatever, wherever you get in an argument, I would always recommend it's good to say like, man, you know, water under the bridge. Like, and you know, not, it is how you interpret it is what I'm saying. Community of God, thanks for coming by and said AP said where do you live and Muhammad says I'll find you. That's true. Like, and I'm not joking. I will be serious. I know that I sound drunk Jean. I'm really that tired. It's because I had too many admit so many carbs. Now I'm having like a crash. If that's true, then I agree that would be weird. And it would sound very threatening. I honestly didn't hear that. I'm not saying it didn't happen. If I would have heard that, I would have said like, hey, this is getting like super like, because YouTube won't allow like terms of service so if you time stamp me, if there's something like that that was inappropriate, that violates terms of service such as threatening somebody for real, give me the time stamp. I'll go back and then I'll handle it because I honestly, I just if there was something like that, I didn't hear it. So I'm not trying to take any sides. I will follow the terms of service for YouTube, like Malik Sarah Brigh Thanks for coming by. Glad you were here and let's see here. V. Thomas, thanks for coming by. And then Astro Optics says, James is the only person I know who gets drunk from a soy latte. That's funny. And Alexander Hollett, oh yes, says, what are the next debates? So we're working on a panel Is there a war on women for this Tuesday? We're also working on a debate, is diversity good this Wednesday? So a couple of political ones that we're connecting or putting together as well as Thursday, we're hoping to have a debate on the flood of Noah, possibly and or whether or not Christianity is true. And if we don't, then we'd actually probably release a Muslim versus probably Muslim versus Christian debate from the vault because there are we have a lot of question or debates in the vault then Friday we might have a flat earth one that's still up in the air and then converse might host T jump and Ken Ami on Christian ethics versus atheist ethics on Saturday. So we do have a pretty good amount of debates coming up. But like I said, it's getting late. I gotta run. I love you guys. Thanks for your patience. Thanks for all of your support. And yes, if you haven't yet thanks Russell Gibson for your kind words in the live chat. If you haven't yet check us out on your favorite podcast app because we do put our debates on the podcast you can open it up right now if you have your phone. I know a lot of you guys watch through your phone. You can open it up and you can find all of our debates on there as well as if you haven't yet you could rate us give us feedback on the app. So I want to say thanks everybody. Love you guys. I hope you have a great rest of your night. Keep sitting on the reasonable from the unreasonable. We'll see you next time. Thanks guys. Love you. I hope you have a great rest of your night.