 This is the OGM check-in call for Thursday, March 3rd, 2022. Grace is in a coffee shop learning that getting a car and trying to get gas in near Eastern Europe is probably not going to go very well. So nice to see you. Great coffee shop in what city? It's Medvoda near Slovenia, near Ljubljana. But yeah, getting a car is really a huge challenge anywhere in the world these days. I don't think that's restricted where I am. The petrol isn't a challenge yet. Rental rates in Berkeley were up three to five times average rates about a month ago. Three to five times you mean three to five X? No. Three to five X, $150 a day for a compact, it hurts. Oh, okay. And I'm used to paying like 30, 40, 50. Right. Yeah. And they had all sorts of bullshit reasons for it. Well, things like supply and demand. I guess. Pete, thank you. Here we are. So behind me, you see a collage made by our Pete Kaminsky, or the world's Pete Kaminsky who happens to bless us with his, his skills. And so these are thumbnails of zoom calls from OGM over the ages and a couple other groups, collected up and collaged. It's awesome. So it's kind of like recursive. I don't know. We might, I might get, I might get sucked into one of the zoom windows and then all bets are off. That would be cool. Wouldn't that be cool? That would be awesome. You know, zoom needs a couple of special effects. I've really wanted it. Absolutely. From the beginning of lockdown, I've wished that zoom had like a confetti drop for everybody. So you could hit like, like you could hit the magic buzzer and everybody in, in the zoom would get a big confetti drop. That'd be kind of cool. You could also have people like go into a vortex and like swirl down the toilet in the middle of their zoom. Well, you could also touch a piece of the wall behind you and pop into Jerry's brain for that call. Exactly. Or I could just touch, touch the edge of the wall here and then show up in Pete's and Pete's zoom, because he's happens to be next to me. It'd be cool to do like illusionist tricks with zoom. There's a couple of people on YouTube have been doing like video illusions really well, like they just keep getting better and the anti kept keeps getting higher. So hi everybody. Good morning. We've had a crazy week. How many days since the attack started. Eight. Eight. You're in day eight. It's completely nuts. There is a matter most channel for emerging information about the Ukraine situation. Which we should post to the chat. And. And let's go. Mark Caronza. We don't have both marks on the call, but still I'm so habituated now. Let's go. Mark can bill for chickens for start. Good morning. Not much of a check in. Kind of focusing on mental health stuff. The mental health. The San Francisco mental health association has a buried in treasures course about collecting. And both my parents were hoarders. And certainly at times of stress and struggle. I might event some kind of slight messiness around the house. I've been to Mark's house. I can go for that. So, you know, focus on what you can focus on. And, you know, paying attention to the news a little bit. Really trying to pay attention to how to. Take. Digital things. In the world and put them together into stories so I wasn't able to attend Tuesday or Wednesday. For the. Story threading. And we take threads and we make them into a weave in some way. But also the. The future of text is working on this as well. As is, you know, the Internet archive. And Bob Stein and. Dan Vizel in Singapore working on the notion of a tapestry so slow going. There's been some advance and, you know, some UI, putting stuff together, but putting stuff together doesn't make a story. So let's, let's keep working. That's it for me. I will happily pass to wherever Jerry said was next. Thanks. Do you have any. Are there any kind of idealized or like really close to the Mark stories you've seen out there that are that are right now the ideals you hold up. Oh, dang. So I have been involved in digital art for, you know, since 1983 or two, something like that. And, you know, I've got this wonderful book I mentioned Monday social media and I think Edward Barrett from MIT has another book society of text. But they're from 1994, which again is a little. The web and I know of wonderful art pieces, especially done in flash that basically go through and have music and text, and then have a presence. But in terms of, you know, hypertext kind of stories they've always left me kind of flat. Working on on something, but one of the wonderful things that the buried in Treasurer's book talks about the collecting behavior is I tend to collect projects that never get finished. I can't empathize with that whatsoever. And so one of those projects is taking a board cases story or board cases essay about John Wilkins, which talks about the Chinese encyclopedia. And, you know, I'm not sure how many of you know about the Chinese encyclopedia and I can't come to mind with the exact classifications but it classifies. Absolutely all animals into animals that belong to the emperor animals that sleep with their mother animals that don't have any business being on television. And it has this absolutely bizarre and wonderful miscellaneous classification system, which is the classification system of our minds we do not have this natural Aristotelian classification ability that we use every day and there's this incredible book everything is miscellaneous by, I think David Greenberg, if I got that David Weinberger, David Weinberger, which basically makes that same argument that the metadata for Shakespeare could be King Lear the metadata for King Lear could be Shakespeare, but it also could be, you know the movie that was on 11 o'clock last night that I didn't, you know fell asleep. So, um, Jerry, thanks. Great, great brain you have somewhere. Right in front of me. Um, and so it turns out that if you read the board cases. John Wilkins article that a number of the books that he talks about are actually in the Internet Archive and they're absolutely wonderful and kind of nuts in the way that they describe. Once we get a universal language that everybody understands and everybody speaks together, the problems of humanity will be saved. And the famous I'll try to make this quick a famous notion from that essay that some philosophers thought that for his was telling the truth when he talked about this mythical Chinese encyclopedia, and it was false erudition false erudition that Boris often told in the tradition of Argentinian magical realism, and seems like a number of different people have had been fooled by that different scholars and the celestial metaphor of benevolent knowledge. It was purported to be true, but that proportion is fake fiction. And I'll pass. Love that. Thank you. And in this idea of a unifying language or there's a very funny one act play called. Anyway, they propose a language called in a munda. In fact, the play is really cute. A woman shows up looking to learn in a munda because she thinks there's a class going on at that time. And it goes on from there. And when one munda being sort of one world, like Esperanto, it's sort of a joke on Esperanto or whatever else. Oh, let's go back to we had Ken bill grace. Can you are muted locally. Hello everybody so much better. Yes. I forget that I have this little thing and actually the chord in my computer writes up lights up red when that song but I wasn't looking at that so you know I think the most common words on zoom are you're muted. So just carrying on the tradition here. Thanks for doing such an amazing job with the plex newsletter. It's just really, you know, I get so many newsletters I answer travel the time but I read this one. So, you know, you should that's high praise, you know, it's a And thanks everybody for your contributions. It's really a pleasure to see folks in there. I feel like it's a really important community organ, you know it helps bring us together and see different sides of each other so I just wanted to get some, you know, acknowledgement and appreciation for that. What am I up to. I'm trying to take the six months worth of inclusion dialogues work that I did for this big company and turn into a series of blog posts and I have to be really careful because I can't disclose anything, you know that might link back to the company but I've been thinking about it's been three months since I wrapped and you know it really had a very deep effect on me to talk. I've talked to 970 people. And 92 of them were women 364 were people of color, about 380 were from countries of the US. And do you have the opportunity to be in conversation with so many people about what does, what's it like to hear stories of non inclusion, and have your experience validated. So I do have a short story here since you asked in the chat a lot of example story. This was heartbreaking. There was a really nice guy on the call said you know I am a physically large black man, and I live in Atlanta, and everyone in the office was given hoodies with the company logo on them. I can't wear mine, because a physically large black man and a hoodie is both a target and a threat. And I also have to come to work and be super calm and nice and grounded, even if I've been pulled over for driving while black. I don't think white people have a clue what black people have to put up with every day. And it just hit me in the gut, you know. There was something about listening to stories like that over and over hearing from women especially the, the amount of racism in the company is pretty minimal, and it's mostly covert is a few bad apples here and there. And racism is just rampant. And to listen to so many women just sharing their outrage and their disappointment and their frustration. Something I'm sure everyone's call will relate to is how often I heard, you know, if women speak up and are assertive and confident, they're able to as bitchy or on the rag. But they're great leaders and, you know, so what are we going to do about the double standard, or I'm an articulate person and I really take time to carefully, you know, construct my sentences and I think I do the job of communicating but I have male colleagues who insist on mansplaining what I just said, what the fuck is up with that. So, gentlemen, we have a lot of work to do. And I really hope that our generation can do some mentoring for the younger generations and help them along. Because it's just, when you sit and hear this month after month that week after week after day, you know, for months, you really starts to, to hit you. How poorly, how poor a job we've done in creating an inclusive workplace and create in, and I kept thinking of Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech we're attempting to create a workplace where people are judged on the the competence that they bring to work and on their character and their ability to, you know, create a great place. And, and so it's feels like a democratization and a fulfillment of a long promise to something that has not come to fruition so I felt really honored to be part of this and I'm just trying to figure out how I can put this into a series of blog posts that'll have some impact for folks that's what I'm working on right now. Thank you for listening. Thanks, Ken. And it feels like this is an issue that was swept under the rug or kept behind the curtain or like shuttered in the attic for years and years and years and now at least it's in conversation. But that only helps us realize how pervasive it is and how difficult the behaviors and beliefs and biases are to flush, or to try to improve. And it's, it's a big, it's a, it's a tough thing, you know, I mean, there's an awful lot of inertia in the system and a lot of resistance to, to making this happen. So, you know, the number one thing I heard is, I love the fact that we're talking about inclusion, but I'm not going to speak up to my boss or my boss's boss until I know it's safe to do so. So management has to model this. Management has to show me that, you know, if, if I see a managing director do something that's uninclusive, I want somebody else to call them out on the spot. Another managing director and say, hey, that's not cool. That's not aligned with our aims here. I see enough of that I'll start to speak up until then. I'm just along for the ride, which is a very human thing. And, you know, I really hope this company has the sense to follow this up with, okay, we've made a really great start. Now we have to keep pushing because if there's nothing else coming along, it's going to be flavor of the month and people are going to feel jerked around. And it's like, okay, well, we did that. We checked the box on inclusion and now we're on to the next thing and nothing has changed. And what a waste that will be of all the time and effort and money that was poured into this and all of the hopes that were stirred up. Totally agree. Thank you. And thank you for that. I'm, I'm, I'm very moved by what you've done and what you've shared and how you've shared and how this is showing up for you. So thank you very much for that. I look forward to the blog post, but I think you've got something a bigger tiger by the tail here. I don't know if it's a book or if it's media platform or TV series or what, you know, I can, I can envision a book that is completely anonymized but that tells this story with the depth that you obviously have available to tell it. So for what that's worth. Thank you very much for opening this two questions for you. I'm surprised that you said that in contrast to sexism that racism seems very rare in this country because at least from the toxic media feeds that I see. It feels rampant and really deep and ugly and hard to shake so I'd like to, if you can give me a different perspective on that that would be great. The company in that country. Important distinction. Okay, thank you. Okay. And importantly, you said you've been profoundly affected by this work I'd love to hear either now or another time, a little bit more about how it has affected you personally what what has what has provoked in you what is shifting in you as a result of this experience. Because it's it's rare and very valuable what you've been through. I could respond at the moment or I can let other people go what do you want to do. I'm wondering, go ahead. A moment, go for it. That's what this is about. It really sensitized me to especially the sexism when I see it in the media or around me in conversations. You know, I have a senior citizen almost I'm getting up there you know and I have these these minimum if we send me these jokes on the email like, it's not funny, you know, stop sending this this is racist this is sexist this is not funny. So I'm having these conversations with some of my older male friends and they're like, come on, it's just a joke I'm like, that's the whole point, you know, this understanding of it's not just a joke you're carrying forward. A little bit of hatred in the world you're adding to the amount of ignorance and hatred, and you're better than that. So that's been an interesting conversation with a couple of my male friends. And just, it's made my heart softer, you know, I'm just so attuned to how much more suffering there is than I was aware of and I was already pretty aware of a lot of suffering so trying to be kinder and nicer to people and not to, you know, to take responsibility for and not add to hatred and not add to ignorance and just, you know, when I see somebody struggling I was like, okay that's person struggling what can I do how can I, how can I be of support or service in this right now. So, I think that's that's another piece of it is just, I don't want to continue to be part of the problem. Judy then Wendy. I was just going to comment on on how we connect facts and factoids and things because there was an article done by a guy from my MIT and number of years ago, who talked about how we file things in our brain is related to all of our past experiences and our brain finds similar things to connect it to, which might not be what we would consciously choose. So, it's sort of like the input that we receive is in the context of what we previously received. And they did a test on this where they, they told a story or showed a video clip of a gentleman talking to a woman across the room a married man, and how the subjects interpreted that differed. And if they thought that the guy had a great relationship with his wife, or the guy had been playing around. And they filed it differently in a different section of the blame physiologically when they could look at mapping the electrical impulses and where they went. It went to different place. So the question of how we would address content appropriately to be received, and how to attempt to influence that requires that we try to develop a deeper understanding of the existing framework of the individuals with whom we're talking. Because it's going to get filed according to their experience, not how we intend it to be taken in based on what we say. And I don't know how to do that. But I think it would be an important thing for us to consider. Wendy. Okay, so I'm going to try and articulate something. I'm not sure if I'll be successful, but that is exactly the point I want to make actually I think a lot of times in spaces where I am. Well, first of all, Ken, thank you for bringing this up. Like I think it's a very interesting point to talk about in a community like this one. Part of the reason why I enjoy coming to this community is because I feel like everyone who comes is of open heart and open mind. And hence the name of course, but I just realized I made that pun. So basically I, so I'm going to try and be vulnerable here and kind of share that I think oftentimes when I am speaking with just other women, the conversation is very cyclical and more emergent, I would say, but I'm trying to describe something I've never thought about before so I might not quite have it down when I'm talking with a room full of men and I'm one of the few women in the room. The conversation is more linear. It's more results oriented. It's more hierarchical in ways where people are before they speak, I think people are thinking about the objectives. Women before they speak potential and I'm always way over generalizing I'm just trying to point out some differences are speaking more to understand connection and relationship. So that when I am speaking when I tend to speak to those kinds of things in a room full of men, because our society narrative is more based along the lines of puts those two different types of conversations and this is a good kind of conversation and this is a soft weaker kind of conversation that when the conversation needs to and and I want to say that clearly needs to go in a space of emergence and connection. It is often ignored right by the conversation that's happening around conclusion and direction and and and and action. I think in truth both are needed, and it's really the narrative that's in our head that tells us that one is better than the other, no matter what our background or what our gender. And so I think it's a lot it's lost and I, and even sometimes and I'll be frank and sometimes in these conversations I either don't speak up, because the conversation isn't circular right now and I'm having a circular kind of connecting kind of thought it doesn't quite fit. So it's no one's fault I just don't feel it's the right moment to say something, or because when I start to express something. The idea is lost a little bit because the conversation moves very quickly back into an action oriented conversation, and we and we don't spend time further exploring what connection was trying to emerge through my voice or through some other voices because that's a different kind of conversation to have. So, sometimes I'll just let it go and sometimes I'll try and bring it back up, you know three or four comments later to see if it can, it can breathe some life into it into things. So anyway that's my, that's my perspective. Wendy, thank you that's like super interesting in so many different ways. I posted in the chat that years ago I read Deborah Tannen's book you just don't understand which has some broad generalizations about how men and women communicate but one of the things that stuck in my head immediately you only need to read the first chapter because all the other chapters play it out in different scenarios but the thesis is right up front. And she just says, women negotiate intimacy in a community men negotiate status in a hierarchy, which means if Pete broke his leg I'll come up and say, ah that's nothing I shattered my leg in eight places and then like had a lion's claw of my side and it's like, I had a worse injury than you. And women will say, oh my gosh that must hurt. I heard, I, you know, I had, I had a pain like that recently to. And it's a generalization but I found over and over again that it applies. Second thing and then I'd love to see what other people think like can just raise his hand. I like to think that these conversations have a circularity and an editing sort of feature to them and I'm like my ears pricked up a lot because I'm like okay how much am I behaving like a dude trying to drive toward results here, and how much is this sort of a juicy emergent conversation. And I'm actually in kind of aiming for emergence. Many calls back I said, my MO here in the check-in format is I dip my ladle in the stream of what everybody's doing. And then when something interesting shows up I stir a little bit and I'm like well how about this and what do you think. And that's kind of the method with an intention to see what what shows up and what everybody else wants to throw in. And then we whip on through things pretty quickly and we're kind of on a drive to make sure most everybody gets to check in during the call which is, which is kind of the urgency of, well we can't dwell on that for too long. And the five interesting things we've turned over so far would each be like great subjects for a deeper call right for for spending some time. So, so I'm, other thoughts can, can, can then Judy. Thank you, Wendy there's something here that ties to collective intelligence for me. When they were first studying collective intelligence MIT Thomas loan wrote this paper and said there's three conditions that evoke collective intelligence and groups and the first is social perceptiveness it's being aware of your impact on other people. And the second is turn taking ensuring that everybody has an opportunity to speak. And women in my experience tend to be much better at the first two they tend to be much more tuned to how they're impacting other people and men are kind of oblivious often. This is a generalization I'm sure there's on this call who are the exceptions to those that rule but you know, and women also I hang out with a lot of women in my life, you know, I've been in nearly room in many conversations and I've noticed that women are really good at allowing other people to speak and just waiting back and, you know, listening and and men jump in all the time so. Okay. Gil, can you mute. Sorry guys. So there was. And so, when I when I'm listening to Wendy talk I'm thinking this is directly to collective intelligence. If we're going to become collectively intelligent and really bring out the best in each other. We need that circularity we need that. How am I impacting other people, am I, am I being a boy in a China shop, as somebody just was in this community and did that you know, I think these are really, really important aspects of our collective behavior that we don't pay enough attention to. And we don't have a lot of good coping mechanisms for when those kinds of things show up, which is why we need collective agreements in place before they show up. Anyway, thank you for listening. Judy Stewart Wendy. One quick comment and one thought, I wanted to reference an old book written in the 80s called women's reality by Ann Wilson shape, which was at the time, absolutely the only and best source of the differences in the way women think and behave for men at the time. The women's and cycle group well embraced by the women and science group that I was part of because we were always outnumbered 10 to one in any particular situation and conscious thinking of how to introduce the perspective into the group was part of the discussion in the women's group for how we would cope in, let's say a corporate environment. I think also that this is extremely important. If we think about how information is gathered and communicated, and by whom, and the context in which they present what is supposed to be factual information. And that's something that we could spend more time studying or thinking about, because it's a combination of how you understand and learn and what you learn from every interaction or exchange you have whether it's with a person or a book or whatever. If we want to create the sort of generative process that we've talked about from the accumulated wisdom of indigenous species and other people of different orientations. We need to move this from the unconscious level to the conscious level in what we're doing. Do you mean move from to or do you mean blend and integrate and this is the question anyway. Well, I'm, I think we want the end result to be to blend and integrate. But I think sometimes you actually have to consciously operate in the zone that can be heard with the group. Rather than in the zone you would prefer to operate. And do you mind giving us a tiny bit of background you were really early into like science and stuff in a men's world. You have a lot of experiences there. Just a, just a little, maybe a taste of your experiences. Oh wow. Well that's certainly true. I've heard stories over time. One point I'd make as an extreme example there weren't very many women in science as an undergrad. And there were even fewer in chemistry than there had been in biology which is where I started. When I came to 3M as a technical employee with the fresh PhD. There were precisely 14 women in a campus of multi thousands that were technical women in the technical community. And there was only one woman at an executive equivalent level. And she had been there 20 years and she said that it was clear to her very quickly that she wouldn't be able to move up in the traditional fashion in the organization so she moved into information management. And became senior VP for all of the information management at a high tech, very information oriented company so she didn't have a lot of influence, but it was limited. So I think I was keenly aware that I was always the only woman in the room, unless once there was an operating committee when I got into a higher level, and the HR representative from the HR department to our division was a woman. But it was a, it was a rarefied atmosphere. There were funny jokes I've talked about writing a book about some of it. Typical sexist behavior that you'd expect to see in a bar sometimes happened in business settings. It differed with different countries that you participated with. An interesting wise statement was when I was being considered for position in Japan which would have been pretty unprecedented in the, I guess it would have been the early 90s. I got some feedback from the Japanese that you know if that had happened, the Japanese knew that if the person that was sent to Japan was a woman, it would be an exceptional person because that's what 3M would do. Wow. It's just, it's changed a lot but it hasn't changed in its root values because the experiences we all have are still perpetuated by the roles we have experienced in our family and in school and other places. And so I think one way to deal with it perhaps is to personalize and say in my experience or when this happened to me and so forth. And most always that diffuses the combative tendency, for instance if you're saying this to a person at the podium and you're disagreeing. But in one instance, I did hear a person respond. And it wasn't to me, it was to a man who had actually said something similar. He said that's right and you're just wrong. So, it's, it's a very pervasive underpinning. So I got some feedbacks from new science associates where I worked longer ago Nina Buck is was born in Narnital in India and wound up licensed working for MIT licensing their, their IP, and she would travel to India and the other people in the room would talk to her junior male partner in the room and just wouldn't deal with her. And this is not that many years ago, let's say 15 years ago 10 years ago. I was like, Good God. It's just kind of amazing to me that that we're still talking about this in some ways I was just thinking about what it is I wanted to say. And it's kind of like, you know, very often I work with my head down working on my own creative projects and then you know I'll do a client project or I'll open my eyes and go out in the world and it's going, Holy shit I can't believe that they're still in these conversations. It's just kind of, you know, extraordinary to me. And, and I think the answer is a quote from Victor Frankel between stimulus stimulus and response there is a space in that space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom. It's about being aware of the unconscious bias the implicit bias that's buried in everybody and it's time to just stop it. Some of it I think is in the biology. And I don't know if America much Iran I would have something to say about this, you know he talked about the capacity of humans to caress as a loving compassion and expression. But the, the, the other pieces, you know, guys are still lobbing projectiles all over the world. I mean we are seeing it in Ukraine now. It's just rampant and wild. It's just kind of, you know, for years I've known that the salvation of planet Earth is going to have to do with men realizing that they're wrecking balls in some ways and that women need to start really stepping up and we need to be creating much greater partnerships because that balance is, is, is, is where the, the salvation of humanity may lie. Wendy then grace. Yeah, thanks, Stuart for that I, I agree and and I'm just going to shift the framing just a little bit for, for the point I'm going to make and turn and talking about not just women and men as gender but women, the energy, you know, like a female energy and a male energy. Because I think different genders can also carry the opposite as well. So I'm just putting that out there so I'm going to, I'm going to use those terms going forward. I think the male energy has dominated our culture for so long now. And I think truly a balance is really what's required. And what we're seeing is when one dominates, you know when one energy dominates too much it happens to be the male energy and it happens to have been for the last couple hundred years if not longer, and, or probably a longer. And so we are way out of balance and balancing those energy so to me, when we think about what the solutions are. It's first in recognizing that the energy is completely out of balance that it's not about the female energy coming over to where the male energy is, and, and meeting it there, it's about the male energy, working to decrease if that's can be a thing, while the female energy is it takes up the void, because this idea that that women will step forward and somehow, and somehow dominate the moment is using a male energy. So it's not going to happen that way in my opinion, it's going to happen by the male energy recognizing that it needs to step out of the way. And what does that look like that looks like being humble that looks like being silent that looks like listening deeper that looks like asking more questions that looks like repeating what a what a what's what's emerging over and over and over again until it makes more sense. There's all those kinds of things that don't have to be in words that feel female to people they don't as gender, they don't have to be uncomfortable, it just has to make an effort to, to balance itself. Right, so I think there are times still, and will continue to be times where that male energy, we need to get things done, we need to stick it against the wall, we need to do it yesterday we have an emergency, all those kinds of things will currently still need to be there. And at the same time, if we're going to learn it all from say the our own chemistry, our own biology or own humanity, we're actually in healing nurturing mode or should be we're not should be in healing nurturing mode, something like 75% of the time our internal chemistry, right, or even more. And I played around with the thoughts that actually maybe the energy balance isn't even 5050 true energy balance would actually be more in the realm of like 7580% that nurturing, supporting collaborative energy, and only every now and then when absolutely necessary do we need to fight flight action like super action oriented very electric very quick. So just thought through it so in that sense we're way out of balance. Before going to everybody else in the queue, I just want to share this spot in my brain which is we've been suffering from a young overdose for 300 to 3000 years where I've collected a whole bunch of stuff I have a little video that I've shared here before called why I do what I do, which says that that we're in a moment right now of rebalancing that we're in this lovely crazy wonderful moment right now what there where we are rebalancing yin and yang. We're the more we can figure out how to come back in into community and so forth I'll share that particular link in the chat right now that I'll link directly to that thought. But that's I think that's our work. That's a big piece of our work is to figure out that rebalancing. Wendy thank you for the reframing and the great ideas poured back in. So, yeah, so my friend was a little bit different and I think this is a very very og me type of problem because it's a systemic issue I mean, if you imagine that a bunch of kids are playing outside and they and they create a game, right, and they create this great game, and it's really fun for kids and they're good at it. And then as an adult you have to go there and you have to play the game. You have to put on kids mind, and you're not a kid like your brain is afraid of like jumping over that thing that looks a little scary and sharp and kids aren't even seeing that it's scary and sharp. But you can train your brain you can train your brain a little bit. But actually, there's a few things you have to climb through that you're physiologically you just can't. Right. And that's, you know, that's the system right women are operating in the system. And, you know, and everybody's operating in a system that was created by a few Western men. And so we can adjust ourselves to it. Physiologically, it's never going to fit. And so these are really deeper systemic things and a lot of times I find that the conversation feels like we're going to fix it by you know training men to have a different mindset or being aware of it or we're going to actually like there's things about what it means to win the game in today's world that simply you know so you know when Ken was talking about these you know the way that the corporate environment works, even the game of playing winning in the corporate environment is, you know, it's a certain kind of game that maybe you're not so interested in the tournament 3M which is one of those corporations that had double tracks right one track was a specific you could you know you didn't have to become a beer manager to get a higher rank. And, and I think there's something like that right and in women's societies like the rank thing is a little weird like who I'm a better mom than you are. I had five kids how many do you have you know like it's just stupid stupid thing to say and mine is a doctor and yours is a lawyer like it's just not a winning it's not the kind of game you can win it's just the game you know like you're playing a game without keeping score or something or I mean we are keeping score we know who's the better mom but you know anyhow. So, so like the systemic things it's almost like I almost never want to talk about the sexism issue because it's, it's not going to be solved by by like looking at the problem as it surfaces right it's like, it's like, if I'm getting hives from something I eat and I'm like well maybe I should put some salve on the hives. That's kind of how it feels to me. That's complete. Thank you grace Allison. Thank you I didn't realize I was already unmuted. I agree agree with both of those shares and and Wendy. Thank you for that contribution and I have the experience of being able to sit in a one on one call with Wendy and it was, it was really impactful in understanding that we showed up for the call and I think that the energetics that Wendy brings is I'm here for the purpose of connection and being in service. And that alone right there done. That's it for me and that that speaks to be a feminine quality but I think that we have become in an achievement what is the purpose of when we're coming into a connection and when we, and we're able to state our purpose and our function and the energies that we're acting upon within those are are are available and in whatever humble way that we can continue to check in is my purpose being met and connection right now I think couldn't be in service they couldn't be more important in our purpose. That's what we're going for, as we feminize an economy and understand that what an economy truly is is a relational conversations a conversation of needs and wants. I spent about an hour and a half yesterday and a non by the communication with a man talking about his his need, you know, it was an hour and a half of a group of people just inquiring about what his possible needs were and the other person in the conversation and it was amazing how we're watching Greek theater in some ways we really are getting closer to our own needs when we're playing these roles and responsibilities and acknowledging the different aspects of ourselves that are coming up, and how we share those and oftentimes, what happens with male female and male or whatever conversational dynamic is a lot of assumption and personalizing. And so those things come up another thing that came up was just that it's a thing of 70% what you know we're talking about of the nurturing and that just that's that's resilience right and then it's a little bit we got to respond to fear so I really like that energetically that speaks to salute or Genesis right now we need our resilience and we need a purpose and we need to know that we have a little bit of security and stake in the future and the function of coming in and dominating anything in order to prove one's merit or one's worth as we have now is is not in service of like the wampum belt, which is communicating our connection and the fact that when we come together were better for it. And, and so how do we construct arrangements on the con and social conversational level that they speak with along them felt is communicating and rather, rather than the transaction with a commodity behind it. This, this I've, this I've noticed for a long time, you know, the ramping up of the stem conversation and education and let's get more women in math, engineering and technology. And that's, that's great and we were talking about it from this place of equity, but we haven't really looked at the purpose behind it. So in the process, all of women's work is now not considered we're not talking about increasing wages for teachers or social servants in any way. We're just talking about increasing really our competitiveness on a global economic marketplace right so get more people in there because the United States is gaining this losing traction. So, coming into something and maybe recognizing within our conversations on some level, what our purpose is, and could it really ultimately be anything other than connection and service to the other person needs. Thank you Alison. I forgot one thing I wanted to say on the physiological level and that's like, I don't really want men to stop loving certain kinds of trajectories around like men should still get to be men in constructive and useful ways. So I really don't see any problem with that like I find it kind of attractive, just so you know like but in a certain context. Okay, Grace and Grace, do you want to jump in before your bus or do you have to run catch your best right now because I have run now and then. Yeah, so thank you. I've got Bill Grace, Eric Pete but Grace will just slide you in whenever you raise your hand and say that you're good to good to talk so Bill the floor is yours. Well, hi everybody so now I feel a lot better than I have been feeling for a week. I had to tell you it's really I'm not having a very difficult time. I'm not feeling anything but the daily requirements. Very difficult. And, but one thing that Alison just said strikes something I've been reading. I'm going to moon again about Amitabh ghost the great arrangement which I'm now reading for the second time and likely will read a third time. I just come up that I've been getting tired of hearing all this talk about oh we must achieve this we have to go to this we have to prove this I'm like what are we doing. What are we doing. I mean I'm older now I'm like, sorry, I'm done with proving. I really am, you know, and so I think there's something that at least I'm working on trying to reexamine exactly what is the way that actually see myself and each other in the world when we try and accomplish things. And I guess I'm getting really a little tired of some of the. I don't even know what to say it kind of everything seemed a lot of what is talked about and like here's the you know and to be stronger. So everything sounds like a cliche. Like, like, could I just sit here and be like terrified. Because I think that's actually how I feel. And so, I mean this actually feel better now after this last hour but. There's not much else to add except that this is where I'm trying to explore and you know just get away from trying to make simple generalizations about the situation that we're in. Because it's not simple. It just is anything but simple. The other example so I felt like you know, in addition to the all the fighting in Ukraine. Right. I mean the next day, the UN publishes this, you know the IPCC publishes this blaster of a report. And like, I just I am so just astounded when I hear the news like why is not not in every news story. Why are we not talking about this. Like it's not going to go away. I mean I'm a, you know, thermodynamicist so I'm sorry. The second law of thermodynamics is not, you know, there's no litigation here. So I'm just, this is kind of like I'm like, phew. So, you know, I'm sitting on the floor here with doing the best I can but thanks y'all it's been very encouraging. Bill, thank you. Let's, let's just go into silence for a little bit you brought us into a different place and I appreciate your saying what you just said very much. I think, I think what you were talking about really is what we're all trying to figure out how to cope with. It's like, we give, I think, most people in this community give a big dam about the big issues that we're talking about. And why we keep going back to them on these calls and keep turning them over and keep trying to figure out how to solve them and what our role is and how to make all those things kind of work so that we can tip things toward a better world. And it's really hard. It's just really hard. And I don't think we acknowledge the difficulty and the pain and we don't accept just being in that grief. Very often, we're busy like, like little hamsters on the in the habit trail, trying to figure out how to make things better and what our role is and what to, you know, how do we get more solar panels installed or whatever it might be. Right. So thank you. Anyone else who would like to offer something in the spirit of bills. Comments. Go ahead, Stuart. Just just briefly, the piece that's so frustrating is, we seem to know what to do. We seem, you know, not everyone but but most people who are on this call, if given the opportunity to be in charge of the world would know the action know what to do could make a plan. Just make us emperors. I mean, heck, does that is that so hard are we asking for that much. And, and people just go along on their on their on their on their rat wheel. I can't remember his name right now. That Stanford the epi epi epi epigeneticist. Yeah. Just talking about how we're so controlled by old programming. And that get beyond that that old programming and that's where we are I think as a species right now. Taking that that that that next, that next step, because the programming we grew up with is not going to get us to the world. That needs something new right now today. Thanks to her. We have Eric, Pete, Judy. Hello everybody. So I'm going to share a link in the chat but it's not what I want to talk about it's an interesting app that's in beta testing. So, um, me and sure. Okay, thanks. Yeah. So, I visited my parents this past weekend, and they have Netflix and I finally got around to watching that don't look up movie. And I was just surprised at the emotional impact it had on me for the next day or two. Not really. I mean, just holding up a mirror to the world that we're living in now and where do we fall and where would we be when that title wave comes. So, um, now, I'm going to show you two books on my nightstand. And like it's partially related to our topic and also like the theme of Black History Month. This is Hidden Figures, the book from the movie of the three women who worked at NASA. And this is one that about a guy who worked in the early days of the video game. Yeah, one of the first American African engineers to work in the design of video games and the imagination machine personal computer. There's a museum that I hold an event that I participate in each year, vintage computers, and this year's themes are women in computing and computers for the masses. So like my initial reaction to those themes was like, why is it necessary to call out specific groups like women? Well, there really is a problem that we're trying to address. So, fine. Okay. Well, yeah, well, that Hidden Figures. I mean, these are these books are about people who really achieved. And like there's another thing that I want to mention that a movie called the pursuit of happiness, spelled with a Y, H-A-P-P-Y-N-S, yeah, about Christopher Gardner, who overcame enormous struggles in life. So I guess that's the model that we see that we want minorities to really struggle and work within our system. And, but I can see they, there are the resistance to that too. But then where's the balance between like government assistance and personal ownership of your life and career and working your way out of problems versus becoming a slave to debt or whatever else. So these things can just toss around my mind as I sort of do my own sensitivity training, and I'm a work in progress there, as we all are. So thanks. Thanks, Eric. Do you mind putting the books in the chat? Oh yes, I'll put them in the chat. Yep. Thank you. Really appreciate that. And I've lost my cue for a moment. Let's go. Pete, Judy, Kevin. Thanks, Jay. Thanks all. Thank you so much for the conversation about male and female energy. Thanks, especially Wendy and Ken for kicking it off. That was really nice. I have a like one particular thing to share two particular things kind of if you haven't seen it yet. I'd love it if you would check out the first link there and chat, the Bilequia Plex Dispatch. It's a Bilequia thing that carries kind of the news of the world. Send me email for updates for the next one. Tell me, you know, oh, this is going on in my world. I'd love to hear about it. And something that relates to the rest of us. Not something that is just you. The big thing for me right now is Manimost is getting an upgrade. It's been a while since I've upgraded the server software. And I'm super excited. We're going to upgrade and get rid of at least one annoying message that pops up for folks on the phone. There's a couple of gotchas. And I apologize for these kind of upfront. One of them is as a consequence of the server software being upgraded, you don't have to do anything kind of. But I think sometime this weekend, I'll upgrade the software and it's going to forget that you have a password. So you're going to have to go to the website and click the I forgot my password. Which I know is a lie. You're telling the computer. I forgot the password when in fact it forgot the password. So I apologize for having to lie to a computer. Computers aren't very smart. Anyway, if everything goes well, you'll get it linked to reset your password. You'll be able to reset your password. Another odd ball thing is it's going to forget all the attachments. I'll be able to save the attachments we've had attachments or when you drag and drop or maybe click a button and say, I want to share a picture with this one or I want to share a file, a chat file or something like that. If I forget all of those, I will have saved them. They're not easy to reconnect back to the messages that they came from. The thing that I can do is tell who the attachments came from. And with that, I can help you find an attachment that you know got lost. I wish I could put them all in a big bucket and we could just look through them all. It turns out that it's going to save all the attachments from everything including direct messages. So it would be an invasion of privacy potentially to just have a big bucket of all the attachments. So that's not a practical thing anyway. It does sound very Zen as Ken just posted in the chat. It's a great thing. I think you're doing the world is in favor piece. Yes. Yeah, an earlier rev this was let's just forget all the messages even let's not even remember what we've talked about not even have channels let's just start all over again I think it's better to keep a little bit of context. Thanks everybody for continuing to use matter most. I, I know it can be a pain sometimes and I apologize for the pain and, and, but I think it's a useful thing it's a it's a nice place to come and chat with us also bear with us to this little upgrade process and send me an email or send mail to support it out to collective since comments.org, which goes to me. And also there's a web page to watch back in the chat. You can always go to status dot collective since comments dot work and see, you know what's currently going on. That website is set up so it never goes down. Almost never. And so you can always check their like, why can't you know my my phone isn't connecting to to matter most darn thing. So after throwing it away and then refining your phone and cursing it at Pete or computers or whatever. You can hit that website and at least see what's going on. And don't feel, feel free to send me an email. Thanks. Thank you so much. And thank you for all the great stuff and the community updates and the wallpaper and everything else. Judy Kevin bill. I'll pass for now Jerry thanks. Thanks Judy. Kevin. I know you've got the floor fast when you thought. Hi. I'm in terms of like what do you do now. We're meeting with a group we're going to start to see if the donut economics model could work in our part of the county at one o'clock Eastern. It's pretty interesting that folks I'm inviting of, you know, one guy kind of leads are people who care about Swannanoa Democrat group one was a UN peace guy globally and the other is a sensible Baptist pastors and sort of this subset. I don't know where we can go from there and I think it's kind of interesting I've been researching again with how these people use that in the UK and in Brazil. And I think it's kind of interesting and then just the second is I'm working with Jordan and to see if his marketplace can work with this thing called small street dot org which will be a aggregation of crowdfunding in our locality here in Buncombe County that Michael Schuman created along with this donor advice fund so a place where you can give use catalytic venture philanthropy and invest in local crowdfunding I think it could be pretty interesting and so. I mean, I'm encouraged by all the places around where the donut is being used where people figure out what to do locally and repeatedly and not be afraid I mean I think you know, avoiding panic and fear, you can do it through collective action with a pretty frame and the donut seems pretty useful I've been going down into their tools they have four lenses, social and ecological, local and global and you apply it and then you take it down and you do a portrait. So, you know, I really had no time for anybody who's who's wasting their energy and despair, I think that's just it is a collective suck on the consciousness of all of us and I think time to get over despair was like a few days ago. So, that's all. Thanks, Kevin. Wendy Gil Stewart. I'll pass to you. Thanks. Thank you. Gil Stewart. I mean about turns coming up faster than one expects. I know it's crazy. Yeah, I'm just trying to find a Toni Morrison quote that speaks right to what Kevin said. She'll have to post later. So a couple of things. I really appreciate the conversation we've been having this morning. Thank you for folks who instigated that. Questions for me, I think we might be a little too. A little too ready to pin the tail on Western men, because it seems to me this is a much older phenomenon, and much more pervasive the human phenomenon I'm not an anthropologist or a member reading stuff. Looking at societies where the work of women and the work of men are sometimes reversed, but the work of women is always somehow regarded less. So there's some other kind of monkey business going on. Perhaps, besides Western men, I say that not to duck any blame but to say it's maybe a harder problem for us to solve than some modern people being more aware because we are each of us, you know, I mean, I'm influenced not just by you all the world I've grown up in and my parents and the world that they grew up in the media soup that I'm immersed in and it's no it's a mess of how we form what we think and believe in saying how we react. Thank you, that's exactly the one P in the chat there's no this is no there is no time I'll say this is no time for despair no place for self pity. No need for silence no room for fear. We speak, we write, we do language. That is how civilizations heal. So Kevin that's my little refuge this morning from what you said. And Eric, you said my mood this last week has not been so much terror or there's some of that with the nuclear saber rattling but I woke up in a mood of grief several days and it's a very uncharacteristic place for me. I tend to be much more optimistic, more focused on the class half full and it's, it's not despair Kevin. It's not like it's not it's not grief like hopelessness but it's grief like a profound deep sadness that this is where we are now that we're still stuck in these stories. And that one other thing from earlier on, there is discussion of the purpose of these conversations versus emergent conversations I'm here for the emergence. I'm in a lot of a lot of a lot of things like this these days for emergency it's not there's not work to be done and things to be done and that's but the richness of this kind of open ended exploration. And, you know the gender dynamics are part of the constraint on this, but it's also a challenge of having what we've got, you know, 1015 20 people in a conversation together weaving in and out. I think I think we're pretty good at it, compared to most of the sand cherry in a big nod to you for your ladle and your spoon. It's an easy thing to do to have a lot of voices mix up in, you know, in a way that it feels good and inclusive and rewarding so for me this is a very important experiment and it influences me in other conversations that I have in my life so I'm grateful to all of you for that. But the quick check in is again I guess one of the reasons that I'm comfortable with con emergence conversations that I'm very focused in my day to day life and really barreling in on, you know, sort of taking the 20 projects I might like to do and really, you know, two or three I'm doing some individual coaching, which I'm calling trim tab for trim tabs, as a cash flow engine for me while I'm focusing on standing up a company of a turnaround fund to produce an ecologically grounded employee owned community rooted companies. And so we're very early stages of that have talked with Kevin about it length. Just starting throughout two investors this last week. And one really intriguing piece of feedback about from a number of folks who have been in in the workplace democracy realm before was their experience of how reluctant people are to want to have control. People would rather have either a paycheck or maybe they'd rather have profit sharing but to be in charge of enterprise maybe not. So that's going to be an interesting thing to discover of you know, is that so is that that these reports are 2030 years old is it true today where is it true why is there is there something to nurture there. So are are humans, the humans really want democracy or they were lucky democracy did not have to do democracy democracy at the scale of you know, 10 or 50 or 200 people is arguably different from the scale of 20 million 200 million. But I'm realizing what a fascinating experiment, we're walking into that part of the story. So, that's it. Thank you, Bill. Oh, yeah, just one other thing about about men and leadership. I saw a quote from everybody's hero moment blood on your Zalinsky, who specifically instructed that he did not want his portrait on in government offices all over Ukraine when he was elected which was the way things were done. And he said this ain't about me. I think it's ironic for you. No pictures. I think it's ironic that an actor comedian who was playing president on sort of a soap on TV becomes president and turns out to be better than its character turns out to be better than most other presidents. Yeah, at least from from all the participation all we're seeing in this role. It's incredible. Because I don't need a ride I need ammunition. Yeah, he was also a lawyer and an accomplished television executive. So comedy comedy and acting was just something that he happened to do also probably help the most executive. We have Stacy Doug Michael. A lot here today. Um, so the path the past few days motivated by my desire to, you know, shift the way we think I spent a lot of time on. Not a lot of time but the time I've spent on Facebook, regarding the crisis with Ukraine has really been about the Wendy put in a really beautiful quote, which sort of speaks to it. And the point I'm trying to make you so the stuff I was putting on had worked to do with people standing up and saying no war. And I put stuff about Russian citizens standing up. And I happened to have one Russian friend from Miami, who is an acquaintance, and she came on pro Putin. I'm going to go along with you people, blah, blah, blah. I won't go through the whole few days. It was very time consuming, but I answered her very politely on the page and then we went into a private dialogue. The reason I'm bringing it up is, again, it was very tiresome but I really thought it was important. Because she has this whole Russian community, and you know we taught we started off talking about propaganda and there was a lot of agreement, but I want to get to the end of the story which I think is a little uplifting. I can say she's totally changed her mind, although she is looking at things differently, but two important things came out. One is that she moved to the page of, I'm just praying for peace I want this to be over. Importantly, when she realized she wasn't going to win the fact war that wasn't going to happen, but she came out with what I'm really concerned about is the planet, and what I'm going to leave to my children. And at that point, I was able to send her some of the information that I get from here and change the whole dialogue. So it is worth it sometimes. And I just wanted to share that so I'm not feeling. I just want to add I'm not really feeling the same sense of grief. I'm feeling that things are coming to the surface that people's emotions are coming to the surface. I'm feeling it's a it's a place for healing to begin. And I'm going to stick on those front lines. I'm complete. I love that Stacy thanks for what you're doing field and Stuart. Yeah Stacy to be clear the grief does not mean an absence of hope. These are coexisting, but, but there's a pain that I'm feeling that I haven't been present to before so there's that. And you said about your conversation with this woman because it, I think a lot about how change happens. And I'm living in the hypothesis that one of the ways it happens when people talk about what they really care about. And behind, you know our political differences and ideological differences and gender differences and all that stuff there's a lot of stuff that we care about in common and that seems to be one of the critical doorways to having something happen and so thank you for for modeling that. It's a fascinating post. This past weekend somewhere in my stream I'll see if I can dig it up and share. My clients climate scientist. Who's got, who's on on tiktok has 300,000 followers on tiktok and sharing what she observed about the conversations there. Mostly, you know, obviously involving people much younger than herself and much younger than us. And she said, the fact war is not it the fact war is not the war you're going to win. What was persuasive that she saw was people seeing something attractive they wanted to do or have or be like so the model modeling the change, rather than trying to convince somebody of the change was the was the takeaway from her work. So something for us to think about. I think this is a broad generalization but I think the reason a lot of people are in distress around the world is that they see a grimmer future for their children than they had. And that their grandparents had and they that's horrible that's like no, no person really wants that. And you go into the streets for that you do whatever you can for that and if you're being spun then you act on the spin for that but I think that's a common, common notion, and it takes us back a little bit towards Stacy just said, let's do it. What Stacy said. It's critical and trying to resolve conflict that you chunk up to get to a place that everybody can agree to that's kind of one of the things that's outraged me about what's going on you've got a pan, you've got a pandemic, and you've got climate catastrophe and you've got Putin creating mayhem in the world. You know, and hopefully that will be our salvation when people wake up to exactly what Stacy just said. Thank you. Doug Michael Julian and grace whenever she plans. I'm almost going to pass but not quite. I want to say something about why I would pass. And that is, I find that there's no language right now in me that fits in how I feel. And I think that we are all kind of powerless. The answer to the despair for me is just think hard have conversations, study history, and try and understand what's going on, and at the same time, try and take care of anybody you know of who's hurt. Anyway, I'm going to stop right there. Thank you that's lovely. Michael, then Julian and grace. Um, I'll, I'll just share something that I was was discussing with Wendy and direct messages about. I really resonated with her, making the distinction between the way men and women behave and male and female energy in all of us, and how the urge to compete, the urge to win is is really constantly stoked in men even even in groups like this, I feel like there's a there's a competitive aspect to the way that, you know, men lay out what they're doing what they think what their analysis is. And it's hard not to play, and it's not it's not just. It's not just men among men, I mean I find with my, you know, with my partner, you know, they're, they're things that when when I express my feminine self. It's just unwelcome and off putting. I was struck by the fact that grace said, you know, hey, you know, lobbying those projectiles is attractive sometimes. And you know I mean it's it's a thing where women and men have this idea of what it's like to be manly. And it's hard not to play. And, and, you know, sharing as winning, as opposed to, you know, the metaphor of kids playing a game and was was brought up, I think, grace brought that up to. And I remember a conversation that that I thought of often that that Pete and I had somewhere about, you know, sports metaphors men always going after winning. And, and Pete said, you know, collaboration wins in the meta bracket. And I think that is, I hope that's true. But, you know, it hasn't yet, in a way, and I think that's that's what we're about here is figuring out how we can create a place where collaboration can be the winner where we all can be the winner, where, you know, somebody isn't isn't the leader. You know, it's, it's leading isn't for everybody. And, and, and frankly, I feel like it's not for me. I want to collaborate and cooperate and support and I want that to be success. And it's hard to do that in a competitive capitalist world. I just wanted to say something about about despair and and feeling and I was, while I understood it, I was, was hit a little bit by what what Kevin said and, you know, and Gil shared the Tony Merrick Morrison quote about, and, you know, I felt for Bill and what he was saying. And, you know, I think feeling your feelings is something that you can do alongside, you know, taking action or maybe sometimes in lieu of taking action and reflecting and sharing your feelings and, and, and, you know, perspectives with people who will know how to lead the action in response to the thing that you're having an emotional response to and that seems like it can be a female energy male energy question. So, yeah, I think that that was, that was pretty much what I wanted to say. And, and thanks to everybody for, for making this the subject. Thank you. Grace and Julian, and I totally missed whether Mark got a turn and, and if I miss anybody else please raise your hand but grace do you want to go and then Julian. I'm just so much in this conversation today. I kind of want to, I don't know, maybe tag along with the last discussion about about leadership and and also what you said Jerry about it being hard, you know, like it's, things are going really well I have a lot of updates I'd love to update about everything everybody about my for logic for you know but what's there for me is that this constant stress of being the leader, and also, you know, and I live on my own, and it just feels like for me, there isn't a place to rest. I'm probably in a little bit small business that I'm running. I'm creating this kind of these online workshops, I'm creating this new forms of economy stuff, and it's just like and, and, and I love being a leader. But there's no place to just be like, you know, I had a hard day. I don't have that in my life like a place to just go and say I had a hard day. Yeah, so it's hard right and, and, and I really resonate a lot with what people were talking about about the despair and the this, you know how the world is frightening. I am, I got permission from my landlady to bring in a refugee for my in my, in my room here and it's like such a funny thing to really see how that's related to here in Europe. You know, in the former Yugoslav Republic, and the difference between how the Ukrainian people are being perceived, like, oh, those are those are like us. Those are people who the Russians are invading and we better, you know, do something about that, but you know people coming up from the south that's a different industry. Mostly those people are just trying to, you know, they're not, they're not war refugees just they're looking for a better life. Like so what, so am I that's why I live here, but I just happened to be white. So, and I've got the right degrees and it was easy for me to get residency and I don't think I'm any less of a refugee than any of those people. I just could see it coming five years before. And Israel is still livable, you know, my home country but So I don't see the refugees from Ukraine is different from me except that they waited a little too long. So that's interesting. I think the other thing it's interesting you guys have been bringing up a bunch of different areas where the world is you know that these issues of the world and what's been interesting to me about this crisis is also it's going to be about money again because it's like me and the money thing is the money war. Right, it started with the Canadians and freezing their stuff. And then it's like the first thing against Vladimir it's like oh we're going to take them out of the swift system. We've got all kinds of stuff and then oh Ukrainians are using crypto. And then this week I don't know probably a lot of you didn't notice this but a few weeks ago and video said that they wouldn't allow their GPUs to process crypto mining. And you got to wonder right that's not a good business decision got to wonder who was whispering in their ear that they should say that. Somebody must have put a heck of a lot of pressure on Nvidia, you can find this in the news it's not like. They said they wouldn't allow crypto mining on the GPUs. And this week there's a ransomware attack against them and a release of some firmware. That by these ransomware attackers that are like, if you've got a one of these new GPUs you just install this software firmware or whatever. And it'll work and it's a war, it's a money war there's all out money war. And there was a recent. Recently I heard somebody speaking, speaking on a podcast about this, the idea that the cryptocurrency is equivalent to the print to the printing press, which caused the entire like 100 years war between the Catholic Church and the reformation whatever. And it's the same thing and the war is being fought on every front. You know it's like the physical war in the Ukraine and in the money wars and the whatever and it's it's super. Like, I kind of want to be frightened but I also feel like, but hey, like I've got my little warm apartment and I'm doing just fine. Yeah, so that's, that's sort of like one aspect the check and the other aspect the check and I'm not going to talk about my project but I will say that I've gotten to this point with my, with my stuff where I'm like, it's just really like Peter and everything he's doing, because I'm starting to think about weaving together all these different tools to create some kind of a platform for the community that's been doing my workshops and I'm getting ready to do the next round of workshops. And you know we're looking at the, Pete I can't, I don't know how you do it man, like weaving together that there's like this zoom and there's a whatever and then there's Jerry's brain and then there's the matter most and then there's like, and all these pieces and I'm really trying to figure out this puzzle of how to put that together in some way, where people can come in and be like okay here's my portal. Here are the, you know things I'm signed up for like the conversations that I'm signed up for and here are the things I've already done and here's the things I want to host and anyway. Any ideas on how to set those kinds of things up are welcome. And I guess what I've been working on is thinking about this as a kind of a campus because I've noticed that people come through my workshops, or my discussions like for a few weeks and then they go off back to their workshops. And so I'm really feeling like what I want to create is some kind of a campus where different communities come in and come out and there's events going on and there's open hours and, and it's not a community and of itself but kind of a, you know, like a, what did you call like the, like the community center of the, these different communities where everybody kind of comes around and so that's my check in. Thank you, love that. Just in, in sort of terms of despair along these issues, one of the things I did was I created a thought called silver linings of Putin's attack on Ukraine. And, you know, might some republican support for Putin fragment the GQP. There's a great moment to flush the world of Russia's cut the crats and oligarchs. And he might reconsider invading Taiwan, where he might just plan better. It might be a geopolitical turning point against autocrats and I have this this sort of moment where, and I have to find it here. I didn't connect it to this but I have a thought called Putin's impotence plus Biden's two state of the Union address feels like a good tipping point somehow. And there was an article by an apple bomb called the impossible suddenly became possible that was pretty interesting in that sense. So with that, Julian, you get to like summarize everything and encapsulated all in like a crystalline prosaic. Maybe it will because I had a minimal check in but I wanted something that Doug said a few minutes ago about study history. Reminded me one of my favorite quotes by George Santaliana about those who do not study history or condemn to repeat it. At least the end then on the note of optimism you just introduced a few seconds ago. So far it looks like we're not going to repeat the Munich appeasement. Yeah, thank you. Thank you all. This has been a great conversation. I love where we go. I love how we go. Plenty to think about from this about men and women about grief about the moment, all of that so see you on the on the inner tubes let's be careful out there. Ciao.