 This is a Bitcoin maximalist. Believing that if you destroy Bitcoin and some other shitcoin is going to rise to the top is delusional. And this is a Bitcoin realist. There's things that other currencies can do that Bitcoin can't. He's been trading for most of his life. If you think trading is easy, that's the fastest way you will actually get wrecked. While he's been huddling since the early days of Bitcoin. I called the 20k Christmas when the price was 4k. I headed Block Show in Singapore for the ultimate crypto showdown. Tone is a terrible trader. I continue to defend Bitcoin against scammy projects trying to overtake Bitcoin. You're watching one of them written on the shirt right there. Everything he just said is false. This is a coin telegraph crypto duel. Hi everyone, I'm Giovanni and today we are here at Block Show with Don Vaze and Richard Hart. The rules of the duel are number one. Participants have one minute to reply. Number two, at the end of the duel, you choose the winner. And number three, there are no other rules. So grab some popcorn because things are about to get spicy. Pound one, Bitcoin price analysis. What's your reading of the current situation in the Bitcoin market? I couldn't really explain the big run up to 14,000 in hindsight. I underestimated how little exodus out of shitcoins it takes to really pump the price of Bitcoin because it's so illiquid on the exchanges. And for the time being, the exodus out of shitcoin has slowed down and therefore the price of Bitcoin is correcting back down. I haven't seen any new mainstream people entering the space and you need new mainstream adoption to rise the price of Bitcoin. I still remain skeptical that the bear market is over. The low might be in, but I still think there is some more downside to go this year. Do you also think that the shitcoins were responsible for that? Here's what happens. You used to be able to do technical analysis, you could draw trend lines, you could buy the Golden 5200 daily, move up. But the game has changed. There's FA, which is fundamental analysis. There's TA, which is technical analysis. And now we've got CA, which is China analysis. On the daily death cross, 52,200 cross, we pumped 40% up on President Xi's good blockchain news. The Asian market responds to news instantly because they are engaged in a way that the West is not. In the West, when President Trump tweets, he said bad things about Bitcoin and Tim Mnuchin, the head of Treasury Department said that it was a national security issue that they don't like blockchain. And I expected the price to move down. Instead, the price went up 10%. And then the next day it moved down with a delay of lag because the traders in the United States aren't engaged in the same way that Asian traders are. So now if you do price analysis like Tone does and you don't have your ear to the ground in Asia, you're unqualified. Anything to add? I've always been a believer in technical analysis. I don't believe the average person has the resources nor the ability to do fundamental analysis. Fundamental analysis is something left to hedge funds, people that can hire a bunch of interns, people that can hire a bunch of analysts. As an average trader, you use technical analysis just because I wasn't able to do a great job in timing the $3,000 low for the big run-up to $14,000. It doesn't mean that technical analysis failed. If I paid more attention, if I was trading and not traveling the world, I'm pretty sure I would have done a better job. I still think if you're going to be a retail trader, the only chance you have is to be a good technical analyst. Do you know how easy it is to press buy when the president of China tweets everyone that he loves the blockchain? It's the easiest thing in the world. Do you know how easy it is to buy when you see that the Asian markets are limit up 10% on any stock that even loosely involves the word blockchain? It was the easiest long in the history of longs. Any fundamental now, China analysis is the only thing that matters when real retail people have earned enough money to get back into the market in the West and start to play until they get rekt. Listen, everyone that's trying to make money, you're going to lose money trading, okay? For sure. The reason that you go to Vegas and those giant buildings are built is because it's built on losers. And if you go and you trade, you will be destroyed, you will be rekt. You do not have any advantage over anyone else in the market. Tone Vays sells an indicator on his website for $800 called the TD indicator. He sells an indicator called TD because it was invented by a guy named Tom DeMark. He doesn't pay Tom DeMark. If you want to learn trading, maybe you should learn it from the guy that he's trying to impersonate and actually license a Tom DeMark product or go to his seminars. Anything to add? Sure. If you think trading is easy, that's the fastest way you will actually get rekt. The TD indicator, I made a couple of changes and basically what you're paying for is you can do it yourself. You can do it for free. The code is public. The math is public, I should say. What you're basically paying for is the code that I programmed for TradingView. And you can either code it yourself at TradingView. You can use free versions. They're all out there. I announce it. Hey, you can use a free version. I can vouch for the accuracy of the math in the free versions. And all you're paying for is the effort that it took me to code up the math that is publicly available. Richard, you said that you were a Bitcoin maximalist and then you moved to a Bitcoin realist position. Can you explain us the meaning of that? It's real simple. Everyone, I got into Bitcoin in 2011 as a minor. I have my full blocks on my own with no pool, which was a 50 block reward at the time. I invested very heavily in 30. I helped make the 30 top back in 2011. I didn't own a bag of Ethereum. The only reason I came out publicly, I was already coming out publicly to try and prove the world with self-help videos, long before Bitcoin was invented. I wanted to make an impact in the world. And then I saw that my Bitcoin investment that I had a lot of money in was being overtaken by Ethereum. And I thought, well, I don't own any Ethereum. And it's funny. I had to come out and defend Bitcoin because no one else would. So both Tony and I have defended Bitcoin against attackers inside and out. And what happens is this project that's been around for 10 years shouldn't have to rely on me to save its ass and do its marketing for it. And there's things that other currencies can do that Bitcoin can't. Ethereum's transactions are more secure than Bitcoin's transactions. Bitcoin's had two inflation bugs where anyone could print as many free coins as they want. One of them was just recently caught by Bitcoin Cash Developer and disclosed honorably. Don, can you defend Bitcoin? I continue to defend Bitcoin against scammy projects trying to overtake Bitcoin. You're watching one of them written on the shirt right there of Richard Hart. We're going to talk about it in a bit. Let's have a hack. So I think you have to do that. If you think Ethereum is more secure than Ethereum's transactions are more secure than Bitcoin, that is just beyond laughable to me. And it's really, really hilarious. How many inflation bugs does Ethereum have? Zero. How many inflation bugs does Bitcoin have? Two. They printed 6 billion extra Bitcoin and had to roll the chain back, right? They rolled the chain back once in Ethereum because a hacker stole a bunch of money. And I can tell you that letting hackers steal a bunch of money and keep it isn't exactly honorable and ethical. And if they could roll back the chain again, they would for Gavin Wood, who's got hundreds of millions of dollars locked up in parity and the parity multi-sig hacks, which is his fault because he missed to use the blockchain and wrote back code, and the polka dot hack, but they're not rolling it back for him. The most inside possible guy that could possibly be rolled back for. I would see more likely Binance releasing their private keys publicly and seeing miners fight over that 50 million stolen from them. Then I would see something bad happen on Ethereum. Round three. Limits of Bitcoin. Richard said that Bitcoin is one of the fastest appreciating asset in the human history. And that's actually the only valuable thing about Bitcoin. There is nothing else about Bitcoin which is useful. Tone, I guess you don't agree. No, of course not. Bitcoin is the only product that is the only cryptocurrency, the only blockchain out there that is actually decentralized, that is actually secure. The amount of mining that goes into it, the amount of code review under developers, they are coding it. And yes, occasionally there will be bugs found and those bugs will be fixed. There is absolutely zero. No one can actually exploit those bugs. The latest inflation bug that was found, it would be totally stupid for anyone to exploit it because all value in all blockchains would go to zero. If the value of Bitcoin goes to zero, anything decentralized in a crypto space immediately dies because then there's actually people with value in Bitcoin that will never invest in any other cryptocurrency. The whole idea of store of value would be gone. You can exploit Litecoin, you can exploit Ethereum because you always have Bitcoin to exit into. It doesn't work the same going backwards. You can't exit through a shitcoin. Everything he just said is false. He took an argument that works for why miners attack the network less because then all their mining equipment be worth less. Then he extended it to a place that 100% does not work. If you're criminal and you don't have any money, you have the opportunity to steal a shitload of money, you're going to steal that money. Just like we've seen, exchanges get hacked over and over and over again and then they sell that money that they stole and the system still works after they stole it, that everyone's still happy to keep sending their money to the same exchange. Nothing that he said is accurate. If you steal the money and you hack the money, then people are still going to use Bitcoin. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The reason why people want to steal Bitcoin is because the protocol is sound and Bitcoin remains valuable. There is actually incentive, some incentive to 51% attack shitcoins. We've seen Verge 51% attack. We've seen Ethereum Classic 51% attack. Eventually Litecoin will be 51% attack as their hash rate continues to go down, B-cash. It would be 51% attack if it wasn't too centralized in order to create checkpoints to basically for them to do whatever they want with the code. The thing is, you can't really exploit Bitcoin code anymore. Might have done it back in 2010 with that initial inflation bug because Bitcoin was really irrelevant at the time. But now you wouldn't do it because you destroyed value. You won't be able to profit from that. Anything to add? I assure you that the hackers that don't hold that much Bitcoin which is why in their business of stealing it instead of just watching and appreciating and living on an island, they don't give a shit if they're the first person to sell it. They're the first person to do the hack. They can open shorts before they do the hack and then they can make money on their shorts and on the money that they just stole. Further? They can't. You can't make money on a short. If you short, let's say, Litecoin you can do it with Litecoin. If you short Bitcoin, your rewards are in the form of Bitcoin. So if you short Bitcoin... The f***ing CME is cash-settled and you can sell cash-settled CME. Not everything is f***ing BitMEX. Not everything settles in Fiat. Not everything settles in the shitcoin or in liquid crypto, right? The founder of XRP was the richest guy in the world. Now he's not. Why? Because he had illiquity, right? The CME is not running out of money. You can short as much on the CME as you could possibly want and there's other cash-settled futures products like BACT, which is releasing options soon even. You can also do Qantas and trade in another coin that didn't get hacked. So I could... Everything he's saying is false. Sure. You can short as CME. They're starting to get a little bit of volume. Everyone always trades in the crypto space. And if you destroy Bitcoin, great. You just prevented me from wasting my next five years. I can move on to another profession. The point is believing that if you destroy Bitcoin and some other shitcoin is going to rise to the top is delusional. Tone is a terrible trader. He called the Bitcoin top at 7000 and it went to 20,000. He has a good excuse for it, right? The easiest long in the entire world when President Xi said nice things about crypto, he missed because instead of trading and making money which he pretends to be good at, he's teaching people, selling them a copy of Tom DeMarc's indicator that he did barely anything to for $800 on his website. It's really $850, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. He sells you dinner with him for $250 because he can't make enough money trading to be able to eat dinner with you for free, okay? He sells for $850 for his trading course, $450 for his stupid indicator that copied off Tom DeMarc. And by the way, he tells you you can't use it safely unless you get my education. And all he's going to tell you is to do is wait for the next candle to wait for confirmation because that's what Tom DeMarc says in his book, all right? He's a terrible trader. He has a terrible, if you counter trade him you're going to make more money. Now what does he do to try and hide the fact he's a terrible trader? He says shitcoins suck, right? And it's been a wonderful position to say shitcoins suck because they do, right? But that doesn't mean he's good at trading. It doesn't mean you should give him money. You don't have to give me money. I don't scam people. I offer services. And if you want to pay for them, you pay for them. If you don't want to pay for them, you don't have to pay for them. At least I'm not printing fake money and giving it away and getting rich on the back end of it. Round four is Richard Hart launching a shitcoin. Richard you are about to launch your own cryptocurrency this month which is Hex which is, as far as I understand, is a certificate exactly a certificate of deposit on the blockchain which can be used to earn interest. So, you define Hex, Richard's upcoming project a shitcoin. So, why do you think it's a shitcoin? He created an F&R. He's basically selling you monopoly money and he has a shit ton of it and if he gives enough of it away and he convinces people to promote it and pays a bunch of trolls and sock puppets to leave comments all over the internet promoting this monopoly money he gave away. He gets to make a lot of money on the back end because he's probably holding the majority of it. Can you defend it? So, while Tone pretends to be able to produce price and pretends to be good at things so that he charges you for them I charge you for nothing I offer better price calls than he does and I offer better performance than he does and I don't delete my calls he may not either so just go and look them up historically I called the 20k Christmas when the price was 4k I called short at 19k you can go verify this he was wrecked the entire way okay now about giving people money you can give him money on your credit card on your PayPal on your bitcoin anyway because he's broken he needs your money I don't need your money I retired in 2003 I give you free price calls free trat now free tokens free self help books you can't pay me money you don't know my bitcoin address you can't pay me credit card I don't have any shopping cart where you could possibly pay me so to be called a scammer by this guy that will do anything he can to make money when I do everything for free as a retired serial entrepreneur is absurd to me now while he talks about crypto and pretends he knows what it's about I'm actually building it I'm actually designing it when I first got into bitcoin and I mined it for free and that's why I went all in on it after I got it for free now the only people that are getting freemium on boarding is Ravencoin and Ethereum and Monero because you can mine it for free and next Don, any replies? if he had any money left he wouldn't be printing money right so my guess is he went broke a little while ago probably due to terrible trading and now he has resorted to printing his own money and promoting it so you can get rich on the money that he's printing what I do is I travel the world and I teach people how to trade if you don't want to pay to learn how to trade you can learn it for free that's all it is can you imagine the tragedy of paying him to learn how to lose all your money when you could lose all your money on your own naturally I give better price calls than him for free period furthermore bitcoin cannot do time locked interest you can lock your coins in bitcoin you receive no rewards if you want to replace the CD which has 7.2 trillion dollars in the United States and China someone has to build it I built it it's open source I give it for free to bitcoin holders we have two security audits from two different companies and one economics audit and one of the auditors is tied for top best auditor in the world for Solidity contracts this guy cost plays and talks about crypto but when someone actually tries to make the world a better place and tries to give you something for free and try and let you buy something that could go very high when bitcoin's already 10,000 you're buying my bags I bought for 30 the people who get rich in bitcoin are three people shills who make money selling you stuff with no risk people that enable the shills margin trading places of which I told you my link earlier right and cocan founders don't really don't think that this new cryptocurrency can help bitcoin so apparently Richard's solution to the financial problems is in bitcoin it's more free perpetual interest at what? 7% a year 10% a year are you at bit connect rates of 1% a day yet when are you going to do that when are you going to offer people 1% interest a day bitcoin miners get paid to push the price down because that's the security model every single bitcoin that exists the 18 million coins that exist now nobody that did anything honorable or ethical was given those coins the developers were not given those coins the people that marketed were not those coins were people that sold them on market to pollute the environment by buying electricity now that's necessary because that's the security model but I can get the same security for pennies on ethereum without paying a million dollars an hour to miners that then use that money to attack that network with a fake bitcoin and try to convince people to buy a fake bitcoin which is what bitmain did having a free currency that doesn't overpay miners and is based on staking so we're a proof of work hybrid our inflation but our transactions are proof of work because that's the only thing that's safe so you really think that proof of work is failable it is an extremely expensive and reliable and trustful thing it's the best thing that we have but it is terrible and it's terrible for the environment I hope we find something better we don't have anything better yet so we do use proof of work for our transactions here's the important point if you want the world to be a better place you have to remove you have to replace he did not build such a system and bitcoin didn't build such a system or would have more than the 2.8 million users total that have a thousand dollars in a wallet that is absolutely pitiful adoption and the only way you're going to get more adoption is if someone has the margin to advertise into the public to onboard new users like the Ponzi schemes are doing the Ponzi schemes have referral programs the Ponzi schemes print you interest and we're doing the same thing now he thinks will be high inflation the inflation is only 3.69% which is lower than bitcoin has ever been furthermore there's no externalities paying miners all of our inflation only goes to the stakers so if you're an average length, average size staker there's no inflation to you because you're the one getting all the coins so we are built to do everything bitcoin does better than it ever did can you guys please like loop the part on the coin telegraph video over and over when Richard said Ponzi schemes give you free interest and we give you free interest just loop that over and over and over and over nice suggestion who else gets free interest bitcoin inflates higher than 3.8% every single year since it's ever existed is a free dividend to people who pollute the environment so bitcoin pays interest not to people that invest in bitcoin but to people that send money to weird countries to make silicone to burn electricity to pollute the environment that's who actually makes all the bitcoin every bitcoin went through one of their hands first and I used to do it I used to mine full blocks on my own 50 block reward with no pull out of 5970 GPU and now I got in for free and then all in and now no one else can get in for free you guys all have to buy my bags that I got for 30 for 10,000 sorry guys round five what is China's influence on bitcoin China embracing blockchain technology what do you think guys is it a good thing for bitcoin or a bad thing this China dealing with blockchain can actually impose a kind of authoritarian turn to the whole environment of blockchain and cryptocurrency it's really irrelevant for bitcoin bitcoin will continue to grow and people will continue to adopt it it's really irrelevant to me what China thinks a blockchain is or isn't one of the reasons why less people use bitcoin today is because of people like Richard Hart promoting Ethereum all over the place and all the shit coins I thought he started doing his own I don't own any Ethereum I've never owned more than $100 of Ethereum in my entire life I've never owned any XRP in my entire life I was a bitcoin maximalist forever but then when you decide you want anonymity you can't do it in bitcoin when you decide you want to replace the CD you can't do it in bitcoin when you decide you want interesting game theory to reward people for doing awesome and honorable things you cannot do it in bitcoin because they only inflate to pay people to f**king pollute the environment that's the only people to pay if you can actually pay the developers to make some improvements you know the last improvement you got bitcoin? two years ago you got segwit which we lied and cheated and steal and I was part of the lying and cheating and stealing to get segwit to get lightning which by the way had critical vulnerabilities and lost people's money which only has 50% more bitcoin in it than wrapped bitcoin with bitcoin as a counterparty on Ethereum people really want stablecoins and you can't get one of bitcoin with that counterparty Dona you're not worried about environmental impact no not at all I'm not it's I mean what what advantage to the world do playing video games brings and like nothing think about how much electricity is wasted every year by people playing video games and compared that to bitcoin mining it would absolutely dwarf it so Ethereum the founders of Ethereum have already admitted that it's an unscalable platform and for stablecoins on top of bitcoin tether has already moved over to the liquid sidechain so I have no idea what Richard's talking about once again everything Dona's saying is wrong okay the majority of tether volume trading is done on ERC20 tokens they used to do it on Omni which used to be on bitcoin but it sucked so bad because it was slow and expensive that they moved the majority of tether trading onto ERC20 tokens which believe it or not hex is also an ERC20 token as TRX was as BNB was as like there's four or five billion dollar companies that are ERC20 tokens right so if you don't think China is important you must be crazy if you don't understand how wasteful bitcoin is and you want it to secure all the world's value the energy burnt has to be proportional to the value to defend it so if you're promoting bitcoin trying to make it take over trillions of dollars of value from the world you've got to burn trillions of dollars of saying that right now it uses less than video games doesn't make any sense because you want it to be big and you want it to burn more electricity furthermore those guys in Ethereum Ethereum's got something called optimistic rollups right now using ZK Starks which could 100x a throughput on the chain because the Ethereum developers now are smarter than bitcoin developers bitcoin developers did two or three good things recently Schnorr signatures go ahead I can imagine a future world where everybody's using bitcoin the pollution will grow accordingly, you know bitcoin can actually scale try to download an Ethereum node good luck with that no one needs a full node no one runs a full node in bitcoin let me tell you about Tone Tone thinks he's smart right Tone thinks he's smart because he runs a full node do you know what kind of full node he runs ones where you double click the EXE and he uses the default settings and when you use the default settings you're just a bitch to the guy that set the default he doesn't compile the source code he doesn't verify that it doesn't have hacks in it if he did we could blame him for those inflation bugs that he didn't catch but he thinks he's smart he doesn't have a nine mining node if you run a nine mining node and the network decides the mining network decides to do something else like stop removing the happening and pay themselves whatever they want he could create his own fork that no one's on and if no one likes his fork they could 51% attack his fork now the UASP the no 2x guys threaten the network and put a gun to the network's head to get segwit and I was part of that and I supported it but in the end the miners are the actual network and if you're not mining you're a bitch yeah the miners lost I was users like myself that won with our non-mining nodes deciding what Bitcoin really is and no I have my we're building a server right now to run all my websites and that's going to be a full node by someone that really understands the system and better than me but it will be a node controlled by me round six effects of the Bitcoin halving next year there will be the Bitcoin halving so what's the outcome of this halving according to you we will see a spiking price or you're not so optimistic about it do you think it's already priced in what do you think so I think that we had a 20k top at the end of 2017 and we've only gone up to 14k in a Ponzi scheme which means we're not front running it it's not over-bought we don't have high premiums anywhere we've got choppy sideways volatility with a lot of news inputs so I think that the reduction in the future supply will drive the price up because I don't think that we're over-bought at this point I think if you believe in supply and demand and you believe the demand is static or increasing then reducing the supply hitting the market is obviously going to influence the price upwards so I'm bullish on Bitcoin and especially because of China now China will say something bad about Bitcoin and it will push the price again and they always do this so be ready for it they're going to say blockchain not Bitcoin and they're going to say something very bad about Bitcoin it's just a question of how long they wait do you agree I'm a technical analyst right now to me Bitcoin has been on a downtrend since the $14,000 top this summer until it proves to me that it's ready to tackle new highs past $14,000 I'm going to remain bearish in the environment I am looking for another low not as low as $3,000 but probably something lower than $7000 if it doesn't come before the having then the $7,200 low is in I let the price prove it to me right now I am looking for a low around the $5,000 $6,000 area before the having and then finally the bull market for me could begin if not if we stagnate here in the $8,000-$9,000 range going into the having then I'll be a bull above $10,000 whenever it starts moving in that direction round 7 year end price predictions one more question for you guys so I'm going to ask you what's your price prediction for the end of the year and then at the end of the year we're going to check who among you got closer to that prediction $11,000 $7,500 to $8,000 $8,000 directly out of my ass I would have absolutely no certainty in this number but I'm more bullish than bearish and it wouldn't be making a new high so I'm okay with the middle ground of chopping around $11,000 seems fine listen don't trade you're going to lose all your money if you're forced to and you can't take my good advice go to RichardHeart.win and smash that buy and sell button as many times as you can and rack up all the fees you can but you really shouldn't trade I'm more bearish than bullish at the moment for the year end I'm more bearish than bullish but trading isn't about the best prediction trading is about risk management setting the right stop losses and having good money management that's what will keep you alive and trading no, total bullshit total lie every single guy that wants to sell you on this idea that he can predict what's going to happen which if he really could he wouldn't be wasting his time out here he'd be on a fucking island somewhere if you think that risk management can make up for bad trades you're 100% wrong because all your stops will get hit if you think a stop loss will save you your stops will be run and you'll be chopped up 50 fucking times until you're finally out of the game you will not make up for bad trading with stop losses you will not make up for bad trading with cash management and let me tell you more about cash management than he'll ever tell you, okay go ahead and google the what's the dude's name theoretically, mathematically proven if you bet 100% of your stack when you're 100% of certain 50% of your stack when you're 50% certain and 30% of your stack when you're 30% certain if you match your bet size to your certainty size it's proven game theoretically the best cash management that exists he doesn't even teach you that shit everyone that pretends to teach you something appeals to cash management or risk management but really it just means you predicted the price properly it's a joke it's a euphemism all right Tony do you have one last comment yeah betting 100% of your stack when you're 100% certain is the fastest way to get wrecked and never trade again good luck with that strategy that was a great discussion guys so Tom Vase and Richard Hart, thanks a lot for being with us, thank you guys for watching and put your comments below deciding who won today's crypto duel Tom Vase or Richard Hart