 We're supposed to send two two slides and it's good to talk about her own slides So It's supposed to last an hour. So 12 By five minutes. It's exactly 60 minutes. So I'm not supposed to talk Okay So if you have any question use Just keep them until the end, okay Uh, hello, come over here. What do we do with that? Good evening. I'm presenting the work of table one one is just is Abstract yeah, firstly Firstly, it's okay. Okay. I We our work Have two part and French speaker, but I'm trying to speak English Thank you very much in my there is two part in this work firstly We have the point one The point what we have recommendation for parents We have early hour It's difficult to read we have point one point. Yes recommendation for parents We have point one in the point point two we speaking about cultural perception of sciences must be considered Must be considered because we think that parent need Need is Some culture in sciences, okay Thank you. Can I speak in French? In French, okay, thank you very much Ah in English just in English English, can I speak in French? Déjà sachant sachant que les malais maman sont généralement avec les enfants où les papas ils peuvent développer la culture de regarder Les films scientifiques ensemble les émissions scientifiques ensemble ceci peut être un bon facteur du développement d'intérêt de la science au niveau de l'enfant Bon au niveau du quatrième point nous pensons que les parents doivent accompagner leurs enfants dans le choix Si les enfants choisissent d'étudier les sciences c'est difficile et les sciences par endroit peuvent renfermer l'enfant sur eux Il faut que les parents soient assez présents pour encourager les enfants pour les accepter tel qu'ils sont les encourager et leur permettre de mieux s'insérer dans la société dont les enfants les appréhens scientifiques ont vraiment besoin du soutien de leurs parents et nous suggérons que les parents soient disponibles à cet effet Bon comme je vais toucher quelques points c'est pas nécessaire de tous les vous lisez déjà on dit que au niveau en ce qui concerne la recommandation pour instructeur nous suggérons que les enseignants intègres, pas androids intègres et ils peuvent aussi qui tiennent compte de l'abstraction des mathématiques qui sachent comment poser les problèmes mathématiques aux appréhens en fonction des contextes pour que l'abstraction ne soit pas un facteur, un obstacle pour l'apprenant en sciences ou en mathématiques donc c'est un peu dans ce sens que nous avons émis le second point en ce qui concerne toujours les recommandations pour les instructeurs Bon nous suggérons je peux dire quoi une éducation bon, déremise à niveau régulier les enseignants dans l'objectif de les pousser à moins discriminer lors de leurs enseignements discriminer les domaines les autres élèves donc peut-être que certains anciens peuvent encourager plus ces garçons à moins de filles de pas à leur façon de parler même inconsciemment ils peuvent ici une fille portable il va dire ah c'est pas ton domaine des sciences fait pour les garçons et déjà ça peut être une source de démotivation donc les enseignants soient éduqués dans ce sens et nous suggérons aussi entre autres des supports des financements pour encourager les femmes dans leur éducation scientifique déjà il y a la maternité qui peut poser problème les femmes ont besoin de support et sachant que les femmes sont aussi sensibles au problème de famille c'est possible qu'elles aient aussi des difficultés un support financier pourrait être la bienvenue nous suggérons aussi la création des espaces scientifiques des activités scientifiques comme des musées peut-être de sciences où les parents, les anciens peuvent développer des programmes des activités nécessaires dans la société peut-être dans les jardins publics durant les week-ends ou dans des musées dans le but de mieux attirer les enfants de développer davantage la curiosité scientifique des enfants nous encouragons aussi la création du moins ce que les enseignants soient tolérants les instructeurs soient tolérants puisqu'il y a des femmes qui peuvent entrer dans les salaves et les bébés qui soient tolérants à ce niveau peut-être qui permettent de la création des espaces bébés pour les mamans donc c'est un peu le résumé de notre travail Je suis dans l'aider Thank you very much Good afternoon I am Fadi Pajosa for Lubumi Abidemi from Nigeria These are the recommendations for instructors and parents At the personal level the parents should talk to kids early on gender issues because the parents stay more with the children and they can impact knowledge into them at that level and whatever they receive at the primary level is very important in their career parents should write books especially on gender balance teach girls on how to negotiate naturally girls don't like to negotiate so we should teach the girls to negotiate and they should not shine away from responsibilities parents should sacrifice for girls they should try to defend the girls from insecurity there are insecurities in different places in the parts of the world so the girls need to be secured parents should also avoid stereotype toys they should buy things that will be exactly what it is not that they will pretend as if this is what the girls supposed to follow there are some parents that don't like science and they tell their children that they don't like science so parents should not be justified by their failure in STEM they should encourage the girls to like STEM and parents should also teach boys about gender equality whenever the boys are around the girls they should not feel that they are superior to girls that this is what the boys can do this is what the girls can do no, we should teach them about gender equality and parents are also supposed to promote self-confidence in girls and at the social level the instructors should organize summer schools so that parents, girls, boys can attend and the team encouraged this summer school to take place during the break when everybody will be available right or e-books written by women not only books written by men creates awareness on equality of boys and girls the instructors at the social level then there should also be media release on television, on WhatsApp, on social media about gender balance there should also be teamwork boys and girls should be put together to work together to have a successful goal and at the institutional level the government should include gender issues in curriculum gender short courses for teachers and parents should be available in all our institutions there should be role model books some of us that are here we are supposed to be role model so we should be able to write something to encourage gender equality biography of role models should be available and we need to write it even at different level the one that will be suitable for kindergarten for high school students for poopies even at high level because we find that even at high level girls drop out from institution because they don't have a mentor they don't have a role model so there should be a biography of role models in the institutions there should be a regular motivation talk from people in the field maybe the institution can organize a kind of talk a kind of seminar, lecture whereby somebody that is that is vibrant in the field can come and give the lecture and the students will benefit and finally there should be gender equity in the admission process in the maybe also accommodation the way the institution handle the students there should be gender equity thank you hello everyone I am Salman Exiewi I am table leader 3.1 in this few minutes I will try to report discussion in our section group and about recommendation for instructor and parents first when I ask the question based on your experience what are the initiative you recommend in the direction for instructor and parents for reducing the gender gap in size there is a reaction which is should we should we recommend to parents what they should do or shouldn't do since they have different cultures and there is no chance to change mentalities but parents from all over the world they are similar in the way they want the best for their children and especially for their daughters so we suggest we give them suggestion and some recommendation in my presentation I try to organize this suggestion by the most seated and by group similar or near idea so among the most seated recommendation information should be disseminated about opportunities of getting a science education in several level parents, children, teachers and especially parents should know that size is everywhere and it's good opportunity for career and another among the most seated recommendation another idea which is repeated again and again invokes role model of women in size promoting women in teaching at all levels teacher should highlight the contribution of women in size present role models of women in size invite successful model of women share women in size jobs other recommendation is about equal treatment for boys and girls avoid stereotype like that's not good for girls you can't do it and more than that switch stereotypes and give encouragement for girls you are good in this and another point evoked is parents should participate and bring their children to science activities workshop, picnics, open days for teacher and educator there is some recommendation educator should track who they are calling in the class to ensure every student has a chance to participate and they should encourage the speaking of girls in class because girls don't participate like boys in classes training more science activities another recommendation is to let the student understand their competence their competence and support girls to do scientific choice in secondary school and there is points that created polymics like use more and more inclusive English language as like she and single sex classes in college secondary school and there is also a recommendation which seems to be contradictive always changing the group in class mixing girls and boys and in this two recommendations there is a point the similar arguments is to make girls release on their self other suggestion which is more or less seated normalize failure make sure that there is a gender gap in books I recognize when we make the discussion that all participants are worried about gender gap in educational system in books ok, finally ok, thank you, good afternoon everyone, we have come from the table 4 I think that we have 23 people can share with us together I think for me it is more in summary because the group 1 2, 3 is almost the same so I just highlight in the recommendation as a structure to reduce gender gap is to strengthen leadership for boys and girls but for all of the problem that mentioned before by the other group gender awareness training educational structure starting from the kindergarten until university and then for this as a parent it is also the same but maybe we should aware when having girls for example we always should find a way to inform about good practice and also about success about women and the highlight also is just gender awareness training need for parents to boys and girls starting from home, I think that's it, thank you very much Instructor, did you do everything yet? 3 minutes so many minutes I don't know how to stop it really, ok so now we are going to the second question which was about institutions, laboratories, departments I take the opportunity to thank how do you say your name? for the first slide, ok I'm using your first slide and the last one too ok I would like to thank you who is Alba? you want to do the blackboard? sure yes sure is there anything to whenever you want to start take the time so good afternoon all my colleagues I'm going to change the style of the presentation I'm going to allow you to read this slide and I have the pleasure and privilege to talk to 22 colleagues most of them were very strict on saying that most of the listed topics there should be mandatory please raise your hand, my colleague that was always there so if you want to discuss why multidisciplinary master program to increase growth and participation are needed extra courses promoting inclusion based on one's capacities motivational programming strategies to train the counselors on how to navigate into financial and personal challenges, discourage negative attitudes towards career decisions, taking advantage of connections to make the mandatory retirement age and I have a great initiative that I just read in one of the posters Silver Haired Woman by Mira Respect Integration in Projects Before and After Retirement means to use their expertise helping younger women in their careers and develop procedures or mechanisms for voluntary involvement of retired scientists, I think we are losing a lot of time but I think it's important that we get some help and new ideas I want us to change biases, changing institutional structure, promoting tenure committees, changing how we reward and value people's work, extracurricular contributions and if we go on on this list, have you read it all? Okay, keep going. Is there anything new that you haven't heard before? Just write your hand. Can I go to the next slide? Please check the next slide. Let me know if there is anything new. Anything new? We can turn the light. I'm just going to use the language that we use to communicate so we can either think in terms of mathematical terms or in terms of physics and in physics we think that we are particles and we are waves and we found a way to introduce a connector that was energy. We know there is a momentum and we know there is a wavelength and we know that the momentum is equal to h bar and the wave number and this is what I think this is missing, what is this connector that is going to bring us together and in terms of expression of detecting the difference everyone knows that if we are checking here velocity or we are thinking this is gender we have a symmetry in time of all the discrete areas that we can consider here to introduce that this is going to be velocity or gender in terms of times in a delta T. So I think what you are reading there is what we have been repeating gender climate, gender difference, gender discrimination gender plus something else so what is there going to be the new integrative way of looking at gender that is going to be in the report and that report should take into account that when we talk about science and engineering we have to ask the question and the question is let me, I wrote it here, is it going to be a permutation or a combination? What is the difference between permutation and combination, my dear colleagues? What is? It's order. We have faced permutation where order matters, if Carlos, Alba, Natalia, Joseph, Jim are applying for a top position in the university we know who is going to be taken out and that permutation is going to show that gender in terms of the number of people that we have to accommodate and the number of positions we have to accommodate has a specific expression that you probably all of you have in your mind right now the permutation of and it hasn't worked for us but there is another one which is a combination and what is important about combination? Order doesn't matter so in terms of physics we have to find the connector and in terms of quantum mechanics if I have to write it quickly quickly quickly because I know it's only one minute science has also another barriers that we haven't discussed here, cultural barriers age barriers and for us many of us who are not from the European countries a language barrier and gender in my table is a word that not all the countries recognize and this is important to take into account and this is going to be my last contribution I want to share from sorry this is the cultural range of spectrum whether gender is really awarded all the cultural use and there is another one, we need representatives of a younger generation, increase participation, partnerships, voices I want to hear them because there were students that they said they want to speak about issues that they have been facing too and I hope they can be one of the connectors that we need here because my guest in the table and through the whole conference is we have been focused on one age, I'm closer to my fifties and we still have people going through their fifties, fifties, fifties and we need to understand what are they facing too and increase cultural understanding of science and technology this is my last message, I promise we are talking about men and women but believe me technology is better than technology next phase is going to be human versus machines robots, cyborgs, posthumans thank you. The energy in the room just went up this is brilliant so this presentation breaks the mould because it says because, apparently one of the most persuasive words in any language is because I've put together things place someone in the institution lab or the environment to whom complaints can be made and who acts on them and who is definitely a woman but I think there was the intention that a woman who is responsive, not a woman who just cuts it off because sometimes complaints are dismissed as trivial, they aren't followed up he was just winking at you, there was no harm intended, maybe the vice chancellor is the one who responds or the head of the institution in one case wanted to use your ICTP grant for something else. This was quite serious, this discussion and it ran through three tables but protection from violence without compromising education was a major topic at this table particularly because some universities represented in the groups coming through close at 7pm for girls but boys have access all the time labs are closed to girls because there might be harassment, library access is closed to girls because there might be harassment, girls may not be allowed to go and get books from the library except at campuses where they are specifically for girls only but girls still go home at a certain time that means that boys can study in groups but girls are at home alone and struggling with the textbook. So the policy might be freedom for boys must be freedoms for girls in one case there was cell phone confiscation cell phones are taken away and that's why that's a recommendation and these are well intentioned to protect girls but what they're doing is they're taking their ability to get an education down. University policy should assist women to get grants, of course but the reason for this is money does give power and a voice. You are nothing until you've got that big grant for a conference and now everybody wants to be involved. There were definitely cases of isolated women, one woman PhD among eight male PhDs and there were suggestions of making an informal network across departments then formalising it then using it to gain access because Ms. Gledhill is not invited but Dr. Gledhill, we didn't know she was a woman. At coeducational campuses things turn out to be tougher so things need to change because in some countries women are only succeeding at all female campuses so these are institutions that need to make changes. Many women find that they have to leave at the end of the masters because they are harassed to give up so that men get the scholarships or at least that was the understanding there and because the PhD is a one to one relationship and if there aren't many women supervisors then the harassment may be more severe there. So there's a recommendation for this reason to retain and promote women onto the staff to increase the number of supervisors who are unthreatening and subsequently because women leave the country to get a PhD provide resources for them. Help the confidence of the girl child and there were a number of recommendations that came through that were for individuals and I know that we can help individuals as well. Words are important teach yourself to dare use the fact that I'm the only woman here to get resources and great motivators who came through in these three groups said we are the pioneers paving the way for others. We are the ones making the changes. Lots of good ideas I will try just to sympathise I think so do not read now because the question was what institutions should do almost all of us agreed that we should help clear transparent policies and the rules we should follow written somewhere, public somewhere and there was an idea sorry do you hear me now? I hope you have heard me also anyway so the it was suggestion that certification like Athena Swan could be very useful and then maybe to suggest the European Union Council to accept only the proposals from the institution who have that certification and certification process also force men and women to consider what should be put in the documents when it's serious then they know. So what should be in the documents clear anti-harassment policy and line of action then diversity plan and targets with financial consequences if not met which means you give somebody money to have a project if he or she promised to have gender balance if he didn't do it or she didn't do it have a financial consequences and insist on budget for gender equity diversity inclusiveness promotions. Also the big point was to change the way evaluation and promotions are made. So one idea to have the unconscious bias training for every member of the committee but also to have dedicated person in the committee who take the documents that all our plans have been done and also we strongly advocated that assessment should not be just being counting. One of the good examples is just that candidates should nominate best five papers and transparent hiring which means we would like to see promotion statistics how many women have been applied for positions and who got it. The next big point is the second point is to develop strategies for undergraduates which are sensitive to local cultural context. We have realized that the situation in India for example is completely different than in Europe which means that we would like to monitor well being and progress of female academicians. We believe that men must be involved in identifying barriers and addressing them so career mentoring and there was a talk about it today that it is very important to identify role models which are appropriate for some level so if you are talking to high school students then maybe you should give an example of somebody who is at the very beginning of her or his career. Good practice is reentry grants which exist in some countries and I've heard yesterday so that Imperial College has a policy that year after maternity leave you have permission just to research and do not have teaching load. Also it is a big problem in some countries parental leave and there is also problem that we don't have child friendly working environment especially during the summer break and provide safe laboratories you have just elaborated it and at the end the third point I think it's important institutions should invest in public engagement should communicate and raise awareness of science study especially because of the female scientist we have heard here that it was very important for many of them to have support of family so families should know what we are doing and families should be informed it is important from many aspects to be visible in media we get money for that we don't know what we are doing there is no money and institutions should show that we have female scientists and they should be visible. Thank you. I suggest if you I know it's just an error it's just a different subject the next person is Natalia I don't know I don't understand they are missing one again I don't know a gap so you can start sorry but there is a gap a gap in the slides a gap in the slides there is a gap in the slides that's my presentation it was difficult to make summary because most of the things were said on the table many of them were already in the report as suggestions I tried to highlight the ones that were explicitly written in the suggestions in the report the first one was something manifestos for gender equality institutions perhaps this was the institutional level the organization level UNESCO level, government societies etc that society should have explicit manifestos for gender equality many do not do that's one I want to share best practices and activities that can be organized specifically different websites of societies can say to universities or people who are interested this is something that you can do like a course or a summer school and this is how you can do it and even have presentations and materials that people can use to do these activities and of course share the results of this project I want to share some of the suggestions that can be interested in terms of leadership one thing that was mentioned is of course we want to increase the number of women in leadership position but we have to make a lot of emphasis and it's like not any women women who are allies who are really driven to discuss because otherwise it doesn't matter like you have a woman if they're not going to put programs these allies sometimes could also be men because we talked about the fact that if it's only women we already have a lot of work at our institutions like being the only few women so if we only always have women in these committees it's even more work for us so we have to search for allies both men and women in terms of programs I think that's essentially been said and done sometimes but yeah it's specific for women and eliminate age requirements for grants and other programs so I move here I think I'm going to be done soon oh that's okay and okay so there was this thing for family accommodations that perhaps was to be included more in the first part but because this was about organization this was about loving in because in many countries it's still the case that children go to school only half of the day like from 8 to 12 or from 2 to 6 and of course this stops women from being able to have full-time careers because in most cases arranging childcare after hours is very complicated so governments have to be aware that this is a barrier for including more women not only in STEM in the workforce full stop and so the red ones were like the ones who were really like the most strong recommendations which is all these things have to be written into law or in some of the ways be enforceable because in many cases we have loads of recommendations in web pages of institutions and so on but recommendations that cannot be enforced are good for nothing in terms of outreach that's very much being said but it was mentioned a lot outreach programs and going back to government well create laws and affirmative action and I think one of the most important comments that was made if we want to reach gender equity or gender parity in STEM or anywhere you do have to include more women and hire more women but at a higher rate than men because otherwise mathematically it's impossible to continue 50, 50, 50, 50 because that's going to take a lot of time to reach to change a system where already a lot of men are already in the system so that was one of them another very important one that they say is improved pay for science teachers because in many countries it's the case that you don't have people studying science anymore so you're not going to have people studying science if you don't have people studying science so that was another thing that was raised and then requires specialist committees systematically check laws, practices and policies for equity and diversity and the last one which was mentioned several times and I think it's particularly important is literal propaganda publicity campaigns because it's impossible that in this day and age we still come and say but what about men and we don't want to hurt their feelings so I think we need propaganda to say this change is not only for women this change is also for men and men and women have to be convinced that it's for the good of society not only for the good of women and that's it, thank you could continue next person but like Caroline? so I chose to synthesize this material into how societies and professional societies but I had in mind can actually act and make change and I hope that this is useful so that you know how to better engage your professional societies as someone who now sits in a professional society I do want more members to come to me but it helps when they know how I can actually take action so I broke it down into the five vehicles that I have and serve and that is as standard bearers and standard setters for the profession and it's just recognizing that they have a very public place and what should they be doing with that public visibility the second is that organizations if you think of them as some sort of umbrella they can push information to members and to members that are dispersed across a very large geographic area so that's spreading a lot of information third they can take information from their members so they're this umbrella it now comes up from many different points and so from many different views so they do serve as this great place that's going to collect different ideas than you just might say within your own university fourth they can connect across members so if they're serving as an umbrella and members are here I picture the line coming up and then going back down they serve as this central spoke that connects people at different universities and institutions that might not otherwise find each other and finally what societies are able to do is collaborate across with other societies and only then am I seeing that you really have the opportunity to influence policymaking bodies so from the information that we gathered from our different groups I gave one example of each of these and then in the paper print out that we give to Colette I've got everything there so if anyone from my group like my idea didn't make it I was just trying to keep things tidy on a slide alright so as far as standard bears and standard setters obviously society should have their internal policies have a component for gender equity and state how that will be implemented into leadership committees conferences publications and awards which we've already heard from other groups in terms of what societies can do to push information from their organization down to their members societies are a great place to hold toolkits we always are saying well who has good information on training for implicit bias or on showing a conference how to have good processes for parents so societies are a place where they can hold that information toolkits could include any of the following that I've listed there what's been really fun since I've been here is as you walk out the bottom like when there's a fire drill out the very bottom door there's a coffee area and there's in Italian tape to the table the manifesto of non hostile communication for science societies are a place that can take that document and help push that out as toolkits and Monica who's here has translated has gotten us the English translation if anyone's interested in that so the third thing sides do is take information from their members and professional societies are in a unique position to hear the concerns from members across a geographic region and they therefore have a responsibility to do something with the information that comes up and this is exactly why harassers can move around right that university didn't know about it the harasser move somewhere else the the the society is in a place when those complaints come up to start connecting those dots and so I urge you to push your societies to serve in that role but it's difficult and so many aren't doing that if you take information you have a responsibility to have a plan for acting on such information particularly information from disenfranchised groups and then in order to connect across members which is something else society can do they can serve to foster networks like early career people or women in a certain field otherwise how do women at smaller disparate universities and colleges actually find those that they could be working with and finally something else societies can do is they collaborate across societies and with policy bodies so societies serve as the point of contact often for government and policy making bodies when they need subject matter expertise so those societies need to have the names of women who are subject matter experts so they can pass them on when policy making bodies ask them for information okay so I'm going to summarize some ideas that came up in my table for three so organizations should revisit vision, mission, goals and objectives and include in case they do not exist diversity principles in them also have chapter for women and or gender issues ensure that conferences have a reasonable percentage of women as a speakers and as members of the scientific committee not only the organizer committee promote women representation on awards committees and prizes nominations provide ethical charters including diversity and harassment provide access to information and support services for sexual harassment impart mentoring schemes for students and early career staff for example when I was very young I didn't know how to apply to a grant for example in the case of my PhD and so on and finally this is a point that came up in every group and is to disseminate the idea that this must be an effort of everyone not only women, thanks about recommendation for institution there is gender policy strategy is important start point it must be effectively it's important implemented and monitored but this is not enough because we have a second point but we call gender audit we should access and check the institutionalization of gender of gender equality in organizations including in their policies programs project and so on another point is to introduce this is about gender quota to introduce policies and laws mandating gender quota and this will depend on countries for some countries it's important to mandate this gender quota and the main aim of this laws is breaking the glass saline which prevent women from advancing into top corporate position the other point is to to convince women to be in committee for women in every specific organization and for this I believe that we should have strategy toward women to convince them to be to be to to be in committee and another point is transparency as tool for gender equality gender related data has to be reliable get the real situation recruitment and selection procedure should be transparent and we need transparent awarding grants another point is to exhibit of parties of women scientific in education institution and in international organization and also to have some poetry of women scientist in school text books this make marketing science to girls with soft strategy while taking into account the country's specificity and making it sound cool this idea was from participant from Philippine and when he explored this idea it was very funny because he was talking about presenting girls sexy and it was very funny maybe he can say more things about this and design strategies to convince women to join women scientific artist network increase women representation at all levels selection process should be gender sensitive and recruitment committee composed of female and male representative increase the representation of women at higher levels and the leadership position in universities also at university level allocate suitable hours for teaching duties and reduce teaching load for women having children and grant the maternity leave for both parents and the last point is to assign a representative of the gender champion network and I just what I want to say that as women involved in this gender gap we have a responsibility and we should make effort and design strategies to go toward this women because sometimes when we ask women to join network or to do something for women they don't want to be involved so we have to do something in this way thank you thank you hopefully I'll keep this short as it's the last one of the day this is looking at the recommendations for the the national organizations and above as I've put it here I've distilled the information there's quite a lot of discussion from the table and hopefully I haven't distilled it too much that I've lost some of the information but the first off is the recommendations that these are sort of fairly general comments that for the recommendations I think some of them need to be a bit more specific and concrete there's some very nice statements there but they actually if we want to make them recommendations they just need to be tidied up a bit I and we've also heard some lots of great recommendations and initiatives but it would be good to actually see them linked with the the data and the strategy from the project and it's has been a someone else has mentioned about a following through and making sure that whatever recommendations are looked at that there's a way of actually doing some level of feedback and following up that completing that loop and not just letting them happen and disappear if there's a way of of following up that would be that should be recommended and if we're talking about objectives and recommendations if we can make them quantitative where appropriate that would be a good thing then I think it was Caroline who's talking a bit more about the structure of the of the societies and what they can and can't do I so one of the recommendations is for say that the unions or national national bodies is to take the recommendations and make them more specific for their context and culture so that's the recommendation is that for each of these these bodies that they're actually taking the recommendations and and as I say making them more specific for their their context some of the more specific recommendations that came out of our table I it's really for the national organizations is to advocate at the top levels so again talking to governments talking to the national bodies making sure that you're actually advocating for for whether it's the paternity leave or or whatever it is that you're actually advocating at the top levels and also to advocate for equity across organizations within the remit there's so there's a lot of good practice and there's a lot of good work that's that's out there I so what the the national organizations can perhaps do is actually try and make sure that that good practice is is evenly spread across their organizations a few people have mentioned the creating or supporting a woman's network again if they haven't already got a woman's network that that's a good thing to do to advocate for broader measures of evaluation is with something which which came up and also this idea of working from the taking what working from the from the ground up and having those links with the with with individual members is being able to take local good practice and actually scale it up and again share and the good practice within your organization and then with the with the unions I mean that part of this project is all about sharing the good practice and the databases obviously about sharing good practice but make it the recommendation that the unions essentially continue to talk to one another and share that good practice and the recommendations so that that was all I had to say I am wondering sort of how these recommendations play out within the group I mean for example one of the recommendations was not having age limits on grants I know that the age limits are designed to uh for particular reasons and as an alternative to not having age limitations one could do what was being described yesterday afternoon by Jean Pierre so uh I I don't know quite what to make of this as a recommendation uh of not having age limitations on grants I mean are these just things we are tossing out the clock among ourselves are these things we are going to be saying yeah okay yeah I mean right now we it's not really a synthesis of the recommendations I mean it's just a presentation of whatever of the 12 groups have been proposing so it does not mean that everything that we've seen now is going to be part of the final recommendations of a project so I think you have to trust that we we have a committee which is running the project with representatives of all the unions and it's this committee which is at the end going to write recommendations so we are going to try to be inspired but obviously I mean this is more or less what everything was said around the table it cannot be the case that everybody agrees and all the partners agree so it's just material that we are having that we are going now well I don't know I mean now we and Colette has to put them together in any case I think we should really be be clear that there are some recommendations that are coming from the task of the project because we produce some information or some suggestion okay so that will be part of the recommendations now there are also recommendations that are coming from the fact that all together we are here we we managed to to have all these big community of people coming from so different disciplines and countries and they made the list we've seen so we are going to try to get something out of it it's not the same thing as something coming from the task because in the task we have been really studying deeply some problems here it's just like you know 100 people talking during two hours and that's it but I think nevertheless it's interesting and we can say some things maybe but right now it's kind of still a little chaotic I think of course I mean we cannot be different but what we need to organize it and then to decide about it I think Jean Pierre said Jean Pierre Bourguignon said that you know if you had a child you can extend the age limit by 18 months and it's I mean they do it at the European level but it's really done elsewhere you know you just have the amount where you were gone which means six weeks in some countries four months in some other countries it's just nothing so you may you know try to push a bit forward I don't know if people are going to agree on that but that's going toward that thing you know I wanted to ask Caroline who talked about like following something oh there for societies okay for societies you said like having a I don't know how you word it but a like having a list of people who were had been fired for harassment so that they couldn't go to another institution that a I don't know I mean is it that we are trying to punish people for life or we are trying to get people to change and be reinserted in another institution plus I don't know how you would do that and at an international level with and also I mean in a legal way also I would like you to comment on that so there's currently a project in the United States called Project Callisto and different organizations could join it either universities or for example societies and when a complaint comes to them through usually in the US it's the human resources office they take a complaint that gets entered into this system and it's locked it's a locked complaint and when there is a match and a complaint comes in against the same person in other places then they are connected and they are shared with the organization where the person's affiliated so for example the American Mathematical Society has some people who are harassers at conferences grad students have complained that you know they're being hit on and followed around and so on and so that organization you have one person who hears it once and who's like I'm I'm so sorry but why don't you just sit on the other side of the room as opposed to a consistent pattern and now they can say we're you're not allowed at this conference anymore so something like that would be a use in application or at least what I Hi I just wanted to follow up a little bit on on that idea last night we had a conversation during dinner about the fact that a lot of these issues sometimes are not globally handled but they might be handled at a level of institutions and they in the it depends on the gravity of the issue they might be handled in different ways there are practice called restorative justice practice and a variety of others where people are addressed and you know issues are tried to be resolved at an institutional level I think what Carolyn's point was is that societies can offer an unsilowing effect rather than people being siloed in their own institutions and not knowing the fact that these organizations are umbrellas can create a sort of communication and create a system where these things are more in the open and people have different resources to deal with them as I move the talking stick to the next person I'd like to comment that it must be fair was in I was in a meeting where somebody said when we were discussing sexual harassment the victim is always right and the woman next door said my my son was unfairly accused and taken out of his class in front of everyone else kept out for two semesters while the case was heard and then exonerated I think Sylvia made a point that of course we don't want to punish somebody for life I mean even criminals when they come out of jail have to be given a second chance the main thing is to send out a signal to all the rest of society including men and women this should not happen again and also referring to the age thing I think that trade should be reworded because grants are certainly given out in age brackets I mean you have early career so you can't have a 60 year old person applying for an early career program because there are different allotments I think it's it's it's for young people yes but yeah well I got my phd when I was 43 that's true but I didn't have a chance to apply for a young investigator's word but in China we have relaxed that for the difference between men and women for the young investigator's word so the women it used to be 35 across the board but now for women it's been raised to 40 so that's an improvement I think okay yeah I want to make a precision about that summary so it is the case that in some countries the the brackets are defined on age and not on like how many years after your phd and so on and that was kind of partly precisely the issue plus on top of that I do agree that you know if you get your phd at 45 and that's the age for whatever reason that happened to your life that's the age you're starting a career well you should have access to start a career at 45 or 50 or whatever because a lot of women like you know have children before or are in like relationships where like they're not being supported and so on and so maybe they will start their careers later so I think it's important to consider that too there's the stop the clock policy um for children oh I thought I was skipping because I was going back to the other to the other subject and I think it also depends well at an international level I think it's a little harder to do because they are very different laws and cultures and things it's very it's complicated I understand that have something that is private because I thought you were saying like publicly going like the me too kind of thing at the level of the society that's what I thought you meant anyway but I also know that there are like different ways of trying to handle these cases like whether it would be good to try to reinsert the harasser to I don't know in a way that wouldn't behave in that way anymore or something so that it's not that you just want to get rid of that person but you want to reformat that person somehow I don't know if it's possible though but they're like different ways of handling these problems recognizing that the harasser may not have realized that the behavior was problematic so just even like identifying that