 Welcome back to the breakfast and it's time for our first hot topic and we'll be taking a look at the cost of insurgency in the country. We have as our guest Reverend John Hyap, he's a chairman Christian Association of Nigeria Kaduna State. Reverend you are welcome to the program. Thank you for having me and good morning to all Nigerians. Oh welcome. Reverend I think the best place to start is to ask you what is going on in Kaduna even as we speak. What is the problem right now? Well as we speak I am actually in Kaduna I'm speaking to you from Sarwantesha in Kaduna precisely in Sarwantesha and people are out there doing their normal businesses but the challenge we are facing at the moment is in the Sobo and some of the distant local governments where bandits that we thought had flee, bandits that we thought that have been neutralized, bandits that we thought that have gone away and still have a field going about killing, destroying innocent lives and properties of citizens, bringing back fear even as we approach the new government, people are beginning to say wait a minute. We thought we are getting out of this but what is what is happening? Are we really out or there is something worse that is about to come? Alright so the concern is that lives are still being taken in that place properties destroyed matter of fact thousands have been killed. There is a saying by Gumsu the daughter of the former head of state in Nigeria talking about General Abacha. She said that if insurgency lasts for more than 24 hours the government has a hand in it. Do you share this saying by Gumsu Abacha in looking at the situation the prolonged attacks on your state. Do you have any concerns that government may not be trustworthy? Truly speaking I have said this and I want to repeat that our government have not done well, our government have not been honest with us. Another government show that is in charge. What we find every day is the normal rhetoric, the manipulation of the situation and give a picture as if a lot has been done but nothing has been done and I will say this without fear of contradiction. One of the reason why one of the things I've just realized that it's simple and a cheap way of stealing our money because when government refused to deal with criminality like this, when government failed to deal with people killing lives like this, she just hide under these whole incidences and continue to siphon public phone and say she spent security. If you listen to the last report our government gave, the amount she is presenting out there that she spent for security and then you see the killings going on. The report that is out there is a report from just one tribe. I think Gumsu knows, the report of 570 people killed is just a report of atyap, atyap but you have not said what happened. Chawi have not said what happened. Kaburo have not said what happened and you know in recent most of the killings have been done in Kaburo in large number. The people in Sanga have not said what happened. Then you come to the worst hit that is the Adara in Khaju local government have not said what happened and Chikun have not said what happened. So when you begin to put all these numbers together, you will wonder how do we really still exist as a nation that we have government that people can be killed in such number, property can be destroyed in such number and nothing happened, no one is arrested, nobody has been brought to justice. Every day we just hear stories on television, stories on the pages of newspaper, it is very unfortunate. So government knows very well that our aunt is well in this matter. I mean I was going to ask you if the figures are really correct because the figures before us are 518 people killed. Just in Atyap land. But they say it's 18 villages. They said it's 18 villages. Are these 18 villages? Just in Atyap land. Just in Atyap land. That's why. So our viewers to know, Atyap is just one tribe in Zengong Katap local government. And Zengong Katap local government has 4 chiefdoms. There is the Atyap chiefdom, there is the Bajju chiefdom, there is the Ipulu chiefdom and there is also Kamantheng chiefdom all in Zengong Katap local government. So we're just dealing with one tribe in one local government and you know if you've been following the stories of Kaduna state and the killings in southern Kaduna, you know you've heard about Kaguro. Kaguro is not on this Pigo. You know you've heard about Manchuk. Manchuk is not on Marwa. Marwa is not on this Pigo. You know you've heard about killings in Sanga. Sanga is not on this Pigo. You know you've heard about the killings in Gajuru. That is in Atyap land. These tribes are not in this Pigo. You've heard of the killing in Chaway. Chaway are not in this Pigo. I'm just, we're just speaking about one tribe in one local government that have four chiefdoms. So what do you think is an estimated number, if you might, that has fallen? Because if 518 are just in one tribe, what figure are we looking at as a total figure that might have been victims of this insurgency? When you are dealing with a government, be careful when you use figures, because they would just want if one dot of that figure is wrong, then they wouldn't talk about the substance of the story. They would just use that as excuse to cover every important figure, but thousands of lives have been lost. All right. My question is, haven't seen that these killings have continued year after year with mutinous rampageant bandits attack village after village in different parts of the country. We're talking about not just Kaduna, Bauchi is there, Zamfara is there, Sokoto is there, and some other parts. Let's focus on Kaduna for a minute. What are the things that the people are doing to protect themselves, apart from waiting for government and trusting government and not trusting government? Because the issue of trust has been raised here. What other people have they resorted to any kind of self-help, or are they just helpless and waiting for the worst to happen, even as they do not trust that government can help save their lives and properties? Look, let me put it in this clear perspective. The people have been doing a lot to protect themselves, but this is where the challenge is. One, those who come to attack those people in their sleep come with sophisticated weapons. The other time I went to that community and I gathered all the clerics and I was advising them that we must intensify our effort in self-defense, we must bring strategy that we can protect ourselves. One of the leaders just after listening to me said first of all, we are doing what we say and we've been trying our best, but here is the challenge. When you listen to the sound of the gun of these people, it will take a strong heart to stand here, just coming with a den gun, with a stick, with a cordless, and the sound of the gun, you know, cheers to the thousands of youths that may have come courageously. That is one. Number two, we have reports from our people out there that any time they even hear the sound and some of them pick courage and want to go and defend us, render support. They will find the military coming to stop them to go and render support to that community that is under attack, but some people who are destroying life and killing people will have a field day to kill and destroy homes and go away, no arrest and no trace of where they come from. So why is the government interested in blocking the people from going after the criminals who are disturbing and denying them peace and then allowing the criminals to have a field day without doing anything? That's why if you read that report you are going through, you would see that the community even said they don't even trust the military that are there, because the categorically said that the commander who is in charge should be removed because he has compromise. There are many instances that will give that sometimes even people with knives and these den guns will be arrested by security and they will come and drop them here in Katuna or somewhere the police say they will go to their farm, they have no other source of life they would. So when people want to defend themselves and they realize that they are the basic of what government determines that is self-defense and what is not self-defense, then that is where the new problem is. Are people courageous? Are people not people who are giving cheaply to fear? But we are having a situation where the bandits are on the other side. The institution that is supposed to protect us also is hitting us and crept in unnecessary tension and even looking for excuse to arrest some of our youths and just lock them up. That is why the idea and the effort of self-defense have not yielded enough fruit. We have tried the issue of dialogue, the issue of peace but this is another challenge we face. We are dialoguing with people who do not even know who are the insurgents. We are dialoguing with people who have no business, they may belong to the same tribe or the same identity of the insurgents but they cannot deal with that. So the insurgents are people who do not belong to this same flag, the same other group that we are staying with. They are criminals who have vowed to terminate our people, take over our land and cause harm on our people. Certainly government that is supposed to protect lives and property is not protecting us but actually hiding on the misquieses and blaming people. If you want a situation where a real honest dialogue will come, no honest dialogue would come, you just hear blame game out there and think that's why our people have just resolved to also pass on the same blame, let the world know their story and know that look what you are hearing that they are trying to paint all black is like someone who have killed you, cost you hard and you are whipping, you are crying. This state of coming to commissioner with you is now accusing you just to cover up. Well paint for us a picture of how the Kaduna people survive now. Let's know how this insurgency has impacted on the economy of Kaduna state and its people. Let's know how you survive. Let me let me I'm going to use one small statement to explain what you said. Yesterday I had to send food home to the village and when the driver was to leave there someone was asking where they mean faster you mean from Kaduna you are sending food to your parents and put your relatives in the village and I said yes in the past it was the responsibility of our parents to send us in the city food to augment the little salary we are having but these days they can't farm they don't have food if they go to farm they won't come back alive so many of them cannot even afford what to eat that is the situation before you even talk about paying students movies before you talk about medical bills they don't even have what to eat there are many families in many of our local communities that in the past four years have not invested any crop it is the same crop they would eat it is the same harvest that they will sell and pay students movies is the same harvest that they will sell and pay medical bills they don't have it they are living in fear they have no food they have nowhere to go and if they even try to make effort they are arrested so that's the kind of situation we are so nobody has taken over the state you will hear fantastic stories about constructions and others it's just a city game you're a city fencing there is nothing in the state I was in Choway a few weeks ago honestly speaking you won't even believe that this point is part of my theory Obasani has been elected as governor of Cardinal state he's going to take over from Nassau air five and it's been said that he is uh he's anointed candidate um how do you respond to the fact that a government you do not trust is handing over uh the button to the incoming governor well uh I will leave some response about this for another day but let me put it this way there is an effort from his team from his transition team to correct some of the wrongs uh some of his inability to speak out his mind was because he wanted to win by all means and he don't want to offend the man whom people say is his anointed candidate but I want to set the idea of that even if it is erophized biological sound that takes over from him give them six months you will know the difference you will know the truth there are certain things people will not do when you have a man who have no heart who have no sympathy who do not care who even look for controversy please don't talk everybody I think I've known Oba for a very long time I don't want to go into the politics of what is going on but Oba cannot be erophized so people shouldn't but I can also say this but interest of the public yesterday his committee reached out to me through one of the most respected persons in the community look they want to meet us they want to discuss with us what are those things that went wrong in the outgoing administration that we want to see correct so for me even that effort alone shows that there may be hope going forward so if they do it genuinely we trust that it will be there's one thing about honesty when you are honest to anything our holy book says actions are judged according to intention if you have an honest intention about bringing peace an honest intention about uniting the people an honest intention about building a better society go bless it and prosper it and you will see for oppression from people so already there is effort by them to reach out we didn't just agree on the date they wanted but we agree on it right now I'm going to be available my colleague my team would be available let's talk about this together with them so since there's even that opening let's assume that something good is about to happen okay um should insurgency end today in kaduna what are some of the things that you feel kaduna will need to be able to bounce back is he anybody coming in to lead kaduna now one of his most important agenda should be uniting the people you don't fight insecurity with a divided team with a divided community with a divided society with a divided interest no yes you could have people who always think differently but there are certain things that unite the people I have said this and I want to repeat there was a time we suffered this kind of thing but we had a governor who saw something different and brought something different and begin to reach out to people and begin to work with people and begin to unite the people and begin to meet those needs of the people it wasn't about sharing money he was even an accountant whom you know will not just give out money everything it is about relationship it is about listening to the aliens of people it's about understanding the pens of the people it's about recognizing who those people they are uniqueness and what they think they can bring to the table and gradually things started stabilizing that we were able to achieve in nine years without violence without killing in kaduna state unfortunately the 2011 post election violence brought us back and since then certain developments have continued and we've not been able to go back but that means that we can go back what did we do that time that was right what were those things that we did brought about unity brought about understanding we can just go back and look at the time we are in do some little adjustment do some little amendment put some few things that will improve meet up the time now and we can move on probably we may even go beyond nine years now we may even go up to 15 we may even go up to 20 years I do believe that when we are able to unite the people build trust among the people encourage the people to speak I'm speaking let me be honest to you hear that even peace practitioner in this state end of just wasting funds because you go to your community talk to the community call on them to unite all of them to be peaceful but in the next one week or one month the action or trans from the government house can just destroy all that you have built and the people who start looking at themselves as enemy so even if you want to build peace you only build peace when the leaders who are honest in finding peace and the leaders are willing to see the people united but if a leader will go among some people and instigating them against one another thinking he's playing a smart game divide and rule then you will find this situation so bandit will say wait a minute we can do this they'll be divided they'll be fighting among themselves and nobody will even care to go for at once when the evil Reverend Joseph Hyap can chairman Cardinal state Reverend we do hope that Cardinal stops bleeding and indeed Nigeria subs bleeding because this insecurity this rising spate of insecurity has affected every sector of the nation's economy and we cannot afford to have this go on I shared the hope that you're having uh as the this administration winds down and you're hoping that the incoming administration of Obasani will give you peace and tranquility and prosperity in Cardinal state that's what we join you to hope for thank you so much for your time thank you too for having me and thank you for hoping like us so please let's pray together and then we walk to other chicken thank you the breakfast continues in a moment stay with us