 Now the Judicial Service Commission has been barred from evaluating candidates for the position of a Chief Justice and the Supreme Court Judge according to a High Court ruling. Now the Commission is fully dissatisfied with the ruling by the three judges delivered on Wednesday and intends to appeal to the Court of Appeal against the whole decision. By the JSC, challenging the decision will be had today by the Court of Appeal. However, it is emerging that there is a petition against the JSC appeal. Now the question is, what does this mean for the whole process? Today we are putting our discussion on youth and politics in regards to the JSC and much more in regards to the BBI. The JSC has been stopped. The question is, will they win the appeal today at the Court of Appeal? Are they going to win this case? Time will tell. Remember, there is a petition against this particular JSC appeal. What are the legal implications in regards to this issue? Thank you so much for keeping it Y in the morning. Thank you so much for keeping it Y254. My name is Ram Magukko. If you are just joining us, just in time for the next conversation of the day in regards to youth and politics. I'm joined by Nana Adda than Kiragu Muridi. He is the CEO of Vijana Mbele Foundation. It's a pleasure. As always, we value your feedback. The hashtag as always is why in the morning at Ram Magukko and at Y254 channel. Remember, we are also live on Facebook. Y254 is where you can find us. Give us your thoughts as we continue this conversation. I shall sample them up later on during this particular segment on youth and politics. Let's kick off this show. I'd like to start with the issue of the JSC before we head over to the BBI. If we are having this petition so far, Kiragu, what does this mean for the whole process? Will you delay the process? What are you looking forward to? Well, Ram, I must say that the Office of the Chief Justice was declared vacant by the acting Chief Justice that is Filomena Mulu. That means that it's open space for searching for a new substantive Chief Justice for Kenya. Now, these petitions that are coming into place, we can see a reflection that they are going to bring in a backlog or rather they are going to delay the process of bringing in a new Chief Justice in the Republic of Kenya. And as I said earlier, that the Office of the Chief Justice is brought in the Constitution under Article 161 of the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya. And we need a Chief Justice in the judiciary. It's a high moment that we need a new Chief Justice to bring in, to smoothen the process of the working out of the processes within the judiciary. Remember, it's all about administrating about the judicial facilitation, appointing new judges. And now this Chief Justice is going to come up, the Office of the Chief Justice is going to come up with a lot of things that are going to bring change in the judiciary at large. And remember, a Chief Justice is not just a man on the ground. We need a person of high moral character. We need a person of impartiality. Remember, a Chief Justice must have served as a, must have a 15 years experience having served as a judge of the High Court. And also must be a very experienced academic or jurist. And looking at the candidates we have in place, the likes of Senior Counsel Philip Mugo, Senior Counsel Fred Mkhatia. And I think it's high time we're bringing a Chief Justice so that we can fasten the process within the judiciary. And do you see this process coming up faster or slower? Based on these petitions that we're seeing so far, will it affect the process? Well, having petitions, you remember petitions must take time because petitions will be taken into consideration first by law. It's required by law that petitions must be taken into consideration before going out of the process. And within that time limit of their consideration, this will bring in a backlog or rather will slow the process of bringing in a Chief Justice in the judiciary. And I'm looking at the petition by the JSC. Do they have the ability of, you know, pulling through when winning this in court? Well, the Judicial Service Commission, remember it comprises of a lot of commissioners, those representing the public, those representing the Law Society of Kenya, those representing the Supreme Court, like the Acting Deputy Chief Justice, and also those representing the Public Service. And I think if these people come into one common ground, I think they're going to win this in the corridors of courts. I'm looking at the interviews of the judge for the Supreme Court. It was supposed to, they weren't supposed to comment today, the interview for the judge of the Supreme Court. Do you see any legal issues that may arise in regards to, you know, this particular search for the Supreme Court judge? I think from my view, from where I sit, I don't see any legal hurdles facing the the bringing in of the Supreme Court judge. And I think these are critical issues that must be taken into at most consideration, looking at the fact that the problems that are facing the judiciary at the moment. We don't have a Chief Justice at the moment. We need new faces within judiciary so that we can continue normal business. So the interviews that were done were meant to go through the candidates' academic qualifications. So many questions were asked. They were looking into professional experience, understanding of the law and character. You know, how was this whole process according to you? When you were following these interviews that were taking place for all the individuals that were interviewed, they ended on Friday. How was the whole process for you? What was your feel for the particular candidates that were interviewed? Well, Ram, from my view, I think the process was excellent and sufficient, putting into consideration that the Chief Justice, we must have a very legal experience. Putting into consideration that bringing in of a Chief Justice, this person must have high legal experience, high moral character, high integrity, high impartiality, a qualified and experienced jurist and academic, and also must also fit into the requirements of the Chapter 6 of the Constitution on Leadership and Integrity. And looking at the candidates that were in place last week, I think we can't lack a better, a good candidate and a good person for the job. And the candidates that were there, so many people are coming up to say that they are supporting this particular individual and the other. Any of you, who was your best pick from all the those that were interviewed for the position? Well, I must say, and we must also agree that there were controversies, and we also controversies were there. But there are people coming up with personal issues that might have a reason. And also on Twitter, I saw memes, you know, Kenya is a country of memes, you have a picture of a candidate, then there's a barrier along the eyes and you're saying this is the next Chief Justice, things like that. From my view, my best candidate for the job is Senior Counsel, friend Gatia, a very articulated experienced legal counsel. And I think he's good for the job. Why would you pick him? Based on what presidents? Would you, he's the best that he supersedes or he's better than the other people who have also worked in the judiciary for years? Well, Senior Counsel friend Gatia, there's something about him that he articulate issues with a lot of conscience. And to be specific, we saw that he brought changes to the University of Nairobi when he was some years ago. And I think looking at his legal background, his amount of high moral character, impartiality, and he's good for the job. All right. Based on this process, do you see any political undertones that were taking center stage in this whole search for this CJ? Of course, we saw some of the things taking center stage. You saw that the interviewees were being asked questions of independence, looking at the some of the legal counsels that were on the hot seat, were being asked questions of being interfered by the other arms of government. You remember, for a good example, like Senior Counsel Fred Gatia was represented Uhuru Kenyatta during the 2013 and 2017 cases, both in the ICC and also in the election petition. I remember he said that he should not be judged based on that particular case. Yeah. A lawyer can work for anyone. And that cannot work as a basis of interference when he is appointed as Chief Justice. I think he will work independently and do his job in a very conducive manner as expected by the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya. We have the issue of the petition that was put forward. And the petitioners included lawyers like Dan Sanomari, they sought to stop the process of this whole process on grounds that Professor Olive Mugenda is illegally presiding over the recruitment process when she has actually no powers to act as the J.S.C.C.A. person in the absence of the Chief Justice. How true could this be? Well, it might be true looking at law is very different and critical in its reasons. We see law and politics works differently. So and I'm not a lawyer, but in my view Olive Mugenda is acting and also representing the public in the Judicial Service Commission. Should the place, should it be chaired by the DCJ? Because I'm looking at what Dan Sanomari said and he said this, that it has not been apparently clear why the current interviews are being chaired by Professor Mugenda in open defiance and in subordination of the constitutional and statutory dictates that demand that the J.S.C.A. affairs should either be chaired by the CJ or the DCJ in his absence. So it should actually be the DCJ phenomena will instead of Olive Mugenda. Well, that makes sense because the Constitution enshrines that the Chief Justice or rather the acting Chief Justice or rather the Deputy Chief Justice should be the head of or rather should chair the Judicial Service Commission. But we're seeing that Olive Mugenda is chairing the commission. But I think that's quite a bit of a hit. But I think it's not that different from the facts considering also that Olive Mugenda is also a commissioner. And I think being a commissioner you have a responsibility to take action in the panel. And I think that's not a big deal to take into place. But the DCJ is there? Yeah. The DCJ also is asking questions in the panel. I don't see that much of a big issue to be in the limelight. All right. Michael, that you engage with us in this conversation. The hashtag is one in the morning. Give us your thoughts in regards to these issues. I want us to move to the next story on the BBI. The National Assembly of the Senate are expected to hold special meetings to debate among others the BBI initiative report this week. According to Ugunja Member of Parliament, he said this and I quote, let me say categorically the enemies of BBI and by extension the handshake have found convenient allies in the joint parliamentary committee of legal affairs. These elements are helping on derailing the BBI process and eventually scapelling the handshake. They are throwing spanners in the works in order to achieve this end. Your thoughts in regards to this? Well, I think and I've said this before that you can't solve political bad manners through constitution amendments. And what these main handlers of BBI are doing, they're trying to solve political bad manners through constitutional amendments. And you're saying that the BBI that thinks that BBI is prescribing are things that are yet to make constitutional sense to me. Looking at the demarcation of the 70 new constituencies, we are bringing in a very bloated parliament that is going to be big relative to our economy's GDP. And I think it's high time that the handlers of BBI come back to the table, goes to the people because BBI belongs to the people, constitutional amendments belong to the people so that we can change some of the things. Looking at the demarcation of the constituencies, that is the responsibility mandated by the IBC under Article 89 of the constitution. And I don't think it's such a big deal for a constitutional amendment to take up a responsibility of the IBC which in real sense should be independent by itself. So you feel like there is a displacement of rules here? It's a displacement of rules and I think BBI should be very different from interfering with the processes of an independent body like the IBC. But then how should we separate all these issues? And when does the IBC come considering that we are looking for commissioners as we talk? I think we have a very congested political calendar at the moment. We are looking at the BBI, we are looking at a referendum, we are looking at changing the IBC body and also these things are going to bring a backlog and maybe delay the process of the polls next year. I think it's high time that we look at our priorities. I think changing the constitution, the supreme law of the land shouldn't be a priority at the moment. We have the coronavirus pandemic. We should first look at the things that affect humanity at large. And I think in my view, if I was to be asked that we first carry out the next year polls, then the constitution amendments can come later. And how later should they come in your view? Maybe after we are done with elections, they can come later. Even after the day after election, they can come. We have this. As long as they just don't happen before the elections. Yeah, sure. But that is obviously not going to happen. It can happen if we look at the realities, if we elected true leaders who look at humanity at large, looking at Kenya, we have a very bloated debt from China. And the BBI process requires a large amount of money. If we carry out the BBI process, then next year we have polls, which are going to spend almost billions of money. I think that's not agreeable. We must look at the realities and the situation in our Kenya's economy. And I think we must bring this BBI after the 2022 elections. Well, there is a little debate on whether to reopen the document I have for amendment before subjecting it to a referendum. What are your thoughts on that? I think, well, that's agreeable. Looking at the parliament and the senate also have demanded to lobby for the reopening of the document before the amendment. I think if it is done, then we articulate our issues and issues of all people. We are good to go. Well, Ram, these things that are happening are really putting us to question the legality of this document called BBI. Looking at the problems, we saw that three counties had the wrong document. Only eleven counties had the original documents. These are issues that must be looked into place because we can't pass a document that is less of a legality, that is illegal, that is not for the people. So, we must bring a backyard by which this BBI is supported by all youth, women, people with disabilities, older men, students, children, everyone on board. Earlier on, we had a conversation with you and the issue of some claim that there are different documents that are circulating. Where could the confusion be when communities start saying that they have different versions of this particular document? Well, Ram, I can agree on that because also I've never gotten an original document of the BBI, the physical one, because after the unveiling of the BBI, the president ordered that the BBI document will be brought to the people. And if you ask me, I've gone to the ground, people don't have that BBI document. So, I can support the controversy that the document is illegal and they are working on two different documents. And we are seeing that they are starting blame games now, saying that there is interference from the DP Rutgers camp on the processes of the BBI. And I think we should not involve the deputy president in the process of the BBI. Remember, the BBI brothers are his Excellency Uhuru Kenyatta and also his Excellency, former Prime Minister, Railroad Dinger. So, if there is a problem regarding BBI, I think they should solve the problem between themselves instead of bringing into place our blame games. I'm looking at the issues of the joint committee of the Senate and the National Assembly, which concerns that the document has, you know, they were saying that they have broken the stalemate in regards to this and because this stalemate was scuttling the BBI process, the biggest headache at the moment is the executive of the referendum, which, you know, which is a timeline that is very tight. Do you feel like this timeline is possible for us to meet it? It's very impossible to meet this timeline in July. It's very impossible. Remember, these constitutional amendments require a lot of facilitation, both administrative, both monetary and also individual participation. And I think this timeline is too small to fit and bring a constitutional amendment come July, which is a few months to come. Well, I'm looking at Lugare, a member of Parliament, Ayub Sabula's comment in regards to this. He says that he wants the IBC, the BBI secretariat, the defunct BBI steering committee, the government press, the government's printer, and the speakers of a factory assemblies to be summoned by the joint team to establish the origin of this confusion. Is this a possible roadmap towards getting a solution? Well, I think that's a lost roadmap, putting into consideration that the BBI was originally brought into place by the BBI secretariat. Then it was given to the IBC. It's not the IBC who came for the BBI. It's the secretariat that gave the BBI to the IBC. So putting on blame games of together its IBC or other parties that are bringing into this confusion of the BBI, I think it's not a good way to go. And these promoters of BBI should really ask themselves, is there a problem within them instead of bringing in shame in the limelight of a precious document, a purported precious document that was unveiled last year? Right, right. I want us to bring this conversation to a close there. Let me just read a few comments on our social media platform. Remember, we have many who are watching us from different parts of the country and beyond. Let me head over to, I'm seeing this is Roslyn and someone who's watching from Kisumu. Thank you very much, Ros for that. Watching the show, loving it. I'm seeing this is Khaled and some very interesting conversation there, enjoying the show, watching you from Kisarian. All right. This is Ayan and some are enjoying the show, loving it. Thank you so much for bringing it is from bringing BBI into this conversation. It is an interesting conversation. What we need to do as a nation is to support ideas that bring change into the country, not to bring politics in everything and bring confusion, because Kenyans right now are in need of solutions and not more problems. Interesting comment there. You agree with that, right? Agree with that. All right. My internet is kind of slow today, but thank you so much everyone for the final time tuning. Let me give you a final, I tend to say a final one, you guys, with this. The whole issue of the GSE and the BBI at large, just in summary, what should be our take home from you? Well, I think from my view, the GSE last week carried out very excellent and sufficient interviews for the candidates who applied for the job. I think that I have high hopes that we are going to have a new chief justice that will change the face of the judiciary, will solve the perennial problem of lack of independence within the judiciary. Also on the parts of the BBI, BBI changing the supreme law of the land shouldn't be a priority of the moment in Kenya right now. We are facing so many challenges in Kenya. We have the coronavirus, we have a poor economy, and I think if faster, we must build the economy, do away with the coronavirus, then bring in constitutional amendments. And I repeat again, you can't solve political bad manners through constitutional amendments. And we must rethink, bring all the people to the table, represent their interests. My internet is back, I want to read a few more so that you can have your feedback on this. Kijanawa, Kibaki, and I said I'm watching from Lunatown, but now get this. Deno Sparky saying, hello guys, BBI can't stop this due, BBI can't stop this due to, this is because there is no opposition in the government, all opposition have joined the government in Kenya and Oumia. Well, I think it's a good take for Deno because at the moment we lack the opposition in government and a true democracy doesn't work properly without the opposition. So the only people we are seeing in the opposition, we are seeing civil society, we have the Linda Katiba initiative by Mother Karua and Dr. Devin D. So I think at the moment, we are in a weak democracy that works without proper opposition. And you remember opposition works and is in place so that it can be able to ensure that government works efficiently. All right. Thank you so much, my brother for joining and finding time to have this conversation with me. I was with Kirago Muradi, who is the CEO of Fijana Belle Foundation. Thank you, sir. As always, we value your feedback. Thank you so much to everyone who has been participating with us, especially on our online platforms. I can't read all of your feedback, but we appreciate your presence. That brings us to the end of this particular conversation on youth and politics. Coming up next, I shall be joined by Dr. Lawrence Ofuja. The conversation that is coming up is an issue of creative and critical thinking. How deep does it go? Don't go too far. We'll be back in a bit. This is why in the morning.