 Welcome to ThinkDeck, I'm Jay Fidel, and we're talking about the military in Hawaii today. And we have our Commander Scott Fritzel, Neat Cell, I'm sorry, from the United States, United States Navy, and Lieutenant Commander Simon Dent, am I right, from the Australian Navy. Welcome you guys. Thanks, Jay, we're happy to be here. Good morning, Jay. So we're talking about RIMPAC, title of our show is, it's about RIMPAC, it's a RIMPAC here in the Pacific, here in Hawaii right now, it's happening. Am I right gentlemen, it's happening right now? It is ongoing right now. We're a little over a week into the exercise and we've got a little less than a week to go, but ships are at sea right now, operating as we speak. Yeah, and so there are, let me tell you what I read. There were 22 ships involved from something like nine countries, including of course the US with the largest contingent, I would say seven or eight ships. Australia has four ships and various other countries have representative ships, there are 5,000 men and women involved in this operation. And what I like most is RIMPAC as an acronym. You know, you think it was a sophisticated military anachronism, it's not an anachronism that requires any long discussion. RIM stands for RIM, R-I-M, RIM is RIM, and PAC stands for Pacific, RIM of the Pacific. There you go. I thought that was really fun. So, you know, this has been going on for a long time. So Scott, can you tell us, you know, what it is, why it is, where it is, and who generally participates? Sure, so as you mentioned, it's been going on for a while, first RIM for the next 50 years since we started, and we extend invitations to our partners across the Pacific who share our values and were interested in coming together to build trust, to build capability, and to be ready to respond. We know there will be a crisis in the future. That could be a natural disaster, that could be a man-made, but we know a crisis will occur and bringing us together every two years here in Hawaii and in Southern California to develop that trust relationships means we are all better positioned to respond when the crisis eventually occurs. Yeah, so this is a study, not necessarily in weapons systems or in equipment as much as it is in collaboration with human beings. Am I right? I think that's a fair statement. Certainly we will flex our combat systems and the ships and submarines and aircraft, but you know, we're building trust and we're building the ability to operate together. We often talk about the challenges even for the countries where English is the primary language. We work through those challenges of our unique military terminologies and lexicons to make sure that we understand now when we train in a calm time that we're ready when we go into the crisis time. Yeah, that's really good. Where are you? Are you South or Southwest of Oahu? So we're operating around the Hawaiian Islands. A large portion of the action happens to the South, but we're also engaging in use of the Pacific Missile Range Facility to the Northwest of Kauai. And then we operate within our training ranges around the Hawaiian Islands. So I take it this is about exercises and you have a fleet out there all lined up in the ocean say four or five columns of ships, each one in this case of 22. So you figure if it's four columns, each one is roughly five ships in a row. What do they do? What is an exercise for the purpose of impact? Yeah, so we stepped through a lot of different types of events. We do what we would call maneuvering interoperability that's close together, talking to each other on the radio, making sure that we can communicate smoothly. And then we move into a large number of serialized events. We do air defense, surface warfare, air defense, anti-submarine warfare. And then we're also doing gunnery and live missile and torpedo firings. So we're getting across a large spectrum of military activity that allows each nation to participate and achieve their training objectives here in the operating area. Sure, I expect some are stronger, some are not so strong, but they all benefit by the collaboration and being involved in the joint experience of heroin. Oh, absolutely. And one of the tenants of RIMPAC is inclusivity. We want our partner nations to come here at whatever level of proficiency and platform they're able to bring because we all leave better if we operate together, if we cooperate and continue to develop those relationships. Yeah, I think this is an example of diplomacy, isn't it? Military diplomacy, that is not a contradiction in terms. That is the way it's been for the past several decades and you're actually doing diplomacy with other countries, right? Sure, I think that's a fair characterization. We're building relationships, not just between the navies, but between the people. And by extension, I think that involves building relationships between the nations. Yeah, sort of like APCSSC, Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies, which Dan and O.A. organized way back a couple, three decades ago. It's all about collaboration and it's all about building relationships. So, I think this is a great thing for the United States to do and I wanna go on record to say that I'm available to be a citizen observer anytime you say, I'll go there and I'll follow all the rules and just sort of suck up the whole experience. So, Simon, Scott said that they speak English while they have these exercises. Do you have any problem understanding the English? There's in the exercise control, so where we are, they really turn around and say, can you interpret the Australian English for me? And do they understand you? I have learnt to adjust. I've been fortunate, I've been here since December 18. And we still have, I'm sorry, what does that mean? Only joking, right? So anyway, tell me about Australia's role in this and how it feels about, how important is this for Australia, which actually has four ships here as part of RIMPAC, what does it mean to Australia, what does it mean to Australian Navy? It is very important. It was, and the overall, so RIMPAC allows the like-minded navies to strengthen relationships and within Australia, it strengthens those relationships. There are a few countries from the Southeast Asian area and those are coming together and making capable military partners and we operate in that area throughout the year in a number of exercises. And over in Hawaii, it's one of the best exercise areas in the world to be able to do this. Why is that? It just, it allows for the Pacific Missile Range Facility where we can fire our long range weapons. HMS Hobart and the Upgraded Anzac class ships have fired weapons this RIMPAC. It's just an opportunity that we don't necessarily have back in Australia and it's just a world-class facility. How do the Australians feel about the United States in general these days? I mean, are they, for example, are they generally aware of RIMPAC? Are they generally engaged, if you will, with the United States? Yeah, I believe they are. RIMPAC is one of the largest exercises that the Australian Navy participates in. All forces participate, the Air Force and the Army, both participate in RIMPAC, but they have other larger exercises, the RAF and the Army, that they participate in. But the overall public have an awareness of what RIMPAC is, yes. So, Simon, what is your role vis-à-vis the Australian contingent to the exercise? So my role is separate to the Australian contingent within RIMPAC. I'm the RIMPAC 2020 Coordinator and my role is to execute the two-year planning cycle. I coordinate up to 30 nations, multiple U.S. commands and units, and 29 working group leads over the seven planning events up through and during execution, which occupies my time. A Royal Australian Navy officer has held this role at the United States Fleet in San Diego for over 20 years. It's a U.S. specifically hosted by a nation planned and executed, and I feel very privileged to be serving this role. Yeah, different years have had different leaders. In other words, one country will be a leader. Who's the leader this year? Is Australia the leader? Is the U.S. the leader? Who is the leader? So the overall either the combined commander task force is always commander U.S. Third Fleet. So subordinate commanders or component commanders do change throughout RIMPACs, but the overall commander for RIMPAC will always be U.S. Third Fleet. So Scott is the senior planner for RIMPAC for the United States Navy. Am I right about that, Scott? Yes, senior planner. And then I also do the specifics of the surface ship planning. So you guys work together. I mean, I assume you haven't just met now. Do you work together to see each other in connection with RIMPAC? We do, so Simon and I work in the same office. We traveled to Hawaii on the same flight. We did our 14-day quarantine in rooms next to each other. And when we work day-to-day during RIMPAC execution, our desks are about eight and a half feet apart. So socially distanced, but we collaborate closely. And then back home, we're also neighbors. We live about five minutes away from each other. Oh, is that right? So, you know, Scott, you're a commander, and that's the United States Navy commander. And Simon is a lieutenant commander in the Australian Navy. And I don't know whether those are parallel or whether they serve the same hierarchy as they would if you were both in the same Navy. But I just want to know is when you walked down the street together, who was on the right and who was on the left? I think it's often confused because neither one of us knows which side of the road is the right place. I think it was on the sidewalk, too. It's a real problem when you deal with somebody from the Commonwealth, hey. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, and in the UK, it gets very complicated. Absolutely. Thank you for that answer. So, you know, I understand that the 22 ships that are involved in this operation are all operating at sea. The exercise is entirely at sea, as opposed to years past, every two years this happens. And for the most part of the years past, it was both on sea and land. So, why is it only at sea this year, Scott? I think, you know, in the COVID-19 environment, we looked at what options were available and skipping RIMPAC simply was not a viable option. This is too important to our partners. This is too important to the Pacific as a whole. And so we wanted to execute. So, we looked at how we could do that safely to protect the cruise, also to protect the people of Hawaii. Yes, fair enough. The only way we felt we could do that effectively was to go and execute at sea. And I take it that the men and women on the ships, at least the Navy ships, are all staying on the ships, 500 and 5300 and change of them. They don't come ashore or do they come ashore for liberty after the exercise? I know, so they're on the ships. The only piece of Hawaiian territory they will have seen in person would be the pier immediately adjacent to their ship. Other than that, they're on the ships and they get to look at the beautiful scenery, but I don't get to partake in any hospitality. That is really tragic, especially for those who haven't been here until now. So that applies to all the ships of all the, whatever it is, seven or eight countries that are involved, am I right? That's correct. And that includes Australia. So that the Australian men and women, you have women in the Navy, right? Australia, you're not just, you know, you're both. That's the commander task force. So one of the commanders there is task force one, Captain Philippa Hay. Good. So let me go to some questions that came in. First question is with the tougher trade and human rights policy by the current American administration, aimed at the People's Republic of China. Excuse me, how will this change in American policy? Change the level of cooperation of the PRC in RIMPAC this year. That's an easy one, but Scott, why don't you take that? So there's really no change because China is not a participant in RIMPAC 2020. China's continued behavior in the international realm is incompatible with the values of RIMPAC. So they were not invited. That's a senior civilian leadership decision, but the values they share aren't what's important in RIMPAC. So they were not invited and they do not have a participating role. Yeah, my understanding is it was 2016 or 2018, they were invited and then uninvited because of some shenanigans they were doing in the South China Sea. And since then they haven't been invited back because the shenanigans haven't stopped. So it's only fair. And that's only part of the shenanigans because they're not only doing their thing in the South China Sea, they're doing their thing in Hong Kong and they're making moves on Taiwan and they have human rights problems that are greater today than they were in any period over the past 10 or 20 years. You know, the Chinese activities in South China Sea, those activities affect Australia, don't they? They do, they do. There are a number of trade routes that go through there and any of those activities that either prevent or disrupt any of those trade routes. It's a concern for all global nations, Australia being one of them and we have a strong trade with China. So it is a concern for Australia at this time. Yeah, understood. Second question that was submitted, will Taiwan ever be invited to RIMPAC? It isn't in RIMPAC this year. I don't know if it was invited before, but would it ever be invited? I guess that's yours, Scott. So Taiwan is not participating this year. They were not invited. They have not been a participant in the past. And again, that's a senior civilian leadership decision. But I would tell you that from a practical standpoint, to participate in RIMPAC, a country first needs to participate as an observer, send personnel to watch the exercise, see how business is done. And then prepare their forces for the two-year planning cycle. And Taiwan has also not done that yet. So to date, it remains a civilian leadership decision to be made, but we're not actively involved in the integration of Taiwan right now. Yeah. It must be interesting to live in Asia now, for that matter, in Australia, New Zealand. And New Zealand is represented. They have one ship involved in RIMPAC, right? So I just wondered, don't you think, Simon, that the tone, the atmosphere of geopolitics in, you've been in the Navy for a while, has changed over the past, say, 10 years. And right now there are, what do we call it, threats and tensions that didn't exist 10 years ago, may I write? And I think RIMPAC is a great opportunity for the partner nations to come together. And as Commander Nitzel said earlier, it's these exercises and specifically the events that happen during these exercises that allow the partner nations to communicate together, work together and do those interoperability exercises that allow the partner nations to be able to come together in a time of crisis, having already operated together. Yeah, very important. Very important to the United States, very important to you, very important to the other members of RIMPAC. Let me reintroduce our guests, Lieutenant Commander Simon Dent from the Australian Navy, Commander Scott Nitzel from the United States Navy. So the third question that was submitted is this, describe the changing participation of New Zealand in RIMPAC since they pulled out of the ANZIS treaty. New Zealand has slowly increased its RIMPAC participation. And indeed they're involved in the RIMPAC this year. There have been, and I'm adding this myself, they have been issues about groups in New Zealand who oppose nuclear weapons. But what do you see for the future of that? Let me ask you, Simon, simply because you're geographically closer. There is an interest with New Zealand and I was speaking with their lead planner and they have an interest in participating in RIMPAC 2022 as well. It again, as a Southwest Pacific nation that like Australia, we have an interest of what happens in the Southwest Pacific and operating with Australia and some of those other nations is a perfect opportunity for that. I will hand to Commander Nitzel specifically because that is a US New Zealand issue that when they didn't participate in RIMPAC many years ago. Yeah, Scott, would you add anything to that? I'll be in connection with the US view of it. I would just say that we're certainly happy to have New Zealand here participating with their ship, the Manawanui, one of their newest ships in the fleet here. And actually under the command of a friend I made during RIMPAC 2018 so that the relationship building continues. And also New Zealand was our hosts for the last in-person conference before the COVID crisis moved us to virtual planning. So they were fantastic hosts and brought the key leadership for RIMPAC down to Wellington in February where we had our last in-person planning meeting. Yeah, Wellington's beautiful place. On the other hand, so is Sydney, but my favorite place is Melbourne. We were there, my wife and I were there a couple of years ago and we went to Tasmania too, by the way, we love Tasmania. So, I'm just wondering just about your careers gentlemen, just can I take a digression for a moment? Scott, why did you get into the Navy and how has your career been in the years since? So it's interesting. I didn't really intend to join the military. I went to a first year of college and then I got in contact with a Navy recruiter and ended up in the ROTC program in Missouri. And I've been in almost 20 years now, been a surface warfare officer driving ships the whole time. And I've had a fantastic career. I've been stationed here in Hawaii for five years, spent some time in Monterey, California, Newport, Rhode Island, San Diego, done five deployments and been fortunate enough to command a ship. So I would say the Navy has probably treated me better than I deserve. A very good career so far. It sounds terrific. You're gonna stay in longer than 20 then. I'll be in for a while longer. I am starting to think about when retirement's gonna come because obviously there's life after the Navy but for now I'm very happy with what I do and I love the people I work with and what I get to get to do and see every day. So is there any chance you would retire? I mean, as and when you do in Hawaii. I mean, Hawaii has a huge Navy retirement community, retired officer community. And I wonder if you've ever entertained that thought. Well, it's certainly a thought. My wife loves to scuba dive. So I don't think there would be any objections from her to a residence here in Hawaii. Okay. Yeah, then you can come back on the show over and over again, you know. So Simon, by the way, I have family in Britain in the UK but the same name dent, we might be related. Ooh, how do you like that? But let me ask you about your career in the Australian Navy. What's it been like? Why'd you go in? How has it been? So I left, when I left school, I started an apprenticeship and I went through that and then I just wanted to change in life. And I joined the Navy just past 17 years now and I've had a fantastic career. The Navy's taken me all around Australia and I've deployed to the Middle East three times. And obviously I went to the U.S. for this two year posting. I've had command of patrol boat in Australia. So it has been moving all around the world, seeing fantastic places and visiting. Just builds relationships and friendships that you keep forever. Yeah, that's great. How has the Australian Navy, I mean, you've dealt with the likes of Scott Nitzel so you can answer this. How does the Australian Navy differ from the American Navy? There must be cultural differences. Can you talk about that for a minute? Yeah, I can. And we talk about this at work regularly. It's, we have similar issues, whether they be communications or ships at sea, any of those things just on a much smaller scale. U.S. Navy obviously has responsibilities all around the world on a much larger scale than we do, but they have personnel issues just as we do. It's just on a little bit smaller scale for the Australians. Yeah, Scott, you agree with him and do you agree with those who feel that the American naval officer is in general better looking? I think comparing myself and Simon in terms of that, I definitely have more hair. So whether that's a product of stress or not, we'll leave that up to the viewers judgment. Okay, this is the part where we take a poll of our viewers and see what they say. Okay, back to the main theme here though. Have you guys been out to sea on the RIMPAC? Have you flown out to the ships while they were involved in the exercises? Have you stood on the bridge and observed the moves? Scott? I wish I could say that we had, unfortunately with our COVID mitigation protocols, we're not going out to the ships. And I'm a little disappointed as a senior ship driver, everybody's out there shooting missiles, shooting guns, driving ships close together and flying helicopters. And I wish I was out there because that's really what we like to do as professionals and didn't get the opportunity this time. Well, as you said before, there's really nothing like being a ship driver. There's nothing like having a command. One of our hosts here on Think Tech who did a show just yesterday was in the Canadian Navy for a career. And that's very similar to the Australian and New Zealand Navy in some ways. And he was a commander of a number of submarines in the Canadian Navy. I didn't think they had submarines, but okay. Anyway, the point is that once it gets into your blood, you're different. Do you find that, Scott? Once you have a commander, you're different. I think that's absolutely true. It is a unique experience, both in the United States Navy and any Navy, but also in the human existence to be responsible for so many people, so much material, so much monetary value, but then also the opportunity to really influence the outcomes. When you're the commander, you can say what's going to happen and you can get to see the improvement that those decisions make in your crew and in your ship. But I'd like to talk about the good old days in the 18th century, those were the good old days. When you got your orders in a sealed envelope with wax on it and you had to go out to sea before you opened the envelope and then you get out to sea and you had your instructions about where he's supposed to go and what he can do in your ship's mission. And there was no wireless. There was no way to communicate with the Admiralty. And so the result was you were completely in charge. Now you're in constant, constant connection with the command ashore. And they know what you're doing and they can change your direction, change your speed, change. They are in charge of you all the time. It's not the same thing. You can quote me on this. It's not the same thing as it was in the 18th century. Oh, for the good old days. Thoughts about that? I think that's absolutely true. You know, we have a level of communication and connectivity right now that is evolving every day. And I think COs still are empowered to make decisions. And I still think that good captains make a big difference, but they certainly have a connection to their senior officers that they didn't have, not even a centuries ago, not even 25 years ago. So there's definitely some reach back there. You know, one thing that happened is very interesting in one of those skirmishes in Israel, they found that the troops, the Israeli Defense Force was on social media. And they were sending, you know, social media, Facebook messages to their families and boyfriends, girlfriends, what have you. And see the Israeli command was very upset about that because that would give away position and the like. So they told them, stop that, don't do that again, finish. And so they don't do that anymore. And I wonder on these ships, whether the crew on these ships, the men and women who man these ships, let's see, that doesn't sound right, the men and women who man these ships. Do they have access to the internet? Can they send messages back to, you know, Sydney, for example, to their families? Or is that against the rules? Simon? No, they definitely do. They have email is something that is available to them all the time. And then they have an internet cafe where they can go and log on, depending on where they are and what the operational security is at the time. I can log on to Facebook or it just depends on the operational security requirements at that time, but they can easily message your email. And depending on where you are, you can make telephone calls home as well. So it depends on the security issues at the moment, the situation, so to speak, at the moment, yeah. And what about the food? You know, Scott, they say the food is better on submarines, but it isn't so bad on the surface ships. Is this true? My experience has been the food is pretty good. You know, we got a lot of sailors who work hard to keep people fed. No one maybe has more impact on morale than the person who serves up the meals that you're gonna eat three times every day. You know, but you don't, the Navy does not have, the American Navy does not have the meat pies though. No. What about the Australian Navy to have the meat pies? Yes, we certainly do. I just, so Viva la Diferon, say. Okay, well, I wanna get your thoughts on what people should think. I mean, why should a man on the street here who I care about RIMPAC? Why should he care about the collaboration between the United States and Australia and all the other seven or eight countries involved in RIMPAC? Doesn't affect them, does it? What would you say to them? Can you leave a message for them, Scott, and tell them why they should care about this? Absolutely, I think, you know, if we look at the Indo-Pacific region and this great ocean and the large amount of commerce that travels on it, everyone, even the man on the street benefits from that remaining a free and open commons that is used in accordance with international norms. And RIMPAC, especially maybe in RIMPAC 2020 where there is a global crisis going on and like-minded navies are still coming together to pursue our common values, I should really reassure people that even in a time of crisis, we can help to ensure a free and open Indo-Pacific and that is good for everyone, not just the man on the street in Honolulu, but the man or woman on the street in any of the nine partner nations that are here. It makes everyone's life better and helps all of our economies. Wow, so Simon, I was gonna ask you what you would add to that, but that was, you know, Scott really phrased that pretty well. I don't know what you could add or I could add to that, but how do you see that from the Australian point of view? Why is it, what do you want the person on the street here in Honolulu to think about the participation of Australia and the other non-U.S. nations in RIMPAC? Well, I think 2020 is a little bit different. It's a little bit smaller, but we still had a safe and successful exercise. And I think the messages that we are trying to send each and every RIMPAC and specifically this one is to, we are looking after the people of Hawaii and that's why we didn't go ashore. And that's one of the key messages that we wish to pass throughout every series of RIMPAC, every event that we do here. It is a beautiful part of the world that's got environmentally sensitive areas. So we visit the state of Hawaii and we look after it and we wanna pass that message and ensure that people understand that RIMPAC is here. Typically, they put a lot of money into the economy when people are staying down in Waikiki and enjoying the hospitality of everyone here. And that's just unfortunate that's something that we haven't been able to do this year. But that's other than what Kamana Neksel has said, that's about the only thing I could add to that, to his comment. Well done. Simon Dent, Senator Commander in the Australian Navy, who we can call you Mr, am I right? That's the same as in the US Navy, right? It's Mr, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. And Scott Nitzel, and we can call you Commander in the United States Navy. Thank you so much, Scott. Thank you, Simon. It's great to have you guys on the show. And I say- Well, thanks, Jay. We really enjoyed it. Aloha, both. Enjoy the exercise, enjoy the trip.