 Hi, welcome to this show called City Sense and today we are in South Africa in the city of Johannesburg like you can see at the back and the city in itself speaks volumes and volumes of the struggles against the apartheid system, the museums and what not. And we've come here, we've assembled for International People's Assembly for re-invigorating ourselves on the structures of future of socialism, what could be the socialist structures. And these socialist structures cannot bypass where 55% more than that in fact of humanity resides and that's the urban world. When we talk about city sense, it's not just cities in the global south but across the world and today we have with us the mayor of a city called Rikuleta which is in the north of Santiago, Comet Daniel, thank you for joining us, Comet Daniel has come all the way from Latin America from Chile who in himself is an institution, I mean who fought the struggle and now is leading the cities. What is it that we want to discuss, you know we've seen across the globe that cities are becoming unsustainable, they're becoming centers of exclusion, centers of capital accumulation, why is it that the cities which should have been centers of participatory democracy, centers of democratic governance are slowly and slowly turning out to be the most exclusionary spaces in the globe. In such a scenario we have some spaces, we have some interventions where like the intervention that we were talking with Comet Daniel, how cities can be more participatory, how they can be inclusive, how they can be made livable for the people. Thank you so much for joining us and the first question I mean it's lovely, it was really lovely to hear you in the Congress as well. But what I intend to know you know most of our viewers are from India, from South Asia, generally there's a trend that we found in South Asia, you know whatever's trying to build up, cities have become centers of capital accumulation, number one, at the same time also for more techno-centric solutions on which further robs the people from whatever wealth and assets they have in the pocket. How are you viewing and what is the size of your city and you know you've come from a movement, a movement that has been for a pretty long protracted struggle, how are you viewing it in the larger context and then coming specifically to your city you know in Santiago and what are the challenges that you face here? We have made a political project based on the issues that were parted, the communist party in Chile tried to put into all the society, the objective of our city is to make the life of the people more cheaper, more easier and more not complex. So how do you do that? The first thing is trying to make the people free of the dictator of salary. Oh that's interesting. Because the most of the people have a salary that don't cover all the needs in a month. So if you can make all the things more needed for the people, more cheaper than in the market, no, you can make an upgrade of the salary but no directly and indirectly. What are some of the... So how do you do that? We in Chile have the medicine more expensive than all the world. The same medicine than in Europe used to cost $1, in Chile used to cost $6 or $10. It's really a boost. So we in our city put a local pharmacy. This doesn't exist in all of our history in Chile. And in this pharmacy you can find all the medicines at 20% of the cost in the market. The second example more stronger was the glasses for the people. Near for 60% need glasses in our country. And a glass is, again, the glasses more expensive all over the world. You can need a glass, a simple glass to me open astigmatism. Maybe about $100. In the popular optical you can find the same in $15. We make the same with the books because for us it's so important the cultural access and the cultural participation. With the culture participation. It's three different things, access and participation in the culture. So we make a deal with all the editorials to give us the price that they give the same price to all the libraries, the bookstores. And we pay in all the examples all the operational costs. And we translate the cost of buying to cost of selling. So we can make an effort like municipality like local government to make the books 60% cheaper than in the market. Then we make the same with the housing. We began to build. What is the population of the city? 220,000. And we began to build apartments for the municipality. And we rent the apartments. That's interesting for the workers. But we rent with the top, with the limit in the cost. And the limit in the cost that you have to pay is 20% of your salary. This is very interesting. So every month one has to pay 21% of the salary? Every month. For how long? You can decide. That's interesting. But it's more interesting because today a rent of an apartment in Chile can take the 75% of the salary. So the rest of your salary don't let you give your family food, education to anything, sports, anything. So this is very interesting because in the bad times, the 20% of your salary, when your salary becomes zero, is zero. And what is the size of the apartment? For us, the right is not to have a house. To have a house like property. It's important. We are building a lot of houses to give to the people like property. But not all can succeed. So for us, the correct right is to live in dignity. That's I think more important. Not just as an asset, but also as a dignity. What is the size of the apartment that you are constructing and you're handing it over to the workers? In Chile, the market gives to the families of four persons, a medium family, near 50 square meters. But in our case, we are giving 60. Bad 16 in the house. But out of the house in the apartment, you have in each floor a space about 200 square meters to the children. Because we understand that the parents that live over the third floor don't let the children go to play. That's interesting. So every floor has every floor. That's an interesting design. The design is a gender design. We used to make a design not to the adults only. We make a design to the adults, to the young people, to the old people. And to the women and to the men. It's a gender design made with the people. It's the same to the apartment that we built to give in property. But all the form to make the decisions in our city is with the people, nothing without the people. That's interesting. I've just got curious when you were... There's a lot of other examples like in the schools, we have a director. This director is formed by the representative of the owner, that is the local government. Two representatives of the parents, two representatives of the students, two representatives of the teachers, and two representatives of the assistants of education. And this has a director who takes all the decisions into the school. And the same we made it in the health centers. So the people, we understand the participation like in continual exercises and continual exercises. I mean, you just made me curious and there are two more questions that I have. And since I know that you are an architect, also a sociologist. So, you know, because I have also been... My special is urban development. Is urban development. Yeah. It's very little important. I am a specialist in quality management. That's great. So, and I have also run a city for five years and I was serving the city for five years. I know the intricacies of urban governance, urban development. And I know how challenging this is. And given the geopolitical situation, what is the condition of utilities? You know, you've spoken about health, you've spoken about education. And I'm really amazed to know, I mean, people in my country or in South Asia do not even know that we can have such a participatory form of school management. You know, where you have local government, where you have student representatives taking decisions. It's very interesting. But what about other utilities? Take, for example, mobility because water or power. I mean, is it under the... In my city, those kind of things is out of the responsibility of the city. Okay. Is the regional... The provincial. We are responsible for education, health, order and clinic. Sanitation. Sanitation. And we are a responsibility of culture and sports. Okay. And you can go a little more forward, that your responsibility. But with a lot of taking care of the loyal, the leg-out forms. We have a very strong work in innovation and promoting the economic development of the society. Okay. So that... I mean, what is this innovative approach that you have? What is this innovation or innovative approach? How do you do that? I have told you. Yeah. Okay. Part of that. Or innovation in political. Okay. But still we have... When we came to the city, the parking, when we came to the city... So that's a mobility. I was more curious to know because mobility is really hunting the cities badly. The parking was a privatization in all the commercial centers. Daniel, just one question before you just elaborate this. How many cars do you have in your city? How many? Cars. The private cars. Because that will give me an idea. I know, I know the number of cars in my city. May I? 100,000. Oh my God, that's huge. That's almost 50% of your population. Yeah. How do you run a city in such a situation? No. Yeah. Until today there are more phones and cars than people. Oh my God. Okay. Because we have a bring the Chinese cars. Okay. The Chinese cars make the cars cheaper. Okay. 50 years ago the cars were a luxury object. Okay. Today... But don't you think this has to be altered? Cars is not the solution. I mean, you know, running a city, it's public transport which is the solution. Yeah. Is this... No. No. The public transportation is a part of the solution. Yeah. What's more important of the solution is the 15-minute cities. Okay. We understand the intelligent cities. Not like the cities in which the technology can help you to not see the problems of the city. The intelligent city to us is the kind of city that can resolve the most important needed of the people at a walking time of 15 minutes. So, you have to know in the non-liberal city the service are concentrated where the demand is. Yeah. So, in the poor neighborhoods, you don't have anything. In my city, in our city, we used to have optical stores. Never. 220,000 population don't have pharmacies, don't have opticals, don't have a library, don't have a bookstore in a city of 220,000 people. So, all us people, to get the things, have to go far and to back. When you come and build this kind of service into the city, you are avoiding a lot of troubles. So, my point is Daniel, if you have more cars, what is an average time for the commute for a worker? The average, because in India, I can tell you, in India, the average distance that a worker travels is not more than 7 to 8 kilometers, which means the average worker doesn't require cars. I mean, that's why we are focusing on public transport. I understand. Yeah. And I agree with you. The problem is to interview the neighborhoods to make the life more simple. If you have to go far, to work, you cannot change. Maybe to make some sports, especially, you can change it, because the possibility is in the upper level of government. But we can change to more or less impact the trips into the city, to the people. And we can change the time of travel to work. We can change the time of travel to a lot of things, but to buy medicines, to buy glasses, to buy books, to make sports, to have culture in your neighborhoods. In your immediate neighborhoods, we can do it. Also, we make the city more intelligent, because we began to live without depending on trips. So what are the major modes of transport? You have buses, you have private cars. It's from the provincial government. Oh, okay. This is not your problem. In our country, all the public transportation is private. Oh my God, okay. But the order of that is for the local government, the regulation. But all what you have to know, until we have the country that it's more pure neoliberalism all over the world. I'm aware of it. So near that this country. Yeah, I'm happy that some interventions are. The last question, and that pertains to, I mean, I got some glimpse from your participatory mode in the schools. I mean, how do you make it more comprehensive, more participatory where every member of the society gets, like we in India, we have one constitutional amendment. That doesn't work, by the way, where all the decisions must be bottom top in the city government. So how do you structure that? I mean, is it a provincial job or is it a city government job? I've already got a glimpse. Party job. Oh, it's a party job. It's not the government job. So how do you make it? Because Lenin says, Lenin said that the communists never have to run before a vote. No? Yeah. You must work every day to make better the life of the people who is around you. If you make that all the days in your life, will come the vote, will come belief, will come trust, will come everything to you. Now, that is the more important things that the left side have forgotten, have forgotten all over the world. Because today, the left side, some part of the left side are divided and they have became to the governments all over the world in the third of the years and they have changed nothing. But how do you structure that? My point is how do you structure, say for example, you're running a city government. How do you structure the whole process? It's just the party or is it the structure of the governance? No, it's the party. Because 20 years ago in our city, the Communist Party used to have 2% of the votes. We made a strategic plan in 2001 and the name of this strategic plan was Recoleta 2012. What does that mean? That in 2012, we are going to win the government local of the city. That's interesting. From 2001, 2%, we get 11% in 2004, the 18.5% in 2008 and the 41% in 2012. After that, we renew the trust with the people in 2016 with 54%. And in the last election, and it's my last election because I can't go for another period, we reach 65%. Oh, that's amazing. And 2 thirds of the council. That's interesting. There's a form of understanding the political world that is only with the people and always with the people. I have a custom with my little group of the party. All days, I have to go to the house of a citizen. And in this house that the citizen, the neighbor invite us, he invite their neighbors. And I have 2 meetings with about 25 or 30 persons a day. And I have the objective to meet 50 persons a day. Every day. It means 250 persons a week. That's amazing. 100 persons, 1000 persons a month. That is also done by the council members or just you as the mayor? Me and the council members of the party. And this seems that in a year, we meet with more than 11,000 people because the party give me one month of vacations. Or you get vacations. In this meeting, all days, we are discussing with people, political, philosophy, economy, issues and everything. Even general development of the city. If you can structure the cultural change by the top, by the base of the city. That's really amazing. This is the only way. You know, there's an idea today that the principal fight is in the media. And it's in the social networks. True. I think it's very wrong. Absolutely wrong. This fight is very important because the dominant class have these instruments to give the people their ideas. But Lenin used to say too that you must make the fight that you can win. True. So in the media fight, we are not going to win. So we can win. In the social networks, we can give important fights. But we are not going to win. In the only fight that you are going to win is staying all days with people. And that's where you are going to get protected also. Thank you, Daniel. I mean, it was lovely. I would have really loved to speak more, but you know, for the positive time. But it was really interesting to know what is happening in Latin America, one small city. I mean, your population, my population, quite similar by the way. I am also a population of 220,000. But of course, I am at an altitude of 8,000 feet above sea level. It's a very interesting thing that in Latin America, a lot of majors today are becoming to be presidential candidates. Okay. So I wish the same to you. Exactly. This kind of work in a little city makes us become that. Yes, yes. Great. Thank you so much. It was lovely talking to you. Yeah, that was lovely speaking to Daniel, who's a great friend and of course a great friend of the people, I must say. And you know, who really brought in the Linn's principles of how a fish lives in the sea. That's what Linn said. That's how we have to be. And, you know, also how the structures that we build for more participatory governance, both in the electoral terms as well as in party terms. I think it's been phenomenally, I mean, a kind of class for me, you know. I really learned a lot and perhaps friends in South Asia would also give a, will get a glimpse of what can be done and then I think what needs to be done. Thank you so much Daniel.